2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

[disha]

Now one of the products that we manufacture is fused silica based refractory, the raw material of which is impoted from China. Why? Because all Indian sourced fused silica raw materials do not match the quality standards that we need or require. These fused silica refractories are used in manufacturing, amongst other glass products, vials used to store vaccines. So we just cannot lower the quality in the name of Atmanirbhar Bharat or any other scheme.

Kamran, welcome aboard.

Just FYI, some members are veterans in many senses watching this space.

India had a thriving glass industry. However the socialist policies pursued from 1950s and still pursued in several states closed down the glass industry. For example, India still does *not* manufacture basic slides and coverslips used in labs across India. You have to think why!?

Quality sources can be developed only if the downstream (or upstream) industries like your fused silica based refractories are given proper support. And that requires

At the same time, one has to not go into blind import substitution. Goal should be to go for value substitution. The raw materials you mention if can be sourced from other nations as well, then it is perfectly fine to continue importing it as long as it is a feeder into a more value added product or service.

And only now, in the past few years due to Modi's Make-in-India, we are slowly getting there. You should look at the success story of PPE.

Remember, the Indian economy grows inspite of the government, not because of the government.

Nope. Indian economy is currently growing because of the government. Labour laws are being fixed. Bankruptcy code is fixed. Infrastructure (roads, ports, rails, electricity, water) being fixed.

[mappunni]

With regards to Indian exports, Why not start looking at little things which require little or no technical skills, going thru shelves of Lowe's or Home Depot, I see thousands of such products, why not Indian companies reach out to these companies and come up with a list what they supply at a competitive price to the Cheeni maal!!

[Ambar]

With regards to Indian exports, Why not start looking at little things which require little or no technical skills, going thru shelves of Lowe's or Home Depot, I see thousands of such products, why not Indian companies reach out to these companies and come up with a list what they supply at a competitive price to the Cheeni maal!!

Scalability. With scale comes competitive price. The scale of manufacturing China has demonstrated in the last 20 years is unprecedented , even US during its peak manufacturing years came nowhere close to China in scale and size. A couple of years ago i ordered a phone case from ebay for $2 including shipping. How they can produce, ship and make a profit at such prices i have no idea.

[arshyam]

A couple of years ago i ordered a phone case from ebay for $2 including shipping. How they can produce, ship and make a profit at such prices i have no idea.

Lack of labour protections, safety standards, environmental norms, PF, etc. Add indentured labour as well, perhaps. Basically, a sweat shop like setup. That's the only way they can keep costs so low. Yes, economy of scale helps, but in these items, it's the work environment where they can really save on cost and dump in other countries.

Before someone says that's a stereotype, let me posit that not all jobs in China are like that - they do have better jobs in a lot of areas, but just like their supply chain that supply super-high-end stuff as well as crappy crap, their job profiles are also similar. All those hand-held fans, or car stickers you see being sold at traffic junctions are examples of such crap produced by workers in crappy conditions.

[kvraghav]

Before we start predicting doomsday without China, We have to remember the problem US is now due to this manufacturing in china and they are now trying to protect what is left. They can at least print dollars to come out of this problem. Ten years on, people will start wondering why they loose jobs or why their kids are not getting jobs. This economic fall is happening and continue happening till we go back to third world status. We do not have a core industry except IT and to build code industry is to ensure something like manufacturing and services will supplement the core industry like Agriculture, Housing etc. Philips was world number one in lighting but when i visited Japan, it was four. There were smaller companies which were loved by the country men and paid more to support them. S.Korea Hyundai cars were not match for TATA or Mahindra cars but look today. We should stop sometime else kids will suffer.

[Mollick.R]

A couple of years ago i ordered a phone case from ebay for $2 including shipping. How they can produce, ship and make a profit at such prices i have no idea.

Lack of labour protections, safety standards, environmental norms, PF, etc. Add indentured labour as well, perhaps. Basically, a sweat shop like setup. That's the only way they can keep costs so low. Yes, economy of scale helps, but in these items, it's the work environment where they can really save on cost and dump in other countries.

Before someone says that's a stereotype, let me posit that not all jobs in China are like that - they do have better jobs in a lot of areas, but just like their supply chain that supply super-high-end stuff as well as crappy crap, their job profiles are also similar. All those hand-held fans, or car stickers you see being sold at traffic junctions are examples of such crap produced by workers in crappy conditions.

Most important ones are:-

1. Easy access to land to setup factories , in SEZ form or Industrial Park kinda setup where water, sewerage, transportation
link to nearest big city hub is easily available.

2. Cheap and quality power (uninterrupted & without voltage fluctuations).

3. Accesses to easy finance by Chinese state run banks at much much lower rates then what we get in Desh.

4. Protection of domestic market share from foreign companies in form of CCP promoted coercive business tactics & non
trade barriers. One can go for a full fledged attack only when your flanks & rear are protected.

[Suraj]

Here's my perspective on the topic of banning Chinese goods import:

The current circumstances are a result of essentially poor management of policymaking when it comes to domestic manufacturing. There are literally dozens of reasons, ranging from lack of regard for the impact of unconstrained imports of finished goods as well as high value add intermediates (whether it's glass silicates or medical APIs), to lack of impetus and encouragement to the domestic industry, to lack of infrastructural support to the manufacturing economy.

Many of these have been fixed over the years, but at this point, the question is largely about how to revive or resurrect industries that have collapsed due to 5-10 years of sustained pressure from Chinese imports. In my opinion, bans - like in the hands of a forum mod - are not always the most useful tools.

There's a reference to China having had 40 years to build up its manufacturing engine, but it neglects to mention one fundamental basis of Chinese prowess - an unrelenting requirement to transfer technology and IP, with a domestic regime that willfully duplicated and implemented it at scale. In my opinion, sure Chinese trinklets can be banned (we don't need Chinese made fireworks and saris).

However, in higher value - e.g. mobile or glass or pharma, corporate law must require without any exception, joint ventures with transfer of technology. They'll know exactly what we're doing - doing what they did to everyone else. This is not against WTO rules - it's been applied by China against everyone and their dog.

Chinese remember two things very keenly that we tend to forget:
1. Any framework that lets others export finished goods to us, or exports high value intermediaries that we cannot add further value to and export, drains our national wealth. India for 2000+ years was a trading nation that exported valuable goods and accumulated gold. The entire basis of colonialism was to reverse the drain of wealth to India and China.

Every single European company of the Age of Discovery was an 'East India Company', or someone trying to do China business. The native of the entire western hemisphere are mis-named 'Indians' because thats where they Europeans thought they finally arrived. The first thing the British did when gaining an economic foothold, was to destroy Indian production base, and switch it to extraction and export of raw material, with imports of finished British goods.

They say Britain brought railways to India. Automobiles to India. This is all true - very literally - they extracted wealth to from India and exported their finished trains and cars to India. Of the nearly 30000 locomotives in service in India at the turn of WW2, about 350 were Indian made. The rest are imported. Paid for with wealth extracted from India. Wealth generated not from high value production, but from low value farming and resource extraction. Same for cars - no cars were made in India until the mid 1940s - every last one of them was paid for with wealth extracted from the country. Indian "value add" was to have Indian coolies carry British made rails, install them and let British made trains run on it.

Tl;dr: never run a policy framework where you're letting finished goods in and exporting intermediaries. If you want to let someone sell finished items, he's going to have his crown jewels extracted from him by us.

2. The acquisition and mastery of high technology by any means fair or foul, is a national imperative. The first casualty of conquest is the losers technological base. The current IP regime is not a fair equitable system - it's a system intended to preserve the gains the west obtained by whatever means suited them before they imposed restrictions. The Chinese are acutely aware of this. It's not that they don't care about IP. They don't respect other's IP when they want it. When they have a base of IP, they'll do exactly what the west does. They have no record of dealing with anyone who compulsively extracts their IP from them and hangs them out to dry afterwards. Doing so should be an unstated centerpiece of Indian economic policy with respect to China. It should be open, in your face, without apology, and there's nothing they can do about it, because they'll never get any sympathy from any quarter, having done exactly the same to everyone else in the past.

[Ambar]

Good post Suraj !

Maybe move this to the 'Indian Economy' thread ? After a significant decline in capital goods imports between 2014 and 2016, we once again started climbing up from 2nd half of 2016. The drop in the CG imports in the last few quarters probably indicates a global slowdown. While we are all in agreement that outright banning all Chinese imports is impractical and simply not feasible, even if there are 20% of capital goods that can be procured locally by discouraging imports through duties then it will help both the domestic manufacturers and our ever under pressure rupee.

[darshan]

LG, HTC, ASUS declining brands can help take on Chinese phones in India in combination with Samsung. Cheap Android phones with unlocked bootloaders would help drive software side in India. Though this would require a nudge from Indian, Korean, Japanese, and Taiwanese govts. Adding Japan as companies like murata provide lot of modules.

[chetak]

padmaja joshi the anchor is acting so surprised as if she hasn't seen a single video of people being converted left, right and centre.

TIMES NOW@TimesNow
I accept that large scale conversion happens in Andhra Pradesh, but it happens in other states too: Raghu Ramakrishna Raju, MP, YSRCP tells Padmaja Joshi on
@thenewshour AGENDA. | #TirumalaTempleTargeted

10:20 PM · May 25, 2020


watch video:
https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/1264962176902500355

[Rony]

pagal qureshi .

"Modi’s Dravidian supremacist ideology". All the Tamil dravidianist gang , Kerala Commies proven wrong

Pakistan has consistently appealed to @UN & @OIC_OCI to condemn Modi’s Dravidian supremacist ideology with relentless Islamophobia & violence/regional instability perpetuated. We also welcome @antonioguterres agreement on need to counter Islamophobia & OIC-IPHRC’s earlier censure

https://twitter.com/SMQureshiPTI/status ... 31393?s=20

[Rony]

TIMES NOW@TimesNow
I accept that large scale conversion happens in Andhra Pradesh, but it happens in other states too: Raghu Ramakrishna Raju, MP, YSRCP tells Padmaja Joshi on
@thenewshour AGENDA. | #TirumalaTempleTargeted

10:20 PM · May 25, 2020
watch video:
https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/1264962176902500355

YSRCP MP unfortunately is right. Conversions did not became big with Jagan nor are they specific to AP. CBN did the same thing what Jagan is doing now from appeasing christian missionaries to appropriating TTD lands and funds.

[darshan]

I have always held a viewpoint that AP's IT work came with christian missionaries/US intel strings attached.

[SRoy]

I have always held a viewpoint that AP's IT work came with christian missionaries/US intel strings attached.

And same with TN.
Thanks for connecting the dots.

There are other states that provide equal number of (if not more) trained manpower.

[vimal]

https://www.cnbctv18.com/technology/pri ... 006331.htm

Government obliges privacy advocates; makes Aarogya Setu open source
Updated : May 26, 2020 08:56 PM IST

* Aarogya Setu open sources for the Android; plans to release the code for iOS and KaiOS soon.
* The first bug-bounty program in India announced to identify vulnerabilities.
* The source code is available on GitHub

I don't understand why this government gives in to such loony demands. Isn't opensourcing such a bad idea for such public service software? Next what, code for Tejas flight control system will be made public.

[ssundar]

https://www.cnbctv18.com/technology/pri ... 006331.htm
I don't understand why this government gives in to such loony demands. Isn't opensourcing such a bad idea for such public service software? Next what, code for Tejas flight control system will be made public.

Open-sourcing shouldn't be looked at in isolation. Arogya Setu requires people's confidence for it to be successful. These loonies can wreck that confidence. So, the potential downside of refusing to open source will be far higher than the risk due to open sourcing.

[Suraj]

Good post Suraj !

Maybe move this to the 'Indian Economy' thread ? After a significant decline in capital goods imports between 2014 and 2016, we once again started climbing up from 2nd half of 2016. The drop in the CG imports in the last few quarters probably indicates a global slowdown. While we are all in agreement that outright banning all Chinese imports is impractical and simply not feasible, even if there are 20% of capital goods that can be procured locally by discouraging imports through duties then it will help both the domestic manufacturers and our ever under pressure rupee.

I don't know about that. This particular topic is a little emotive, and such conversations become a moderation load in the economy thread when posters cannot post calmly.

It strikes me that people - even those in power implementing economic policy - don't quite understand how colonialism worked, and how to negate British arguments that India got a lot of material items out of it. We *paid* for it all - with the increasingly meager wealth extracted from low value add agriculture and low end production.

We worry more about physical colonialism of the past, and its legacies in the form of being constrained by post colonial global structures, whether cold war entities, pan global organizations like UN/UNSC or trade regimes like WTO. However, we forget that we were impoverished by decades of letting our technological base be eroded, not continuously acquiring the technologies of the industrial era, and not focusing on value addition. We went so far as to penalize profit-motive driven businesses in the process. The Chinese never forgot what brought them to their knees, which is why they are so blatant about grabbing technology and running a trade surplus. We used to do that - for 2000 years.

[darshan]

IIRC Chinese openly teach how they were wronged and need to get back to where they were.

Indians also paid through millions in lives without which many wars would not have been won.

[Skanda]

Arogya Setu requires people's confidence for it to be successful. These loonies can wreck that confidence. So, the potential downside of refusing to open source will be far higher than the risk due to open sourcing.

The call to open source the app was never about individual safety or security concerns. It was about saying "Modi bad". Now that app is open-source, I wonder how many of these privacy experts will deep dive through the code and list all security/privacy flaws that this app exposed/lacked. By making the app, open-source, a precedence has been set. There will be calls for this to happen in the future too, for other apps.

The left has declared victory and they will move on to the next thing that they can oppose. Opposition to any or all govt led initiatives itself has become the end-goal here. Privacy or safety concerns is a fig-leaf.

[vijayk]

I have always held a viewpoint that AP's IT work came with christian missionaries/US intel strings attached.

In early 1980s when I was living in East Godavari district, all the colonies IG built for Dalits were all converted way before IT work came. IT came late 90s. I used to go a friend's place. The whole colony was converted. The problem was AP idiots were busy with kamma vs non-kamma or reddy vs non-reddy or Andhra vs Telangana. RSS was no where in the picture

[Suraj]

IIRC Chinese openly teach how they were wronged and need to get back to where they were.

Indians also paid through millions in lives without which many wars would not have been won.

The lack of understanding of the economic dynamics of colonialism bothers me because we continue to make the same mistakes of a lopsided economic structure that favours a colonial extractive regime more than a nation attempting to restore itself to its past standing. It's why I tried to explain this here.

There are a large number of clueless people who readily nod along when the British argue that railways and roads and cars were good things they did in India. A suitably well informed populace would collectively at that. We basically handed out a lot of our accumulated wealth in exchange for depreciating liabilities. One gets rich by doing the opposite - producing those things and accumulating the wealth from that effort.

That's why I argued that the centerpiece of Indian economic policy with respect to China should focus on extracting their technology by required JV, then replace them with domestic manufacturers who took that technology, while the Chinese themselves are then blocked using non-tariff barriers. Hard to do with the whole world, but much easier to do to China because no one will come to their defense.

[sudarshan]

The lack of understanding of the economic dynamics of colonialism bothers me because we continue to make the same mistakes of a lopsided economic structure that favours a colonial extractive regime more than a nation attempting to restore itself to its past standing. It's why I tried to explain this here.

There are a large number of clueless people who readily nod along when the British argue that railways and roads and cars were good things they did in India. A suitably well informed populace would collectively at that. We basically handed out a lot of our accumulated wealth in exchange for depreciating liabilities. One gets rich by doing the opposite - producing those things and accumulating the wealth from that effort.

That's why I argued that the centerpiece of Indian economic policy with respect to China should focus on extracting their technology by required JV, then replace them with domestic manufacturers who took that technology, while the Chinese themselves are then blocked using non-tariff barriers. Hard to do with the whole world, but much easier to do to China because no one will come to their defense.

Fascinating - never thought of it that way before, because a. being brainwashed, and b. not being an economist. Although - I plan to rectify shortcoming b. in a few years' time, by setting up shop as an economist, with gyan gleaned from BRF threads. The main economic principle I need to figure out for that undertaking, is how to make money from it .

But a couple of comments and questions.

* This is of course the textbook definition of colonialism - being exploited for raw materials and labor (which the colonizing country lacks), so that the colonizer can build up its manufacturing base - and then foist the finished goods on a captive market (the colonized). So the mechanism was clear all along, just lack of education, coupled with active brainwashing, preventing Indians from seeing it.

* Does this mean that Modi does get this, with his emphasis on "Make in India?"

* What is wrong with the argument (playing Devil's advocate) that "so you paid for the railways, good for you, but we did build them and sell them to you, so good for us?" Is it just the first point above, or is there more?

* Point 1 above being what it is - is there some simple analogy, that would really drive it home, to somebody struggling to understand the dynamics of impoverishment of India here? There's a reason I ask this.

[ShyamSP]

I have always held a viewpoint that AP's IT work came with christian missionaries/US intel strings attached.

In early 1980s when I was living in East Godavari district, all the colonies IG built for Dalits were all converted way before IT work came. IT came late 90s. I used to go a friend's place. The whole colony was converted. The problem was AP idiots were busy with kamma vs non-kamma or reddy vs non-reddy or Andhra vs Telangana. RSS was no where in the picture

Also in YSR era they went further consolidating EJ activities and money and made it a family business also. There was an explosive growth of churches during his time. Now YCP government gives 5000 rs for pastors counting 30K or so in essence actively promoting conversions. Some posters here should shed their perverted understanding saying TDP did it.

A village I know has 5-6 churches, any hall/house with a cross is a church and 2 temples. 5-6 pastors get government money but none of Poojaris get any money as they work part-time there.

[Suraj]

* What is wrong with the argument (playing Devil's advocate) that "so you paid for the railways, good for you, but we did build them and sell them to you, so good for us?" Is it just the first point above, or is there more?

* Point 1 above being what it is - is there some simple analogy, that would really drive it home, to somebody struggling to understand the dynamics of impoverishment of India here?

It wasn't a transaction, that's why. We didn't ask to buy it and pay for it. They were built locally and paid for with extracted wealth and used to extract their colonies. Most pre-independence railway routes in India have nothing to do with traffic requirements. They're built to connect their main garrisons, and to connect sources of raw material to ports. This is particularly prominent in Africa, where effectively all colonial transport networks are 'ship raw material out' ones, since different parts were ruled by different countries.

Access to the new industrial technologies were strictly controlled. The Tatas for example could not open a steel mill, and once they finally did, the British would not buy the steel. Indian historical trade routes were blocked as the British and French controlled the Suez and land routes. Indian manufacturing facilities were targeted for destruction (the folk anecdotes of expert weavers having their hands cut off, literally or otherwise), and mercantile policy enforcing the modified economic structure. The pre-existing system of vast skills and craftsmanship training has now disappeared.

It is impossible to claim that India 'could not' perform manufacture. Within 5 years of independence, India was producing locomotives, automobiles, and more. A country that 'did not have the skilled base for manufacture' would not have managed to rapidly build up basic heavy industry in such a short time. However, the time value of money is a factor here. What we could only do after 1947, we could have done in 1897, or earlier, but we were forbidden from doing so. The cost of that is in trillions of dollars.

For two millenia, India and China fed the middle east and Europe with goods they wanted and willingly paid for, even if it cost them a drain of wealth. It may have been unsustainable (and it led to colonialism to attempt to reverse it), but nevertheless it was a transaction and not forced. Neither India nor China had much say in their own industrial and trading relationships being kneecapped by the Europeans.

The Chinese to their credit never forgot the economic consequences and focused hard on reversing the economic unequal relationships of their past by being blatant cheats - which IMHO is justified on their part, while we seemingly focus more on geopolitical aspects without understanding that our own interests are not served by adhering to the dogma of rules over self interest, especially not economically. The Chinese behavior simply gives us the opportunity to do the same unto them, without anyone else complaining about it.

[chetak]

do the nepalese PM and his ministers know what they are doing to India or are they operating in complete isolation.


After Souring Relations Through Border Dispute, Nepal Seeks Access To Indian Palm Oil, Tea Markets

[chetak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqaOrfPh5QM



NEPAL NOW REQUESTING INDIA | AFTER SOURING RELATIONS THROUGH BORDER DISPUTE | PALM OIL ILLEGAL TRADE

[sudarshan]

...

Thanks for the response. Probably OT here, so I'll stop with this.

What I got out of that was (also filling in some details from what I've known and observed):

* The railways weren't something that Indians had a choice in "buying"
* They weren't even particularly (or at all) useful for Indians, being primarily meant for troop and goods (loot) movement
* Passenger traffic did exist, but was restricted to the British, and to those sections of Indian society which were in favor with the British
* There are anecdotes of folks like Swami Vivekananda and Subramaniam Chandrashekar traveling by train pre-independence, but this was rare(?)
* Common folk had little chance of getting on a train and traveling to a destination of their choice, in fact, for most of the population, horse or ox cart was the limit of speed and comfort as far as travel went, all the way even to the 1980s
* The main issue was the destruction of manufacturing capability (the famous line about India importing needles and safety pins in 1947)
* The way to prosperity is (was, certainly, even if it is to some extent no longer so) manufacturing and export of value-added goods, not raw materials (oil exports from the ME being a famous outlier - until demand drops or supply runs out)
* Revived manufacturing capability today is all good, but there was a mega opportunity cost - 50 to 100 years of missed opportunity, two to three generations of deprivation
* The line about Tatas not being allowed to manufacture steel was known to me (who was the guy who made the famous quote - "I'll eat every pound of steel they produce") but I wasn't aware that the British refused to buy Tata steel even when they were finally allowed to manufacture it (Hats Off to Tata for succeeding in spite of all that)

I can certainly use these bullet points, thanks again.

[Suraj]

You're welcome.

Although - I plan to rectify shortcoming b. in a few years' time, by setting up shop as an economist, with gyan gleaned from BRF threads. The main economic principle I need to figure out for that undertaking, is how to make money from it .

The sky is the limit, saar. If R.Guha can go from kirket book writer to 'imminent historian', you can go from BRF Oldie to eminent economist too.

[schinnas]

do the nepalese PM and his ministers know what they are doing to India or are they operating in complete isolation.


After Souring Relations Through Border Dispute, Nepal Seeks Access To Indian Palm Oil, Tea Markets

Nepal PM and ministers seem to be bumbling idiots and/or believe in taking India for granted. Until they rectify their maps it shouldn't be business as usual with them.

[darshan]

I have always held a viewpoint that AP's IT work came with christian missionaries/US intel strings attached.

In early 1980s when I was living in East Godavari district, all the colonies IG built for Dalits were all converted way before IT work came. IT came late 90s. I used to go a friend's place. The whole colony was converted. The problem was AP idiots were busy with kamma vs non-kamma or reddy vs non-reddy or Andhra vs Telangana. RSS was no where in the picture

That validates my point even further. Doesn't it? Foundation already built with traditional mini India ongoing with people fighting each other. I certainly would not choose any other setting to guarantee southern migration to north. I rather have northern migration to south where my EJ network is bearing fruits. If I'm US, then ongoing EJ hotbed areas would be my first preference. And, AP perfectly fit the bill. I certainly would not have made very well functioning Hindu society richer to forget about ever running EJ network down the road in such area. Or God forbid, start having my converted EJs going to this newly rich Hindu society that is functioning very well.

There's also angle towards providing funds to further conversions in already established areas. Based on that I would have also preferred to have any wealth from the US generating transactions in such areas to have local politicians look other way. Probably on the US side, it also made it easier to convince lot of law makers by dangling the carrot of systematic mass conversions.

[chetak]

KDR@KDRtweets
"In reality, the percentage of the Christian population in our state would be not less than 25%. But, on record it is actually less than 2.5%" Raghurama Krishna Raju, YSRCP MP.



watch video

https://twitter.com/KDRtweets/status/12 ... 6037423104

[Yagnasri]

The entire railway network has done for the benefit of colonial rulers. Indians were never allowed to invest in that. Plus people had to pay a huge amount for tickets and thereby cross-subsidise the goods transport which is just taking raw material to the UK.

[vishvak]

https://mobile.twitter.com/KDRtweets/st ... 6037423104

So that's about, out of approximately 5 crore people of AP, a reduction in Hindu population of 1.25 crore and same overall ie about negative 1.25% of hindu population.

Just off hand estimate 78.65% from 79.8% official.

[SBajwa]

Before we start predicting doomsday without China, We have to remember the problem US is now due to this manufacturing in china and they are now trying to protect what is left. They can at least print dollars to come out of this problem. Ten years on, people will start wondering why they loose jobs or why their kids are not getting jobs. This economic fall is happening and continue happening till we go back to third world status. We do not have a core industry except IT and to build code industry is to ensure something like manufacturing and services will supplement the core industry like Agriculture, Housing etc. Philips was world number one in lighting but when i visited Japan, it was four. There were smaller companies which were loved by the country men and paid more to support them. S.Korea Hyundai cars were not match for TATA or Mahindra cars but look today. We should stop sometime else kids will suffer.

Sir ji! There is no problem in US because of consumer manufacturing products shift to China. USA still manufactures capital goods. China is currently the sweat shop of the world., India could be next but mark me words!

India should make a huge push towards robotic manufacturing of consumer goods., otherwise all manufacturing jobs will come back to USA with robots making shoes, shirts, etc.

[chetak]

https://mobile.twitter.com/KDRtweets/st ... 6037423104

So that's about, out of approximately 5 crore people of AP, a reduction in Hindu population of 1.25 crore and same overall ie about negative 1.25% of hindu population.

Just off hand estimate 78.65% from 79.8% official.

this is just one state. There are many other states where the situation could be even worse than AP.


few months back in one of the Christian channels someone claimed that the andhra christian population is more than 30%, though in telangana it might be marginally less and the scary part is this menace is now growing relentlessly and is spreading nation wide.

MAH, jharkand, chattisgarh, TN, KAR, punjab etc are all affected.

[Suraj]

The entire railway network has done for the benefit of colonial rulers. Indians were never allowed to invest in that. Plus people had to pay a huge amount for tickets and thereby cross-subsidise the goods transport which is just taking raw material to the UK.

This is an argument that comes with a trap. Let me explain - the British, and westerners in general, at least benignly believe they tried to do good. They see the existence of material products within India as evidence that they brought the fruit of the industrial revolution to India, and that Indians should be grateful for that. The fact that we aren't is simply seen as our own problem, and our own lack of gratitude, that they cannot do anything about. It plays into their hands further, because it lets them keep the impression that they tried to do good but the natives aren't grateful for that. Those who are western supremacists love this argument. Even those benignly apologetic about colonialism cannot see what's so bad if India had such nice trains and cars. Same for Indians who see these things as the few positives of colonialism.

Here's why it's a bad thing: one gets POORER when they buy finished goods in exchange for their accumulated material wealth. Ever seen some pro sports player get richer by blowing their money on cars and other vanities ? It doesn't happen, because trains, cars and such things are not assets, but depreciating liabilities. Their highest value is when they are sold new, and the only party that gains is the seller, not the buyer. Except for rare exceptions of classic cars, you can't ever raise the value of a car once you drive it off the dealership lot. No one ever renovates a 10 year old Suzuki Alto and sells it for more than a new car. What they instead have is a rusted pile of junk.

Colonialism would have been a positive if the British invested in Tata Steel, or Walchandnagar Industries. But no, these entities were never to be fostered, and if they stayed alive, were shackled from ever being part of the British controlled world economy. Tata Steel produced the same amount of steel in 1904 as they did in 1947, approx 1MT (India currently produces 110MT a year, second to China, more than Japan, more than all of North America combined, and soon to exceed all of EU combined). Instead they preferred to sell finished items. That only ever benefits the seller and not the buyer, who's being explicitly impoverished. It was only during the middle of WW2 that Indian companies finally got to participate in global supply chains (e.g. Mahindra making Jeeps, a license they still hold), and by then independence was around the corner.

The argument 'but cars and trains were nice positives of of colonial era' is an argument that takes advantage of economic illiteracy. And the counterargument about racist British and high train ticket prices just leaves one open to the accusation of ingratitude. It's not necessary. Everyone implicitly understands that buying a lot of finished goods doesn't make them richer, because that shiny new car will be a rusted pile of junk in 20 years. That's literally what the British did:
* take ore (extract wealth),
* make cars in UK (add domestic economic value through skilled employment)
* sell cars to colony (extract wealth)
* sell maintenance items to colony (extract wealth)
* ship back rusted junk and recycle (business for British owned commercial shipping and steel companies)
* make cars in UK (add domestic economic value through skilled employment)
* sell cars to colony (extract wealth)
Where's the gain in this for the buyer or source of raw material ? There's none . Heck, the buyer doesn't even get to negotiate the price here. Where does he make the money to keep paying for that ? He taxes his own populace dry while they toil on the land because there's no industry and no capital investment in industry, both restricted.

So I don't like the argument about 'expensive tickets' and 'people kicked off trains'. Those are weak arguments, because they can just say "yeah well that wasn't us, that was 3 generations before. You still got nice trains and cars so be grateful!". Explain this basic economic lopsidedness to them, and the entire picture of extractiveness of colonialism becomes clear. All those "nice things we got from colonialism" were the biggest $$ sinks of wealth.

Yes, this is the same thing happening with Oppo etc .

[vijayk]

In early 1980s when I was living in East Godavari district, all the colonies IG built for Dalits were all converted way before IT work came. IT came late 90s. I used to go a friend's place. The whole colony was converted. The problem was AP idiots were busy with kamma vs non-kamma or reddy vs non-reddy or Andhra vs Telangana. RSS was no where in the picture

That validates my point even further. Doesn't it? Foundation already built with traditional mini India ongoing with people fighting each other. I certainly would not choose any other setting to guarantee southern migration to north. I rather have northern migration to south where my EJ network is bearing fruits. If I'm US, then ongoing EJ hotbed areas would be my first preference. And, AP perfectly fit the bill. I certainly would not have made very well functioning Hindu society richer to forget about ever running EJ network down the road in such area. Or God forbid, start having my converted EJs going to this newly rich Hindu society that is functioning very well.

There's also angle towards providing funds to further conversions in already established areas. Based on that I would have also preferred to have any wealth from the US generating transactions in such areas to have local politicians look other way. Probably on the US side, it also made it easier to convince lot of law makers by dangling the carrot of systematic mass conversions.

True ...

With all IG did for Dalits, CON party was only interested in cashing it for the dynasty. They did not care for anything. With corruption charges, CON party was busy mollifying left with USSR support and handed them all academic institutes. Those losers were busy abusing India, Hindus 24x7 while missionaries were sowing crops in the ignorance and bigotry of few upper casteists while CON party had no national strategy. only looting ...

RSS was no where except in K'taka. This helped them to identify the perfect places: AP and TN.

Even now there is no realization. They are getting it slowly. Even CON/Jagan hardest supporters in AP are seeing what is happening. The problem is TDP and their supporters. They are fanatic and mad even now. Propaganda and lies have taken so much hold on their brains that they can't see anything. They make it easier for Jagan by diverting all blame on Modi with their lies on EVM, no funds for state ...

[chetak]

nephew following his uncle pappu's footsteps.

kid can't even tweet straight.

looking at all the ladies following them, the grandson seems to have got his eyetalian grandmother's gender right though

[Karan M]

Another savior out to civilize us.

[Krita]

nephew following his uncle pappu's footsteps.

kid can't even tweet straight.

looking at all the ladies following them, the grandson seems to have got his eyetalian grandmother's gender right though

Evolution and Karma has taken a toll on the IQ of Antonio's offsprings litter.
The fifth generation will make Pappu and Pinky look intelligent.