India Border Watch: Security and Operations

[Rakesh]

Baba Banaras-ji is in excellent form

[ArjunPandit]

baba is wrong it might be world +1 country

[CalvinH]

Equipment aside IA should start acclimatizing large number of soldiers at some other place with same altitude for large scale lift and shift.

[chetak]

^ all these facts collected here and read; gives ammunition to fight not only shukla but other leftist media crusaders too.

Sonia Trikha is his second wife.

earlier, this guy shukla was married to menaka gandhi's sister

so, shukla is darbari and has strong longtime congi connections

Chayan Chatterjee@Satyanewshi·May 24
Bhagoda Ajay Shukla has very close links with #CCP
his wife Sonia Trikha Shukla Fellow at the Institute of Chinese Studies. (read Confucius Institute ) at Jindal school of Communication Ajai Shukla is the brother in law of Suman Dubey prime accused in the National Herald case.

[chetak]

Our man has now increased the Chini force level to 10K. The goras are now very "concerned".

Looks like someone has been reading my suggestion to add masala and increase the count to 10K

Now our media will make more noise and hope the US ambassador in Delhi is watching the news. Few words from Trump about evil commies attacking "the free world" countries would spice up things.

We would be all set for being the victim, who has full right of self defence.

3000+ KM of LAC. Lot of places for India to improve it's "perception".

on may 23, a retired Indian Lt Col came up with a sensational lie of 5000 Chinese troops having entered Indian side of the LAC in Ladakh. Now this Colonel is a known stooge of the family and has been associated with a news channel being investigated for money laundering.

UTKARSH KUMAR SHAHI@ukshahi·May 24
The new road India has built along the Shyok River to Daulet Beg Oldi (DBO) - the remotest and the most vulnerable area along the LAC at Ladakh has really spooked the PRC and made them profoundly upset.
That's why they have again turned to their old allies - the enemies within.

[chetak]

no wonder the hans are stressed out and xi is in a panic.

Nitin A. Gokhale@nitingokhale·12h
Many things have changed in Ladakh now: Roads have improved; There are more troops deployed; airstrip in DBO is now active and more importantly, there is an armoured brigade stationed in high altitude. In short, Indian military is no pushover

[chetak]

Advisers and some members of the family and its political party are so beholden to the PRC that a few days back when one of their senior leaders questioned the PRC, he was forced to delete the tweet.

UTKARSH KUMAR SHAHI@ukshahi · May 24
The evening of July 8, 2017. Doklam stand-off was at its peak. A senior opposition leader of India had met Chinese envoy for a private dinner.
This leader had visited Chinese Embassy in Delhi on Jan 19th, 2017 too.
He met Chinese envoy with his sister & BIL in April 2017 too.

[chetak]

UTKARSH KUMAR SHAHI @ukshahi·May 24
Across the Zoji La, the Border Roads Organization has already built shining new black tar roads all along the Himayalan borderland, linking remotest military outposts along the LOC in the western sector and the LAC facing Chinese occupied Aksai Chin where our troops are deployed.

[Deans]

^ all these facts collected here and read; gives ammunition to fight not only shukla but other leftist media crusaders too.

Sonia Trikha is his second wife.

earlier, this guy shukla was married to menaka gandhi's sister

so, shukla is darbari and has strong longtime congi connections

His Congi connections are well known and he is despised among the few former senior Army guys I interact with.

[Deans]

Equipment aside IA should start acclimatizing large number of soldiers at some other place with same altitude for large scale lift and shift.

Apart from 3rd Infantry division at Leh, we have 8 Mountain division at Dras and 17 Mountain handling North Sikkim, both of which are at altitudes above 10,000 Ft and can be fairly quickly moved as they are in quieter sectors and can in turn be reinforced by mountain divisions in the plains.
Its more important to permanently station more artillery and mechanised forces there.

[khan]

IMO, if there is a serious threat (or intel) of a 2 front situation developing, India should preemptively do a 2 week war with Pakistan & degrade them. It will take the Chinese at least 2 weeks to get their military turned Westward. There is no need to to be chivalrous here - just do what is needed.

[bkswarti]

History tends to repeat itself. I see that people in this thread once again counting out China to be aggressive, and counting out Pakistan.

Please feel free to read what happened in 1962. China caught us by surprise even though the gradually escalated in the same manner they are now but we still ignored all the warnings. And Pakistan tried to pounce in later in 1965.

Let’s face the reality; our army is in a dire need of modernization.

Our airforce has what? 32 squadrons? No way will we get air superiority.

[Yagnasri]

If there is a two-front war on India I do not expect US to keep quiet. Plus we gamed this quite well and even the recent IAF exercises aimed at testing preparedness etc of a two-front war. In fact, we are talking about a two and half front war with serious internal backstabbing activities.

[Mort Walker]

If there is a two-front war on India I do not expect US to keep quiet. Plus we gamed this quite well and even the recent IAF exercises aimed at testing preparedness etc of a two-front war. In fact, we are talking about a two and half front war with serious internal backstabbing activities.

Unlike 1962, where the US actually helped India with C-130 aircraft and supplies, there will be no such thing this time around. Further, after the opposition in the US comes in power, they will sanction India severely taking sides with China and Pakistan.

India has neglected its armed forces and modernization by starving the forces of funds - particularly when domestic weapon systems are now available. This has been a pattern of both governments on the left and right citing budget control issues. If that is indeed the concern, then no reason to put the forces in harm's way and ruin their morale. There is the urgent need for talks with both China and Pakistan.

[Yagnasri]

India in 2020 is not India in 1962 and the leadership of armed forces and the nation in 2020 is not the same as in 1962. While I agree that there are serious issues in our budget and capital acquisition etc, we are much better than in 1962. Further, we are not going to be surprised like we did in 1962.

Let us not have dhothi shivers.

[Roop]

They have the superior equipped military which doesn't amount to a whole of lot of beans when it comes to actual fighting.

I agree with this statement, but it doesn't address the question of why they scuffle with Indian soldiers using only sticks & stones & fisticuffs -- why no firearms? The real reason is in your next statement:

They know that too which is why they haven't gone to war in four decades. Keeping things to sticks and stones lowers the chance of things turning kinetic.

Exactly; and that is IMO a decision taken by both sides, right up to very senior levels of the army (and probably civilian political leaders). No one wants an accidental outbreak of war. If war comes, it must be from a deliberate and carefully-considered decision.

They're buffaloes. A herbivorous species with scary looking weapons but still a cud-chewing plant eater nonetheless.

[Roop]

so, shukla is darbari and has strong longtime congi connections

Exactly. That is why I always assume that his articles/posts are lies and bullsh!t aimed at embarassing/attacking the BJP.

[Roop]

Further, after the opposition in the US comes in power, they will sanction India severely taking sides with China and Pakistan.

You are only partly right: the Dems are a bunch of Commie-loving scumbags, but they are not going to win the Presidency in 2020. God knows what will happen in 2024.

[Mort Walker]

India in 2020 is not India in 1962 and the leadership of armed forces and the nation in 2020 is not the same as in 1962. While I agree that there are serious issues in our budget and capital acquisition etc, we are much better than in 1962. Further, we are not going to be surprised like we did in 1962.

Let us not have dhothi shivers.

In 1962, China GDP = $47 billion and India $43 billion. Parity.
In 2020, China GDP = $27.3 trillion PPP and India $10.5 trillion PPP. Two to one advantage for China as they can muster more resources in a 3 week war. Further, India's economy has been severely degraded by COVID-19. Don't think Chinese actions are happening without them knowing all the facts.

There is a very good reason to dhothi shiver. India will get its arse kicked hard. 1962 was a Chinese victory and 2020 will be a Chinese victory.

[Mort Walker]

so, shukla is darbari and has strong longtime congi connections

Exactly. That is why I always assume that his articles/posts are lies and bullsh!t aimed at embarassing/attacking the BJP.

It is the job of the opposition to highlight weakness for national security improvements. We may agree their anti-national attitude on a whole host of domestic issues is traitorous, but on this issue they must highlight national weakness so people realize actual shortcomings and address them. The Modi government is not without fault on national defence.

[Manish_Sharma]

TWITTER

DrApr007

The way both armies have started the construction of bunkers along Indo-China border quickly, It seems LAC is not going to still be "scrimmage" type of border in future. It is going to be hot like LoC. Specially Ladakh,Sikkim & Arunachal Pradesh would be all time active like J&K.
https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/126 ... 84896?s=19
___________________

#BREAKING : Additional deployment done by IA in Harsil sector & few other areas along the Indo-China border in Uttarakhand & Himanchal Pradesh after increase activity of PLA seen other side of border.

Pending construction works have been started by BRO along LAC in Ladakh yday.
https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/126 ... 28416?s=19

[Deans]

IMO, if there is a serious threat (or intel) of a 2 front situation developing, India should preemptively do a 2 week war with Pakistan & degrade them. It will take the Chinese at least 2 weeks to get their military turned Westward. There is no need to to be chivalrous here - just do what is needed.

For the army, it does not matter much. If there is a war with China and none with Pakistan, very few units can move up to the Chinese border
(where existing China oriented divisions outnumber the PLA, even if half the PLA is mobilised and is deployed in Tibet).
Even if we wanted to, the width of the front and the terrain along the LAC precludes large scale troop deployment (over and above what is already allocated to a particular sector). However, given that IMO, China is a bigger threat, I'd like to see the army's deployment rejigged as follows:

- One of our artillery divisions moving to Ladakh (in winter, move it to Kashmir for cross LOC shelling).

- An extra division to handle the area south of Pangong Tso (Chushul - Demchok). It can be administratively under IX corps in Yol.
This can be formed by
- 1 mechanised brigade of the under formation 72nd Div of the MSC forms the core of this div.
- The XXXIII corps in Siliguri and IV corps in Tezpur both have 3 divisions, which is overkill for these sectors, particularly as there is insufficient
artillery for them. Both these corps can contribute a brigade to 72nd Div. The remaining 2 brigades of the division losing its brigade can be used
as the divisional reserve of the `forward' 2 divisions of the corps. Thus a corps with 2 forward and one reserve division, now has 2 forward
divisions each with a reserve brigade.

- We have an armoured brigade with XIV corps in Leh. In addition, one of our strike corps (possibly XXI corps in Bhopal which is increasingly looking
like a reserve formation) gives up a mechanised brigade. III corps in Dimapur gives up a mountain infantry brigade using the same principle
applied to XXXIII an IV corps earlier.
These 3 brigades - 1 armoured, 1 mech and 1 infantry can be formed into 2 integrated battle groups. to support 3rd infantry division in Ladakh

This from 1 division and 1 brigade in Ladakh facing the Chinese, we move to 4 divisions, its a tripling of manpower and a 5 fold increase in
firepower, without affecting our posture in the East or against Pakistan.

[chola]

India in 2020 is not India in 1962 and the leadership of armed forces and the nation in 2020 is not the same as in 1962. While I agree that there are serious issues in our budget and capital acquisition etc, we are much better than in 1962. Further, we are not going to be surprised like we did in 1962.

Let us not have dhothi shivers.

In 1962, China GDP = $47 billion and India $43 billion. Parity.
In 2020, China GDP = $27.3 trillion PPP and India $10.5 trillion PPP. Two to one advantage for China as they can muster more resources in a 3 week war. Further, India's economy has been severely degraded by COVID-19. Don't think Chinese actions are happening without them knowing all the facts.

There is a very good reason to dhothi shiver. India will get its arse kicked hard. 1962 was a Chinese victory and 2020 will be a Chinese victory.

2020 will be either an overwhelming Indian victory or nothing will happen like Doklam and my warmongering self will be disappointed again.

There are 250K Indians on the border versus three PLA brigades (between 4 to 7k each) in Tibet. In spite of kung fu, there is no way we can lose.

Unlike the "warrior-race" pakis, Cheen is a herbivorous race of rice eaters like ourselves. So it is a matter of 2.5 lakh of good Indian water buffalos versus at most 21K of the east asian kind. Our herd will steamroll theirs with complete certainty.

[Yagnasri]

There is a very good reason to dhothi shiver. India will get its arse kicked hard. 1962 was a Chinese victory and 2020 will be a Chinese victory.

If the GDP is the sole measure on which war is decided we would not have lost any war in the last 2000 years to tribal invaders and pirates. Vietnam would not have given a bloody nose to same China a few decades back and the US would have won the war against communists in Vietnam. USSR would have fallen by 1955 in a war with the US. Mongols would not have built worlds largest continuous land empire and defeated China so easily.

We are forgetting the same Indian army given sound thrashing to same China in 1967. Our people are trained well, being led well and have tools and geographical advantage to withstand any Chinese invasion and China knows this. True that we could have done much better in terms of equipment, but I do not agree that we will lose to China so easily.

[Manish_Sharma]

TWITTER

@SJha1618:

Good to see that the Government is now 'forthrightly naming China as the intruder' & is firm in demanding a 'restoration of the status quo'. A slap on the face of every politicized bot who thought all those saying the truth were 'lying'.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/126 ... 92416?s=19

[abhik]

Prepare for war’: China’s Xi Jinping tells army to thwart coronavirus impact on national security

Why don't we junk stupid concept of non alignment and sign a military deal with US to help during 2 front war? Just like indira gandhi did in 1971.

Because that would simply make too much sense. Most of BRF is of the opinion that we will be able to fend off China with just imported arms from tier-2/3 powers like France and Russia while keeping our much vaunted "independence". Unlike our wars in previous decades we wont be facing off another turd world nation but rather what is for all practical purposes a super power. We may be able to win a few battles with the tactical advantages we enjoy but how do we win the war against an opponent with a MIC that is half to 2 order of magnitude greater than us. If a full scale shooting war actually starts, IMO the first thing we will actually do run to Khan for help, we did that 62, and we'll be forced to do it now too.

[Manish_Sharma]

https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news ... ssion=true

Army Chief Naravane’s 2012 prophecy on Chinese strategy rings true in Ladakh sector

Given that India has been upgrading its infrastructure along the border with China since 2014, officials say some amount of border friction is going to be the reality of the day

Updated: May 25, 2020 22:01 IST

By Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times New Delhi

Back in the autumn of 2012, a senior faculty member at the Mhow-based Army War College published a paper on the China’s war zone campaign (WZC). Beijing would, the army officer argued, seek to coerce smaller adversaries into acceding to China’s demand through graded threat of force or actual use of force till its ends are met.

The officer, then Brigadier Manoj Mukund Naravane, wrote that the political objective of this Chinese concept is unveiled by “occupation of certain un-held tract of land or high value targets’. This would be done through elite forces.

The first would be the domination-cum-deterrence (DCD) phase where the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) would focus on building up its presence in the territory in question to deter the enemy. In the second phase, Gaining Initiative by Striking First (GISF), it would deploy rapid reaction units to strike first to wrest the initiative from the enemy. The last stage is the Quick Battle Quick Resolution where the PLA would use a dedicated division level force. But the PLA, the senior army officer said in his seminal paper published in Scholar Warrior, a journal published by the Delhi-based think tank Center For Land Warfare Studies, expects to achieve its objective in the first two phases.

As the Indian Army Chief now, General Manoj Mukund Naravane is faced with a WZC situation along the 3,488 kilometre long Line of Actual Control (LAC) with PLA opening multiple fronts in western and eastern sectors while the world including India battles the Covid-19 pandemic that has its origins in central China’s Wuhan city. The Chinese aggressive manoeuvres also entail the PLA moving support elements in depth areas of eastern Ladakh.

Although Gen Naravane didn’t refer to it in his 2012 paper, national security planners say the key to the Chinese WZC concept is deception coupled with state of the art intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities.

The top army officer was clear that the only way to counter the WZC strategy is to thwart Chinese designs in the initial two, DCD and GISF, stages.

Beijing did have the initial advantage when it moved soldiers to Galwan Valley and Pangong Tso in eastern Ladakh. The Chinese army had built roads right up to their claim line and could move in troops quickly, once it decided to activate them.

This advantage now stands neutralised with Indian force levels building up over the past weeks. The Indian Army is also staring at the aggressor with troops holding their positions and not allowing the Red Army to brow beat them at Galwan Valley and Pangong Tso.

Top government officials told Hindustan Times that the security establishment did realise that India’s northern borders would remain turbulent for some time to come after New Delhi decided to upgrade its border infrastructure in 2014.

For decades, India had been debating the extent and pace of creating border infrastructure along the Line of Actual Control with China. Beijing, meanwhile, kept building railway tracks and roads.

This meant that the Chinese PLA patrols along the border often went uncontested.

This started to change after India matching up the build up to a degree and earmarking its claim line through regular patrols. And this friction is expected to continue unless both sides exchange maps of their respective positions in both the eastern and the western sector.

The situation in the middle sector is far better after both sides exchanged maps in 2002. So both sides now know the exact disputed territory. The western sector maps were shared but never exchanged at the behest of Chinese; the eastern sector maps were not even shared.

While China openly covets Arunachal Pradesh as its territory, its long term game in eastern Ladakh could be to cut through Galwan-Murgo axis to provide an all weather alternative to the Karakoram highway, which enters Pakistan through Khunjerab Pass and not Karakoram pass north of Indian positions of Daulet Beg Oldi.

However, with the Indian Army digging into its positions to face the aggressor, the long drawn out mobilization may not work for the PLA as the law of diminishing returns comes into play like in the protracted 1979 Sino-Vietnam war. Status quo ante is the only viable option as it leaves both sides with a win-win situation.

[Mort Walker]

We are forgetting the same Indian army given sound thrashing to same China in 1967. Our people are trained well, being led well and have tools and geographical advantage to withstand any Chinese invasion and China knows this. True that we could have done much better in terms of equipment, but I do not agree that we will lose to China so easily.

In 1967, India did not gain any territory north of Sikkim in Tibet to make up for territory lost in 1962. In 2-3 weeks of a conflict, the IA and IAF will hold its own, after that the Chinese have an advantage. The 1962 war lasted a month and 1967 conflict was about a week. Without significant manufacturing base within India of weapon systems, India has a distinct disadvantage.

[Larry Walker]

One day all pushing and shoving and yelling and swearing and next day we have Chinese armored columns rolling into India and Chinese fighters bombing us and Chinese missles smashing into high-valua targets ?? This is beyond dhoti shivering.

[chetak]

There is a very good reason to dhothi shiver. India will get its arse kicked hard. 1962 was a Chinese victory and 2020 will be a Chinese victory.

If they had the b@!!$, they would have already done it by now.

After the 1962 debacle, the hans have watched, with increasing dismay, the rearming and build up of the IA, noted the successes and the increasing prowess of the IA against both the cheeni army as well as the paki army.

In fact, the two sound and successive thrashings of the cheeni army within a short space of time and in two places not very far apart from each other, ie Cho la and Nathu la has eroded the cheeni Army confidence. The younger hotheads may be spoiling for a fight but the older and wiser ones are not at all keen on tangling with the IA.

Gen Sagat Singh, on both occasions, taught them a lesson that they have not yet forgotten. In fact, this eroded confidence was the very reason that they did not enter the 1971 war when the pakis were desperately hoping that the cheeni would open a second front against India.

The PLA cannot so easily mass forces and cross into India in such hostile terrain and climatic conditions. Their navy, as well as the airforce, are practically unblooded.

Such an imbroglio would have severe economic, as well as, political/diplomatic and strategic repercussions globally, resulting in the realignment of international forces and markets leaving the hans isolated and their credibility as well as market access seriously defanged.

xi has got himself in a really messy situation.

[Larry Walker]

We are way deeper into testimonial shrivelling zone rather than dhoti shivering ... Time to get out bearings back and focus on the cat's paw. .. the Pakis

[Aditya_V]

How come Pakis are soo quite on LOC??

[nam]

Chinis are moving troops in to Tibet & Xinjang using civilian flights. Their Western HQ is in motion.

https://twitter.com/ThunderboltIND/stat ... 7468096512

[abhik]

....
2020 will be either an overwhelming Indian victory or nothing will happen like Doklam and my warmongering self will be disappointed again.

There are 250K Indians on the border versus three PLA brigades (between 4 to 7k each) in Tibet. In spite of kung fu, there is no way we can lose.

Unlike the "warrior-race" pakis, Cheen is a herbivorous race of rice eaters like ourselves. So it is a matter of 2.5 lakh of good Indian water buffalos versus at most 21K of the east asian kind. Our herd will steamroll theirs with complete certainty.

I hope we an up our game on analysis on BRF rather than drivel like this (Shiv, RV and others have posted some excellent stuff on the tactical situation). But on the other hand Chola saar is one of the few to post information on Chinese MIC, so there is not much I can say either .

[Mort Walker]

Chinis are moving troops in to Tibet & Xinjang using civilian flights. Their Western HQ is in motion.

https://twitter.com/ThunderboltIND/stat ... 7468096512

They're acclimating troops to high elevation and move them to the eastern sector to put pressure on India in Sikkim.

[chola]

....
2020 will be either an overwhelming Indian victory or nothing will happen like Doklam and my warmongering self will be disappointed again.

There are 250K Indians on the border versus three PLA brigades (between 4 to 7k each) in Tibet. In spite of kung fu, there is no way we can lose.

Unlike the "warrior-race" pakis, Cheen is a herbivorous race of rice eaters like ourselves. So it is a matter of 2.5 lakh of good Indian water buffalos versus at most 21K of the east asian kind. Our herd will steamroll theirs with complete certainty.

I hope we an up our game on analysis on BRF rather than drivel like this (Shiv, RV and others have posted some excellent stuff on the tactical situation). But on the other hand Chola saar is one of the few to post information on Chinese MIC, so there is not much I can say either .

Saar, I give good numbers on our actual situation on chini borders. And I gave good numbers during Doklam.

In all seriousness, it comes down to hard tacks numbers. Forget all the other mumble jumble because in our case the numbers are overwhelming.

We have 250K troops on the border with Cheen and the chinis have 3 brigades in Tibet. NOTHING can offset a numbers advantage that large.

If and when we decide to fight, it will be a foregone conclusion.

In all seriousness.

[chola]

Chinis are moving troops in to Tibet & Xinjang using civilian flights. Their Western HQ is in motion.

https://twitter.com/ThunderboltIND/stat ... 7468096512

They're acclimating troops to high elevation and move them to the eastern sector to put pressure on India in Sikkim.

A foregone conclusion unless we wait and sit around on our arses until the PLA builds up numbers.

[Mort Walker]

A foregone conclusion unless we wait and sit around on our arses until the PLA builds up numbers.

The PLA has 5 armies in its Western Theater of Operations. Each army is corps sized with at least 30K in each.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Force.png

The 77th Army, formerly the 13th Army is being moved by the PLA to Lhasa.

[RajaRudra]

They're acclimating troops to high elevation and move them to the eastern sector to put pressure on India in Sikkim.

A foregone conclusion unless we wait and sit around on our arses until the PLA builds up numbers.

Yep, China is preparing for a long fight across multiple fronts in LAC to make it more advantageous for them and accordingly preparing for it. We should not be waiting for them to finish the preparation. Better to provoke them for a small skirmishes when they are not fully ready and make them come to table with us having gained some tactical gains(re claim).

[Mort Walker]

^^^Nope. India will be seen as the aggressor. PLA will move significant men and material into Tibet and destroy Indian positions and infrastructure, then pull back. India will be unable to launch any counter offensive.