Indian Military Helicopters

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ramana
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by ramana »

Is the NUH NQSR published?
ramana
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by ramana »

What is the size of the helicopter hangar on IN ships?
How many ships have this?
basant
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by basant »

ramana wrote:Is the NUH NQSR published?
RFP is available for NUH. NSQR, I don't know.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Prem Kumar »

A great opinion piece posted by WingCo Bhambhani - an ALH/LUH test pilot deputed to HAL from the IAF.

He doesn't mince words when he says that the Navy's NUH specs are intentionally designed to keep ALH/LUH out. Balanced article, that says both the Navy and HAL must set aside past differences and sit down to work things out.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/06 ... -says.html
ramana
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by ramana »

Basant, Thanks for the RFP. Very interesting requirement. And concept of operations.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by srai »

basant wrote:
ramana wrote:Is the NUH NQSR published?
RFP is available for NUH. NSQR, I don't know.
It’s obvious the IN is looking for a “foreign OEM”.

If only the IN, HAL, DRDO, GoI and private sector were able to work together over the last 15+ years, this import wouldn’t have been necessary. IMO
ramana
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by ramana »

Srai, Let's see how it plays out. Trust NaMo.
sankum
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by sankum »

You just loose faith in such selection of imports where RFP and SP model are just cover to get a preselected one and HAL chairman is openly saying it.
Pilatus ,Embraer and VVIP helo were as such where kickbacks were paid and got caught.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/06 ... -navy.html
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by pandyan »

CDS also mentioned that services should not exaggerate requirements. the unique challenges and constraints of operating from a ship are interesting engineering problems for young HAL engineers to take head-on and with determination.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by ashishvikas »

basant
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by basant »

I am confused with the statement made by the HAL CMD.
Providing the first concrete timeline to HAL’s promise on the Dhruv, Madhavan has told Livefist, “I can categorically say that the Dhruv will meet all requirements of the navy. Within 24-36 months from the time an order is placed, we will develop and deliver the product. Our rate of production is also far higher. So project time will be much shorter than what the navy has envisaged in its request for quotation.”
So does HAL want modification of NUH RFQ/RFI or says will match it if is allowed to participate?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by srin »

The NUH RFI requires the AUW to be around 5t. The Dhruv is around 5.5t. So can't make the cut.
basant
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by basant »

srin wrote:The NUH RFI requires the AUW to be around 5t. The Dhruv is around 5.5t. So can't make the cut.
If you see the CMD's interview, he 'categorically' said HAL will meet all requirements.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by abhik »

The requirements need to be more of, as they say, "I want to cross the river" rather than "build me a bridge" - or the specifications can narrow down the so the outcome will be predetermined.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by anupamd »

1st Contract Finally In Sight For India's Own Attack Helicopter https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/06 ... opter.html
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Hari Nair »

anupamd wrote:1st Contract Finally In Sight For India's Own Attack Helicopter https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/06 ... opter.html
Finally! If we had, as a nation enabled this contract 16-18 months ago - we would have had at least 7-8 LCHs inducted and perhaps available for operations at DBO!
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by ashishvikas »

^^We always prepare for last conflicts & Wars.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by abhik »

We are now awaiting financial sanction. By the end of this year, we should see the initial order for 15 aircraft.
Don't count your chickens saars, this almost done business has been going on for quit some time (for Tejas Mk1A etc and others), we can celebrate only after the deal is actually signed.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by gunnvant »

I think LCH is in air. Night flying trials?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by nachiket »

Hari Nair wrote:
anupamd wrote:1st Contract Finally In Sight For India's Own Attack Helicopter https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/06 ... opter.html
Finally! If we had, as a nation enabled this contract 16-18 months ago - we would have had at least 7-8 LCHs inducted and perhaps available for operations at DBO!
Sir, has HELINA finished integration with LCH, dev and user trials and is it ready for production? The report doesn't make it clear.
nachiket
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by nachiket »

It has taken four years since the MoD clearing acquisition for the price negotiations to complete. Price negotiations for a contract where for all practical purposes, money will be transferred from one govt. department to another. Let that sink in. This is downright criminal behavior. It is because of these geniuses that if the balloon goes up in Ladakh during the current confrontations, the IA will not have access to what could have been an extremely effective asset to counter the Chinese Armored and Mechanized forces being built up.

And yes, shame on the government too for allowing this state of affairs to continue. You can't aim to be strong on Natl security on the one hand and then allow this on the other.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by ashishvikas »

Price negotiation has taken 4 years for 15 LCH OR all 165 ?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Kartik »

Some great shots of the LUH from Livefist's article
Indo Russian light copter overdue; India's own speeds up

One of the prototypes ZG-4620 has modified skids. Not sure why.

Open the images in a new window to see full size.
Image

Image

Image
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Shameek »

These would make great police or air ambulance helicopters for crowded cities and states. We have not really had that in India, but with the Kerala police renting a chopper, maybe its a start.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Indranil »

Kartik,

It's just not skids, look carefully.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by sankum »

It's on tail also.


Harsh Vardhan Thakur
@hvtiaf
Replying to
@KSingh_1469
yes. the fairings reduce vortices.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by SourabhK »

Indranil wrote:Kartik,

It's just not skids, look carefully.
Is there an IRST over the nose I can see?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by srin »

Btw, I hadn't noticed the difference in the tail between Dhruv and LUH till now. Interesting.

The horizontal stabilizer on the Dhruv is right on the tai, whereas it has moved ahead in the LUH (similar to Chetak). This provides space for the tail rotor to be below at the tail level in the LUH (again similar to Chetak), instead of higher as in Dhruv.

Can the gurus shed light on the pros and cons of the two approaches ?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Kartik »

sankum wrote:It's on tail also.


Harsh Vardhan Thakur
@hvtiaf
Replying to
@KSingh_1469
yes. the fairings reduce vortices.
Ah thanks, that explains it. So we'll likely see it in the production variants too.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by sankum »

It was in response to question below Production varients will carry the modifications.


@KSingh_1469
and
@hvtiaf
+
@hvtiaf
it looks like TD1 has some modifications to the skids? Is this something HAL is just testing out? Is this expected to be part of the series production aircraft?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Mollick.R »

Kartik wrote:Some great shots of the LUH from Livefist's article

Image
The camouflage pattern ( pattern location , pattern shape & size) is ditto on all 3 Helis, albeit colour scheme is different :!:

Is it a decision by choice or HAL is yet to focus on those minute stuffs. :?:
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by KSingh »

basant wrote:I am confused with the statement made by the HAL CMD.
Providing the first concrete timeline to HAL’s promise on the Dhruv, Madhavan has told Livefist, “I can categorically say that the Dhruv will meet all requirements of the navy. Within 24-36 months from the time an order is placed, we will develop and deliver the product. Our rate of production is also far higher. So project time will be much shorter than what the navy has envisaged in its request for quotation.”
So does HAL want modification of NUH RFQ/RFI or says will match it if is allowed to participate?
Most worrying part of the CMD’s comments were about IMRH imo. He said that the navy is unlikely to be a customer for it, or at least that’s what I took from his comments. Given that we know HAL already has a separate design for the N-IMRH that has been based on navy inputs (it will be 10t instead of the IAF/IA aversions that will be 12-13 ton) and that the navy can work with HAL from outset I cannot fathom why N-IMRH won’t be accepted by them. This is looking like it could be another ALH/NUH debacle in 8-10 years from now.

IA/IAF seem happy to work with HAL (to an extent)- see ALH/LCH/LUH but the so-called “builders navy” always wants to play foul, all this because of a bad experience 20+ years back?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by basant »

If you recollect the interviews on Livefist, IN does operate ALH Mk3 (Maldives). So not sure what their problem is. Could be issues with automated blade-folding and HAL doesn't seem to be too upset about IN not going with IMRH. It's okay to go ahead with a proper solution instead of 'will get it done eventually' given the decade and half lost and given the current scenario. I believe, unlike IA and IAF, IN did not have the requirement of many ALHs, so in a way it is understandable that Mk1 still rankles them. Bad leadership somewhere, I guess. Unlike TEDBF to replace Mig-29Ks only after 15 years or so they are in a hurry, understandably.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by KSingh »

basant wrote:If you recollect the interviews on Livefist, IN does operate ALH Mk3 (Maldives). So not sure what their problem is. Could be issues with automated blade-folding and HAL doesn't seem to be too upset about IN not going with IMRH. It's okay to go ahead with a proper solution instead of 'will get it done eventually' given the decade and half lost and given the current scenario. I believe, unlike IA and IAF, IN did not have the requirement of many ALHs, so in a way it is understandable that Mk1 still rankles them. Bad leadership somewhere, I guess. Unlike TEDBF to replace Mig-29Ks only after 15 years or so they are in a hurry, understandably.
123 NMRH will cost $7-10 BILLION USD, this is a huge opportunity to forgo and I still can’t understand why. The navy can work with HAL to get exactly what they want.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by basant »

KSingh wrote:123 NMRH will cost $7-10 BILLION USD, this is a huge opportunity to forgo and I still can’t understand why. The navy can work with HAL to get exactly what they want.
There is no necessity for pyrrhic victory in making a helo after its too late. There are no second bests in wars. We need them today and we don't even have final designs. There are those weapon systems that we can afford to wait, and there are those that you can't. By the time IMRH will get IOC/FOC, China may actually be ready with 2 more a/c carriers!

We have limited resources and, most unfortunately, very little time. We should focus on those that can wait a bit or those that no one would give us, but can't postpone wars because some options are economical. In 10 years 7b or even 10b won't be a big deal. Heck, we already spent almost 1b for 6 helos today!
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by KSingh »

basant wrote:There is no necessity for pyrrhic victory in making a helo after its too late. There are no second bests in wars. We need them today and we don't even have final designs. There are those weapon systems that we can afford to wait, and there are those that you can't. By the time IMRH will get IOC/FOC, China may actually be ready with 2 more a/c carriers!

We have limited resources and, most unfortunately, very little time. We should focus on those that can wait a bit or those that no one would give us, but can't postpone wars because some options are economical. In 10 years 7b or even 10b won't be a big deal. Heck, we already spent almost 1b for 6 helos today!
So if navy will be waiting 10 years for NMRH anyway then why not wait for N-IMRH?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by basant »

KSingh wrote:So if navy will be waiting 10 years for NMRH anyway then why not wait for N-IMRH?
If 10 yr is what Navy can wait, I would be okay too if HAL is sure of pulling it off. But there must be some reason why HAL does not seem to mind NMRH being foreign..., may be something that HAL now realizes that they can't deliver without a complete redesign (as it turned out for ALH). ALH case was understandable in the sense HAL did not have expertise then, but now probably both parties understand. I am only speculating here, but for NMRH automatic blade folding will be a minimum requirement, and HAL's current rotor design may not be well-suited for that. And I think as one of the Naval pilots has said, changing that would basically mean designing a helo from scratch. I'd be delighted if IN and HAL find a workable solution, but from that interview of HAL CMD, it looked to me as if HAL also understands difficulties with the Naval variant.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by KSingh »

basant wrote:If 10 yr is what Navy can wait, I would be okay too if HAL is sure of pulling it off. But there must be some reason why HAL does not seem to mind NMRH being foreign..., may be something that HAL now realizes that they can't deliver without a complete redesign (as it turned out for ALH). ALH case was understandable in the sense HAL did not have expertise then, but now probably both parties understand. I am only speculating here, but for NMRH automatic blade folding will be a minimum requirement, and HAL's current rotor design may not be well-suited for that. And I think as one of the Naval pilots has said, changing that would basically mean designing a helo from scratch. I'd be delighted if IN and HAL find a workable solution, but from that interview of HAL CMD, it looked to me as if HAL also understands difficulties with the Naval variant.
1) HAL HAS already designed automatic blade folding
2) IMRH IS a clean sheet design, anything navy wants can be designed in today
3) Unlike ALH, HAL has already created a separate N-IMRH design from outset.
4) with expertise built up over decades and multiple projects now I fail to see how N-IMRH is unobtainable tech
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by basant »

^^^
May be I missed some recent developments. Is there any information available about the varient's progress? The latest I could find was this:

HAL seeks $ 1.4 Billion & foreign OEM for developing new copter
In an emerging business opportunity for foreign helicopter makers, India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is now looking to produce a ‘medium weight’ multi-role copter in the 10-12 tonne class, by forging a partnership with a company with experience of making such copters.
...
Called the Indian Multi Role Helicopter (IMRH), the HAL has submitted a Preliminary Project Report (PPR) for Development of the copter to the MoD for sanction of funds. The HAL is seeking some Rs 10,000 ( approx $1.42 billion) for development of the copter, its design and initial tests. The Cabinet committee on security (CCS) headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi is expected to take on call on it soon
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by KSingh »

basant wrote:^^^
May be I missed some recent developments. Is there any information available about the varient's progress? The latest I could find was this:

HAL seeks $ 1.4 Billion & foreign OEM for developing new copter
In an emerging business opportunity for foreign helicopter makers, India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is now looking to produce a ‘medium weight’ multi-role copter in the 10-12 tonne class, by forging a partnership with a company with experience of making such copters.
...
Called the Indian Multi Role Helicopter (IMRH), the HAL has submitted a Preliminary Project Report (PPR) for Development of the copter to the MoD for sanction of funds. The HAL is seeking some Rs 10,000 ( approx $1.42 billion) for development of the copter, its design and initial tests. The Cabinet committee on security (CCS) headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi is expected to take on call on it soon

Haven’t heard any updates since then either. Seems to be the same story as always- begging and waiting for funding. Hopefully HAL is doing what they can with internal funds as they have done in the past and aren’t sat idle. IMRH can be a huge winner for them, just IA/IAF requirements alone are 300++ units.
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