Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 16 Jun 2020 05:56

BrahMos becomes first desi missile to receive fleet release clearance

From the above article

So the Brahmos ALCM is now available for the Ladakh confrontation.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 16 Jun 2020 08:59

Does fleet release clearance mean that the entire fleet is cleared for it or just the 40 as originally proposed? What is the difference between clearance received for brahmos vs Astra?

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Jun 2020 09:11

^^^
If you read the article, this Brahmos FRC is defined as IOC-equivalent. FOC at a later date.

It also mentions a limited number of airframes integrated with No.222 squadron. More will be added progressively. 40 airframes is the eventual number.

Basically, a limited operational capability at this point. Few airframes, few qualified pilots and a low munition stock. Not all operational modes opened up. Tactics development a work in progress.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 16 Jun 2020 10:40

The article says that in view of the current stand off with China at the border the FRC has been fast tracked so that the missile is available for immediate missions.

The air launched Brahmos has a 300 kg warhead and a range of at least 400 km with a CEP/accuracy of 1 meter. Leh to Ngari and Hotan PLAAF airbases is less than 400 kms. Bagdogra to PLAAF Shiagatse is 200 km and Tezpur to the PLAAF airbase at Lhasa is less than 400 km. So all 4 PLAAF airbases closest to India and most important for the PLAAF to mount attacks on India are within standoff range from Indian territory.

basant · Post by **basant** » 18 Jun 2020 17:57

Source: Twitter

FrontalAssault
@FrontalAssault1
Big Breaking: India to buy 12 Sukhoi and 21 MiG-29 under emergency purchase from Russia.

5:03 PM · Jun 18, 2020·Twitter for Android

Kavyanshu Tyagi
@kavyanshu_tyagi
I believe you but deal is old final order is placed now to sensationalise china

FrontalAssault
@FrontalAssault1
Replying to @kavyanshu_tyagi
Never said deal is new but read again, it was planned not passed. But its Fastracked now.
5:28 PM · Jun 18, 2020·Twitter for Android

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Jun 2020 18:27

Cant they clear the 83Mk1A and some more LCA FOC aircraft also, push HAL to increase LCA production to 24-32?

basant · Post by **basant** » 18 Jun 2020 18:37

Aditya_V wrote:Cant they clear the 83Mk1A and some more LCA FOC aircraft also, push HAL to increase LCA production to 24-32?

That will take at least 3 years to deliver 1st, if all goes well. We have to face the situation now! Keep checking for LCH order. Sadly, it's not what they are interested in. GoI will need to answer a lot of questions for 6 yrs, but not now.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 18 Jun 2020 19:10

Those Mig-29s and MKIs will not come tomorrow either. BTW HAL just finished building their last MKI a few months back (i.e. they should have ordered followup batch a 2-3 years ago). Mk1A deal is also pending for over 2 years at least.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 18 Jun 2020 21:16

If GOI cracks the whip and DPSUs and Private companies get into "Wartime mode", we can crank out MK1s, once a week. It'll probably take no more than a month to get to that throughput.

Make everyone work 2 shifts, cancel all holidays, open up the purse, inspire them that this for the nation. Then watch the magic happen.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jun 2020 23:08

Amidst Border Bloodshed, Air-Launched BrahMos Cleared For Combat
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/06 ... ombat.html
18 June 2020

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jun 2020 23:11

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 32992?s=20 ---> IAF has ordered a total of atleast 216 BrahMos ALCM which has a range of over 400 km (as per PIB-GOI). Will be integrated onboard 42 Su-30MKIs distributed to various sqdns. Last week BrahMos got combat use clearance. More orders likely.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 18 Jun 2020 23:20

abhik wrote:Those Mig-29s and MKIs will not come tomorrow either. BTW HAL just finished building their last MKI a few months back (i.e. they should have ordered followup batch a 2-3 years ago). Mk1A deal is also pending for over 2 years at least.

Problem isn't just with delivery time frames but also about integration. As in what happens when you receive the aircraft. New types (like Rafale) come with their own squadron transition plans, integration, and training and learning curves. Existing platforms, especially if they are being bought as replacement for aircraft lost, slot into the existing force structure and operational units. Same rationale as to why the USAF ANG is wholesale migrating away from F-15C to F-15EX as opposed to a staggered increase in F-35A buy (ANG F-15C replacement isn't currently part of the F-35A force structure requirement so these would have been additional orders). The latter would have meant a multi-decade fleet transition as squadrons sunset, and units took a couple of years to transition to a new type and then obtain the requisite clearances, field the requisite infrastructure, do the necessary training to be able to operate that type in combat. The F-15 EX's slot right in to the existing F-15C training, support, and maintenance infrastructure of these units. So if you are fast tracking something it better not have a short term readiness impact because that sort of defeats the entire purpose (to, in a relatively quick time, build up capacity). Sometimes accelerating long term plans isn't the best way to fast-track and gain capability. That can actually alter the readiness dynamics. Long term transitions are best done at a cadence that is sustainable and that balances the transition with the transient readiness impact that is associated with transitioning to a new type.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Jun 2020 23:45

This is what I've been saying for decades.There must be red flags when desi systems approved and in the pipeline or development are delayed to such an extent that the lack of the system dangerously affect the combat capability of the force concerned,the LCA for example and the lack of numbers as aircraft are pensioned off.. When
this date is reached,Plan B, acquisition of an alternative from wherever,should be on the table,system chosen ,for approval by the CCS. Very oftemn the MOD shoots itself and th⁸e service concerned in the foot.Example,the ban on the Leonardo Group after the AW scandal.Instead of sanctions against AW,all group cos. were affected and the order for torpedoes for the Scorpene and Arihant nuclear subs got " torpedoed",pardon the pun.

Worldwide mega defence MNCs/ OEMs like BAe,Lockheed,Boeing,etc.,have swallowed up many smaller defence cos. Sanctioning an entire group is asinine and thanks to our great MOD,even today,more than 5 years after the AW issue, our subs have not got a suitable alternative,not evfn chosen! Older fish of lesser capability are reportrdly being used. Imagine the great handicap today for our subs which needed these torpedoes in the current context.

Every requirement must have the tripwire for inordinate delays in development,delivery and decision-making.When such red flag occurs,it must bring about an immediate crisis meeting.When the amber light is reached,the search hor alternatives must begin.
MP did so when the Rafale deal was stuck for various reasons,when he said that we had an alternative,more MKIs.
This policy must be enforced by the DM,plus money earmarked for defence items by the Fin.Min. and disbursed,will remain with the ministry for the approved purpose anc not returned to the Fin.Min. Needlessly the whole process has to be repeated.

Delays and repeat contests because of some vos. pulling out of tenders leaving a single supplier situ.The tanker req.,among others. It is only when we are in an acute crisis does fear wake up the establishment. We then see the famous " knee-jerk" combat manoeuvre by the MOD!

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Jun 2020 00:41

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 32992?s=20 ---> IAF has ordered a total of atleast 216 BrahMos ALCM which has a range of over 400 km (as per PIB-GOI). Will be integrated onboard 42 Su-30MKIs distributed to various sqdns. Last week BrahMos got combat use clearance. More orders likely.

Brahmos-A needs to be ordered in a bulk like 1000 units. Great for destroying high-value targets and decapitating leadership command.

There is no defense for the air-launched combo pairings of 3000km Su-30MKI and 450km Brahmos-A. A Su-30MKI would be able to launch a Brahmos every time from within Indian airspace (and just past the border at selected areas) without being challenged.

More Su-30MKIs need to be able to carry it beyond the 40 planned. One of the best deterrent option available right now.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 19 Jun 2020 02:28

Regime (MTCR), India becoming a signatory in 2017 has seen BrahMos tests at expanded range, with a ‘final’ BrahMos likely to be fixed at a range of 900 km.

From Livefist.

That 900 km variant is needed fast. As well as the NG variant which will allow a 3x loadout on the SU-30 and 2x loadouts on the Rafale, Mig 29 plus either a 1x or a 2x on the Tejas.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 19 Jun 2020 04:28

Aditya_V wrote:Cant they clear the 83Mk1A and some more LCA FOC aircraft also, push HAL to increase LCA production to 24-32?

Increase to 32/year and then all will be delivered in 2.5 years, then what?

What many don’t seem to appreciate is that production capacity follows FROM orders. Not the other way around.

So if you want 24-32/year the IAF needs to order more MK1A. Order 123 MK1A and HAL can increase production to 24+/year and deliver in the same time it will take them to deliver 83 at 16/year

But instead they use this crisis to push for more imports.

21 MIG-29s and 12 MKIs adds 1 squadron of fighters to the IAF only - those MKIs are to replace airframe losses and 2-3 of those MIG-29s are to do the same. So for 33 “new” jets (those -29s are actually just mothballed airframes re-conditioned for IAF use) the IAF only actually increases it’s strength by 1 squadron.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Jun 2020 04:41

Prem Kumar wrote:If GOI cracks the whip and DPSUs and Private companies get into "Wartime mode", we can crank out MK1s, once a week. It'll probably take no more than a month to get to that throughput.

Make everyone work 2 shifts, cancel all holidays, open up the purse, inspire them that this for the nation. Then watch the magic happen.

Let’s look at the order book:

16 IOC delivered
2 FOC delivered + 14 in production
8 Trainers in production

That’s the order book for you. Don’t see how double shifts will get you far!

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 19 Jun 2020 05:33

sahib, Excel me possible hai. If you don't know I can show you

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 19 Jun 2020 06:01

Philip wrote:If the Ru arms are useless why is the IAF wanting them? Remember that the backbone of the IAF are the 272 MKIs,superior to the Chin Flanker clones.
Mort,I too would like to see a couple of hundred LCAs in the sky,but they are less capable being smaller ,are single-engined,can't carry BMos and are really replacements for the retiring hundreds of MIG-21s.They would be great against the Paki JF-17s,etc.,but the border with China stretches over 3000km and we have to hit their infra targets deep inside Tibet etc., to sever their road/ rail links with the rest of China. We need long-legged strike aircraft and we have only a few tankers. The prod. rate of LCAs is pathetic.8 /yr. Even if it is doubled to 16 it will take until 2030 for the 160+ you want built! The need is now. We need to obtain extra aircraft of types in service,as many as we can, as their induction would be very simple and cost effective,hence the extra MKIs and 29s. Building another 2 sqds. of MKIs upgraded to Super Sukhoi std. at Nasik should be cleared.The desi content of an MKI is now over 70%,I think even more than the LCA.

The 272 MKIs are already with the IAF. The Russians will have to be paid a premium to get the additional MKIs and Mig-29s in knocked down kit form to deliver to India. At what rate is Russian production? To do it fast enough, then they will have to be paid a premium and the Russians have never really honored contracts too well. They'll get a fast track contract worth billions from India, then take a bribe from the Chinese and slow down production, or worse yet sell India non-functioning LRUs. The fact is, unless these are used Su-30s and Mig-29s, it will take three years to get all aircraft from the Russians, then integrate them into the IAF.

Not only does an order for 200 Tejas MK1A need to be placed TODAY, but a solid investment in HAL production of $2 billion to ramp up production to 3 lines which where each line can 24 Tejas within a year. In less than 3 years the IAF has 200 Tejas Mk1A and then the Mirage and hopefully 72 Rafales. By then, you've created a huge working knowledge of aircraft production and employment which will be beneficial for quickly getting the Tejas MKII out.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 19 Jun 2020 06:05

srai wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:If GOI cracks the whip and DPSUs and Private companies get into "Wartime mode", we can crank out MK1s, once a week. It'll probably take no more than a month to get to that throughput.

Make everyone work 2 shifts, cancel all holidays, open up the purse, inspire them that this for the nation. Then watch the magic happen.
Let’s look at the order book:

16 IOC delivered
2 FOC delivered + 14 in production
8 Trainers in production

That’s the order book for you. Don’t see how double shifts will get you far!

A massive investment of $2 billion in HAL to increase production lines, hire and train technicians and engineers will be needed. This would be an employment and technology investment for the future of aerospace in India. If $2 billion isn't enough, then make it $3 billion. It's still much cheaper than continually importing weapon systems. The investment must be made.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Jun 2020 09:26

^^^
Given large enough orders, HAL is open to partnering with private company (SP model) to open up additional assembly line.

Major sub-components (fuselage, wings, fins and tail) are already outsourced to private Tier-1 companies. They will scale up accordingly. These components could be outsourced to additional companies too if sufficient orders are placed.

SP model shouldn’t just apply for foreign OEM imported stuff. It can be done with home-grown stuff too!

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 19 Jun 2020 13:46

AFM July reports that the IAF will most likely get the Ex Algerian,Ex RuFAF Izdeliye 9.19 MiG 29 SMT and upgrade them to the 9.20 IAF specific standard.
Point to note is Algeria said MiG scammed them with used aircraft parts on this "new" SMT, cancelled the contract and got Su30s(MKA).
Hope the VayuSena has done full homework and doesn't get into the same situation.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Jun 2020 15:55

abhik wrote:Those Mig-29s and MKIs will not come tomorrow either. BTW HAL just finished building their last MKI a few months back (i.e. they should have ordered followup batch a 2-3 years ago). Mk1A deal is also pending for over 2 years at least.

The quick defence deal to buy 33 russian jets is just to frustrate beijing further and keep russia neutral, if not completely on New Delhi’s side. Modi is a serious player whereas others in his place would have quietly placated xi and diplomatically turned a nelson's eye to xi's nefarious plans as was the sad case prior to Modi's arrival on the scene.

xi has made a serious error of judgement and also handed India a multiplicity of choices to respond tangibly to the han's creeping incursions under the overhang of so called "talks" with Modi to precipitate a fait accompli.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 19 Jun 2020 20:35

Mort Walker wrote:The fact is, unless these are used Su-30s and Mig-29s, it will take three years to get all aircraft from the Russians, then integrate them into the IAF.
.

It needn't be a binary choice. The SU-30's are top up orders to account for attrition. They will slot into the existing force structure and will occupy the void left by the aircraft that have been lost over the years. You aren't "integrating" them into the force like you would a new aircraft, or a new variant of an existing aircraft. So while there will be a lead time (2, possibly 3 years) once delivered these aircraft will be available with pilots and crew trained and experienced from day 1. MiG-29's may be a different story but it appears they are already built aircraft which will be brought to the standard of what the IAF already. If so, this too will be a significantly faster and cheaper integration than introducing a new type. Both these contracts are a good way to plug gaps in the force structure and account for attrition over time. In fact this isn't a new, war-time proposal. It is merely fast tracking of something that was already on the cards. LCA orders (firming up the one currently stuck) and additional funding needs to happen in parallel as that is addressing a completely different matter (indigenization and type/fleet replacement). One is a short-medium term solution (how to shore up squadron strength and account for attrition inside a 3-4 year horizon) while the other is a medium to long term solution (how to replace hundreds of retiring aircraft over the next couple of decades).

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 Jun 2020 23:24

MeshaVishwas wrote:AFM July reports that the IAF will most likely get the Ex Algerian,Ex RuFAF Izdeliye 9.19 MiG 29 SMT and upgrade them to the 9.20 IAF specific standard.
Point to note is Algeria said MiG scammed them with used aircraft parts on this "new" SMT, cancelled the contract and got Su30s(MKA).
Hope the VayuSena has done full homework and doesn't get into the same situation.

Very interesting. So then the No.9 BRD doesn't need to do a complete upgrade from Izdeliye 9.12B to Izdeliye 9.20 UPG standard. Only specific items will need to be modified to bring the 9.19 standard to the 9.20 standard. This deal makes a lot of sense now.

The Russian Air Force has been flying the MiG-29SMTs that were built and delivered to the Algerians. While we seem to be getting most of the rest, which were not yet fully assembled and not delivered either to the Algerians or to the Russians.

12 MiG-29SMTs were fully built and supplied to the Algerian AF. There were another 22 that were being built, when Algeria decided to cancel the order and return the 12 it had received.

article link

Algeria is returning 12 RSK MiG-29SMT single-seat fighters and UBT-model trainers to Russia, after refusing to accept the aircraft amid allegations of poor manufacturing quality.

The aircraft are part of a package for 34 MiG-29SMT/UBTs worth $1.3 billion, with an additional $500 million for the modernisation of 36 early-model MiG-29s acquired for $18 million each from Belarus and Ukraine.

These should have been upgraded to the SMT/UBT standard, but following shipment of the first batch last year, the Algerian air force found that some "new" equipment actually dated back to the early 1990s, when the aircraft had been manufactured.

RSK MiG says all avionics and targeting equipment supplied with the aircraft is new, and reflects its current production variants.

..

I believe the issue was addressed in Russia already, with jail terms for MiG officials and officials from the company that supplied the faulty parts

link

Investigators, however, insist that both officials deliberately signed contracts with firms that sold old and faulty aviation equipment to the MiG company using forged certificates and tags while charging as if it were new equipment.

Some of the faulty parts were installed on MiG-29 fighter jets sold to Algeria through Russia’s state arms exporter Rosoboronexport.

Rosoboronexport signed a $1.3 bln contract to deliver 28 one-seater MiG-29SMT fighters and six two-seater MiG-29UB combat trainers to Algeria in March 2006 as part of an $8 billion military cooperation agreement.

However, after receiving 15 MiG fighters, Algeria refused further deliveries in May 2007. It then froze all payments under contracts with Russia in October 2007, requiring that Moscow first take back the 15 MiG-29s due to their "inferior quality."

Three Russian businessmen involved in the same fraud were convicted by a Moscow court in May, 2012, and were sentenced to prison terms and hefty fines.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 20 Jun 2020 18:15

IAF Chief Bhaduria's Q&A during today's passing out parade.

The IQ of our journalists is pathetic as you can see from many cringe worthy questions. Imagine we are having endless debates based on their reports.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Jun 2020 20:07

Some baseless speculation but still putting it

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2020/ ... 7-fighter/

srai · Post by **srai** » 21 Jun 2020 21:20

^^^
Media on a “panick” import spree

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 21 Jun 2020 21:33

Kartik wrote: Very interesting. So then the No.9 BRD doesn't need to do a complete upgrade from Izdeliye 9.12B to Izdeliye 9.20 UPG standard. Only specific items will need to be modified to bring the 9.19 standard to the 9.20 standard. This deal makes a lot of sense now.

I would take the AFM report with a load of salt. Multiple media sources have reported that the birds being looked at are bare shells built in the 80s. I expect IAF would have full oversight of the build process. Perhaps the shells will be shipped to the base depot or wherever the current upgrade was done and the frames finished there.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 21 Jun 2020 21:58

This is Part 1 on HF-24. A lot is from the perspective of people who were there and told me. Every single fighter test pilot went to AA&TU now defunct at IAF Chakeri. Aircraft and Armament Testing Unit. A lot of them somehow came to our home. APJ Kalam was at AA&TU but no I did not meet him.
MSD Wollen was there and a host of others. Kalam may have been involved in that thing ma jig called a jet pack on top of the AN-12 to allow it to take off from Leh and that ALG DBO yevrybodies uncle, third cousin and aunty is talking about.

Kanpur in the 1950s and 1960s was the most exciting place to be in India. The young kids of the late 1950s generation from Kanpur have gone on to become pioneers in their respective fields and excel in ways I could not have imagined. This mafia lives on building and promoting excellence.

In 1955 Kurt Tank was in Argentina and had developed the Pulqui.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_IAe_33_Pulqui_II

He had heard that India was trying to develop a fighter. The situation in Argentina was becoming unstable with Peron and on one of his visits to Germany, Tank met Mahavir Tyagi the then Defence Minister in Bonn in late 1955. Tyagi offered him a position in HAL. But Tank knew nothing about Indian aviation and was reluctant. Krupp wanted to start an aircraft factory in Kaltenkirchen and he was more interested in that. But it became apparent after six months that the Bundestag would not fund this attempt and the GoI offer had some time limit, so Tank accepted. He arrived in Bangalore Feb 1956 and met 14 Indian engineers of HAL and was favorably impressed. He accepted the offer. One of the engineers was V. M. Ghatage after whom the conference hall Ghatage hall in HAL is named

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu_Madav_Ghatage

About Ghatage: There was only a low speed wind tunnel in the IISc aeronautical department those days and no facility for transonic and supersonic testing in India. No wind tunnels for sure. Thus Ghatage was moved to Europe ^^^ so that he could make use of a high speed wind tunnel to test HF-24 characteristics in the supersonic and transonic regime. More about this in another episode.

The plan was to use two Bristol Orpheus 12-SR engines, 3728dA/3800 kp thrust, 4905dA/5000kp with afterburner. But this engine was under test and development and so the plan was to make use of the Orpheus 703 engine 1962 daN/2200 kp in the interim. This engine was powering the Folland Gnat. Two years later Bristol sent a message that the program for the 12-SR was being dropped as NATO was not interested. But Bristol would continue developmental work for 4.7 million pounds sterling. This was deemed too much for the Indian government. Thus started the long and weary saga of the HF-24 engine. The aircraft is always built around the engine, dum, dum, dum, dum. Here it goes.

By then Krishna Menon had taken over as defence minister and he had started the negotiations with the Russians for the Mig-21 with a Tumansky engine. He also broached with them to supply a powerplant for the Hf-24. The wily Russians realized that it was not in their best interest to have India bring their HF-24 program to fruition and so they strung India along and eventually also sabotaged the engine development. It should be noted that a full 8 years would elapse before India could have a Mig-21 delivered.

Now you have to wait for the rest of the story. You may disagree have other political views and so on, but a lot of people come out as crooks, even the Russians. Test pilots who are reading this will also come out as second rate, not all some, some like Suranjan Das excel. Let me name one bad egg test pilot: Roshan Lal Suri. He will figure in part 2. So will Ayesha Shroff the film actress. Hahahahaha muhahaha

What do you young people call it, clickbait?? Yes, yes she is incidental but will be there and so will the Nobel laureate Max Born I find all these links amusing, maybe in those days when I was a boy in the late 50s all these AA&TU guys found me amusing.

Willy Messerschmitt the other famous name in WW2 German aviation was lured by the Egyptians to head their fighter effort at Helwan. The paths of Messerschmitt and Tank would cross again with the HF-24.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 22 Jun 2020 00:40

Part 2 the HF-24 story

A parallel effort was also being mounted to buy and manufacture under licence a fighter aircraft in India. As part of this Make in India initiative, in October 1954, P. C. Lal (then Deputy Secy(Military) to the Cabinet), Gp.Capt Moolgavkar then in command of a station and Flt Lt Roshan Lal Suri a test pilot with HAL who we will encounter later left for Europe as part of an evaluation team to see which aircraft was best suited to follow the Vampire then in IAF service. The team went to France, England and Sweden. On October 15, 1954 in France this team flew its first supersonic flight by Indians on a Mystere IV A and also evaluated several other aircraft. In England they evaluated the Supermarine Swift which was considered ideal for the IAF on paper. Suri flew it first. It was still in the developmental stage. Lal flew second and was told if the engine stopped that one had to get below 20,000 feet to relight. Jet engines those days were horribly unreliable. Lal took the plane up and over the Channel where he could go supersonic. Making a gentle turn one engine stopped. He was at 40,000 feet and got down to 18,000 and managed to relight the engine. After landing he asked why did the engine stop in a gentle turn, answer given----Bad Avon RR engine. RR jet engines were named after UK rivers. Avon, Nene etc.
So the team went to Derby to RR works and asked what sort of an engine is this, answer given, engine is great, aircraft is a dud. You know pressure waves, i.e shocks and engine flames out, putting a big steel ka danda in the compressor. India was supposed to sign a contract with RR to Make in India the Avon engine. Lal sent an immediate telegram to withhold signing that damn contract. RR and RAF spent 300 million pounds on that engine and junked(compare with what I wrote above Bristol was asking GoI). Same engine fitted on a Canberra is fine. Regarding the Swift, RAF had messed with the plane so much they ruined the plane, allo, allo IAF and HAL anyone home and listening.

How did playing cricket get us the Gnat? These and other stories in another part. I should have written how did playing ludo get us the Gnat? Santayana or maybe someone else and the cliche, those who do not read history, repeat it. So even STEM people should read history.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jun 2020 06:16

I think the IAF in its planning for airplane procurement did not realize that China would loom so early as a threat.
Here we need to understand the long delays and political forces rearing their ugly hoods again. Hence the emergency purchase of planes from Russia.
Same IAF sneered at HAL offer to continue making 40 Su-30MKIs two years ago saying they had enough of those planes.

Would rank as a Kalidasa move if it did not jeopardize national security.

Some planners wanted US planes without realizing even USAF has to wait 3 to 4 years once contract is placed!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Jun 2020 06:23

Ramana-ji, I am sure the Boeing and LM can scale up production if planes were needed right away. There will likely be a cost associated with that increased delivery, but if anyone can deliver rapidly...it will be the US.

Buying planes - from any country - requires the nod from the IAF. At the end of the day, they are the user. And to have any meaningful effect, those planes will be required to slot right into the IAF's ORBAT, present infrastructure and have a qualified pool of personnel to operate them. None of that exists right now and will take time.

Even the 12 Su-30MKIs and 21 MiG-29s being ordered will not come anytime soon either. Estimates range from 18 - 24 months for the MiG-29s to be delivered. Not sure how long the 12 Su-30MKIs will take and they are only attrition replacements.

And neither will the first batch of Rafales coming next month will make any difference. By the time deliveries are complete in 2022, surely. But right now, the IAF will fight with what it has...when the balloon goes up.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 22 Jun 2020 06:35

Rakesh wrote:Ramana-ji, I am sure the Boeing and LM can scale up production if planes were needed right away. There will likely be a cost associated with that increased delivery, but if anyone can deliver rapidly...it will be the US.

Boeing yes, Lockheed no. Boeing has capacity in its lines and can tweak advanced funding to get deliveries out the door faster. Lockheed hasn't got its F-16 line running yet and it needs to be certified, including certifying and testing the first aircraft that rolls from it. All their capacity flexibility is tied on the F-35 production capacity where they have a fair bit of slack on the A variant (not so much on the B and nothing on the C). Overall FRP there is going to be something like 170 aircraft or more so the current delta (20-30 units a year) can be moved up with advanced funding. But that isn't an option so Lockheed has really no product that it can deliver within a 2-2.5 year window from today (There were Turkish F-35A's that didn't have a 'buyer' and were expected to go into permanent storage but the US Senate recently asked that all be moved to the USAF so they are now accounted for as long as the House of Rep. complies (which it likely will).).

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 22 Jun 2020 06:47

Having a plane is one thing, having qualified personnel to fly them (and it take years for someone to type qualify, particularly if you are going against experienced or trained apposition) is another, having infra and support on ground yet another and the last, having it integrated in your AF and have a doctrine to use it yet another. In a pinch, only planes that we have can be used fast if we get extra pieces of it (fast as well). I am anticipating with things moving fast it is matter of weeks and not months. Can we have few of these in say 2 months?
Rafale may have an impact - It is modelled as a lone wolf, self sufficient by itself (rather than wolf pack). We have pilots and ground crew trained for an year. If they land in time, can we integrate it with IAF so that our own ADS or EW does not try to shoot it down? Rafale for all purpose is F-35, minus shape stealth (that it makes up through spectra and very high maneuverability), it will be a game changer.
Perhaps other items that augment the existing planes can help.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 22 Jun 2020 06:53

ramana wrote:I think the IAF in its planning for airplane procurement did not realize that China would loom so early as a threat.
Here we need to understand the long delays and political forces rearing their ugly hoods again. Hence the emergency purchase of planes from Russia.
Same IAF sneered at HAL offer to continue making 40 Su-30MKIs two years ago saying they had enough of those planes.

Would rank as a Kalidasa move if it did not jeopardize national security.

Some planners wanted US planes without realizing even USAF has to wait 3 to 4 years once contract is placed!

At the risk of repeating myself I will say that for the same $8.5 billion that the IAF spent on the 36 Rafale, none of which have yet hit the ground, they could have 72 F-16s, pricing estimate based on the Taiwan deal for 66 with AMRAAM 120-Ds. And unlike Dassault which has limited production capacity, IMO LM would have delivered at least 36 or more as of today. At least that is what I believe. brar-w has the final say on that. And the F-16s would have served as a perfectly adequate stop gap until the IAF was ready for a true 5th Gen whether AMCA or eventually the F-35.

Yes, the limitation would have been extra payments for customizing to integrate the Brahmos NG and Astraa and that also subject to radar source codes being shared. But bottom line is the IAF would have been better off.

And the lack of AWACs is as big a negative. Netra should have been mounted on another 6 platforms by now.

As of now IMO the IAF will hold a defensive line in air to air and it should largely succeed if the lessons of the day after Balakot have been learnt. It will not be able to dominate specially if facing a combination of PAF F-16s and PLAAF J-10Cs.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 22 Jun 2020 07:02

Naah Rafale can eat multiple F-16 for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Yes they may not be available today, who knows F-16 may not have been either...Rafale is any day a 100 times better deal than F-16. Now F-35, that would be different matter altogether.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Jun 2020 07:09

Fanne Sir, you just dropped the mike

Brar, thank you for your reply.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 22 Jun 2020 07:12

fanne wrote:Naah Rafale can eat multiple F-16 for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Yes they may not be available today, who knows F-16 may not have been either...Rafale is any day a 100 times better deal than F-16. Now F-35, that would be different matter altogether.

It is a question of the price value equation that is adequate to be superior to the PLAAF and PAF as of now. It is not about absolute superiority. Any 4th gen aircraft Rafale included is a stop gap until the IAF gets a true 5th gen stealthy fighter if HAL can deliver the AMCA or some other 5th Gen. It is also a question of delivery when needed. Wars do not wait for the IAF to be ready for them or for Dassault to deliver Rafale to the IAF. As they say perfection is the enemy of the good. Yes, the Rafale is the perfect fighter the IAF always wanted. But today we have war clouds on both horizons. Where is the Rafale?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 22 Jun 2020 07:20

ldev wrote:, pricing estimate based on the Taiwan deal for 66 with AMRAAM 120-Ds. .

No AIM-120 D's for Taiwan.