India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

[arvin]

Amazing Brahmos ALCM receives FRC in these times.
Wonder which bridge or road strip it will kiss first.

[arshyam]

Now we'll see a barrage of new or little used handles coming in and advocating immediate action, maybe even throw in a nuke or two . Maybe Modi should himself suit up and go to the border to satiate such people...

Well , it is better to speak up in time and express genuine emotions than do a desultory analysis of status quo. We have enough people who are satisfied by kadi ninda of politicians and move on. Modi should get on to the national television and address the nation . Did we all not miss the same in the aftermath of 26/11 ?

Arre bhai, let him get the full picture and decide what to do.. looks like you have made the decision for him and would go on TV yourself if given a chance

We all are jingos here, but blindly jumping up when the picture is not clear is not going to help matters. Let's try to find out what happened first, before fueling up those ballistics.

That Nitin Gokhale video NRao-ji posted has some useful information. Would suggest listening to it.

[nam]

I think it is time for GoI to speak up. Their silence is allowing people to add up stories.

Silence is fine, as long as there were genuine discussions were going on.

The Chinese were not serious about the discussion and they believe they can get away with it.

[vishvak]

I am glad about retaliation though otherwise they would just plan to kill those who lead from front and expect others to back down.

[arshyam]

Whatever happens next, I have utmost faith in our leaership. They have let us down till now. Neither in 2016 nor in 2019. What we need to do down is support the army and have faith in modi so that they may not be pressured to act in haste.

Exactly. People talking about '62 and other events don't realize how much Nehru's hand was forced by public pressure to come up with the forward policy. That he was solely responsible to getting us into that position as well as botched execution was besides the point - people then didn't understand logistics and expected "some action" immediately by GoI. Modi, in contrast, has paid attention to the basics over the past few years, and has his track record on provocations. So let's at wait till GoI addresses the public officially. It will happen. Soon. But the PM himself - perhaps not.

[Pashupatastra]

There are many many hidden rakshaks outside of BR, you know. It takes something like this to bring them here. Tge culture here will make them more rational but their heart is in the right place.

Saar, just egging on blindly is as good as parroting opposition taunts about "56 inch" etc. without even knowing what happened. We all know where the heart of our political opposition is, so no point giving some space for such nonsense. No military would rush blindly into conflict, and simply piping up about destroying things is not going to help.

There was a news discussion I was watching just now on TV, and an "analyst" was criticizing Modi for talking to the CMs about dealing with corona when something like this happened. Never mind that this meeting was scheduled in advance, this worthy seems to want the PM to be on hair-trigger alert and drop everything he is doing and immediately react with whatever he has, for every small provocation. Even if he plans to do something, would Modi be such a fool to telegraph his intentions by immediately meeting with CMs and discussing war? That, sadly, is the level of analysis in our public domain and we get some of that here too...

The way you use "Every small provocation" for the above incident makes one nauseous. I am not pimping for any political party or government. But , confusing inaction/indecisiveness with strategic restraint is a folly. All need to revisit history to remember how address by leaders - like Roosevelt can galvanise a country. For you it may be a local action limited to specific area viz Ladakh but others like me view it as crossing the rubicon.

[arshyam]

I am glad about retaliation though otherwise they would just plan to kill those who lead from front and expect others to back down.

Unfortunately, that may be the way the Chinese military operates, but they'd be in for a nasty surprise if they think our troops would back down if their CO was taken down like this. Yes, we did display some of that during IPKF, but the IA of today is far more battle-hardened than back then. The Chinese would get (and most likely got) a bloody nose if they try some thing like this.

[arshyam]

Saar, just egging on blindly is as good as parroting opposition taunts about "56 inch" etc. without even knowing what happened. We all know where the heart of our political opposition is, so no point giving some space for such nonsense. No military would rush blindly into conflict, and simply piping up about destroying things is not going to help.

There was a news discussion I was watching just now on TV, and an "analyst" was criticizing Modi for talking to the CMs about dealing with corona when something like this happened. Never mind that this meeting was scheduled in advance, this worthy seems to want the PM to be on hair-trigger alert and drop everything he is doing and immediately react with whatever he has, for every small provocation. Even if he plans to do something, would Modi be such a fool to telegraph his intentions by immediately meeting with CMs and discussing war? That, sadly, is the level of analysis in our public domain and we get some of that here too...

The way you use "Every small provocation" for the above incident makes one nauseous. I am not pimping for any political party or government. But , confusing inaction/indecisiveness with strategic restraint is a folly. All need to revisit history to remember how address by leaders - like Roosevelt can galvanise a country. For you it may be a local action limited to specific area viz Ladakh but others like me view it as crossing the rubicon.

Okay boss, how many special Agnis are you fueling up? Don't stop till every last missile is ready to launch, okay?

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Whatever happens next, I have utmost faith in our leaership. They have let us down till now. Neither in 2016 nor in 2019. What we need to do down is support the army and have faith in modi so that they may not be pressured to act in haste.

Exactly. People talking about '62 and other events don't realize how much Nehru's hand was forced by public pressure to come up with the forward policy. That he was solely responsible to getting us into that position as well as botched execution was besides the point - people then didn't understand logistics and expected "some action" immediately by GoI. Modi, in contrast, has paid attention to the basics over the past few years, and has his track record on provocations. So let's at wait till GoI addresses the public officially. It will happen. Soon. But the PM himself - perhaps not.

++1 to that.

We all believe that we need to retaliate to stop this salami slicing. PRC also does not want war. They rather not have one. Hence a strong riposte will cool their ardour. Fast.

But let's not rush into one just like that. Let's make it count.

[arshyam]

So there you go - the DGMO to brief the media soon (per TimesNow).

[SSridhar]

Pashupatastra, restrain yourself.

[Lohit]

Unsurprised to see a lot of dhoti shivering as usual. Remind me, did Modi do televised broadcasts after Pathankot and Uri? Did the pabacks happen or not?

Modi carrying on as usual is super good news. This was also how he carried on before post-Uri and balakot strikes. Regardless, it shows armed forces are capable of maintaining their honor. Of course some might say that Modi should also jump in because Gen Navrane may not be able to achieve this. Such retarded thought process cant be rectified.

Good to hear news from Pune. Poona light infantry has feasted on Peking duck. Their aerial counterparts may also get a chance to sample it in Aksai Chin. Let dharma prevail!

[vivekmehta]

This will be a game changer ,first time in decades blood have been spilled . More logically i see as
-More trade restrictions on Chinese
-faster development in border infra
- officially china taking over Pakistan as enemy number 1 in eyes common indian.who is already pissed with COVID.

There is no doubt that indian forces are more battle hardened then Chinese but they needed to be supported well with investments in coming days.

This will be a long low intensity conflict which will peak with every summer , both army’s will try to take upper hand when other is not present in area.

[darshan]

There's something called chain of command for a reason. Modi would have already let his wishes known to this chain long ago. The Chinese resorting to murdering of IA men instead of stealing land clearly shows that Modi means business. Chinese had to go up the ladder from stealing to murdering. All because Modi has a plan and it's being executed.

[Karna]

Unsurprised to see a lot of dhoti shivering as usual. Remind me, did Modi do televised broadcasts after Pathankot and Uri? Did the pabacks happen or not?

Modi carrying on as usual is super good news. This was also how he carried on before post-Uri and balakot strikes. Regardless, it shows armed forces are capable of maintaining their honor. Of course some might say that Modi should also jump in because Gen Navrane may not be able to achieve this. Such retarded thought process cant be rectified.

Good to hear news from Pune. Poona light infantry has feasted on Peking duck. Their aerial counterparts may also get a chance to sample it in Aksai Chin. Let dharma prevail!

I hate the term dhoti shivering. I don't think any poster on BRF doesn't believe in the capabilities of our armed forces. Everyone is angry at the loss of our men.

Modi has in fact commented immediately after URI and Pulwama. Not trying to derail the thread into a political one and we should avoid it. This is about our land and our men were deliberately killed on our soil. Hence, a nation may look up to a leader and a strong voice to guide them.

URI: https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... k-3049164/

Pulwama: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 005895.cms

[AshishA]

Any thoughts from rakshaks on what are the possible options available on how we can respond to this aggression?

Now the point is not why they aren't responding but how the Indian army is going to respond. What options will they consider.

[Aditya_V]

Ambush a patrol , kill them all and announce India China clashed and 4 Chinese died, no Indian casualties

[Nihat]

Any thoughts from rakshaks on what are the possible options available on how we can respond to this aggression?

Now the point is not why they aren't responding but how the Indian army is going to respond. What options will they consider.

A Quiet patrol ambush in the coming few days - we are past masters at the same and have implemented it effectively over the past several years on the Western Border.

But the long term game has to be initiated in PoK and IOR and most definitely the Tibet Region and One China Policy - though I understand those topics fall outside the realm of this discussion

[sajo]

While the Chinese may have "political officers" amongst their armed forces rank, perhaps with good amount of paper pushing under their belt and no combat and training specifically for execution of political tasks, can anyone enlighten the noobs here how battle hardened commanders from our side are equipped with the diplomatic skills needed to deal with slimy snakes?

[rkirankr]

Twitter saying some officers still with China. They are threatening us. Hard to believe if it is true

[Lohit]

Unsurprised to see a lot of dhoti shivering as usual. Remind me, did Modi do televised broadcasts after Pathankot and Uri? Did the pabacks happen or not?

Modi carrying on as usual is super good news. This was also how he carried on before post-Uri and balakot strikes. Regardless, it shows armed forces are capable of maintaining their honor. Of course some might say that Modi should also jump in because Gen Navrane may not be able to achieve this. Such retarded thought process cant be rectified.

Good to hear news from Pune. Poona light infantry has feasted on Peking duck. Their aerial counterparts may also get a chance to sample it in Aksai Chin. Let dharma prevail!

I hate the term dhoti shivering. I don't think any poster on BRF doesn't believe in the capabilities of our armed forces. Everyone is angry at the loss of our men.

Modi has in fact commented immediately after URI and Pulwama. Not trying to derail the thread into a political one and we should avoid it. This is about our land and our men were deliberately killed on our soil. Hence, a nation may look up to a leader and a strong voice to guide them.

URI: https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... k-3049164/

Pulwama: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 005895.cms

So what is your point? Is Namo,

a. Incompetent
b. Terrified
c. Lazy
d. Chu***

Please complete your logical train of thought and enlighten us. Hope you have the balls for it.

This is also my last reply to this tangent.

[Aditya_V]

Does the Indian Army expect never to have POW's, while we can keep a lid on it in media to release them if true. I hope this just Twitter troll speculation.

But clearly attacking with iron rods is a targeted assassination. Drop the sticks and stones policy quietly and hit them, I dont think attritional warfare will suit them.

[manjgu]

we also caught PLA personel ( in that vid at pangong)... the point is both sides carry sticks, iron rods, shields, catapults etc. so to say attacking with iron rods is targetted assissination is taking it a bit far. yes, the point is PLA can bring more folks to any point ( in general) as compared to IA. ofc right now nobody knows what really transpired... except shooklaw ( ofc).

[SSridhar]

Guys, take it as a warning. Any political or derailing or trolling attempts would be nixed with loss of posting rights.

This is neither the time nor the thread for such discussions.

[Venkarl]

Forgive me for barging in here from lurking mode

Instead of discussing our emotional burst over this incident, it would be better if we keep our discussions with some logical and rational sense.
BRF is open forum think tank which keeps its discussions factual, realistic and no heat of the moment hoopla outbursts(this happens once in a while)

My opinion is the escalation will dissipate for now and Army won't be allowed to retaliate in the immediate future unless and until we observe any activity across the Indo-China border and air space.

But I am really looking forward for the detailed analysis from BRF Gurus here on the possibilities GoI can/may execute...like

1. Naval Blockade of Malacca Straits or any of the "pearls"
2. Initiate talks with any South China Sea nation to station our warships
3. Usual complaints at UN
4. Open Taiwan embassy in India
5. Blow up Paki posts on CPEC (In Gilgit)
6. Blow up Chinese civilian settlements in Gwadar/Djibouti etc
7. Sink 1 or 2 Chinese merchant (non-oil) ship(s) of considerable value
8. Identify any porous borders between Myanmar and China and blow up Police/Civilian settlements (A suicidal mission)

Rather than a full blown retaliation in a land based conflict, I prefer to hit them where they don't expect.

Back to lurking mode

[Karna]

* Deleted *

[VinodTK]

Suryapet Army officer killed in skirmish with Chinese army in Ladakh

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Guys cool down. No use getting emotive or provoking one another here. Before you post please consider if the information you are posting is:
1. Venting
2. Disrespectful towards others
3. Off topic to the discussion at hand
4. Unsubstantiated bit of information or from suspect sources

If in doubt please don't post.

If you feel another member is trolling or not adding value, please desist from posting the moderators will take care of it. Of course you can report post to Mods.

We are all jingoes here. But BRF is not a fan page but a place for serious and factual discussion. Please participate in the spirit of it.

[Karna]

Forgive me for barging in here from lurking mode

Instead of discussing our emotional burst over this incident, it would be better if we keep our discussions with some logical and rational sense.
BRF is open forum think tank which keeps its discussions factual, realistic and no heat of the moment hoopla outbursts(this happens once in a while)

My opinion is the escalation will dissipate for now and Army won't be allowed to retaliate in the immediate future unless and until we observe any activity across the Indo-China border and air space.

But I am really looking forward for the detailed analysis from BRF Gurus here on the possibilities GoI can/may execute...like

1. Naval Blockade of Malacca Straits or any of the "pearls"
2. Initiate talks with any South China Sea nation to station our warships
3. Usual complaints at UN
4. Open Taiwan embassy in India
5. Blow up Paki posts on CPEC (In Gilgit)
6. Blow up Chinese civilian settlements in Gwadar/Djibouti etc
7. Sink 1 or 2 Chinese merchant (non-oil) ship(s) of considerable value
8. Identify any porous borders between Myanmar and China and blow up Police/Civilian settlements (A suicidal mission)

Rather than a full blown retaliation in a land based conflict, I prefer to hit them where they don't expect.

Back to lurking mode

While the dust will settle down, there is still the matter of current standoffs across 3-4 places, the most problematic been the Pangong Tso. So any escalation will be made keeping this mind. This is the near term objective.

Any naval blockade will be tantamounting to announcing war. Others can be done covertly. Opening a Taiwan embassy will be a serious escalation.

Whatever conversations I had with cheen populace during my stay there, Taiwan is there J&K. Recognizing it as a country will be war at all fronts.

Remember we also have a huge trade deficit with them. So expect local standoffs but bloodier.

[Ambar]

Om Shanti. India is as usual in an unenviable situation where you not only have to fight with your external enemies who want nothing but your total destruction but also with millions of internal enemies and useful idiots who sing the narrative and forward the enemy's propaganda just to placate their own deficiencies and political goals. Have full faith in the political leadership and the Indian Army, if Indian Army was a walkover as some are making it sound then the Pakis and Chinese are not exactly known for their morals or virtues or indecisiveness, they would have long taken over Delhi by now.

[RajaRudra]

We should avoid sharing the photos and names of our KIA soldiers in Social Media. Let the army release names and photos after formally informing the families and they come to terms with the lose of their loved once.

[Sicanta]

Aarti Tikoo Singh - BREAKING @ians_india: Some Indian Army officers & soldiers are MISSING; they were probably held captive by Chinese Army during the violent face-off at LAC in Galwan Valley of Ladakh, according to sources. PLA is threatening to throw them off a hill to inflict massive casualties.

https://twitter.com/AartiTikoo/status/1 ... 01825?s=19

[Philip]

As I surmised,there was a sudden attack upon our Col. CO who was overseeing the de- escalation. We must target their officer cadre in retaliation and make it difficult for them to identify ours.

Once again the words of Mao after the annexation of Tibet." Next the 5 fingers,Ladakh,Nepal,Bhutan,Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh."
The shifting of their crack Lt.Gen.to Ladakh should've been a warning to us.
What difference in war how the fnemy is killed? Why are our TV channels making such a big deal about " no shots fired"?! If you slit his throat with a knife ,club him to death,etc. it is a mortal attack.It is nothing other than WAR! Can't our myopic MEA Delhi Durbar establishment understand who we are dealing with and that diplomacy of the type tried out over the last 48 years ,including PM Modi's extravaganza's were totally useless in the face of repeated Chinese chicanery,double-speak,backstabbing and now a new kind of deadly betrayal," back- clubbing"!

Time to send Jaishankar to Taipei,better still send him to Khan Market to buy some Chinese take- away and send Gen.V.K.Singh in his place ! It is past time for Rotary speakers to wind up their speeches and " jaw-jaw".
The next line of diplomacy rhymes with the above,better in the hands of professional soldiers.

We are trying to organise a nation- wide " China- QUIT INDIA"
movement,will keep you posted. The time has come for all Indians to put their differences aside ( RG ,are you listening?) and stand shoulder- to- shoulder with our gallant soldiers,the govt. of the day and send the Chinese shitworms and their fuhrer the message," QUIT INDIA"!

[Ambar]

There are few "known" handles that are best not quoted for any news during normal times let alone for news related to serious security matters in times like these.. Lt Gen HS Panag, Adm.Laximinarayan Ramdas, Col Ajay Shukla, Pravin Sawhney, Aarti Tikoo to name a few. Even if 10% of what they say is true they will ensure the facts are molded to fit their narrative for maximum damage against India.

[Cyrano]

It could very well be that Chinese troops disengaging were frustrated their objectives were not achieved, and anticipated repercussions from their hierarchy upon getting back to base. This could explain the sequence of events which seems that they were following the agreed protocol for disengagement, drew back and then turned around and attacked our CO and jawans in a cowardly attempt. Then our remaining troops came in to defend their jawans being attacked and must have counter attacked and a free for all ensued leading to casualties on both sides. Perhaps some soldiers, ours / theirs or both, also fell off the path (it was dusk/night time) into ravines given the topography is a steep valley.

Aggressors frustration at being stymied seems to be the cause as per the information we have at the moment.

[RKumar]

OT:
Of course, Modi ji must be available to comment on every incident without taking the stock of the situation and must develop the skills of putting his foot in the mouth.

On a serious note, it is an expected turn of events and a major escalation by China as I mentioned on 7th June. They can not redraw the LAC as per their perceptions and when we demand them to return to pre-April 2020 positions. They are claiming current status should be the new LAC and India must not develop infrastructure on its side because it makes them nervous. While they can build anything on their forcefully occupied side. Chinese have increased the stakes and we will respond in kind.

Om Shanti to departed brave souls. Indian braves are not afraid of war - be it any country, we stood against USA in 1971; they sweat their blood to prepare for it during the peacetime and prove their mettle in the field to achieve fame, glory and victory for their motherland and family.

Jai Hind!!

[Sicanta]

Aarti didn't seem to be in same category as the rest. She seems like a sane individual. She did her best to put forward our narrative during a recent US Congress hearing

[rsangram]

On a serious note, I for one, prefer to die attacking, rather than defending.

I also prefer dying on Chinese Territory rather than Indian territory.

I also have a high tolerance for casualty the first time and the second time and the third time.......because even losing a war and taking high casualty while inflicting even reasonable casualty on the other side, will in the long run deter larger casualties that otherwise would occur as a result of "passivity".

I am not sure, but it is worth a calculated test that the Chinese Army's tolerance threshold of casualties is fare below our own...or we should make it so

[Deans]

There are few "known" handles that are best not quoted for any news during normal times let alone for news related to serious security matters in times like these.. Lt Gen HS Panag, Adm.Laximinarayan Ramdas, Col Ajay Shukla, Pravin Sawhney, Aarti Tikoo to name a few. Even if 10% of what they say is true they will ensure the facts are molded to fit their narrative for maximum damage against India.

In addition All chinese news outlets - which are all mouthpieces of the CCP. And of course, our usual suspects - Burkha, Rajdeep, NDTV

[Sicanta]

https://twitter.com/AdityaRajKaul/statu ... 33122?s=09

Lots of speculation. What I know so far: 36 Indian soldiers reportedly were captured after violent clashes yesterday by China near LAC. Most returned. A Major and a Captain still in Chinese PLA custody. Negotiation underway at Major General level in Ladakh for their release.