India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 16 Jun 2020 22:55

INDIAN ARMY: Indian & Chinese troops have disengaged at Galwan area where they had earlier clashed on the night of 15/16 June 2020. 17 Indian troops who were critically injured in the line of duty have succumbed to their injuries, taking total that were killed in action to 20.

https://twitter.com/AdityaRajKaul/statu ... 21899?s=19

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 16 Jun 2020 22:56

guys news is developing. Unless it was preplanned by one side and other side was totally unprepared (whatever maybe the side), it will be comparable causalities on both side, max being 2x to 3x (if that). Yes, there could be treachery the first time and if we were stab in the back, and with some 20-40 casuality, that is a less number...only if this does not happen second time. Bonus would be if we avenge this (but that can wait in grand scheme of things if this leads to real de-escalation)

However going by the report, we have given back as good as we got and then some. Let's see how it progresses from here.

chandrasekaran · Post by **chandrasekaran** » 16 Jun 2020 22:57

What does the "disengaged" really mean ? I interpret it as both sides have receded as was agreed earlier ?

khan · Post by **khan** » 16 Jun 2020 22:59

ldev wrote:Speculative but possible, that IA was told to "enforce" the agreement and push the PLA out of the Galwan valley resulting in this clash. If they have indeed been pushed out and India has got control, then this clash has in fact been a success. But let us wait for confirmation and further news.

Yes. GOI needs to now thread the needle in the statement, they need to play the victim, honor the dead, but somehow emerge victorious.

There is probably a ferocious debate going on right now about whether to officially release the number of Chinese dead.

greatde · Post by **greatde** » 16 Jun 2020 23:00

Why is only the Indian side telling numbers, why so many leaking out of details? It should be confidentiality, or ambiguity like - some casualties.

Currently, India has X deaths, while the other side has nothing to something. That only leads to panic, dhoti shivering in the Indian side. The narrative has to be maintained.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 16 Jun 2020 23:01

Two press conferences by the indian military and so far no info on whether there were any captured/unaccounted soldiers, cause of death, current position, who attacked first, wtf happened? etc etc.

The communist chinese govt is never going to reveal any genuine facts so good luck to anyone waiting for their side of the story.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 16 Jun 2020 23:01

For years, India has been proposing border talks to resolve the issues and convert LAC to and agreed border. Even EAM Jaishankar who was formerly our Ambassador to China, mentioned this on multiple forums since he took over as EAM. China has been ignoring these proposals to keep the issue festering, hoping to either:
A. Keep nibbling away Indian territory as usual, or
B. Ignite some border friction at an inappropriate time for us and create leverage or bargaining chips.

Its not clear what made them trigger the current standoff but with the latest events leading to loss of lives, they are obliged to play their card for real and come out in the open with a position.

Though my blood boils at the loss of our soldiers, upon pausing to reflect, I see an opportunity.

In the coming days, we should focus on escalating the "issue", not the "conflict". Instead of seeking revenge for the sake of revenge, India should push for a settlement of borders so that China can no longer benefit by keeping this matter purposefully vague, and both sides can move on to other useful pursuits.

Wouldn't that be a better outcome for the lives already lost rather than escalating the "conflict" with more lives lost and uncertain outcomes. In my view, definitely worth a shot.

Even Krishna tried to make truce before the Mahabharata war.

Shaktimaan · Post by **Shaktimaan** » 16 Jun 2020 23:02

What are these "Chinese intercepts indicating 43 casualties on their side" that are being quoted in the media? Last thing we want is for us to reveal our SIGINT capabilities to the world.

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 16 Jun 2020 23:03

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 396873.cms

At least 20 Indian Army personnel and 43 Chinese troops were killed in Galwan Valley in eastern Ladakh on Monday night during a violent military faceoff along the LAC

bkswarti · Post by **bkswarti** » 16 Jun 2020 23:04

greatde wrote:Why is only the Indian side telling numbers, why so many leaking out of details? It should be confidentiality, or ambiguity like - some casualties.

Currently, India has X deaths, while the other side has nothing to something. That only leads to panic, dhoti shivering in the Indian side. The narrative has to be maintained.

China will never reveal the numbers. Specially if they suffered a higher casualty.

The fact that they are dead silent tells me they have suffered quite a few losses on their side.
Let’s wait for our Army to put forth a statement.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 16 Jun 2020 23:04

^ amar, buddy you just don't understand haha

India and China are two distinct civilisations. Do you understand the meaning of this?

It took an official Israeli diplomat to tell me what that means. There is an article by him somewhere. He was basically calling indians naive and spoon feeding Indians into acknowledging that the clash was inevitable even if indians pretend not to. I'll post the article if I find it.

chandrasekaran · Post by **chandrasekaran** » 16 Jun 2020 23:05

When is the Raksha Mantri going to make a statement ? He should face the press and explain. Whatever be the losses on the Chineese side, 20 army men killed and many others wounded, propriety demands that the RM meets the press and gives out a statement.

Sumair · Post by **Sumair** » 16 Jun 2020 23:06

"several Indian soldiers, including four officers, are missing and could have been taken captive by a vastly larger Chinese force. Their status is still not known

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... aign=cppst

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jun 2020 23:06

Do we need to 'speculate ' such things? I meant about IA being asked to enforce agreement.

chandrasekaran · Post by **chandrasekaran** » 16 Jun 2020 23:08

Speculation runs wild because the communication so far has been disastrous.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 16 Jun 2020 23:09

While Indian army is slugging it out, we have BJP and Cong going at each other in front of some Chinese puke on India Today TV. Disgusting. Makes me hang my head in shame. These Cong b@stards must by hung by their b@lls and thrown out of the country

Sonugn · Post by **Sonugn** » 16 Jun 2020 23:12

As per WION news, China had constructed a structure at PP14, this has been destroyed by IA.

https://twitter.com/palkisu/status/1272 ... 8917315585

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 16 Jun 2020 23:15

Was it a company, platoon or battalion of the IA that was ambushed?

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 16 Jun 2020 23:16

China annexes 60 square km of India in Ladakh as simmering tensions erupt between two superpowers

By Joe Wallen New Delhi ; Sophia Yan Beijing and Ben Farmer Islamabad

China has occupied more than sixty square kilometres of Indian territory in eastern Ladakh, according to a senior Indian Army source, in a dramatic escalation of the simmering tension between the two Asian superpowers.

The Daily Telegraph can reveal that up to 12,000 Chinese troops pushed over the border into India last month amid border clashes as Beijing looks to slap down Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi over his ever-closer relationship with the United States.

Whenever all this is over, the least our "deep state" can do is stop these rags from spreading their own cooked up lies by their journalists in Delhi. We really need to figure out how the info war works and how to mold it to our needs.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 16 Jun 2020 23:18

India of 2020 doesn't have a fragile ego to escalate the conflict to prove something to others or itself. We could be criticised for being naive, forgiving and conciliatory in the past, but the India and Indian leadership (be it NaMo, Shah, Jaishankar, Rajnath, Goyal, Gadkari, Smriti...) I see at present is one of quiet confidence. They don't need to show bravado and act big to look big. They are BIG in their heads, and India is BIG in their hearts. I think we are able to look beyond today or tomorrow, further into the future.

Xi will react like the dictator he is, NaMo will act like the statesman he is.

What ultimately matters is tranquility on the borders as we want to draw them. So if the gains that can be achieved by giving a bigger bloody nose can be achieved with less effort and cost, why not ?

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 16 Jun 2020 23:19

Btw has USA released a statement offering to 'mediate' like they always do? especially from twitter account of 'Commander-In-Chief'

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 16 Jun 2020 23:20

CRamS wrote:their b@lls

Sold theirs and ours to the highest bidder during their 60 year reign, we are slowly regaining ours, there is no hope for them

chandrasekaran · Post by **chandrasekaran** » 16 Jun 2020 23:21

Communication is key. I have no doubts that we have a nationalistic team at the helm. However the main issue is clarity of communication. That has been sorely lacking.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 16 Jun 2020 23:21

Look it is in West interest that India china fight. They have more leverage in India through the Gandis and shooklas and hence the reporting

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 16 Jun 2020 23:23

Its just AM in the US. But may be it will get lost in the deluge of the BingeTweeter.

khan · Post by **khan** » 16 Jun 2020 23:24

This is Nitin’s latest take: https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 53730?s=21

Apparently, the Chinese didn’t like withdrawing & started a brawl that lasted hours.

Shivaji · Post by **Shivaji** » 16 Jun 2020 23:25

As per Saurav Jha tweet below, PLA was the aggressor.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1272936777892818945
"The aggressor was very much the PLAGF, which has done a Cho La redux. Our troops stuck to disengagement protocols whereas the Chinese did not."

I think China wants to provocate a short war and Pakistan would join on LOC. With Wuhan virus, US elections, many additions to our armoury in near future, this is the moment China thinks it can punish us.

They probably want to follow 1962 template where China cut Nehru down to size with 1962 defeat. After short skirmish, they would have enough time to placate us before US goes full throttle against China.

Loss of our soldiers is saddening but I think if there was a "time and place of our choosing" moment, then it is this. I have full faith in GOI to make the best decision.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 16 Jun 2020 23:25

Mort Walker wrote:Was it a company, platoon or battalion of the IA that was ambushed?

Good luck trying to scout this bit of info from the IAS dufus in charge of the indian press releases.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 16 Jun 2020 23:26

Some reports indicate 55 IA were ambushed by 300 PLA. Others are saying, IA: 3 died immediately, 17 in hospital, another 145 seriously wounded, 45 captured and 25 released. What are the correct numbers do we know at this point?

nam · Post by **nam** » 16 Jun 2020 23:26

As I mentioned in my earlier post, the PLA had constructed a permanent structure on PP14. This is to make it visible as Chinese position on satellites. Defining the line. We destroyed it.

In return PLA attacked. This is pre-meditated attack. Pure and simple. Not a accidental clash.

This is similar habit of PLA as seen with Soviet clashes.

Unfortunately given the CCP control over narrative, PLA officers will never come to know the real history of any incident.

The only way to deal with this is retaliate hard.

Pashupatastra · Post by **Pashupatastra** » 16 Jun 2020 23:28

amar_p wrote:India of 2020 doesn't have a fragile ego to escalate the conflict to prove something to others or itself. We could be criticised for being naive, forgiving and conciliatory in the past, but the India and Indian leadership (be it NaMo, Shah, Jaishankar, Rajnath, Goyal, Gadkari, Smriti...) I see at present is one of quiet confidence. They don't need to show bravado and act big to look big. They are BIG in their heads, and India is BIG in their hearts. I think we are able to look beyond today or tomorrow, further into the future.

Xi will react like the dictator he is, NaMo will act like the statesman he is.

What ultimately matters is tranquility on the borders as we want to draw them. So if the gains that can be achieved by giving a bigger bloody nose can be achieved with less effort and cost, why not ?

Hope the parents and loved ones of the martyrs can understand your viewpoint . If the death of soldiers does not strike at our ego , then what will ? Dictators need to be taught a lesson if democracies are to show the real strength of free people.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 16 Jun 2020 23:28

I guess we're missing a point here... We're only concentrating on Modi but not of Xi...

43 PLAGF soldiers died in a clash with India...
Two points here--->
1) If Chinese were the aggressors, it was botched up plan...
2) If Indians were the aggressors, it was a surprise they were not expecting...

Either ways, there will be huge pressure on him to order a retaliation...
If he doesn't order a retaliation and actually de-escalate now as being being demanded by India, his position will be weakened...

Chinese response should be seen now... I doubt this will end anytime soon...

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 16 Jun 2020 23:29

Mort Walker wrote:Was it a company, platoon or battalion of the IA that was ambushed?

Its all a speculation at this point but given the numbers of around 55-60 soldiers on our side and over 300+ on the Chinese side it sounds like it was a company.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 16 Jun 2020 23:29

Mort sir, tell me what numbers you like (because any other number will not satisfy you). I will get the yes on your number directly from Mudi ji and promptly report here.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 16 Jun 2020 23:34

Ambar wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:Was it a company, platoon or battalion of the IA that was ambushed?
Its all a speculation at this point but given the numbers of around 55-60 soldiers on our side and over 300+ on the Chinese side it sounds like it was a company.

A company headed by a Colonel?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 16 Jun 2020 23:35

true, and the fact is getting reported by govt officials. What else do you want?

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 16 Jun 2020 23:36

Guys, please edit your respective posts. Why get banned unnecessarily?
This is the time to stay calm and cool. Let the professionals do their work.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 16 Jun 2020 23:36

LakshmanPST wrote:I guess we're missing a point here... We're only concentrating on Modi but not of Xi...

43 PLAGF soldiers died in a clash with India...
Two points here--->
1) If Chinese were the aggressors, it was botched up plan...
2) If Indians were the aggressors, it was a surprise they were not expecting...

Either ways, there will be huge pressure on him to order a retaliation...
If he doesn't order a retaliation and actually de-escalate now as being being demanded by India, his position will be weakened...

Chinese response should be seen now... I doubt this will end anytime soon...

Thank you for this post. While rightly lamenting our losses and mourning for our martyrs we have forgotten that the enemy has been given a sound beating. Chinese are masters of propaganda who can hide tens of thousands of pandemic related deaths in the industrial heartland of china, so hiding 40 or 50 deaths of their soldiers in a remote mountain land is no big deal for them. But we must never forget despite the losses of our soldiers India has proved that there is a cost that China needs to bear and an escalation ladder that China needs to climb everytime they try to encroach our territory.

stephen · Post by **stephen** » 16 Jun 2020 23:37

The most influential parts of the world will be waking up, if we want our narrative to dominate then the govt. should put out a presser explaining the relevant facts so that it is the one that is reported, the chinese are already at a disadvantage in putting out facts, by virtue of being chinese, so we should go all out and seize this, or else all that will be reported is 20 Indian Armymen getting killed in clashes with the chinese. We really need a good media management team at this hour.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 16 Jun 2020 23:38

From Shiv Aroor on Twitter:

Quick thread of what happened. This from the same source that gave me the first info earlier today.

Token disengagement following Lt Gen talks. Mid-week, Chinese CAME BACK, set up camp on Indian side. India dismantled camp. Scuffle breaks. 2IC of the battalion injured. 1/n

Chinese went back. Returned in larger numbers over weekend. Some stone pelting on Sunday too. Monday evening clashes break out on a ridgeline with a high drop to Shyok River. Escalated rapidly. Many Indian soldiers fall into river. 2/n

Hand to hand fighting continues late into the night. Heavy use of stones and metal clubs with barbed wire. Many head injuries. Fighting stops well after midnight. In darkness, several bodies fished from river. Many injured succumb by morning, later. 3/n

Definite fatalities on Chinese side too. Indian troops were surrounded across 2 zones in a camp with heavy fighting, including on the ridge line. CO was part of the clash on the ridge. 4/4

The Chinese moved earthmoving equipment/bulldozers up a higher hill feature overlooking the area where the bloodletting happened. The details will be out soon. Deepest condolences to the 20 confirmed dead. There will be an update on that front too.