India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

[khan]

Just shoot these MF's. Even if it escalates it will prevent further losing of territory inch by inch

I agree with this. If they decide to escalate, they should not do half measures.

[yensoy]

Google earth image facing the Galwan River and Valley. The yellow line in the foreground is the road to DBO. The action probably happened on the right hand bank of the Galwan river or on top of the ridge with the almost cliff like drop down to the Shyok river. The redline running along the ridge top is the LAC which the Chinese are disputing and claiming the entire Galwan valley as their territory. Inhospitable terrain at an altitude of 14,000 feet.
https://i.ibb.co/BNGFMdP/Google-Earth-Galwan-Shyok.jpg

I had made the point several pages ago (possibly in the earlier thread) that the Galwan valley is itself uninteresting and we should be occupying the heights above so we could roll a boulder down on their party. Particularly important are the heights on the southern side of Galwan where the LAC goes along the ridge line. Chinese control of this ridge will be a huge pain in the neck for us in the future.

[YashG]

I guess we're missing a point here... We're only concentrating on Modi but not of Xi...

43 PLAGF soldiers died in a clash with India...
Two points here--->
1) If Chinese were the aggressors, it was botched up plan...
2) If Indians were the aggressors, it was a surprise they were not expecting...

Either ways, there will be huge pressure on him to order a retaliation...
If he doesn't order a retaliation and actually de-escalate now as being being demanded by India, his position will be weakened...

Chinese response should be seen now... I doubt this will end anytime soon...

This 43 soldiers died is a hearsay. Even some sources (ANI) who have quoted number say 43 casualties including dead.
We can imagin 43 dead to make ourselves feel nice but our 20 dead and counting is reality. We intercepted thr communicatinos for 43 dead! We never intercept their transgression plans or intrusions but this and are caught by surprise.

[NRao]

I had made the point several pages ago (possibly in the earlier thread) that the Galwan valley is itself uninteresting and we should be occupying the heights above so we could roll a boulder down on their party. Particularly important are the heights on the southern side of Galwan where the LAC goes along the ridge line. Chinese control of this ridge will be a huge pain in the neck for us in the future.

The Chinese are claiming Ladakh, forget Galwan Valley or the ridge along the LAC.

Time for India to say Aksai Chin (forget the ridge).

[Davidrock]

From the google maps, Galwan river vally for us is like the Neelam vally for pakistan. We have a narrow sliver of land to be protected on the east of the river which is 2-4km from dotted line that I can see in google maps from outside India. With a river behind you, extremely hard to fight.

There is no clarity about where is our claim line and where is chinese claim line.

Google maps also shows a road called "Road to SSN", on the banks of the river which is at best 5-6 km from dotted line in the nearest point. Can somone tell if this is the DSDBO road ?

PS: how can I upload images to this thread ? Cant see any option

Sir ...its not 2 to 4 km ... from the confluence of galwan nullah and shyok the LAC is atleast 1.5 days walk with ponies... btw in army its called galwan nullah. But yes ... the road is under observation of chini but its usefulness remains as it allows us to move quickly. Chini is not worried abt dsdbo road as much as it is worried about feeder roads radiating from dsdbo rd to lac as it allows easier access to lac

I checked google maps again, and wrt the clash site as mentioned in the report by Nithin Goekhle, that site is 4.5 km from the shyok river bank(east) .
Unfortunately cant update image

[NRao]

https://youtu.be/j3gkf7nz6T8

(PM Modi review LCA)

YT cannot upload in the US, can anyone else provide a better link?

Thx

[yensoy]

This 43 soldiers died is a hearsay. Even some sources (ANI) who have quoted number say 43 casualties including dead.
We can imagin 43 dead to make ourselves feel nice but our 20 dead and counting is reality. We intercepted thr communicatinos for 43 dead! We never intercept their transgression plans or intrusions but this and are caught by surprise.

You are confusing two very different things. Any kind of tactical plan is made in secrecy, probably thousands of km away, communication possibly only face to face.

OTOH, a wartime cry for help - request for evacuation - will be made over whatever frequency is available. Secure communications don't travel far - see for instance your wifi router, or even your phone which reaches to a cell tower a km or so away. If you need help from afar, you use short wave/HF radio. This can be intercepted. Bodies on the ground can be counted. Helicopter trips can be seen and counted.

I don't think 43 is without basis. We will never get confirmation from the other side. We never got confirmation from Balakot. This drama will go on because we are dealing with two opaque systems with our neighbours and we shouldn't try to expect them to play by our rules. Let's put the provenance of the count at rest and go with the 35/43 estimate for now. Give credit to our jawans for delivering a good counterpunch and move on.

[ldev]

Google earth image facing the Galwan River and Valley. The yellow line in the foreground is the road to DBO. The action probably happened on the right hand bank of the Galwan river or on top of the ridge with the almost cliff like drop down to the Shyok river. The redline running along the ridge top is the LAC which the Chinese are disputing and claiming the entire Galwan valley as their territory. Inhospitable terrain at an altitude of 14,000 feet.
https://i.ibb.co/BNGFMdP/Google-Earth-Galwan-Shyok.jpg

I had made the point several pages ago (possibly in the earlier thread) that the Galwan valley is itself uninteresting and we should be occupying the heights above so we could roll a boulder down on their party. Particularly important are the heights on the southern side of Galwan where the LAC goes along the ridge line. Chinese control of this ridge will be a huge pain in the neck for us in the future.

And here is the view from the ridge on the Chinese side of the LAC. The LAC runs along the ridge. Look at the sheer drop below into the Galwan river. And the view the Chinese have of the DBO Road. It is at this point that the DBO road is most vulnerable.

[NRao]

Secure communications don't travel far - see for instance your wifi router, or even your phone which reaches to a cell tower a km or so away.

Nope. They can travel as far as desired.

"Secure communications" is a matter of encryption at source and decryption at target. Distance has nothing to do wth it.

We do it every day. 24x7

[yensoy]

Secure communications don't travel far - see for instance your wifi router, or even your phone which reaches to a cell tower a km or so away.

Nope. They can travel as far as desired.
"Secure communications" is a matter of encryption at source and decryption at target. Distance has nothing to do wth it.
We do it every day. 4x7

With multiple hops, yes. Point to point without a wire/fibre, no.

[manjgu]

The only thing we know right now for certain is that the chinese side attacked first and overwhelmed the indian side at each junction. This isn't new. They did the same thing in 62 when they swarmed into india with massive troops overwhelming the few indian police posts at various intersection.
They are clearly counting/tracking our troops and assets position every single day.

If this is premeditated, then it's not a matter of the troops acting up due to stress.

Another thing to learn is to keep close track of enemy troops and always ensure numerical or strategic advantage so that such actions can be inflicted on them. This is the difference between a good poker player and a good poker player who counts cards.

numerical superiority is achieved thru good infra, good communications and good planning espicially in mountains where u can only keep so many soldiers. the chini thru their better infra can quickly shift numbers from one place to another... the 1962 massive troops narrative is a false one to cover up our own failures... we could not reinforce our positions ...we could not move our own troops due to poor infra... we tried to defend indefensible positions as part of forward policy...we tried to defend every inch and ended up defending nothing.

even 1 soldier killed is too high a price to pay..hopefully the 20 open our eyes to reality. there is no hindi chini bhai bhai... ramp up the economy.. build the infra.. are the forces properly and have a long term plan to counter chini/paki ( 2) front and the .5 traitors inside.

actually the thing i really appreciate is the chini sense of timing ... all their moves are timed to certain events to the detriment of enemy.

[NRao]

Nope. They can travel as far as desired.
"Secure communications" is a matter of encryption at source and decryption at target. Distance has nothing to do wth it.
We do it every day. 4x7

With multiple hops, yes. Point to point without a wire/fibre, no.

It is "weak", but, doable - which means it can be hacked.

But, along the LAC I would think Satcom is the best way to communicate. And, that can be secured. I very much doubt you will find civilian towers around Galwan Valley.

SpaceX could fill the U.S. military’s secure Arctic satellite communications (SATCOM) gap by this year

Working with it.

[khan]

PM Modi now has a very thorny problem to untangle.

The Chinese have superior logistics on their side for any small localized conflict, where they would need to move more 10’s of thousands of troops around.

If they need to move 100’s of thousands of troops around (especially for months), they are at a disadvantage (because of the logistics trail) thru Tibet.

So, if India wants to fight and win, it will have to be a big fight, not these little skirmishes.

[manjgu]

Sir ...its not 2 to 4 km ... from the confluence of galwan nullah and shyok the LAC is atleast 1.5 days walk with ponies... btw in army its called galwan nullah. But yes ... the road is under observation of chini but its usefulness remains as it allows us to move quickly. Chini is not worried abt dsdbo road as much as it is worried about feeder roads radiating from dsdbo rd to lac as it allows easier access to lac

I checked google maps again, and wrt the clash site as mentioned in the report by Nithin Goekhle, that site is 4.5 km from the shyok river bank(east) .
Unfortunately cant update image

the indian territory runs for long inside the galwan nullah... and then into another nullah towards the LAC... i dont think IA has plans/ or will be allowed to use DBO road for long if the ballon goes up. and i think thats the reason BRO is developing a safer but vv difficult alternate route to DBO thru panamic...

[khan]

Sourav Jha is saying watch for Sikkim as well.

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/127 ... 69216?s=21

Reserves may have been pushed in again. In my view, one should watch the situation in Sikkim very closely as well.

[NRao]

Sourav Jha is saying watch for Sikkim as well.

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/127 ... 69216?s=21

Reserves may have been pushed in again. In my view, one should watch the situation in Sikkim very closely as well.

India does not want any territory ......................................... sure, China (Pakistan?) acts and India reacts.

Very predictable.








Nations have interests.

[Rony]

X-post

The Chin's think they can HIDE their casualties & Fatalities in 2020 -- but there's always someone with a ear to the ground either humint or techint or other mean's -- like "Harvard" counting the CARS parked in the WOOHAN parking lots ...

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-repor ... in-decades

If Chin's/Pakis think open source Indian OSINT are posting BS ...

US -- Sat's are ALSO paying attention ... This means that THIS is making quite a few WAVES in DC, Maryland, etc ..

>>
American intelligence believes 35 Chinese troops died, including one senior officer, a source familiar with that assessment tells U.S. News. The incident took place during a meeting in the mountainous region between the two sides – both of which had agreed to disarm – to determine how the two militaries would safely withdraw their presences from the region.


The meeting grew tense and resulted in a physical confrontation between the troops. According to the assessment, all of the casualties were from the use of batons and knives and from falls from the steep topography, the source says.

According to the U.S. assessment, the Chinese government considers the casualties among their troops as a humiliation for its armed forces and has not confirmed the numbers for fear of emboldening other adversaries, the source says.
<<

As per GOI & Major Gaurav Arya -- 43 Chinese are ON the way to share the same Paki Hoor's ..

Being a mountaineer/climber, ONCE you slip on STEEP -- moving scree, there is NOTHING to stop you -- very very few firm rock outcroppings or GREEN BELAYS are available in High Alpine Areas .. Rock Fall from moving scree is huge hazard ..

I have seen Microwave size rocks start moving and then keep on Bouncing for 4000' till bottom. Biggest Rock fall I witnessed was a VW Bug size boulder tumble down from ~ 8600' down to valley floor at 3000'.

While descending scree we practice scree skiing .. takes some skill and cojones as the ground is moving ..

[Davidrock]

I too dont believe that our troops could have been captured.

But it is hard to believe that even after 1.5 months, we were not carrying alternate weapons.
what happened to the khukri etc, we should have chopped some heads of those MFs

In the may 5-6 clash, 70 trooops were injured, we only had video of 1 of their soldier beaten up.
if we cannot overpower them in one location, lets respond in some other.

Its time to escalate. Our deterrence is defined by the willingness to fight...

[stephen]

This whole "chinese betrayed us after talks" almost sounds goofish.

This is the part that irritates me the most, whether it is spoken umpteen times by our news channel or by politicians or for that matter anyone else, the Chinese did not betray us, they are just being Chinese,, this is how they act. Your trust cannot be broken if you do not give them any trust, we are the one's who mistake their not acting aggressive as a sign of reconciliation and recognition.

[khan]

This whole "chinese betrayed us after talks" almost sounds goofish.

This is the part that irritates me the most, whether it is spoken umpteen times by our news channel or by politicians or for that matter anyone else, the Chinese did not betray us, they are just being Chinese,, this is how they act. Your trust cannot be broken if you do not give them any trust, we are the one's who mistake their not acting aggressive as a sign of reconciliation and recognition.

Yes, I think it’s time to change the ROE’s. This fistfight plays to their strengths of cost-less probing around. It’s time to impose costs on them.

Maybe unilaterally modify the ROE to allow firing whenever there is an attempted change in the status quo on disputed territory. Let the patrols do fist-fights, but when they build permanent structures than use artillery.

[abhik]

Sourav Jha is saying watch for Sikkim as well.

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/127 ... 69216?s=21

Reserves may have been pushed in again. In my view, one should watch the situation in Sikkim very closely as well.

While we on BRF, and Indian civilians in general are trying to piece together what happened - Lets not assume that the PLA-CCP is simply licking it's wounds in the corner. They will respond or at least try some mischief elsewhere, CCP not revealing casualty numbers so as to not inflame sentiments is just plain BS. Plus our side not giving out much information is a sign that this is still an ongoing situation and we have not heard the last of it.

[Aditya_V]

First of all very sad to hear the loss for 20 soldiers dead due Chinese aggression. Without Chinese casualty proof every useful idiot and adversary is going to accuse these brave hearts as cowardice.

That is why we need to publish pictures make the Chinese to officially accept casualties( yesterday's daylight should have been used for this), if this is not done our soldiers and our army will be labelled as cowards - and we encourage other adversaries. This is where we loose the perception battle.

Our handling of this situation has been pretty foolish, sticks and stones, expecting Chinese to keep their bargains and then finally not using yesterday's daylight for proof of Chinese casualties.

Having 20 families shattered is bad enough - makes all of us feel very sad. But not publishing the proof of Chinese casualties no matter what the consequences it sullies that their sacrifice went in vain.

Having pictures and making the Chinese accept their casualties even if their official count is 1 less than Indian is very important. Our useful idiots will go to the extent of taunting Martyrs families.

And from now on no unarmed patrols- it is sheer foolishness, using of Iron rods, barbed wire etc by the Chinese is as good as fire arms.

[Sanju]

News on SM is that the troops have been given "carte blanche" powers to retaliate.

This is not over yet, i beleive this is the beginning. Something similar happened in 1967, when a new unit was taking over a Point and it was taken by the Chinese and the Unit sought permission to grab it back by force. It was given and they got it back.

[YashG]

This 43 soldiers died is a hearsay. Even some sources (ANI) who have quoted number say 43 casualties including dead.
We can imagin 43 dead to make ourselves feel nice but our 20 dead and counting is reality. We intercepted thr communicatinos for 43 dead! We never intercept their transgression plans or intrusions but this and are caught by surprise.

You are confusing two very different things. Any kind of tactical plan is made in secrecy, probably thousands of km away, communication possibly only face to face.

OTOH, a wartime cry for help - request for evacuation - will be made over whatever frequency is available. Secure communications don't travel far - see for instance your wifi router, or even your phone which reaches to a cell tower a km or so away. If you need help from afar, you use short wave/HF radio. This can be intercepted. Bodies on the ground can be counted. Helicopter trips can be seen and counted.

I don't think 43 is without basis. We will never get confirmation from the other side. We never got confirmation from Balakot. This drama will go on because we are dealing with two opaque systems with our neighbours and we shouldn't try to expect them to play by our rules. Let's put the provenance of the count at rest and go with the 35/43 estimate for now. Give credit to our jawans for delivering a good counterpunch and move on.

Fair enough I understand SoS would be made available on any frequency available. Also 43 is not without basis. Anyways sources are reporting that the real number for Chinese maybe lower. But just pedaling an estimated number like 43, will be used to suppress the cries of retaliation. Its like we did 43 casualties - so lets swallow our tears, move over our pain and suffering. Lets talk again! Why? We should retaliate to call off this bluff. "43" cant be the reason we do not give back to the Chinese.

[VikramS]

https://twitter.com/PhdParody/status/12 ... 0617269256

*update*
My source said 63 confirmed dead by the end of the day, many deaths occurred later due to exposure and complications.

=======

[khan]

First of all very sad to hear the loss for 20 soldiers dead due Chinese aggression. Without Chinese casualty proof every useful idiot and adversary is going to accuse these brave hearts as cowardice.

That is why we need to publish pictures make the Chinese to officially accept casualties( yesterday's daylight should have been used for this), if this is not done our soldiers and our army will be labelled as cowards - and we encourage other adversaries. This is where we loose the perception battle.

Our handling of this situation has been pretty foolish, sticks and stones, expecting Chinese to keep their bargains and then finally not using yesterday's daylight for proof of Chinese casualties.

Having 20 families shattered is bad enough - makes all of us feel very sad. But not publishing the proof of Chinese casualties no matter what the consequences it sullies that their sacrifice went in vain.

Having pictures and making the Chinese accept their casualties even if their official count is 1 less than Indian is very important. Our useful idiots will go to the extent of taunting Martyrs families.

And from now on no unarmed patrols- it is sheer foolishness, using of Iron rods, barbed wire etc by the Chinese is as good as fire arms.

It depends on GOI’s goals. I think GOI wants the Chinese to go back, build roads & induct more gear.

If they start releasing pictures and so on, then the Chinese might feel cornered and dig in even more.

As several folks pointed out, in the next 3-4 years, India will have a quantum better kit - especially LCH which was designed for high altitude warfare & LCA. Also, there will be logistical parity, no more of this out numbering BS.

[Deans]

I hate to read that traitor bigot puke Ajai Shookla, but has anybody followed what he puking? Is he going on a propaganda binge against ModiJi and flooded with responses form his Paki/BIF tweeple mocking ModiJi?

I would rather follow Chinese media, than Shukla, at least I know for certain which side they are on.

[AshishA]

Since when have Chinese ever released any casualty figures from any war? Even in this pandemic their casualties are a suspect. So I don't believe china is ever going to admit anything. Even if they are going to admit something it's better to increase it 2x to get the real numbers.

[sooraj]

@drapr007
·
29m
#BREAKING : Alert issued in Lahaul-Spiti and Kinnaur districts of Himachal Pradesh. Few strategic roads have been closed for civilians. Civilians are advised not to go near border areas.

@drapr007
·
1h
#BREAKING : Srinagar-Leh national highway temporary closed for civilians vehicles ahead of Sonmarg.

ANI
@ANI
·
46m
Defence Minister Rajnath Singh & Home Minister Amit Shah to also attend Prime Minister Narendra Modi's meeting with Chief Ministers of 15 states & UTs via video conferencing today. #COVID19

[vimal]

https://twitter.com/fravel/status/1272960358915989505

I can think of no armed conflict involving China where it has released casualty figures publicly at the time of the conflict. Usually, they are published years or decades later. Casualties from 1962 war only published in 1994 internal history.

[khan]

https://twitter.com/ani/status/1273122523362873346?s=21

It is assessed that the Chinese suffered a significant number of casualties in the violent face off on the night of June 15-16: Sources #IndiaChinaFaceOff

The assessment is based on the number of Chinese soldiers evacuated from the face-off location on stretchers and subsequently by ambulance vehicles on the track along the Galwan river, as also the increased Chinese helicopter movement: Sources #IndiaChinaFaceOff

Honestly, counting helicopters & ambulances is not a bad way to estimate casualties.

What I found surprising is how a numerically inferior IA force managed to do 2-3X the damage to the Chinese.

Maybe the Chinese weren’t properly acclimatized and the altitude reduced their effectiveness?

[Aarvee]

https://www.news18.com/news/india/pla-d ... 73347.html

Furious hand-to-hand fighting raged across the Galwan river valley for over eight hours on Monday night, as People’s Liberation Army assault teams armed with iron rods as well as batons wrapped in barbed wire hunted down and slaughtered troops of the 16 Bihar Regiment, a senior government official familiar with the debriefing of survivors at hospitals in Leh has told News18.

“Even unarmed men who fled into the hillsides were hunted down and killed,” one officer said. “The dead include men who jumped into the Galwan river in a desperate effort to escape.”

Government sources say at least another two dozen soldiers are battling life-threatening injuries, and over 110 have needed treatment. “The toll will likely go up,” a military officer with knowledge of the issue said.

Large numbers of dead bodies, Indian military officials say, were handed over by the PLA on Monday morning — possibly men dragged away in the course of hand-to-hand fighting, and then killed.

As more details come through, my blood boils.

[Deans]

I'd like to see our men use a Kukri next time. I hope there's a Gurkha battalion in the area. This is not to diminish in any way the fighting spirit of 16 Bihar, who took on a numerically superior and prepared enemy and inflicted heavier casualties.

[Cyrano]

There is still no official briefing by Army or GOI. Silence in this era comes at the risk of losing control over the narrative.

[khan]

There is still no official briefing by Army or GOI. Silence in this era comes at the risk of losing control over the narrative.

Zip it with this briefing nonsense. There is an undeclared war going on.

[rajpa]

Must bide our time. Our action will speak louder than their words.

[Akshay Kapoor]

I have been crying myself hoarse on twitter since April 'Please do not let soldiers patrol without weapons. Serves no tactical or strategic purpose'. When basics of soldiering are ignored because of faulty strategic appreciation then such tragedies are bound to occur.

We still continue to misread China

Here is my assessment

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/12 ... 45442?s=20

[vimal]

Some heads should roll. Even after 50 years our army and defence establishment has not learnt a single thing.

[Prem Kumar]

Did you guys notice in all incidents so far that the chinese troop strength always overpowered the indian side?

There's a rather mundane explanation for this:

1) Chinese are the aggressors. They choose the time & place for it. So, they choose places where they have a numerical superiority
2) India doesn't (for the most part) believe in firing the first shot
3) We also don't expand the theatre of conflict

So, we end up fighting in an area that the Chinese have chosen & send reinforcements to overcome the numerical mismatch

The way to fight this battle is to turn the tables. We choose both the time & place. We fire the 1st shot in those places. When they open theatre A, we react in theatre A but also open theatres B & C, inflicting severe damages to them in the first skirmishes.

The "firing 1st shot" was the Gen Hanut Singh doctrine. As others have pointed out, this needs to become an essential part of our doctrine.

[rkirankr]

Furious hand-to-hand fighting raged across the Galwan river valley for over eight hours on Monday night, as People’s Liberation Army assault teams armed with iron rods as well as batons wrapped in barbed wire hunted down and slaughtered troops of the 16 Bihar Regiment, a senior government official familiar with the debriefing of survivors at hospitals in Leh has told News18.

“Even unarmed men who fled into the hillsides were hunted down and killed,” one officer said. “The dead include men who jumped into the Galwan river in a desperate effort to escape.”

Government sources say at least another two dozen soldiers are battling life-threatening injuries, and over 110 have needed treatment. “The toll will likely go up,” a military officer with knowledge of the issue said.

Large numbers of dead bodies, Indian military officials say, were handed over by the PLA on Monday morning — possibly men dragged away in the course of hand-to-hand fighting, and then killed.

This is not believable. With even US intelligence saying we inflicted higher casualties, Death squads? really