India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 17 Jun 2020 11:59

@drapr007
·
16m
#Confirmed

Commanding Officer of the Chinese unit involved in the face-off with the Indian troops in Galwan valley is among 43 Chinese soldiers who killed in skirmish.

khan · Post by **khan** » 17 Jun 2020 12:00

rkirankr wrote:
This is not believable. With even US intelligence saying we inflicted higher casualties, Death squads? really

There is some sensationalism going on here. Any bunch on goons armed with clubs can be called a “death squad”.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 17 Jun 2020 12:01

This is war, and more the reason for India to control the narrative.

What worries me is the Chinese calculation that this is the right time to attack. The most important and deciding factor in timing one's attack is the leadership qualities of the opposing side. What made the Chinese decide that the current Indian leadership will not counter their aggression and will not call their bluff? Has Modi been too generous and bhai-bhai with the Chinese? Did the Doklam standoff teach the Chinese different lessons than the ones we hoped for?

Whatever the cost may be, there is only one honorable thing left to do for India. Escalation is no longer a choice but a necessity.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 17 Jun 2020 12:05

Lots of international conversations ongoing. Moscow trying to help resolve situation. Pompeo in Hawai to meet Yang Jiechi (Also special representative for Indian border Diplomacy). Chinese requested the meeting.

GOI want to send the message that India is ready for a fight. As I mentioned previously operational plans are ready.

There is dilemma.. are the PLA talks designed to stall for time? As delay sets in Indian army advantage getting eroded.

In any case, we’ll Know in next 24-48 hours if PRC want a war

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 17 Jun 2020 12:05

Aarvee wrote:https://www.news18.com/news/india/pla-d ... 73347.html

Furious hand-to-hand fighting raged across the Galwan river valley for over eight hours on Monday night, as People’s Liberation Army assault teams armed with iron rods as well as batons wrapped in barbed wire hunted down and slaughtered troops of the 16 Bihar Regiment, a senior government official familiar with the debriefing of survivors at hospitals in Leh has told News18.

“Even unarmed men who fled into the hillsides were hunted down and killed,” one officer said. “The dead include men who jumped into the Galwan river in a desperate effort to escape.”

Government sources say at least another two dozen soldiers are battling life-threatening injuries, and over 110 have needed treatment. “The toll will likely go up,” a military officer with knowledge of the issue said.

Large numbers of dead bodies, Indian military officials say, were handed over by the PLA on Monday morning — possibly men dragged away in the course of hand-to-hand fighting, and then killed.

As more details come through, my blood boils.

I don't know if this is because of the narrative put out by the this authors - but sounds like a cluster f***. Will be very hard to spin your way out of something like this (if they try to end things here and sweep it under the carpet).

Edit: Did to realise it was from Praveen Swami.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 17 Jun 2020 12:07

YashG wrote: This 43 soldiers died is a hearsay. Even some sources (ANI) who have quoted number say 43 casualties including dead.
We can imagin 43 dead to make ourselves feel nice but our 20 dead and counting is reality. We intercepted thr communicatinos for 43 dead! We never intercept their transgression plans or intrusions but this and are caught by surprise.

You can believe whatever you choose to believe. If you believe Chinese *official statements*, the Coronavirus killed only 4000 people in Wuhan.

Unlike us, they are not a free society. They will kill a million of their own and not admit it. They are not answerable to their grieving mothers & widows. We are answerable to ours.

Our soldiers aren't sissies. They give as good as they get, even when outnumbered. So, its eminently believable that the Chinese suffered 43 casualties, which may include 35 dead.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Jun 2020 12:07

Let us wait as official news comes out, if there is any disinformation, these guys need to be arrested after the truth comes out.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 17 Jun 2020 12:10

Aarvee wrote:https://www.news18.com/news/india/pla-d ... 73347.html

Kindly do not post anything from that snake Praveen Swami. He lies & quotes "sources" which don't exist. Recall that he worked for The Chindu.

There was once this episode where he cooked up a "grandmother crossed the LOC, resulting in a savage skirmish" story that was roundly debunked

gauravsh · Post by **gauravsh** » 17 Jun 2020 12:11

Aarvee wrote:https://www.news18.com/news/india/pla-d ... 73347.html
As more details come through, my blood boils.

If possible don't quote this guy on this forum.
Do you really think that anyone has access to "surviors" and IA is letting them talk. Look at his choice of words - "Hunted by death squads", "men jumped in to galwan to escape".

He's better in frabricating tales of runaway grandmothers.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 17 Jun 2020 12:14

YashG wrote:We intercepted thr communicatinos for 43 dead! We never intercept their transgression plans or intrusions but this and are caught by surprise.

You seem to be certain about our capabilities, on what basis?

In any case, we don't actually need to intercept comms - just monitoring the number of hepters and ambulances they used to take back their bodies is bound to provide a good estimate. There were reports that we allowed them to use hepters after a Brigadier on their side intervened. So its not that we don't have eyes on the ground. Then there may be IAF assets that went up in response to this clash - definitely we'd have some assets in the air when their hepters came to evacuate. On top of this, there are satellites.

Net net, the 43 is perhaps a good enough number and not simply an ego massage. But if we are going to wait for the Chinese to acknowledge or release a "verifiable" number, it could be a very long and lonely wait.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 17 Jun 2020 12:16

In my very humble opinion, India should initiate a savage response at the border. Kill & capture territory. Change LAC.

1) We have the advantage of numbers
2) Better acclimatized troops. This advantage will deteriorate, the longer we delay
3) Our bases are closer to the border than theirs
4) Battle hardened soldiers, compared to 1-child sissies who love to produce propaganda videos

Just like with Balakot, we use the enemy's psychology against them. If we kill a 100 Chinese soldiers & capture territory, they will not dare admit it to their people. Use it to our advantage.

Pashupatastra · Post by **Pashupatastra** » 17 Jun 2020 12:16

somdev wrote:From now on at least 10 - 20 of our troops should carry a micro Uzi concealed in their jackets with spare magazines.

It is the Indian government who has tied the hands of defence forces. During Kargil , not crossing the LOC was the reason for higher casualties , after parliament attack , the defence forces were in state of high alert for 2 years but were not given permission to go to war . The Op Parakram cost us economically and loss of soldiers due to mine planting etc. We need a decisive leader who can give a jolt to enemies like 1971. Modi is the best bet but his time of reckoning viz a viz China and Pakistan is now. We cannot continue with status quo.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 17 Jun 2020 12:19

gauravsh wrote:
Aarvee wrote:https://www.news18.com/news/india/pla-d ... 73347.html
As more details come through, my blood boils.
If possible don't quote this guy on this forum.
Do you really think that anyone has access to "surviors" and IA is letting them talk. Look at his choice of words - "Hunted by death squads", "men jumped in to galwan to escape".

He's better in frabricating tales of runaway grandmothers.

One only has to read the two chapters dedicated to India in the Mitrokhin archives books to see how sold our media has always been, with a few exceptions, of course. But the overall direction has sadly been available to the highest bidder. Looks like that hallowed tradition continues to this day, with different paymasters.

What does this idiot think - if they sent death squads with an intent to kill, we'll be sitting idle? It's not easy for someone to kill or fire the first bullet, and the Chinese troops have seen zero action over decades. They have no institutional memory of actual combat. If, despite this, they mustered the courage to form and implement "death squads", would our troops, with real and recent battle experience, be silent and take it lying down?

Rank nonsense, and it's even more nonsensical to see such trash posted in the forum*. Another "grandmother's tale" from this gent (no pun intended).

*Aarvee-ji, hope you take it in the right spirit, not picking on you as such.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 17 Jun 2020 12:22

Prem Kumar wrote:
YashG wrote: This 43 soldiers died is a hearsay. Even some sources (ANI) who have quoted number say 43 casualties including dead.
We can imagin 43 dead to make ourselves feel nice but our 20 dead and counting is reality. We intercepted thr communicatinos for 43 dead! We never intercept their transgression plans or intrusions but this and are caught by surprise.
You can believe whatever you choose to believe. If you believe Chinese *official statements*, the Coronavirus killed only 4000 people in Wuhan.

Unlike us, they are not a free society. They will kill a million of their own and not admit it. They are not answerable to their grieving mothers & widows. We are answerable to ours.

Our soldiers aren't sissies. They give as good as they get, even when outnumbered. So, its eminently believable that the Chinese suffered 43 casualties, which may include 35 dead.

I hope you're correct but is "43" going to be a reason why we will go back to talks again? Not retaliate? this "43" is being used to justify that we should not retaliate, avenge and go back to talks and also gulp down our pride.

Small skirmishes are Beijing's plan. If we escalate, we will make the cost of skirmishes unaffordable. "43" to me looks like a justification to keep talking, keep getting betrayed and play into their hands.

khan · Post by **khan** » 17 Jun 2020 12:25

16 Bihar needs to be really commended for what they did. Fought to the last man and prevailed in some of the most savage hand-to-hand combat in modern history.

khan · Post by **khan** » 17 Jun 2020 12:27

YashG wrote: I hope you're correct but is "43" going to be a reason why we will go back to talks again? Not retaliate? this "43" is being used to justify that we should not retaliate, avenge and go back to talks and also gulp down our pride.

Small skirmishes are Beijing's plan. If we escalate, we will make the cost of skirmishes unaffordable. "43" to me looks like a justification to keep talking, keep getting betrayed and play into their hands.

I agree. An escalation is in order. Time to raise the costs. If the Chinese want to get out of this without an escalation, they can unconditionally restore the April status quo.

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 17 Jun 2020 12:37

Chene companies should be banned from government tenders as tribute to Martyred Soilders : RSS affiliate to Centre

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 17 Jun 2020 12:40

In all the time that i've spent on the China Military Watch thread, posters there have commented that the moment China suffers casualities in any war with India, they'll fold. Yet I'm seeing the opposite in our case, 20 men dead & counting and such a huge uproar is raging across this country fanned by media and politicians. So that's it? The moment we see a certain number of dead, we'll do dhoti shivering, blood boiling and what not?!! This needs to stop immediately, the GOI immediately needs to gag the media before they whip up a storm which consumes all of us.

War is not a cricket game where people are keeping score of the number of dead. War is where things are done to achieve objectives. One poster, a few pages back asked "How can we claim that we control that area, when we have lost more number of soldiers?". That is precisely the point in war, you pay for objectives with blood...sometimes a huge and disproportionate amount of blood. That is the price to be paid, and it is what finally war comes down to... not words, threats, anonymous sources, comments on websites etc...but BLOOD IN EXCHANGE FOR OUR WAY OF LIFE! So we must learn to digest losses for the larger objective...As long as the Chinese flag is not flying at India Gate or over our parliment, the 20 or so men who died (regardless of whether they were beaten to death, drowned in the river or however else)... have not died in vain.

But like I said before...if we don't use this incident to make the LAC a 'hot border', then we would be dishonoring these 20 who died.

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 17 Jun 2020 12:42

khan wrote:
YashG wrote: I hope you're correct but is "43" going to be a reason why we will go back to talks again? Not retaliate? this "43" is being used to justify that we should not retaliate, avenge and go back to talks and also gulp down our pride.

Small skirmishes are Beijing's plan. If we escalate, we will make the cost of skirmishes unaffordable. "43" to me looks like a justification to keep talking, keep getting betrayed and play into their hands.
I agree. An escalation is in order. Time to raise the costs. If the Chinese want to get out of this without an escalation, they can unconditionally restore the April status quo.

Sneaky one aren't you Mr Khan.

A nice ban is in order for cretins like you!

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 17 Jun 2020 12:43

arshyam wrote:
YashG wrote:We intercepted thr communicatinos for 43 dead! We never intercept their transgression plans or intrusions but this and are caught by surprise.
You seem to be certain about our capabilities, on what basis?

In any case, we don't actually need to intercept comms - just monitoring the number of hepters and ambulances they used to take back their bodies is bound to provide a good estimate. There were reports that we allowed them to use hepters after a Brigadier on their side intervened. So its not that we don't have eyes on the ground. Then there may be IAF assets that went up in response to this clash - definitely we'd have some assets in the air when their hepters came to evacuate. On top of this, there are satellites.

Net net, the 43 is perhaps a good enough number and not simply an ego massage. But if we are going to wait for the Chinese to acknowledge or release a "verifiable" number, it could be a very long and lonely wait.

Yash G seems to forget, that thee was a process of de escalation and our troops went there to check verify, when this started.

habal · Post by **habal** » 17 Jun 2020 12:44

Until the Chinese come up with their numbers we cannot presume any of them have died in first place. Secondly even we would not have announced any numbers if there were no chinese casualties. We can also hide numbers if need be. Nobody is a saint in war, afterall we also kept quite for more than 18 hrs that a confrontation took place.

China will only be dissuaded by overwhelming response and not matching response.

And in any situation between 2 armed forces, this kind of situations cannot be micromanaged by some xi sitting in beijing. In ground situation most often any tense situation gets out of hand all too often and is quickly covered up and hidden from public view.

Local PLA commander arranged a trap for the Indian CO field visit and they ambushed his troops from all given information.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 17 Jun 2020 12:44

Corroborating what shyamd said - https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/1 ... ina-322836

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 17 Jun 2020 12:50

habal wrote:Until the Chinese come up with their numbers we cannot presume any of them have died in first place. Secondly even we would not have announced any numbers if there were no chinese casualties. We can also hide numbers if need be. Nobody is a saint in war, afterall we also kept quite for more than 18 hrs that a confrontation took place.

China will only be dissuaded by overwhelming response and not matching response.

And in any situation between 2 armed forces, this kind of situations cannot be micromanaged by some xi sitting in beijing. In ground situation most often any tense situation gets out of hand all too often and is quickly covered up and hidden from public view.

Local PLA commander arranged a trap for the Indian CO field visit and they ambushed his troops from all given information.

So if we do something similar like the local PLA commander did, will China escalate?

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 17 Jun 2020 12:51

shyamd wrote:Lots of international conversations ongoing. Moscow trying to help resolve situation. Pompeo in Hawai to meet Yang Jiechi (Also special representative for Indian border Diplomacy). Chinese requested the meeting.

GOI want to send the message that India is ready for a fight. As I mentioned previously operational plans are ready.

There is dilemma.. are the PLA talks designed to stall for time? As delay sets in Indian army advantage getting eroded.

In any case, we’ll Know in next 24-48 hours if PRC want a war

Update: press reports state that Maj Gen level talks have been “suspended”.
My view is that the talks have failed as PLA did not live up to their end of the bargain.

Fear the worst. There is last minute diplomacy going on with France, Russia and US.

All eyes on Hawaii.

Stage 1: GOI shows operational readiness to fight and take back territory. (<48 hours)
Stage 2: All GOI has to do is to deliver a bloody nose to Xi and show that PRC is not invincible.

khan · Post by **khan** » 17 Jun 2020 12:52

vimal wrote:
khan wrote: I agree. An escalation is in order. Time to raise the costs. If the Chinese want to get out of this without an escalation, they can unconditionally restore the April status quo.
Sneaky one aren't you Mr Khan.

A nice ban is in order for cretins like you!

Why am I sneaky?

At this point apparently, forces have been given a free hand. If there is any more unpleasantness it will not be fist-fights - there will be an escalation & I feel it is warranted.

This mode of letting the Chinese do whatever & letting them go with a few bruises isn’t working anymore.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 17 Jun 2020 12:53

YashG: at the risk of making a political point, let me say this.

"Using 43 Chinese killed as a fig-leaf to not escalate" is not how Modi-sarkar operates. I would be inclined to believe this theory, if UPA was in power.

After surgical strikes against Myanmar, Pakistan (twice) and Doklam, the NDA govt has earned the right to be trusted when it comes to national security and taking care of our troops. If we indeed suffered disproportionate casualties vis-a-vis the Chinese, rest assured, there will be Chinese blood shed in the coming days.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 17 Jun 2020 12:55

https://twitter.com/PBNS_India/status/1 ... 1507806209 This should end different stories on casualties and also on "missing" , "captured" soldiers

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 17 Jun 2020 13:02

rkirankr wrote:https://twitter.com/PBNS_India/status/1 ... 1507806209 This should end different stories on casualties and also on "missing" , "captured" soldiers

But why is the major gen talks taking place?

Pashupatastra · Post by **Pashupatastra** » 17 Jun 2020 13:03

sajaym wrote:In all the time that i've spent on the China Military Watch thread, posters there have commented that the moment China suffers casualities in any war with India, they'll fold. Yet I'm seeing the opposite in our case, 20 men dead & counting and such a huge uproar is raging across this country fanned by media and politicians. So that's it? The moment we see a certain number of dead, we'll do dhoti shivering, blood boiling and what not?!! This needs to stop immediately, the GOI immediately needs to gag the media before they whip up a storm which consumes all of us.

War is not a cricket game where people are keeping score of the number of dead. War is where things are done to achieve objectives. One poster, a few pages back asked "How can we claim that we control that area, when we have lost more number of soldiers?". That is precisely the point in war, you pay for objectives with blood...sometimes a huge and disproportionate amount of blood. That is the price to be paid, and it is what finally war comes down to... not words, threats, anonymous sources, comments on websites etc...but BLOOD IN EXCHANGE FOR OUR WAY OF LIFE! So we must learn to digest losses for the larger objective...As long as the Chinese flag is not flying at India Gate or over our parliment, the 20 or so men who died (regardless of whether they were beaten to death, drowned in the river or however else)... have not died in vain.

But like I said before...if we don't use this incident to make the LAC a 'hot border', then we would be dishonoring these 20 who died.

Nobody is dhoti shivering but there is a genuine resentment against the Chinese and the same disgust as felt for Pakistan. Who was counting the numbers in 1965 or 1971 or 1999 ? But , somehow one beggars to think how much soldiers sacrifice to maintain the status quo be it in Kashmir or China border. We should shun the habit of fighting to maintain status quo and go on the offensive. Somehow India's ambition of being a powerhouse and a peacenik are at odds with each other. We could have started off last year on PoK after 28 Feb clashes but we care too much for international opinion. Heck , even when the parliament was attacked , our forces had to be contend with 2 years of deployment at the border.

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 17 Jun 2020 13:05

Prasar Bharati News Services
@PBNS_India
·
27m
Army Sources: Over 45 casualties on Chinese PLA side. Maj Gen level talks on to defuse Galwan situation. No Indian soldier unaccounted for-- No One Is Missing. No firing at all on Monday night.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 17 Jun 2020 13:10

rkirankr wrote:
arshyam wrote: You seem to be certain about our capabilities, on what basis?

In any case, we don't actually need to intercept comms - just monitoring the number of hepters and ambulances they used to take back their bodies is bound to provide a good estimate. There were reports that we allowed them to use hepters after a Brigadier on their side intervened. So its not that we don't have eyes on the ground. Then there may be IAF assets that went up in response to this clash - definitely we'd have some assets in the air when their hepters came to evacuate. On top of this, there are satellites.

Net net, the 43 is perhaps a good enough number and not simply an ego massage. But if we are going to wait for the Chinese to acknowledge or release a "verifiable" number, it could be a very long and lonely wait.
Yash G seems to forget, that thee was a process of de escalation and our troops went there to check verify, when this started.

But Am I blaming our soldiers? They did what was RoE was. My entire point is that skirmishes are costly to us. Escalation is costly to China. Lets do that later. Somebody said make this LAC a hot border. Yes please! Lets make Tibet the Stalingrad for Communist China, like Soviets did to Nazi Germany!

khan · Post by **khan** » 17 Jun 2020 13:10

I like Shiv Aroor, but watching him brag about being the first to “break” the Galwan “story” made me sick.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 17 Jun 2020 13:16

Prem Kumar wrote:..
After surgical strikes against Myanmar, Pakistan (twice) and Doklam, the NDA govt has earned the right to be trusted when it comes to national security and taking care of our troops. If we indeed suffered disproportionate casualties vis-a-vis the Chinese, rest assured, there will be Chinese blood shed in the coming days.

Let's not put Myanmar with pukes and doklam (China). IIRC India has good relations with Myanmar, and one incident called op sunrise was joint ops to target insurgents.
https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/sto ... 2019-06-17
Let's not complicate things. The insurgents could have been indirectly supported by Chinese because that's how Chinese do their salami slicing too.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 17 Jun 2020 13:16

Prem Kumar wrote:YashG: at the risk of making a political point, let me say this.

"Using 43 Chinese killed as a fig-leaf to not escalate" is not how Modi-sarkar operates. I would be inclined to believe this theory, if UPA was in power.

After surgical strikes against Myanmar, Pakistan (twice) and Doklam, the NDA govt has earned the right to be trusted when it comes to national security and taking care of our troops. If we indeed suffered disproportionate casualties vis-a-vis the Chinese, rest assured, there will be Chinese blood shed in the coming days.

I will not invoke the word Modi on this forum. Somehow rationality goes for a toss the moment its about political parties.

But look I agree with you - Surgical strikes, Doklam, Balakot etc. things you quote - are the very reason I want this to go the same way as before. 40 Killed in Pulwama - then came Balakot. 20+ killed in Galwan - Now something should come. Willing to wait - let govt choose a time and place of retaliation. But it should. Thats all.

Aarvee · Post by **Aarvee** » 17 Jun 2020 13:17

arshyam wrote:
*Aarvee-ji, hope you take it in the right spirit, not picking on you as such.

No problem saar, I understand. Posted just for record. Even if there is 10% truth in his article, it still hurts. IF what he said was true, to think that these effing chinkis come over to our side and kill our soldiers like cave men.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 17 Jun 2020 13:23

Imagine our bravehearts lying mortally wounded after a steep fall, an eternal wait for help to arrive, what would have been there last thoughts ?? Would he be taking some solace that his country will avenge his needless and treacherous death which he embraced while executing the will of the nation that he solemnly pledged to defend with his life. Isn't pussy-footing about a bloody response to the Chinese dishonor his sacrifice and his last hope ? How do we honor his sacrifice and his last wish ??

asinh · Post by **asinh** » 17 Jun 2020 13:24

India today showing sat images of two hundred Chinese trucks near Galwan on the 16th.

nam · Post by **nam** » 17 Jun 2020 13:36

You got to give it to the Paks & Chinis. They will go any length for their national interest. We are in constant ahimsa mode.

The Chini broke a 45 year accord to prevent us building roads. Just roads!

While we haven't said a word in all these years, when they were doing it. Most of our security problems are due to getting caught in a slumber.

We got to re-inforce the sector and go for 24/7 road building. Cannot allow the Chini to dictate the rules.

jpremnath · Post by **jpremnath** » 17 Jun 2020 13:36

vimal wrote:
khan wrote: I agree. An escalation is in order. Time to raise the costs. If the Chinese want to get out of this without an escalation, they can unconditionally restore the April status quo.
Sneaky one aren't you Mr Khan.

A nice ban is in order for cretins like you!

Care to explain why you would want to abuse a fellow forum member? I didnt see you give any valid points to explain why he is wrong.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Jun 2020 13:46

We must throw the BDCA into the dust-bin. We don't need any CBMs hereafte. If anyone remembers, it was forced down our throat by Xi when Li Keqiang came calling on his first visit. They insisted on signing it immediately. The BDCA itself was a ruse to stop our infrastructure activities on our side.

Our soldiers must be fully armed from now onwards.