India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

[samirdiw]

Have been tweeting to the PM and some ministers to ban chinese goods in honor of the martyrs. Can more folks do the same? With enough pressure from more Indians govt will be encouraged to act on it. They may not even read it but no harm trying....That's a 56 billion reduction which could go to their armed forces.

[NRao]

Rather long ..........................

India shifts China diplomacy strategy to high gear after Galwan clash, military-level talks on

For the first time in over the month-long standoff, India Wednesday said Beijing wanted to “unilaterally change the status quo” while it “departed from the consensus to respect the Line of Actual Control in the Galwan Valley”.

Following the developments, sources said, New Delhi might seek to postpone the Russia-India-China trilateral meeting that is expected to take place on 22 June. Initially scheduled for March, the tripartite summit was delayed due to the coronavirus pandemic.

As a precautionary measure, units posted all along the LAC have been asked to be extra vigilant and carry out patrols with bigger strength than before.

Sources in the security establishment Wednesday stated that several Indian soldiers were allegedly taken captive by the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) but they returned following talks at a higher level.

[bharathp]

Rising Star has begun his tenure with 43 casualties of PLA as compared to 20 casualties of the enemy. That shall be greatly appreciated in the Corridors of Beijing.---43 people are not confirmed and you can bet that what is spun to the the Chinese populace will be a very different.

2016 - To Date - Roads built right to China Border across the length of the border. China keeps murmuring.---But Chinece have overall better infra.
June'2017 - Doklam takes place.
August'19 - Article 370 abrogated. China protests change of status. Tries to raise issue in UNSC. Thwarted by diplomatic push. - What bearing does this have on what is happening now?
August'19 to Date - Neelam Valley continuously pounded. Bofors also used. CPEC projects (Chinese assets in Pakistan) under threat.--That has not stopped them from what they are doing now has it?
February'20 - India bans all flights from China in response to China virus.---That is something even if we were the friendliest of countries we would have done no?
March'20 - to Date - India choses to build Medical capacity (PPE / N95 Masks / Masks / China Virus testing kits) within the country and succeeds.---Our strategic failure is it not that such basics come from China.
April'20 - India bans automatic route for FDI / FII / PNotes from nations that it shares land border. Aimed at China. China protests.--Too little too late.
April'20 - India returns medical kits received from China.---Why did we need from them in the first place. Strategic failure on our part.
May'20 - India starts Self Reliance initiative. Obvious immediate loser - China.---What is on the ground evidence of this sol called self reliance initiative? WE cannot get small arms indegenously!!!!
May'20 - India part of the comity of nations that calls for investigation into origins of China virus. India assumes executive leadership of WHO through Dr Harshvardhan.---Everyone else had done that. What makes us unique and where is it going? What will Dr HArshvardhan be able to do?/b]
May'20 - Lipulekh is declared operational.--So what has that got us in the current stand-off?

The fact of the matter is that we have reacted.

What have we won when we have lost territory?

we have not reacted "yet"

no confirmation or news of lost territory "yet"

the game never ends as long as the country stands.

[NRao]

Here we go. Nothing beyond the title.

Ladakh face-off LIVE: China's claim over Galwan Valley untenable, says MEA

[ldev]

That's why a question mark at the end. It wasn't a statement. Now if you take the following into account, you would probably agree with me that we are "prepared for war this time".

1) Internet curtailed in some border areas.
2) Villagers evcuated from border areas.
3) Roads & Highways restricted for civilian traffic.
4) All Armed Forces leaves cancelled, need to report within 72 hours
5) Asked to report back ASAP using Civilian flights (if required), which will be reimbursed
6) Emergency powers given to the Armed Forces to deal at the LAC as they wish to
7) TriServices on the highest alert
Additional troops rushed to the LAC
9) LOC heating up even more

I am sure that I am missing out other points.

We should neither understimate nor overestimate the enemy. I have full faith in our troops that they will prevail and it will be by a distance.

Is India prepared that China lobs 200-300 short range ballistic missiles in Indian cities and towns in north and east India? With buildings destroyed, flyovers down, power down, civilian casualties and civilian life disrupted? China's objective being purely to damage civilian morale. Will it happen? Maybe not? But China has that capability. And in a war always look at capability. Intentions can change. Before the last 48 hours, not too many people thought that China would savagely launch the attack at Galwan. And yet they did. How about tomorrow when hostilities start they decide to savagely attack Indian population centers with SRBMs and IRBMs?

Yes, India is prepared for a BORDER war, targeting Chinese military targets in Tibet. Is it prepared for a war which comes into Indian cities and towns? And if it does, how will India retaliate? Yes, in the meantime concurrently forces from the 2 sides will be slugging it out at the border and the IAF will launch missile strikes into Tibet. But we have to realize that Tibet which is 40% the size of India in terms of area has a population of only 21 million whereas the area in India which Chinese short range missiles can reach has a population of 800 million. There is a new Chinese commander. He wants to show results. India's show of force and build up may force him to come to the negotiating table. Or it may not. He may be foolish and decide to go for broke. Maybe the CMC and Xi have decided that they need a war to divert attention and rally the country behind him. Maybe they feel that any adventure in the East China sea or the South China sea will draw in the US and the result could truly spiral out of their control. Besides it will put the Chinese coastal heartland at risk. And so maybe from the Chinese perspective a war with India is a safe bet. India will calibrate it's response to match China. And even if China lobs SRBMs into Indian cities and global media show widespread destruction in Indian cities to show that Xi has won, what will India do to retaliate short of going nuclear? Is all this pre-ordained? Of course not. But as they say, only the paranoid survive.

[CRamS]

I saw premier ModiJi hater, and so called retd col Ajai Shookla could barely hide has satisfaction at what happened in Galwan valley as he all but did an equal equal between ModiJi and Nehru. My gut feeling is that going forward, unless India establishes some form of dominance at Pangong lake and Galwan, these BIF pukes are going to rub it in to ModiJi. That was their sole agenda all along.

[ks_sachin]

Just because a "hot shot" young commander has come and wants to earn his spurs, doesn't mean that India is going to sit back and let him do it. --We have let him. Have you read Hari Nair sirs post?
Wonder what battle experience this commander has? --Does it matter. The same could be said of our officers commissioned after 1987.
New Tactics may look fine, but what control do you have over something you started if the enemy reacts strongly and pays you back in your coin with compound interest?--The point I am making is to your usage of the word "react". We react when we should have anticipated..
Tactically brilliant, strategically a possible Musharaff?---TIme will tell. But they are squatting on our land and China is not Pakistan.
-----------------
KS_Sachin saar, that jibe about "crocodile tears" was uncalled for. --I stand by it.
When India did surgical strike in Burma, Pakis said don't try it with us.--So?
When India did Surgical strike in response to Uri, the Pakis upped the ante with Pulwama and harvested Balakot.--Where are we going to up the ante here militarily?
I submit that It is China's turn.---Good. I hope you realise that China's turn could mean more salami slicing?

[Ambar]

Its only you who is claiming the PLA casualties to be "nonsense" on multiple threads. There are several sources Indian and foreign including China's own mouthpiece Global Times and the usual anti-India BBC that have reported there were chinese casualties. Whether it was 30,35,43 or 90 no one knows and no one ever will. You are talking about a country which until this week claimed there were no corona cases outside wuhan province even during the peak ,so silly to expect china to behave like an open, transparent democracy .

Alright, quote a trusted source which lists these 43 dead then. If you believe Global Times, then I have a bridge to sell you. Point is, folks like you are fixated with the number 43 and declare that since 43 > 20, we can claim victory. This is extremely shortsighted to get fixated on a numbers game with China. And who is asking China to give the numbers? Certainly not me and I would not trust anything that comes from their mouths and mouthpieces. Your point about Corona is OT for this thread.

Source : BBC

Don't expect any more confirmation from China
Analysis by Robin Brant, BBC News, Beijing

The official line from Beijing is that China and India have an agreement to "peacefully resolve" their Himalayan border dispute. The foreign ministry also repeated claims that Indian forces "provoked and attacked" their Chinese counterparts. But that's where the detail ends.

China has not confirmed how many of its personnel died or were injured. The Indian media has reported gruesome details. There are claims that US intelligence agencies think China suffered a loss of life in the dozens. But the closest Beijing has come to any official confirmation is a tweet from the state-run Global Times newspaper saying it has "never reported the exact casualties on the Chinese side'".

The main reason is that China just doesn't do that. Going back decades it's never given contemporaneous confirmation on military deaths outside of peacekeeping duties. Sometimes numbers have emerged, but many, many years later.

On this occasion China's propagandists may not want to fan nationalist flames at home by making much of any loss. Or they may not want to admit to a significant and demoralising loss. Or, as has long been the case, they just don't want to admit if Chinese soldiers have been killed in action.

Source : US News

American intelligence believes 35 Chinese troops died, including one senior officer, a source familiar with that assessment tells U.S. News. The incident took place during a meeting in the mountainous region between the two sides – both of which had agreed to disarm – to determine how the two militaries would safely withdraw their presences from the region.

Source : Times of India

China suffered 43 casualties in vio ..

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst

Source : Hindustan Times

China suffered 43 casualties in violent face-off in Galwan Valley, reveal Indian intercepts
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... UzrTI.html

Source : Reuters / Ministry of External Affairs

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indi ... SKBN23N0ZU

Either you are trolling or your intentions are the same as Kejwi after Balakot and his "Modiji proof kaha hain" antics.

[putnanja]

Its only you who is claiming the PLA casualties to be "nonsense" on multiple threads. There are several sources Indian and foreign including China's own mouthpiece Global Times and the usual anti-India BBC that have reported there were chinese casualties. Whether it was 30,35,43 or 90 no one knows and no one ever will. You are talking about a country which until this week claimed there were no corona cases outside wuhan province even during the peak ,so silly to expect china to behave like an open, transparent democracy .

Alright, quote a trusted source which lists these 43 dead then. If you believe Global Times, then I have a bridge to sell you. Point is, folks like you are fixated with the number 43 and declare that since 43 > 20, we can claim victory. This is extremely shortsighted to get fixated on a numbers game with China. And who is asking China to give the numbers? Certainly not me and I would not trust anything that comes from their mouths and mouthpieces. Your point about Corona is OT for this thread.

Why this fetish to trust only gora sources and not Indian ones? Also, what is wrong with propagating this number irrespective of verification to satisfy some? Many times, the fact that the chinese got a bloody nose (even if it is not confirmed to your satisfaction) is good to crumble their sense of superiority in front of other countries.

chinese and pakis routinely engage in propaganda with fake numbers trying to build up their narrative, but here in India we have holier than thou trying to cross-verify three times on whether we really did it. It was the same after surgical strikes, balakot etc.

[Sanju]

Just because a "hot shot" young commander has come and wants to earn his spurs, doesn't mean that India is going to sit back and let him do it. --We have let him. Have you read Hari Nair sirs post?
Wonder what battle experience this commander has? --Does it matter. The same could be said of our officers commissioned after 1987.
New Tactics may look fine, but what control do you have over something you started if the enemy reacts strongly and pays you back in your coin with compound interest?--The point I am making is to your usage of the word "react". We react when we should have anticipated..
Tactically brilliant, strategically a possible Musharaff?---TIme will tell. But they are squatting on our land and China is not Pakistan.
-----------------
KS_Sachin saar, that jibe about "crocodile tears" was uncalled for. --I stand by it.
When India did surgical strike in Burma, Pakis said don't try it with us.--So?
When India did Surgical strike in response to Uri, the Pakis upped the ante with Pulwama and harvested Balakot.--Where are we going to up the ante here militarily?
I submit that It is China's turn.

--Good. I hope you realise that China's turn could mean more salami slicing?

Yes, I have read his post.

After 1987, we have had the Kashmir insurgency to keep our troops blooded.

Yes, salami slicing territory currently held by them.

[Jarita]

GT is really fearing an escalation.

Just today, so far I have seen atom bomb, rocket force, chopper, article on china boycott, trade with india, threat about india millitary not as powerful as china etc...

They are not fearing anything. This is classic Chinese style disinformation campaign. The whole portal is in English and on twitter where no Chinese person would access it. It is meant for Indian and western audiences. While their soldiers are breaking agreements on all sides, Global times is trying to create a perception of "backing off", "non aggressive", "conciliatory". There is a game being played and the audience is India itself. You can put 2 and 2 together to assess what outcomes they are looking at.

[Sanju]

<snip>

Is India prepared that China lobs 200-300 short range ballistic missiles in Indian cities and towns in north and east India? With buildings destroyed, flyovers down, power down, civilian casualties and civilian life disrupted? China's objective being purely to damage civilian morale. Will it happen? Maybe not? But China has that capability. And in a war always look at capability. Intentions can change. Before the last 48 hours, not too many people thought that China would savagely launch the attack at Galwan. And yet they did. How about tomorrow when hostilities start they decide to savagely attack Indian population centers with SRBMs and IRBMs?

Yes, India is prepared for a BORDER war, targeting Chinese military targets in Tibet. Is it prepared for a war which comes into Indian cities and towns? And if it does, how will India retaliate? Yes, in the meantime concurrently forces from the 2 sides will be slugging it out at the border and the IAF will launch missile strikes into Tibet. But we have to realize that Tibet which is 40% the size of India in terms of area has a population of only 21 million whereas the area in India which Chinese short range missiles can reach has a population of 800 million. There is a new Chinese commander. He wants to show results. India's show of force and build up may force him to come to the negotiating table. Or it may not. He may be foolish and decide to go for broke. Maybe the CMC and Xi have decided that they need a war to divert attention and rally the country behind him. Maybe they feel that any adventure in the East China sea or the South China sea will draw in the US and the result could truly spiral out of their control. Besides it will put the Chinese coastal heartland at risk. And so maybe from the Chinese perspective a war with India is a safe bet. India will calibrate it's response to match China. And even if China lobs SRBMs into Indian cities and global media show widespread destruction in Indian cities to show that Xi has won, what will India do to retaliate short of going nuclear? Is all this pre-ordained? Of course not. But as they say, only the paranoid survive.

Yes and what we will sit twiddling our thumbs when they launch these missiles? You forget the IN in IOR and the IAF. The first step is to defend the borders, if China decides to start targetting the hinterland then all bets are off.

No one other than the forces & government know what exactly happened in Galwan, until I hear otherwise, it is heresay about "Before the last 48 hours, not too many people thought that China would savagely launch the attack at Galwan."

It is very easy to attack unarmed people in an ambush that too. Nothing to be proud of, infact they should be ashamed of their cowardice. That is what cowards do.

[ks_sachin]

--Good. I hope you realise that China's turn could mean more salami slicing?

Yes, I have read his post.

After 1987, we have had the Kashmir insurgency to keep our troops blooded.

Yes, salami slicing territory currently held by them.

Sanju please read up on Akshay Sir post on combat tactics. While our troops have been in the thick of it the paradigm is different. Note I am not casting aspersions but it if we keep talking down the opposition we get into a situation where underestimate them at our peril.

Why would they salami slice territory that they hold?

[Sanju]

Ks_sachin we will salami slice territory held by them, is what I meant in that post.

[williams]

That's why a question mark at the end. It wasn't a statement. Now if you take the following into account, you would probably agree with me that we are "prepared for war this time".

1) Internet curtailed in some border areas.
2) Villagers evcuated from border areas.
3) Roads & Highways restricted for civilian traffic.
4) All Armed Forces leaves cancelled, need to report within 72 hours
5) Asked to report back ASAP using Civilian flights (if required), which will be reimbursed
6) Emergency powers given to the Armed Forces to deal at the LAC as they wish to
7) TriServices on the highest alert
Additional troops rushed to the LAC
9) LOC heating up even more

I am sure that I am missing out other points.

We should neither understimate nor overestimate the enemy. I have full faith in our troops that they will prevail and it will be by a distance.

Is India prepared that China lobs 200-300 short range ballistic missiles in Indian cities and towns in north and east India? With buildings destroyed, flyovers down, power down, civilian casualties and civilian life disrupted? China's objective being purely to damage civilian morale. Will it happen? Maybe not? But China has that capability. And in a war always look at capability. Intentions can change. Before the last 48 hours, not too many people thought that China would savagely launch the attack at Galwan. And yet they did. How about tomorrow when hostilities start they decide to savagely attack Indian population centers with SRBMs and IRBMs?

Yes, India is prepared for a BORDER war, targeting Chinese military targets in Tibet. Is it prepared for a war which comes into Indian cities and towns? And if it does, how will India retaliate? Yes, in the meantime concurrently forces from the 2 sides will be slugging it out at the border and the IAF will launch missile strikes into Tibet. But we have to realize that Tibet which is 40% the size of India in terms of area has a population of only 21 million whereas the area in India which Chinese short range missiles can reach has a population of 800 million. There is a new Chinese commander. He wants to show results. India's show of force and build up may force him to come to the negotiating table. Or it may not. He may be foolish and decide to go for broke. Maybe the CMC and Xi have decided that they need a war to divert attention and rally the country behind him. Maybe they feel that any adventure in the East China sea or the South China sea will draw in the US and the result could truly spiral out of their control. Besides it will put the Chinese coastal heartland at risk. And so maybe from the Chinese perspective a war with India is a safe bet. India will calibrate it's response to match China. And even if China lobs SRBMs into Indian cities and global media show widespread destruction in Indian cities to show that Xi has won, what will India do to retaliate short of going nuclear? Is all this pre-ordained? Of course not. But as they say, only the paranoid survive.

IMHO Short range or long-range, if missiles are lobbed into Indian population centers, we will have to target Chinese cities further east and not Tibet. I am sure such MAD scenarios are all discussed in the strategic circles. Question is, are the Chinese ready to take such losses in their major population centers? The answer will be a big no. Chinese capabilities are real and so is our capability. We may not have the numbers but 10 missiles falling in Bejing will have the same effect as 50 falling in Delhi. While we should be prepared for the worst, we should not be deterred to take fierce tactical retaliatory steps for fear of the worst. Chinese should know that playing tactical games will have tactical consequences. I think years of fumbling has given them (and the Pakis for that matter) the confidence to play such games.

[fanne]

Chinese dead is in excess of number reported or floating.

[Sanju]

I have read Akshay_Kapoor's post and I am actually emboldened to say that with the right political backing and change in ROE (which, if SM is to be believed, has happened) we will deliver a resounding jhappad. I don't see any divergence from what I have posted.

[ldev]

IMHO Short range or long-range, if missiles are lobbed into Indian population centers, we will have to target Chinese cities further east and not Tibet. I am sure such MAD scenarios are all discussed in the strategic circles. Question is, are the Chinese ready to take such losses in their major population centers? The answer will be a big no. Chinese capabilities are real and so is our capability. We may not have the numbers but 10 missiles falling in Bejing will have the same effect as 50 falling in Delhi. While we should be prepared for the worst, we should not be deterred to take fierce tactical retaliatory steps for fear of the worst. Chinese should know that playing tactical games will have tactical consequences. I think years of fumbling has given them (and the Pakis for that matter) the confidence to play such games.

I am going out on a limb here and saying that as of today India does not have a conventional retaliation capability beyond some parts of Tibet. India cannot lob conventional missiles 2500 kms away in eastern China unless it uses Agni 3 and Agni 2 missiles which are specifically reserved for the nuclear strike role. And India will not dis-arm itself of it's nuclear strike option just to lob a handful of conventional warheads into eastern China. How many such missiles does India have. It is the credible minimum deterrent that is talked about. You will find that number if you look hard enough. I do not want to publicize it here. That is why I have always been in favor of a long range cruise missile with a 2500-3000 km range. The US Tomahawk is under US $ 2 million to produce per unit. That is less than Rs 15 crores. If India could have fast tracked and produced an extended range Nirbhay at Rs 15 crore a pop imagine the retaliation options.

[Aditya_V]

The Chinese clearly did the escalation, what we need is to do some localized action- time period should be open. Should be done only based on miltary requirements, terrain, ability to hold gains etc. Be prepared for Chinese escalation but do a localized operation, claim chinese provoked but do some sort ambush and capture territory.

Regarding GLCM's attacking Indian cities, the best this to do is what the Allies- England and America did in response to V1 and V2 attacks- carry the attack on the PLA, such an attack by the Chinese will be like Hitler's blitz, V1 and V2 attacks. Militarily useless and strategically a disaster. They will rather use them at our military facilities.

[Sanju]

IMHO Short range or long-range, if missiles are lobbed into Indian population centers, we will have to target Chinese cities further east and not Tibet. I am sure such MAD scenarios are all discussed in the strategic circles. Question is, are the Chinese ready to take such losses in their major population centers? The answer will be a big no. Chinese capabilities are real and so is our capability. We may not have the numbers but 10 missiles falling in Bejing will have the same effect as 50 falling in Delhi. While we should be prepared for the worst, we should not be deterred to take fierce tactical retaliatory steps for fear of the worst. Chinese should know that playing tactical games will have tactical consequences. I think years of fumbling has given them (and the Pakis for that matter) the confidence to play such games.

I am going out on a limb here and saying that as of today India does not have a conventional retaliation capability beyond some parts of Tibet. India cannot lob conventional missiles 2500 kms away in eastern China unless it uses Agni 3 and Agni 2 missiles which are specifically reserved for the nuclear strike role. And India will not dis-arm itself of it's nuclear strike option just to lob a handful of conventional warheads into eastern China. How many such missiles does India have. It is the credible minimum deterrent that is talked about.

ldev ji, attacking the hinterland means that their fleet of commercial ships are at our mercy. CCP doesn't mind losing their citizens, but their ships loaded with goods that will get them additional moolah is a different matter.

[Jay]

Why this fetish to trust only gora sources and not Indian ones? Also, what is wrong with propagating this number irrespective of verification to satisfy some? Many times, the fact that the chinese got a bloody nose (even if it is not confirmed to your satisfaction) is good to crumble their sense of superiority in front of other countries.

chinese and pakis routinely engage in propaganda with fake numbers trying to build up their narrative, but here in India we have holier than thou trying to cross-verify three times on whether we really did it. It was the same after surgical strikes, balakot etc.

Dude, I did not ask for a Gora source. Re read my post

There is not one qualified Indian source which gave this number out

You can propagate whichever number you like, but with the absence of any kind of credible action or even an tacit acknowledgment of it, that number will not have much impact. I agree that we act as "holier then thou" by releasing all our causality figures. When GOI comes out and says we lost 20 soldiers, everyone believes it and for good reason. We sticking to the "holier then thou" approach did not release what we think are Chinese dead and this does not go well in many circles. Is it because we do not know what damage we inflicted on them or are we naive enough to believe that chicoms will release their numbers or even worse, by knowing and not telling the world the pain we inflicted on chicoms, are we under the impression then they will see this as a token gesture of goodness and will let us sleep peacefully? If for whatever reasons we did not want to let the world know of the damage we inflicted on chinese then why go ahead and release our figures in public and box yourself in a tighter corner?

As for Balakot, there are pages upon pages where we discussed how we did not win the PR war with the Paki ISPR. Please go and re read those if you will.

[Rishi_Tri]

Rising Star has begun his tenure with 43 casualties of PLA as compared to 20 casualties of the enemy. That shall be greatly appreciated in the Corridors of Beijing.---43 people are not confirmed and you can bet that what is spun to the the Chinese populace will be a very different.

2016 - To Date - Roads built right to China Border across the length of the border. China keeps murmuring.---But Chinece have overall better infra.
June'2017 - Doklam takes place.
August'19 - Article 370 abrogated. China protests change of status. Tries to raise issue in UNSC. Thwarted by diplomatic push. - What bearing does this have on what is happening now?
August'19 to Date - Neelam Valley continuously pounded. Bofors also used. CPEC projects (Chinese assets in Pakistan) under threat.--That has not stopped them from what they are doing now has it?
February'20 - India bans all flights from China in response to China virus.---That is something even if we were the friendliest of countries we would have done no?
March'20 - to Date - India choses to build Medical capacity (PPE / N95 Masks / Masks / China Virus testing kits) within the country and succeeds.---Our strategic failure is it not that such basics come from China.
April'20 - India bans automatic route for FDI / FII / PNotes from nations that it shares land border. Aimed at China. China protests.--Too little too late.
April'20 - India returns medical kits received from China.---Why did we need from them in the first place. Strategic failure on our part.
May'20 - India starts Self Reliance initiative. Obvious immediate loser - China.---What is on the ground evidence of this sol called self reliance initiative? WE cannot get small arms indegenously!!!!
May'20 - India part of the comity of nations that calls for investigation into origins of China virus. India assumes executive leadership of WHO through Dr Harshvardhan.---Everyone else had done that. What makes us unique and where is it going? What will Dr HArshvardhan be able to do?/b]
May'20 - Lipulekh is declared operational.--So what has that got us in the current stand-off?

The fact of the matter is that we have reacted.

What have we won when we have lost territory?

Sir, all your comments are very pertinent. My assertions are:

-We are doing very sharp course correction on self reliance bit (GOI has realized the importance. Better late than never) including Medical Infra independence. We are not only producing for our needs but also exporting. In contrast, the whole of western world is still importing PPE, Masks, Face Shields, Tests from China. This provides India advantage of not being dependent on China for critical medical supplies.
-For sure, China has Superior Infra. But, the more access points we get to Chinese border, the more we give Chinese to think, worry, plan, about.

And as to what we have won: There are pretty wild claims going around including enemy posts in Pangong Tso area being destroyed, our soldiers entering Aksai Chin, and the casualty numbers on enemy side could be in 100s.

[stephen]

So in all these, where is our RW NGO's ? Shiv Sena, VHP, Shri Ram Sene

Wrong thread and wrong characterization. Shiv Sena is not RW and not NGO.

Yes, you are right, basically wanted to convey that our rabble rousers have been much quiet these days on such an important issue. Was expecting more from them. Anyway, wont be discussing this in here.

[ldev]

ldev ji, attacking the hinterland means that their fleet of commercial ships are at our mercy. CCP doesn't mind losing their citizens, but their ships loaded with goods that will get them additional moolah is a different matter.

It will be effective but it will take time for the impact of any embargo on Chinese merchant shipping at say the mouth of the Malacca Straits to take effect e.g. the most important commodity for them that passes through those straits is oil. But they will have a oil buffer/reserve of a few weeks at least. So unless the war goes on for say 3 weeks or longer they will not feel the impact of oil shortages. They will try and circumvent that blockade via then re-routing via the Lombok straits but India has now signed a logistics pact with Australia which will give IN ships access to the Coco Islands near the Lombok straits. Their trans-pacific shipping will not be affected.

[brvarsh]

Is India prepared that China lobs 200-300 short range ballistic missiles in Indian cities and towns in north and east India?

Yes, India is prepared for a BORDER war, targeting Chinese military targets in Tibet. Is it prepared for a war which comes into Indian cities and towns? And if it does, how will India retaliate?

Seriously? And you want the strategy to be talked in a public forum like BRF? China has a great wall does not mean they are impregnable. Forget about missile launches to cities, if they repeat what they did in Galawan, even after getting bloody nosed 43 times, they will go back to 1950.

[ldev]

Seriously? And you want the strategy to be talked in a public forum like BRF? China has a great wall does not mean they are impregnable. Forget about missile launches to cities, if they repeat what they did in Galawan, even after getting bloody nosed 43 times, they will go back to 1950.

That is what deterrence is about. Publicly stating what your red lines are. Like it or not e.g. Pakistan has said that an Indian strike corp attack in Rajasthan that attempts to cut off the country into 2 will be met with a nuclear response. It is a known red line. So if China's lobbing conventional SRBM's into Indian cities is going to invite a non-conventional Indian response, China should be told about it to deter it.

I hope you realize the difference between a conventional SRBM and sending somebody back to 1950.

[Jay]

Either you are trolling or your intentions are the same as Kejwi after Balakot and his "Modiji proof kaha hain" antics.

I am not asking the Govt for proof, but asking posters here to stop propagating 43 as Chinese dead when there is no proof, tacit or overt from from GOI sources. 43 is all hearsay at this point and hanging on to that number and saying "khel khatam" is not the way to go. You also need to understand what trolling means.

[brvarsh]

As for Balakot, there are pages upon pages where we discussed how we did not win the PR war with the Paki ISPR. Please go and re read those if you will.

If a few Indian fighters in attack formation taking off from their bases towards the IB and turning back, causes Karachi to be under lockdown, blackout and unconfirmed report of Pakistan's own air defense shooting down one of their F-16s, what did they win PR war for? We didn't need to win PR war when we have stabbed them near their heart and came back with the spear in hand. That's the war we need to win.

[khan]

Either you are trolling or your intentions are the same as Kejwi after Balakot and his "Modiji proof kaha hain" antics.

I am not asking the Govt for proof, but asking posters here to stop propagating 43 as Chinese dead when there is no proof, tacit or overt from from GOI sources. 43 is all hearsay at this point and hanging on to that number and saying "khel khatam" is not the way to go. You also need to understand what trolling means.

What will you accept as proof?

[ldev]

If a few Indian fighters in attack formation taking off from their bases towards the IB and turning back, causes Karachi to be under lockdown, blackout and unconfirmed report of Pakistan's own air defense shooting down one of their F-16s, what did they win PR war for? We didn't need to win PR war when we have stabbed them near their heart and came back with the spear in hand. That's the war we need to win.

OK, so a few indian fighters now take off for Tibet. What will happen? You think Lhasa will turn off it's lights? And do you think the Han Chinese care if a few Tibetans die at the hands of the IAF?

[manjgu]

1 ) so guys admist all this ... whats the status on galwan ( no intrusion...intrusion cleared...both sides on their respective sides)? pangong ( chini camp between F4 ..F8). 3) hot spring ....?? 2) Jay .. how are u going to get correct figures ? Gen Bakshi posted some figures on twitter. ?

[ldev]

1 ) so guys admist all this ... whats the status on galwan ( no intrusion...intrusion cleared...both sides on their respective sides)? pangong ( chini camp between F4 ..F8). 3) hot spring ....?? 2) Jay .. how are u going to get correct figures ? Gen Bakshi posted some figures on twitter. ?

Didn't poster Shyamd post that Major General level talks on Galwan that happened after the clash were suspended because of no agreement? China refuses to pull back further and India insists, so deadlock on Galwan.

[Larry Walker]

Do all our martyrs belong to the same regiment/batallion/company? That will give us some clue if action has also happened elsewhere apart from Galwan site. Secondly, if Xi brought in a hand picked commander and India takes contested land, then be prepared for a full frontal Chinese assault - remember that this commander has direct line of reporting to Xi - so in internal CPC circles this is a huge jhapad from India. Third - if PRC lobs ballistic missiles on civilian population from Tibet, then it makes India's case stronger for a free Tibet - Indian action to free Tibet is justified for the larger world community.

[ldev]

Do all our martyrs belong to the same regiment/batallion/company? That will give us some clue if action has also happened elsewhere apart from Galwan site. Secondly, if Xi brought in a hand picked commander and India takes contested land, then be prepared for a full frontal Chinese assault - remember that this commander has direct line of reporting to Xi - so in internal CPC circles this is a huge jhapad from India. Third - if PRC lobs ballistic missiles on civilian population from Tibet, then it makes India's case stronger for a free Tibet - Indian action to free Tibet is justified for the larger world community.

Bingo. If China lobs SRBMs into Indian cities, then the only commensurate response will be neutralize the 4 PLAAF airbases in southern Tibet and make a push for Lhasa. Airborne assault plus ground push. The loss of Lhasa will be the downfall of Xi and a massive humiliation for China. That is the response that the Indian armed forces must be able to achieve. And the logistics to enable that.

[brvarsh]

Seriously? And you want the strategy to be talked in a public forum like BRF? China has a great wall does not mean they are impregnable. Forget about missile launches to cities, if they repeat what they did in Galawan, even after getting bloody nosed 43 times, they will go back to 1950.

That is what deterrence is about. Publicly stating what your red lines are. Like it or not e.g. Pakistan has said that an Indian strike corp attack in Rajasthan that attempts to cut off the country into 2 will be met with a nuclear response. It is a known red line. So if China's lobbing conventional SRBM's into Indian cities is going to invite a non-conventional Indian response, China should be told about it to deter it.

I hope you realize the difference between a conventional SRBM and sending somebody back to 1950.

In the days of Corona and a general anti-China sentiment across western world, shutting down a market of 1.3B people for any Chinese products is quite a good economic deterrence wouldn't you think so? A complete annihilation of Chinese Navy by Indian and Australian Navies in Indian Ocean, is that not deterrence enough?

[ks_sachin]

If a few Indian fighters in attack formation taking off from their bases towards the IB and turning back, causes Karachi to be under lockdown, blackout and unconfirmed report of Pakistan's own air defense shooting down one of their F-16s, what did they win PR war for? We didn't need to win PR war when we have stabbed them near their heart and came back with the spear in hand. That's the war we need to win.

The PR war was not to not put Karachi under lockdown. It is proper precaution is it not. The PR was we lost was the fact that we failed to dent the edifice that keeps the Pak Army in power i.e the population that the Pak Army had brainwashed into thinking is superior because of their lineage...

Don't be so naive man. Any action in our neighbourhood esp with Pakistan generates a lot of attention from the "holier than thou" west. It is unnecessary distraction...

[ks_sachin]

That is what deterrence is about. Publicly stating what your red lines are. Like it or not e.g. Pakistan has said that an Indian strike corp attack in Rajasthan that attempts to cut off the country into 2 will be met with a nuclear response. It is a known red line. So if China's lobbing conventional SRBM's into Indian cities is going to invite a non-conventional Indian response, China should be told about it to deter it.

I hope you realize the difference between a conventional SRBM and sending somebody back to 1950.

In the days of Corona and a general anti-China sentiment across western world, shutting down a market of 1.3B people for any Chinese products is quite a good economic deterrence wouldn't you think so? A complete annihilation of Chinese Navy by Indian and Australian Navies in Indian Ocean, is that not deterrence enough?

Why would Australia get involved? The Chinese hold our economy by the B...s mate..
On what objective basis do you say that we will annihilate the Chinese Navy. Only arm chair analysts make statements that people in uniform are loathe to make.

[Sanju]

Agreement on the Maintenance of Peace and Tranquility along the Line of Actual Control in the India-China Border Areas

Please read the whole document, based on which our ROE was based. Posting in full:


Agreement on the Maintenance of Peace and Tranquility along the Line of Actual Control in the India-China Border Areas

September 7, 1993

The Government of the Republic of India and the Government of the People's Republic of China (hereinafter referred to as the two sides), have entered into the present Agreement in accordance with the Five Principles of mutual respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity, mutual non-aggression, non-interference in each other's internal affairs, equality and mutual benefit and peaceful coexistence and with a view to maintaining peace and tranquility in areas along the line of actual control in the India-China border areas.

1. The two sides are of the view that the India-China boundary question shall be resolved through peaceful and friendly consultations. Neither side shall use or threaten to use force against the other by any means. Pending an ultimate solution to the boundary question between the two countries, the two sides shall strictly respect and observe the line of actual control between the two sides. No activities of either side shall overstep the line of actual control. In case personnel of one side cross the line of actual control, upon being cautioned by the other side, they shall immediately pull back to their own side of the line of actual control. When necessary, the two sides shall jointly check and determine the segments of the line of actual control where they have different views as to its alignment.

2. Each side will keep its military forces in the areas along the line of actual control to a minimum level compatible with the friendly and good neighbourly relations between the two countries. The two sides agree to reduce their military forces along the line of actual control in conformity with the requirements of the principle of mutual and equal security to ceilings to be mutually agreed. The extent, depth, timing, and nature of reduction of military forces along the line of actual control shall be determined through mutual consultations between the two countries. The reduction of military forces shall be carried out by stages in mutually agreed geographical locations sector-wise within the areas along the line of actual control.

3. Both sides shall work out through consultations effective confidencebuilding measures in the areas along the line of actual control. Neither side will undertake specified levels of military exercises in mutually identified zones. Each side shall give the other prior notification of military exercises of specified levels near the line of actual control permitted under this Agreement.

4. In case of contingencies or other problems arising in the areas along the line of actual control, the two sides shall deal with them through meetings and friendly consultations between border personnel of the two countries. The form of such meetings and channels of communications between the border personnel shall be mutually agreed upon by the two sides.

5. The two sides agree to take adequate measures to ensure that air intrusions across the line of actual control do not take place and shall undertake mutual consultations should intrusions occur. Both sides shall also consult on possible restrictions on air exercises in areas to be mutually agreed near the line of actual control.

6. The two sides agree that references to the line of actual control in this Agreement do not prejudice their respective positions on the boundary question.

7. The two sides shall agree through consultations on the form, method, scale and content of effective verification measures and supervision required for the reduction of military forces and the maintenance of peace and tranquility in the areas along the line of actual control under this Agreement.

8. Each side of the India-China Joint Working Group on the boundary question shall appoint diplomatic and military experts to formulate, through mutual consultations, implementation measures for the present Agreement. The experts shall advise the Joint Working Group on the resolution of differences between the two sides on the alignment of the line of actual control and address issues relating to redeployment with a view to reduction of military forces in the areas along the line of actual control. The experts shall also assist the Joint Working Group in supervision of the implementation of the Agreement, and settlement of differences that may arise in that process, based on the principle of good faith and mutual confidence.

9. The present Agreement shall come into effect as of the date of signature and is subject to amendment and addition by agreement of the two sides.

Signed in duplicate at Beijing on the Seventh day of September 1993 in the Hindi, Chinese and English languages, all three texts having equal validity.

[Signed:]
R. L. Bhatia
Minister of State for External Affairs
Republic of India

Tang Jiaxuan
Vice-Foreign Minister
People's Republic of China

[ks_sachin]

Do all our martyrs belong to the same regiment/batallion/company? That will give us some clue if action has also happened elsewhere apart from Galwan site. Secondly, if Xi brought in a hand picked commander and India takes contested land, then be prepared for a full frontal Chinese assault - remember that this commander has direct line of reporting to Xi - so in internal CPC circles this is a huge jhapad from India. Third - if PRC lobs ballistic missiles on civilian population from Tibet, then it makes India's case stronger for a free Tibet - Indian action to free Tibet is justified for the larger world community.

16 Bihar...
However, looking at the list of casualties I find something strange.

[ks_sachin]

Agreement on the Maintenance of Peace and Tranquility along the Line of Actual Control in the India-China Border Areas

Please read the whole document, based on which our ROE was based. Posting in full:


Agreement on the Maintenance of Peace and Tranquility along the Line of Actual Control in the India-China Border Areas

September 7, 1993

The Government of the Republic of India and the Government of the People's Republic of China (hereinafter referred to as the two sides), have entered into the present Agreement in accordance with the Five Principles of mutual respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity, mutual non-aggression, non-interference in each other's internal affairs, equality and mutual benefit and peaceful coexistence and with a view to maintaining peace and tranquility in areas along the line of actual control in the India-China border areas.

1. The two sides are of the view that the India-China boundary question shall be resolved through peaceful and friendly consultations. Neither side shall use or threaten to use force against the other by any means. Pending an ultimate solution to the boundary question between the two countries, the two sides shall strictly respect and observe the line of actual control between the two sides. No activities of either side shall overstep the line of actual control. In case personnel of one side cross the line of actual control, upon being cautioned by the other side, they shall immediately pull back to their own side of the line of actual control. When necessary, the two sides shall jointly check and determine the segments of the line of actual control where they have different views as to its alignment.

2. Each side will keep its military forces in the areas along the line of actual control to a minimum level compatible with the friendly and good neighbourly relations between the two countries. The two sides agree to reduce their military forces along the line of actual control in conformity with the requirements of the principle of mutual and equal security to ceilings to be mutually agreed. The extent, depth, timing, and nature of reduction of military forces along the line of actual control shall be determined through mutual consultations between the two countries. The reduction of military forces shall be carried out by stages in mutually agreed geographical locations sector-wise within the areas along the line of actual control.

3. Both sides shall work out through consultations effective confidencebuilding measures in the areas along the line of actual control. Neither side will undertake specified levels of military exercises in mutually identified zones. Each side shall give the other prior notification of military exercises of specified levels near the line of actual control permitted under this Agreement.

4. In case of contingencies or other problems arising in the areas along the line of actual control, the two sides shall deal with them through meetings and friendly consultations between border personnel of the two countries. The form of such meetings and channels of communications between the border personnel shall be mutually agreed upon by the two sides.

5. The two sides agree to take adequate measures to ensure that air intrusions across the line of actual control do not take place and shall undertake mutual consultations should intrusions occur. Both sides shall also consult on possible restrictions on air exercises in areas to be mutually agreed near the line of actual control.

6. The two sides agree that references to the line of actual control in this Agreement do not prejudice their respective positions on the boundary question.

7. The two sides shall agree through consultations on the form, method, scale and content of effective verification measures and supervision required for the reduction of military forces and the maintenance of peace and tranquility in the areas along the line of actual control under this Agreement.

8. Each side of the India-China Joint Working Group on the boundary question shall appoint diplomatic and military experts to formulate, through mutual consultations, implementation measures for the present Agreement. The experts shall advise the Joint Working Group on the resolution of differences between the two sides on the alignment of the line of actual control and address issues relating to redeployment with a view to reduction of military forces in the areas along the line of actual control. The experts shall also assist the Joint Working Group in supervision of the implementation of the Agreement, and settlement of differences that may arise in that process, based on the principle of good faith and mutual confidence.

9. The present Agreement shall come into effect as of the date of signature and is subject to amendment and addition by agreement of the two sides.

Signed in duplicate at Beijing on the Seventh day of September 1993 in the Hindi, Chinese and English languages, all three texts having equal validity.

[Signed:]
R. L. Bhatia
Minister of State for External Affairs
Republic of India

Tang Jiaxuan
Vice-Foreign Minister
People's Republic of China

Where does it say our boy's wont carry weapons?
WE never learn!!!!!