India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Jun 2020 01:47

I hope we take the initiative and occupy the ridge line of Galwan, so the chinese do not get a line of sight to the DBO road - they have set the precedent by occupying the ridge line at F4.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 20 Jun 2020 01:50

shaun wrote:I guess we need to wait for few weeks ... PM's speech what ever he is telling is in contrast to EAM's telephonic call..

Key word is SOUGHT

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 20 Jun 2020 01:50

Very disappointed with PMs speech.

We have happily conceded the land that our men died fighting in 1962 between finger 4-8.

If no fight, atleast we should have grabbed similar grey zone somewhere else in LAC.

Clear failure of both military and govt. this will haunt us

khan · Post by **khan** » 20 Jun 2020 01:52

Finger 4-8 was effectively gone during Kargil when the Chinese built that road.

That’s the hard reality. The reason Indian troops couldn’t fight back was because the Chinese had a road from which they could truck in soldiers by the 100’s, while Indian troops had to walk past that narrow cliff path.

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 20 Jun 2020 01:52

Even Lt Gen Atta Hasnain had agreed that if they don’t withdraw before winter then we may have to take action

williams · Post by **williams** » 20 Jun 2020 01:53

I think the Chinese objective is simply to disrupt road construction in DBO. Now that did not work out and GOI doubled down on the road construction. Then they wanted some more salami slicing this year and our boys are not allowing it. Finally, they just wanted to teach us a lesson before moving back and showing higher-ups something is done out of this whole exercise. That got backfired on the 15th and it will probably be followed up by GOI backing off from firearms use policy and major rethinking of trade relations with the Chinese. So other than the fact we let the Chinese get away from this kind of behavior before, we did gain many positive things including knowing our internal gaps

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 20 Jun 2020 01:54

khan wrote:Finger 4-8 was effectively gone during Kargil when the Chinese built that road.

we patrolled till Apr 2020. Now we can’t, this is a loss.

Shardul · Post by **Shardul** » 20 Jun 2020 01:55

I don't think that things are so complicated here. What PM has said is absolutely correct. We have our actual.posation / deployment and our claim line. Chinese have there forward deployment and their claim line. Between the to percieved claim line there was a buffer zone that both parties used to patrol. Now because of improved Indian infra and reach of our border patrol frequent clashes were happening. As India was beefing it's presence and reach across it's actual holding area along with increased patrolling till Indian claim line. Chinese saw the window of opportunity now to enforce their claim.line on us . Timings and reason can be debated starting from preoccupied of countries in fighting COVID 19 / Diversion tactics from internal issues in china / To assessment that next summer due to.improved connectivity things gonna be different. Chinese sides started enforcing their claim line on us slowly creeping in the buffer zone till.they reach Indian present holding position. This resulted in frequent skirmish as India wanted pre April status quo. Based on Chinese strategy of building temporary structure initially then converting it to permeant ones later and slowly moving in as already demonstrated in few areas . In the Galwan valley the Chinese employed the same strategy putting temporary structure at P14. Being a strategic location Indian army went and dismantled the structure erected by Chinese. As Chinese were creeping in inch by inch followed by solid back up. There was hand to hand fighting resulting in our losses and huge Chinese casualty too. The actual no of casualty can be debated. Like either combat or mudslide/ capturing of our men etc. Now we have to ensure the pre April status quo is maintained. Else we have to use force to enforce same. Our men didn't die like this. They sacrificed their life so that India is in strong posating in Galwan valley. If you consider Indian claim line or askai cheen as our terrotery then yes they intruded but that part was never in our physical possession. In we go by PM statement they have not taken any post/ voilation of our actual holding line. But if they are enforcing their claim.line on us we have to enforce our claim line on them Irrespective of cost and settle for nothing below pre April status quo. We have to fight china some day it may be today/ tommorow or day after tomorrow going by their absurd enlargement of claim. So why not today ??. Request all not to doubt govt or Army. They are well informed / in better posation to evaluate the pros and cons of various in hand options. If you have to fight then you have to fight with Kool head . Jingoism is of no use.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 20 Jun 2020 01:56

YashG sir agree with you in principle, however, there are a lot more items to the calculus. Lets assume for a moment that the PRC tried this stunt on request from their b**** Pakis so that the pressure is relieved on LOC/Balochistan and Occupied Ladakh ? If this were indeed true then we have to play our own game(of retrieving Occupied Ladakh liberating Balochistan) without getting distracted.

Basically, what am saying is there are too many things happening and we have a view of only 1% and it is hard for us to sit here and figure out while staying out of the scheme. The only thing that we can trust is in this leadership which till date has not disappointed us.

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 20 Jun 2020 01:57

khan wrote:Finger 4-8 was effectively gone during Kargil when the Chinese built that road.

That’s the hard reality. The reason Indian troops couldn’t fight back was because the Chinese had a road from which they could truck in soldiers by the 100’s, while Indian troops had to walk past that narrow cliff path.

Agree, but QPQ action could be taken somewhere else. Or this one highlighted at international forums to mount diplomatic pressure.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Jun 2020 02:04

People, let the Chinese occupy F4. We need that to happen in full public glare.

Why? The chinese cannot complain anymore, when India walks in our claim zone and starts setting up bunkers.

That is what we want!

Shardul · Post by **Shardul** » 20 Jun 2020 02:08

Agreed we should have faith in govt that has till date never dissapointed us. Also Doval Ji/ Gen Bipin Rawat and Gen Mukund Naverna are very seasoned professional with deep understanding of Chinese working / strategy. I bet my money on them.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Jun 2020 02:10

Claim line cannot be a "control area" unless we have something permanent in that place. Stop worrying about P4 and start build roads and construct permanent structures. This will firm up the LAC line from an imaginary line to a defense line.

This was the issue with P4. There was nothing permanent Indian structure, so the Chinese could walk in.

If there was a ITBP post, they cannot come in, without force.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 20 Jun 2020 02:11

Panther ji can you please choose a human sounding handle ?

Shardul · Post by **Shardul** » 20 Jun 2020 02:13

nam wrote:People, let the Chinese occupy F4. We need that to happen in full public glare.

Why? The chinese cannot complain anymore, when India walks in our claim zone and starts setting up bunkers.

That is what we want!

Sir for forward deployment you need the logistics support you can't supply your forward troops on mules even if you put up bunkers on their territory. With years of neglect we don't have the capacity and capability to back our forward deployment with required punch as Chinese are doing now. Good thing is that we should be able to do it from next 1-2 years. So window of opportunity for Chinese shrinking.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Jun 2020 02:14

So speed up that bloody roads. Our forces are deployed, so the Chinese cannot barge in.

This is the time to speed up building infra.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 20 Jun 2020 02:14

Please stop being keyboard warriors . Those suggesting changing QPQ at other sites seem to ignore China can do same and so can China and Pakistan BOTH . This is not a marvel movie and There are no avengers . First element of mounting attack is acheiving surprise . Sitting eye ball to eye ball we don’t have it . Trust your Army and The men who know there job. PM has publicly announced today that “poori chooht de di gayi hai” (Army commanders are free to decide and act ) . It will be long grinding halt .

Hundreds of our men are on guard have there lives at stake. Meticulously planned operations achieve victory not the one which are committed hastingly . Trust your Army

khan · Post by **khan** » 20 Jun 2020 02:17

IMO, India must fix Pakistan this winter & take them off the chessboard. Doesn’t have to do much other than degrade their war fighting capabilities - take out their air-force & armor.

With the UTization of J&K, 5th Column has been fixed.

The only way any sane leader will commit India to conflict with China is after Pakistan is solved, if a two front war goes wrong, the consequences are too horrible to contemplate.

IMO, this is the biggest factor on any PM’s mind when they decide on whether to escalate or not.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Jun 2020 02:18

ofcourse the Chinese can do it as well. But to hold those positions across 3400KM they need to induct more men.

Isn't that what we want?

Shardul · Post by **Shardul** » 20 Jun 2020 02:18

suryag wrote:Panther ji can you please choose a human sounding handle ?

Sir so many people sacrificed their life for our freedom. In this free Hindustan. Can't you allow my to have my handle based on my favorite animal who kills by stealth and speed not by force.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 20 Jun 2020 02:18

Even in Pangong lake - finger-4 ridge-line is of no particular value. There is nothing much happening on the Indian side for a 24X7 monitoring and if they ever need to peek into Indian side they could have used a drone. It is of significance only if they are planning a direct attack, that too artillery barrages, on Indian positions for a military assault. Even then does not give much view beyond finger-1. It is appearing like Chinese are more tactically brilliant even comapred to their whore Pakis.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Jun 2020 02:24

Both in Finger 4 and Galwan valley on the Chinese side, the first thing they did after coming, was to start building structures and roads. This is what we need to do as well.

Get in on our LAC side and build all the roads and structure. Before we go to war, we need to get our position hardened.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jun 2020 02:26

Panther wrote:
suryag wrote:Panther ji can you please choose a human sounding handle ?
Sir so many people sacrificed their life for our freedom. In this free Hindustan. Can't you allow my to have my handle based on my favorite animal who kills by stealth and speed not by force.

Username changed to Shardul as per board rules.
You can request for a human sounding name of your choice and it would be changed to that if not already taken.
Regards.

khan · Post by **khan** » 20 Jun 2020 02:31

Larry Walker wrote:Even in Pangong lake - finger-4 ridge-line is of no particular value. There is nothing much happening on the Indian side for a 24X7 monitoring and if they ever need to peek into Indian side they could have used a drone. It is of significance only if they are planning a direct attack, that too artillery barrages, on Indian positions for a military assault. Even then does not give much view beyond finger-1. It is appearing like Chinese are more tactically brilliant even comapred to their whore Pakis.

Last year or something there were reports that India found a mountain ridge patrol path from 4-8. I think this might be their way to block it.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 20 Jun 2020 02:34

nam wrote:Both in Finger 4 and Galwan valley on the Chinese side, the first thing they did after coming, was to start building structures and roads. This is what we need to do as well.

Get in on our LAC side and build all the roads and structure. Before we go to war, we need to get our position hardened.

My point is what did they gain ? Assuming things had continued the way they were - there would not have been an anti-China awakening like we have now - infra would have been built not possibly compared to the feverish speed with which it will be built now. Chinese risked antagonising India and creating a potential few 10's of billion $$ losses all for a ridge line 500 metres ahead of their current location ? This mystery is giving me sleepless nights. With this move they have now actually firmed up LAC as defacto border since neither patrol parties will now cross over into the contested zone for fear of triggering a firefight.

Shardul · Post by **Shardul** » 20 Jun 2020 02:38

Also if you analyze Chinese Chaim line . They are claiming all those areas easily accessible to them and very difficult for use to defend/ approach. For eg see the Galwan valley approach from their side and our side.

bkswarti · Post by **bkswarti** » 20 Jun 2020 02:41

China claims the Galwan valley is their territory. Modi doesn't counter it.Now Modi claims that there was no intrusion and no Indian land was captured. He didn't mention Galwan valley at all.

So is the Indian government supporting the Chinese narrative?

This is ridiculous. A simple statement on the territorial claim over the valley would have sufficed. But so far, those statements have only come from the Chinese who have claimed the Valley as their own. It is only logical to surmise that our government has ceded territory and is now trying to protect the embarrassment.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Jun 2020 02:41

Larry Walker wrote: My point is what did they gain ? Assuming things had continued the way they were - there would not have been an anti-China awakening like we have now - infra would have been built not possibly compared to the feverish speed with which it will be built now. Chinese risked antagonising India and creating a potential few 10's of billion $$ losses all for a ridge line 500 metres ahead of their current location ? This mystery is giving me sleepless nights. With this move they have now actually firmed up LAC as defacto border since neither patrol parties will now cross over into the contested zone for fear of triggering a firefight.

What the Chinese gained is not our concern. Our objective is to hold our line. And firm our position.

What do the Chinese want?. They want land, which is under our control. As simple as that. They want to loose billions in export while doing that, it is their wish.

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 20 Jun 2020 02:44

parshuram wrote:Please stop being keyboard warriors . Those suggesting changing QPQ at other sites seem to ignore China can do same and so can China and Pakistan BOTH . This is not a marvel movie and There are no avengers . First element of mounting attack is acheiving surprise . Sitting eye ball to eye ball we don’t have it . Trust your Army and The men who know there job. PM has publicly announced today that “poori chooht de di gayi hai” (Army commanders are free to decide and act ) . It will be long grinding halt .

Hundreds of our men are on guard have there lives at stake. Meticulously planned operations achieve victory not the one which are committed hastingly . Trust your Army

Well, all civilians giving military opinion can be classified as keyboard warriors, but this forum is for the very purpose of discussing, isn’t it ?!

1. I am quoting Lt Gen Atta Hasnain. He said QPQ should have been done immediately.

2. Lt HS Panag said in early May, heights near F4 should be be taken. Latest satellite images show they have taken heights now.

3. When similar thing happened in Kargil, we responded immediately. We didn’t wait for later date to surprise them.

In dealing with China who construct infra at occupied sites, time is crucial. It’s hard to destroy a well build road like we see in F4 eastwards. I believe a small response quickly is easy than huge response later, which will be way up the escalation ladder.

khan · Post by **khan** » 20 Jun 2020 02:45

bkswarti wrote:China claims the Galwan valley is their territory. Modi doesn't counter it.Now Modi claims that there was no intrusion and no Indian land was captured. He didn't mention Galwan valley at all.

So is the Indian government supporting the Chinese narrative?

This is ridiculous. A simple statement on the territorial claim over the valley would have sufficed. But so far, those statements have only come from the Chinese who have claimed the Valley as their own. It is only logical to surmise that our government has ceded territory and is now trying to protect the embarrassment.

To me, the only thing he conceded was Finger 4-8 (which was half gone anyways). There is status Quo in all the other areas - right?

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Jun 2020 02:45

bkswarti wrote:China claims the Galwan valley is their territory. Modi doesn't counter it.Now Modi claims that there was no intrusion and no Indian land was captured. He didn't mention Galwan valley at all.

So is the Indian government supporting the Chinese narrative?

This is ridiculous. A simple statement on the territorial claim over the valley would have sufficed. But so far, those statements have only come from the Chinese who have claimed the Valley as their own. It is only logical to surmise that our government has ceded territory and is now trying to protect the embarrassment.

Buddy, there is a map in this thread explaining clearly about Galwan valley. When each side say Galwan valley is theirs.. BOTH are correct.

This is because, part of the Galwan valley is on Indian LAC and the other part is on the Chinese side.

So NO, PM has NOT given away anything. And the Chinese cannot get our part, because our forces are deployed heavily in the valley!

Shardul · Post by **Shardul** » 20 Jun 2020 02:46

bkswarti wrote:China claims the Galwan valley is their territory. Modi doesn't counter it.Now Modi claims that there was no intrusion and no Indian land was captured. He didn't mention Galwan valley at all.

So is the Indian government supporting the Chinese narrative?

This is ridiculous. A simple statement on the territorial claim over the valley would have sufficed. But so far, those statements have only come from the Chinese who have claimed the Valley as their own. It is only logical to surmise that our government has ceded territory and is now trying to protect the embarrassment.

Don't know why we don't trust our leadership and keep on floating conspiracy theory.

bkswarti · Post by **bkswarti** » 20 Jun 2020 02:48

nam wrote:
bkswarti wrote:China claims the Galwan valley is their territory. Modi doesn't counter it.Now Modi claims that there was no intrusion and no Indian land was captured. He didn't mention Galwan valley at all.

So is the Indian government supporting the Chinese narrative?

This is ridiculous. A simple statement on the territorial claim over the valley would have sufficed. But so far, those statements have only come from the Chinese who have claimed the Valley as their own. It is only logical to surmise that our government has ceded territory and is now trying to protect the embarrassment.
Buddy, there is a map in this thread explaining clearly about Galwan valley. When each side say Galwan valley is theirs.. BOTH are correct.

This is because, part of the Galwan valley is on Indian LAC and the other part is on the Chinese side.

So NO, PM has NOT given away anything. And the Chinese cannot get our part, because our forces are deployed heavily in the valley!

Your comment has helped calm me down. I would still like the PM to be a little more detailed. You give the Chinese an inch and they will take a mile.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Jun 2020 02:50

And regarding the Pangong lake, my personal opinion, we should NOT ask for status quo.

The Chinese have broken status quo at Pangong. So we are NOT under any obligation to maintain status quo on the LAC.

The Chinis did it first..

bkswarti · Post by **bkswarti** » 20 Jun 2020 02:51

^ more the reason why the PM may not have said any details. We can take places elsewhere along LAC and act like we always had them.

khan · Post by **khan** » 20 Jun 2020 02:55

I think GOI should play the long game. First take out Pakistan, build infrastructure, then go **** the Chinese. 2-3 years, it can happen before this election.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 20 Jun 2020 03:01

khan wrote:I think GOI should play the long game. First take out Pakistan, build infrastructure, then go **** the Chinese. 2-3 years, it can happen before this election.

Maybe the Chinese have an inkling of the roadmap that Modi is following and they are trying to preempt the action when the prep is still some way to complete - this way kill the plan.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 20 Jun 2020 03:02

bkswarti wrote:China claims the Galwan valley is their territory. Modi doesn't counter it.Now Modi claims that there was no intrusion and no Indian land was captured. He didn't mention Galwan valley at all.

So is the Indian government supporting the Chinese narrative?

This is ridiculous. A simple statement on the territorial claim over the valley would have sufficed. But so far, those statements have only come from the Chinese who have claimed the Valley as their own. It is only logical to surmise that our government has ceded territory and is now trying to protect the embarrassment.

MEA has already issued a statement that Chinese claims on Galwan valley are untenable... Modi need not issue specific statements again and again for every low level Chinese press release... You don't see Xi saying anything, do you...?

There is no change in status quo in Galwan valley... Chinese tried to change it and went back with a bloody nose...

And there has been no change in land actually held by India before this stand-off started and now... Only area between Finger 4-8 (which was effectively under Chinese control even before this stand-off started) status has now been changed somewhat in the sense that they've stopped us from patrolling... And this is still under discussion and the stand-off is still going on...

We didn't vacate all our posts and return home yet... So, take a chill pill and relax...
Don't read too much into today's speech... Let Govt. do its job...

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 20 Jun 2020 03:05

khan wrote:I think GOI should play the long game. First take out Pakistan, build infrastructure, then go **** the Chinese. 2-3 years, it can happen before this election.

We can never completely decimate Pakistan. We have to manoeuvre politically by using US, to keep them out of action while we fight China.

bkswarti · Post by **bkswarti** » 20 Jun 2020 03:07

^Laxmanji; PM did however say that Chinese did not intrude inside indian territory.

Then why was there a clash; were our soldiers in their territory?

https://m.rediff.com/news/report/china- ... 200619.htm