India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 21 Jun 2020 05:23

Do we know why even after after China's perfidy leading to the grisly death of 20 Indian soldiers did GOI not summon China's ambassador and issue a strong demarche?
On the other side, China has the temerity to do exactly that.

Why are we still so obsequious to the bloody Chinese? Will we never learn?

bharathp · Post by **bharathp** » 21 Jun 2020 05:44

ManuJ wrote:Do we know why even after after China's perfidy leading to the grisly death of 20 Indian soldiers did GOI not summon China's ambassador and issue a strong demarche?
On the other side, China has the temerity to do exactly that.

Why are we still so obsequious to the bloody Chinese? Will we never learn?

"External Affairs Minister (EAM) and the Foreign Minister of China, H.E. Mr. Wang Yi, had a conversation on 17 June 2020 wherein EAM conveyed our protest in the strongest terms on the events leading up to and on the violent face-off on 15 June 2020. "

from: https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/ ... der-627828

the protest/ contest was lodged with the FM of China.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 21 Jun 2020 06:32

India will teach china/pakis a lesson in 2020 that they will remember for sometime. All the planets are in alignement. Action shall begin soon, be patient. Jai Ma Bharti

Rampy · Post by **Rampy** » 21 Jun 2020 06:44

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Rony wrote:
Some in forces favour ‘limited action’ to send message to China .

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 453968.cms
Whether it remains "limited" or not isn't in the hands of one party. What if other side doesn't allow it to stay "limited"? These people if they had guts would have said "action" without adding "limited" to it. That would have shown "guts" for aar paar ki ladai.

I don't understand why do we keep quoting TOILET paper for any strategic or govt action. These ba$turds are paki pasand at best

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 21 Jun 2020 07:00

What I know is this. CCP and it's pet dog PLA doesn't do anything without thoroughly planning it out. If they are where they are, it's because they are following a well laid out plan. And what that plan is, we are still confused here in brf. We need a consensus on why Chinese are doing what they are doing.

khan · Post by **khan** » 21 Jun 2020 07:17

AshishAcharya wrote:What I know is this. CCP and it's pet dog PLA doesn't do anything without thoroughly planning it out. If they are where they are, it's because they are following a well laid out plan. And what that plan is, we are still confused here in brf. We need a consensus on why Chinese are doing what they are doing.

They are not infallible. Just analyze what their mission objective was in Galwan & if they were successful.

ldev wrote: Galwan was not a feint. A successful move in Galwan would have weakened connectivity to DBO leaving only the air bridge intact. So they lost out in Galwan and now they are going for the main course.

After Galwan, I now have much more confidence in our Military than before.

Sumair · Post by **Sumair** » 21 Jun 2020 07:41

ManuJ wrote:Do we know why even after after China's perfidy leading to the grisly death of 20 Indian soldiers did GOI not summon China's ambassador and issue a strong demarche?
On the other side, China has the temerity to do exactly that.

Why are we still so obsequious to the bloody Chinese? Will we never learn?

Have you ever seen any consequence of these demarches?! So then why waste time and energy!

Sumair · Post by **Sumair** » 21 Jun 2020 07:49

AshishAcharya wrote:What I know is this. CCP and it's pet dog PLA doesn't do anything without thoroughly planning it out. If they are where they are, it's because they are following a well laid out plan. And what that plan is, we are still confused here in brf. We need a consensus on why Chinese are doing what they are doing.

It is called "apne perohn pe khud kulhari marna"

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 21 Jun 2020 07:52

So I was reading a recent article by a Chinese think tank. One statement stood out.

The unilateral change of the status of Kashmir has threatened territorial integrity of China

I think all of this happening recently originate from their need to safeguard their investments in Gilgit Baltistan.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jun 2020 08:10

Our MEA are like the Keystone Cops.Buffoons. Sending " befitting replies" ," strong demarches",blah,blah are useless when dealing with the Chinese.They'll use our babu protest letters as toilet paper- that is if they wash their stinking backsides.
Booting out Chin diplomats is the right way for the MEA.It's big loss of face for the Chins which hate losing face. Recognising Taiwan, the Tibetan govt. in exile would send bayonets up their bunghole more effectively than a ton of MEA mouthings even drafted by Shashi Tharoor! Add to this menu total trade sanctions and you will see India score a definite hat trick against China even before the " big match" starts!

bharathp · Post by **bharathp** » 21 Jun 2020 08:24

Philip wrote:Our MEA are like the Keystone Cops.Buffoons. Sending " befitting replies" ," strong demarches",blah,blah are useless when dealing with the Chinese.They'll use our babu protest letters as toilet paper- that is if they wash their stinking backsides.
Booting out Chin diplomats is the right way for the MEA.It's big loss of face for the Chins which hate losing face. Recognising Taiwan, the Tibetan govt. in exile would send bayonets up their bunghole more effectively than a ton of MEA mouthings even drafted by Shashi Tharoor! Add to this menu total trade sanctions and you will see India score a definite hat trick against China even before the " big match" starts!

I am not sure if this is the right way.

let me play the devils advocate.

India recognizes Tibet + Taiwan
China then recognizes PoK + Kashmir as separate from India. (They started issuing stapled visas to people of AP and J&K, the J&K got dropped I think only in 2012).
Booting chinese diplomats - They will do the same with India. and now we cant get help to people of India during Wuhan virus crisis or similar.
The tibetan govt has not been protrayed in the world media because china controls the media within its territory.

now to offer some suggestions:
As long as we dont lose our "claim" for the Aksai Chin or PoK, I think we still have the game. dont sign any accord that recognizes LAC as the border.
they have hit us when we are low - virus, lockdown, etc. what is to say China will be strong throughout the next decade or two?

there is a LONG game to be played. giving first innings lead does not mean you lost the match. this match has a lot of innings.

I think the order of the day is the tackle to smallest issue first and then use the avalanche phenomena:
tackle the 0.5 front war which we are in the front foot for sure - abrogation of 370 was a GREAT begining. bring cases against all the leftists - water tight cases. we already have left lose every major election except now kerala.

Then Islamists -
target this by next 5 years.

meanwhile, keep POK hot and the LAC warm.

take the POK in next 5 years, once the 0.5 war is won.

then, get ready for a showdown with China as equals.

my two cents.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 21 Jun 2020 08:45

AshishAcharya wrote:What I know is this. CCP and it's pet dog PLA doesn't do anything without thoroughly planning it out. If they are where they are, it's because they are following a well laid out plan. And what that plan is, we are still confused here in brf. We need a consensus on why Chinese are doing what they are doing.

And how do you know this? If they can achieve what ever they planned, then they would be gods, no? If their plan is to lose 50 or 100 men in a scuffle, then it's not much of a plan.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 21 Jun 2020 08:55

Why did India destroy the smallest of the Galwan Valley camps of the chinese stay but let them build many more camps on finger 4? The answer might lie in Lt Gen Kulkarni's nonchalant remark about India having its troops at a near by peak. The red line for India to take action seems to be loss of strategic advantage.

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 21 Jun 2020 09:05

hanumadu wrote:
AshishAcharya wrote:What I know is this. CCP and it's pet dog PLA doesn't do anything without thoroughly planning it out. If they are where they are, it's because they are following a well laid out plan. And what that plan is, we are still confused here in brf. We need a consensus on why Chinese are doing what they are doing.
And how do you know this? If they can achieve what ever they planned, then they would be gods, no? If their plan is to lose 50 or 100 men in a scuffle, then it's not much of a plan.

First of all men are expendable to them. They threw 10s of thousands of men in human wave tactics against USA. They didn't have any problem in hiding thousands of China Virus casualties. 50-100 people are nothing compared to what they can hide.

Second, when I said they have plan, I didn't say they will necessarily succeed in that said plan. Or else they would have won Vietnam.

Third I believe we still don't have a adequate understanding of the psyche of enemy like we have of Pakistanis. Language barriers and other restrictions make china a very closed nation. Hence, we need to know how the enemy thinks before proposing actions against them.

Lastly, when I said they don't do anything without planning I said it keeping in mind the history of CCP from Korean war to Tiannamen Massacre to Xinjiang repression. And moreover, Xi is a very careful man. He had seen his father's fall from power and that shaped his thinking into carefully planning it out, keeping his presence low and not letting his enemies know what he is thinking.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 21 Jun 2020 09:25

ldev wrote:
Larry Walker wrote:
Unless Chinese and XiPing's plans or atleast intentions are understood, it is very difficult to advocate de-escalation vs pre-emption.
Overall driving force for all Chinese expansion: We are now big and strong enough that we create our own rules. Our time has arrived after centuries. The Middle Kingdom is now the center of the world. We can therefore grab and get what we want starting in our neighbourhood.

Specificifically: Pangong Tso is a defensive move to put as much distance as possible between the road that they have built from Siritaj to G-219 and the Indian Army. So the target is to prevent the IA using their roads to reach and cut off G-219. The 10 km or more of additional buffer they now have because of the move from Finger 8 to Finger 4 is a defensive plus for them.

Control of DBO allows them to cut off IA access to the Karokaram Pass and any hope of getting GB. It also allows them a build a short cut into POK directly from G-219. Kills 2 birds with one stone. If they start building/expanding roads from G-219 to the Depsang Plains border which they apparently are, then they want to have the ability to bring maximum pressure there.

Galwan was not a feint. A successful move in Galwan would have weakened connectivity to DBO leaving only the air bridge intact. So they lost out in Galwan and now they are going for the main course.

This makes the most sense given what we know from open sources. Thanks for the summary. Cutting off Karakoram so we don't threaten their G-219 makes sense, but why now? Did we signal we are looking to alter status quo (I don't recall anything of the sort) or do they have further plans this year and are preempting us? They clearly have enough internal problems that a short sharp war can divert their people's attention. But why haven't they attempted anything at Demchok? It's the easier place for us to threaten their road from (distance is low, and the terrain is easier and Ngari is an important node for them) - our roads here aren't great, but we are building them up, the pace of which will only speed up now.

The fingers area, OTOH, was perhaps their feint, given that even from Khurnak, the G-219 is a good 100km as the crow flies, and much more if we used their road. The fingers area is even further back, so threatening G-219 via this route is a non-starter. The lake is frozen for most part of the year making it difficult to use boats (we anyway don't have that level of force there). But this is where things are still not clear. Except some OSINT sources based on hazy maps, it's not clear who exactly are on the ridge overlooking the foxhole point. If, as you said, their road makes it easy for us to use, the road from Finger 8 to 4 that they have built would become a liability if it is our people overlooking Finger 4. They were better off leaving that area undeveloped, as we'd have been behind the impassable section of Finger 4 along the lake. Sort of like our past policy of not developing the border states, applied at the micro-level. But it would have been a good buffer for them too. Now, they'll have to man their points at strength through the winter, with little experience of operating at that level. But even if we were to take control of all the fingers, we cannot pose a threat to G-219 - it's simply too far away and the route is very open and exposed. Our claim is the IB anyway, which passes at Khurnak. So my guess is, they tried a feint here, and it backfired on them with our people controlling the heights in sight of their road.

The other explanation, of course is that the PLA is on that ridge. But their statements about GoI needing to punish its troops, followed by actions like returning our troops with no propaganda, etc. hint that it may not be the case. I'll revise my opinion on this if I get to see some verifiable data or official statement.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 21 Jun 2020 09:37

Leonard wrote:New Bridge in Galwan valley ..

https://twitter.com/MarkKumar3/status/1 ... 36/photo/1

This is not the new bridge on the Galwan. This pic was already released a few months ago. Other points to confirm: the valley is too wide and relatively flat, and which does not seem to be the case in the Galwan area going by G earth. Second, media reports clearly mentioned the new bridge being a 4-span Bailey bridge, and this clearly is not (the older bridge to the right appears to be a Bailey bridge).

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 21 Jun 2020 09:54

ldev wrote:
khan wrote: This sounds much more serious than Galwan or Finger 4.
I know the Chinese are phenomenal with civil engineering and road construction but how did they get tanks and artillery onto the Depsang Plains? A cursory look does not turn up any roads on their side of the LAC and G-219 is 80km-100 km away across difficult terrain.

The Depsang plain is one of the 2 areas in Ladakh-Aksai Hind that are flat enough for mechanised warfare (the other being Demchok).
You are right that getting to Depsang involves a 80-100 km movement from the G-219 across an unpaved road. However, the area along
the Chip Chap river is flat enough for a mechanised force to move towards DBO. Similarly the area north of Depsang La (east of Qizil Langar)
is flat, but involves a longer movement from the G-219. Our own armoured brigade can move a lot faster along the Murgo-DBO road.
At high altitudes, breakdowns of vehicles during long drives will be high, which will affect the Chinese more than us.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 21 Jun 2020 10:48

Sumair wrote:
ManuJ wrote:Do we know why even after after China's perfidy leading to the grisly death of 20 Indian soldiers did GOI not summon China's ambassador and issue a strong demarche?
On the other side, China has the temerity to do exactly that.

Why are we still so obsequious to the bloody Chinese? Will we never learn?
Have you ever seen any consequence of these demarches?! So then why waste time and energy!

This argument would make sense if India didn't issue demarches to the Pakistani ambassador at the drop of a hat.
Demarches are meant to signal displeasure and to assert authority and are a universally understood tool of diplomacy.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 21 Jun 2020 10:58

One little thing to consider apart from what some others have already pointed out regarding the reasons for Chinese perfidy:

In the next 2 years or so imvho India will very nearly become invincible with the induction of 36 rafale + 40 LCA + 20 mig29 and 5 x S400.

The s400 will allow the IAF to manage tspaf with minimal fighters and thereby concentrate the bulk of its attention on the Chinese, something that they will not be able to counter especially considering the geographical disadvantages they suffer.

The IAF will have a smaller but very powerful inventory by 2022:
14 sqd mki
4 sqd baaz
3 sqd m2k
5 sqd bison
6 sqd Jaguar
2 sqd Tejas
2 sqd rafale
-------------------
36 total sqds

This strength will continue as bisons are replaced by Tejas. Still short of sanctioned 39.5 sqds but TBH this is a very powerful force, fully bvr capable and with a mix of weapons and sensors that are hard to counter. In a2a bvr for example, a mixed formation, say rafale, mki and tejas could easily be carrying meteors, r77/27, derby, Mica and Astra. How do you counter such a variety. Not to mention the radars, and EW kit involved.

I do hope that the 12 new mki being ordered are super standard though.

The Navy too will have 2 cvbg operational along with 9 kilos and 6 scorpene + 4 type 209s. That's a strong roster, perhaps the strongest in years.

Pakis will be rendered null and void. And the Chinese will find that their soft underbelly both in the north and the IOR will be considerably exposed. No wonder they want to pick a fight now.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Jun 2020 11:01

Kamran Husain wrote:Hi Larry

Personally, I feel that the government should have from April / May 2020 should have told the country that China was trying to alter the status quo in various parts of the LAC. It should have told the country that this is a serious situation but our forces are capable and there are enough boots on the ground to maintain the status quo. It should have asked all the political parties for support in this critical time. (We had economy trouble, migrant issue, lock down, corona increase- all happening simultaneously).

I think one of the main reasons why 1962 happened was because of public pressure. But why was the public pressure allowed to be built up to that level? I guess because the entire nation felt betrayed by China after the whole hindi chini bhai bhai fiasco. Government knew from the 1950's about the Chinese incursion but did not appraise the people about it.

Let us remember that only a well informed citizenry can take a correct decision. If the government does not want the public pressure to build up then it has to communicate the facts on the ground clearly.

I could not have said it better.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Jun 2020 11:27

General P Ravi Shankar shares more details.

https://www.gunnersshot.com/2020/06/the ... ew=classic

There is clarity that the Chinese did something typically characteristic of China – “Attempted a stab in the back”. Post the agreement of 06 Jun, the Chinese pretended to disengage from the Galwan Area. In doing so, they lured a small party of 16 BIHAR into a premeditated ambush. When reinforcements led by the CO of 16 BIHAR came to the rescue of the ambushed party, they were apparently attacked by a larger Chinese party in hiding. Further reinforcements from the battalion and 3 Medium Regiment, an Artillery unit deployed in the vicinity rushed in from our side. Pitched hand to hand combat started. Slowly the tide turned due to ferocity of our counterattack despite being outnumbered 3:1 by the Chinese. The treacherous Chinese plan, as reconstructed, was to heavily outnumber and massacre the Indians in the ambush. After achieving that, proclaim that the Indians violated the agreement and interfered in their ‘peaceful disengagement’. Globally, pose as the disciplined and innocent Chinese who defended themselves against an aggressive Indian Force in their territory. They would declare themselves as the injured party to spin a story that what they did was in self-defense. A small Chinese Force slays a stronger Indian Army! What Propaganda! What Myth! The idea was to teach the Indian Army and the world a lesson through influence ops - DON’T MESS WITH CHINA. THE CONSEQUENCES WILL BE BRUTAL. This tactical action would have huge geostrategic ramifications and gain.

Unfortunately, they came across the Indian Army which fought back with unexpected ferocity. In this melee many Chinese bunched up on a ledge. It gave way and many of them fell to their death. That is besides those who suffered at the hands of the outnumbered but ferocious Indians. There is no doubt that India lost a brave Commanding Officer and 19 soldiers, but our valiant soldiers inflicted out of proportion casualties. Galwan will go down in the annals of Indian Military History as an incident which upset China’s applecart. Yes. This tactical action will have great geostrategic ramifications; not in the way China imagined.

It is an old saying that 100 soldiers marching on a bridge makes it collapse. Hereafter the saying will be ‘300 dumb Chinese soldiers standing on a ledge will make it collapse’. What were 300 soldiers doing on a Himalayan ledge bunched up like goons on the Shanghai waterfront? It is obvious that the Chinese have no concept of the Himalayan Terrain, where maximum casualties occur due to the environment rather than enemy action. In any case the overall behavior of the PLA has been so poor that it does not befit a modern Army or a great power. If anything this action has exposed the severe character and tactical flaws of PLA. The Indian Army will hereafter exploit it ruthlessly.

Which nation or Army hides its casualties? One that does not have honor or one that is outdone or one that fears the outcome of the casualties it has suffered. I find shades of all three in the PLA. It is dishonorable to carry out a premeditated ambush after an agreement to disengage has been reached. It is not the time-tested code of a noble soldier or a warrior. It is the DNA of ignoble thugs. You plan an unethical ambush. You outnumber the opposition. You suffer casualties which you do not declare. You are outdone Chinaman! China fears declaring casualties. Are they more than even the intercepts? Weibo chatter suggests so. There is also apprehension and tension there. Despite the Chinese canard to downplay numbers to control the situation, prevent escalation, and claim victory; the reality is different. If the numbers are declared, the true worth of PLA soldiers against battle hardened opposition will be nakedly exposed. If PLA suffers more than twice the casualties in a preplanned ambush where its strength is thrice that of Indian Army, where will the morale of PLA be? In the BOOTS! Clearly the PLA has suffered unexplainable and undisclosable casualties in an ambush it has meticulously planned as a coup de grace. That was pretty apparent from the face of the Chinese Spokesperson Zhao Lijian. Normally he is incisive, sharp, and arrogantly dismissive. He bristles with aggression in his answers and in brushing off queries. He was the poster boy “Wolf Warrior” of China when the Wuhan Virus was blooming. When the presser was held on the Galwan Incident, he was subdued and evasive like a ‘Bheegi Billi’ (wet cat). Obviously, the numbers were playing in his head. None of that customary swagger was evident in his body language. He was deliberate and repeatedly side-stepped questions on the number of casualties. This ‘Wolf Warrior’ had become a ‘Gidad’(jackal). This article is written in The Global Times mold. The Global Times reports on this action are like ‘meows’. Read them. That Editor should know how it feels to read an uncouth article. (I hope he reads it). Let us be clear. PLA is not yet up to it. Spare a thought. The Chinese Soldiers who laid down their lives fighting for their cause, deserve honorable last rites. Even that has been denied to them. Sad. What is this nation which does not honor its dead? It is the nation called China run by the Communist Party which once drove its people to cannibalism. Why? Food was being exported to enrich the Communist Party when its own people were being driven to death by starvation. Honor seems to be nonexistent in China. Great Civilization! My foot.

There are strategic ramifications of Chinese actions in Galwan. India will not yield or blink. There is political consensus to face up to China. India will only harden its stand. Status Quo Ante as of April 2020 or nothing. If that does not happen, the LAC will remain manned fully. Which means China can not pull its troops out if the situation deteriorates elsewhere. This will slowly but steadily build and solidify world opinion against China. Others will also show eyes. Matter of time. If the tension lasts, as it promises to, all economic ties will go Southwards. The people of India will ensure that. The longer this tension lasts and the longer the Virus lasts, the greater will be China’s problems. The larger ramification – never trust China. This is another stigma which the nation must bear alongside its pet virus.

I think China has very seriously miscalculated on the Indian Armed Forces. They should know what they are up against. The India Armed Forces are the toughest in the world. Did those stupid Pakistanis not advise the Chinese? They should know that in 1971, Captain Mulla of Indian Navy went down with his ship in an awesome example of sacrifice and embracing death in the highest traditions of a soldier. However, is that too ancient? Let us get to recent examples. Wing Commander Abhinandan was captured by Pakistan in 2019. The best comment about him came from a US originated Tweet. It read - ‘If that dude sporting a moustache says he killed an F-16 then he did. After a dog fight, ejecting, being beaten up by the locals and interrogated he complimented the opposition on the quality of their tea. Balls Incarnate’. Cut to the chase. Anand Mahindra, the well-known industrialist tweeted ‘Watched the parents of martyred Col. Babu being interviewed on TV channels. I was struck by their composure, courage & pride. If this steel spine runs through all parents of our armed forces personnel, then our adversaries should recognize they are up against an unyielding force’. That is the Indian Army, Navy and Air Force – Unyielding and Tough.

An incisive message is on the social media probably, by an ex US Marine, says "As an ex-marine, I'll say this: India is the most unrecognized power in the world. Most of the East India Company and later the British Raj was made up of Indian soldiers who were used to control Asia and Africa. They fought in Afghanistan. And more recently in 5 wars with Pakistan. They also fought 2 wars with China, 1962 and 1967. In 62 they were unprepared but in 67 they won against China. Also, 2 million Indians fought in WW2 for the British. And, Indian troops in the UN peace keeping mission are the best performers during operations. India also won 1 major mock air force war against USA during training, some years ago -- surprising us all. Mate! China has no clue what it is taking on. Not to mention the Indians have been fighting wars on and on for centuries."

Finally an ex GOC of the Trishul Division, now retired, said - Imagine what a huge setback for PLA and China if a premeditated and planned op goes so horribly wrong that they lost large number of troops… I think our troops have done a fantastic job. They have taught Chinese a good lesson. Minus 6 degrees C, at 16000 feet plus, went to their occupied position, knocked out 30 plus of PLA. Great work by IA. He knows the reality of what his Division has achieved.

Every Chinese citizen who is reading this article should take note of what the PLA is up against – Unyielding Hardened Steel. All the best. Forget your propaganda videos. Let us get real.

Every Indian citizen should know who is defending them and against what. Be proud that your Armed Forces are laying down their lives without a second thought to overcome all odds so that you can sleep well at home.

The Indian Soldier is the best in the business irrespective of the color of his uniform. As a veteran, my only request to my country is – please Arm these boys better and Pay them well. They will win the world for us.

Theirs not to question why, theirs but to do and die.

With a difference. With victory at their feet.

PS

News reports suggest that the Chinese have released our officers and men who were detained. Some of these reports are bordering on derogation. My horse sense tweeted that there was an exchange. Consider this. It was reported widely that on the morning following the incident, the PLA requested for a meeting at 0730h. Why would they do that? Thought of it? Either to recover bodies which would have got washed downstream to Shyok or seek an exchange since some senior or important person was with us! My guess is both. There is more to it. It is high time some of our Veterans and Media appreciate what our Generals, Commanders, Officers and Men are doing there. Our next generation is better than us. Let them do their job. They will bring laurels to the nation as we once did. Carry on boys. Well done and keep it up.

The Chinese are not 10 Feet tall. Post Galwan, they are lesser than half of that.

Jai hind

Posted 3 hours ago by Palepu Ravi Shankar

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 21 Jun 2020 11:34

AshishAcharya wrote:
hanumadu wrote:
And how do you know this? If they can achieve what ever they planned, then they would be gods, no? If their plan is to lose 50 or 100 men in a scuffle, then it's not much of a plan.
First of all men are expendable to them. They threw 10s of thousands of men in human wave tactics against USA. They didn't have any problem in hiding thousands of China Virus casualties. 50-100 people are nothing compared to what they can hide.

Second, when I said they have plan, I didn't say they will necessarily succeed in that said plan. Or else they would have won Vietnam.

Third I believe we still don't have a adequate understanding of the psyche of enemy like we have of Pakistanis. Language barriers and other restrictions make china a very closed nation. Hence, we need to know how the enemy thinks before proposing actions against them.

Lastly, when I said they don't do anything without planning I said it keeping in mind the history of CCP from Korean war to Tiannamen Massacre to Xinjiang repression. And moreover, Xi is a very careful man. He had seen his father's fall from power and that shaped his thinking into carefully planning it out, keeping his presence low and not letting his enemies know what he is thinking.

Sure boss, they are masters at planning and India and Indian army will make sure all their plans succeed. Basically you are saying, what ever happens it is because the chinese were successful in executing their plans without hindrance. Looks like you know Xi Jinping more than he knows himself. While is a master planner whose left hand doesn't know what his right hand is doing, India's plans are all predictable and open for all to see.

I wonder what is with all the talk that his own head is on the line. Forget about India, he would be lucky if he manages to keep the PLA and CCP from baying for his blood.

gashish · Post by **gashish** » 21 Jun 2020 11:43

Content is in hindi.

Zee News reporting 45-50 PLA soldiers killed.

A PLA colonel of 3 medium regiment (?) was also captured. Gen VK Singh did hint in his ABP interview that we to captured some of PLA soldiers.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Jun 2020 11:46

https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... d-6464421/

The 20 soldiers who lost their lives in the clash with Chinese troops in Galwan Valley of Ladakh on Monday night belonged to six different units of the Army, including three infantry battalions and two artillery regiments.

This gives an indication of well prepared Indian posture for offence or defence, including Artillery, Signals and Medical Corps.

The sheer number of units deployed (3 Infantry 2 Artillery) in the immediate area is itself quite overwhelmingly disproportionate.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Jun 2020 11:47

gashish wrote:Content is in hindi.

Zee News reporting 45-50 PLA soldiers killed.

A PLA colonel of 3 medium regiment (?) was also captured. Gen VK Singh did hint in his ABP interview that we to captured some of PLA soldiers.

3 Medium Regiment is an Indian Artillery Unit deployed in that area as per Lt. General P Ravi Shankar, former commandant, Indian Artillery. That part doesnt seem correct. It is a Sikh unit, and its martyrs are mentioned in the Indian Express article. There is also a Tamil Artillery regiment whose soldier was also martyred.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Jun 2020 11:51

gashish wrote:Content is in hindi.

Zee News reporting 45-50 PLA soldiers killed.

A PLA colonel of 3 medium regiment (?) was also captured. Gen VK Singh did hint in his ABP interview that we to captured some of PLA soldiers.

The problem I have believing this why would we release him without agreement on Finger 4 to 8 , yes we could have traded him for our men.

banrjeer · Post by **banrjeer** » 21 Jun 2020 11:55

What I hear about China’s panga with so many adversaries is Xi is feeling the pinch of tarriff And covid. He is courting crisis to stifle potential internal dissent in the party.

The US/west creates bogies like saddam, osama and Then is forced to destroy them. China is like that on a much larger scale. They rose to power by being the west’s mfg hub and then the worlds. It will take Concerted effort to bring them back to heel.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Jun 2020 12:05

It is high time some of our Veterans and Media appreciate what our Generals, Commanders, Officers and Men are doing there. Our next generation is better than us.

Lt. General P Ravi Shankar's retort to Ajai Shukla and Amrinder Singh

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 21 Jun 2020 12:07

tsarkar wrote:
gashish wrote:Content is in hindi.

Zee News reporting 45-50 PLA soldiers killed.

A PLA colonel of 3 medium regiment (?) was also captured. Gen VK Singh did hint in his ABP interview that we to captured some of PLA soldiers.
3 Medium Regiment is an Indian Artillery Unit deployed in that area as per Lt. General P Ravi Shankar, former commandant, Indian Artillery. That part doesnt seem correct. It is a Sikh unit, and its martyrs are mentioned in the Indian Express article. There is also a Tamil Artillery regiment whose soldier was also martyred.

Tsarkar Sir,

Is not Arty all India all class.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 21 Jun 2020 12:37

The following four YT links are remarks / assessments from four different IA generals (retd.) who have served in this theater and know what they are talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La0qngJWls0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6589rl-mTHQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPh_rRtVL2o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEpXtmgTBuQ&t=26s

Everyone please watch these videos -- the Chinese are not ten feet tall, they are not some super-geniuses who always have a cunning plan for everything, and above all, India has no need to panic or dhoti-shiver. The tone of some of the posts in this thread is getting really tiresome / weepy / whiny.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » 21 Jun 2020 13:23

A new story posted by Shiv Aroor -- Not sure of his "credentials" -- /politics/...

Hopefully it's NOT a SPINNING DERVISH like SAW-HONEY and his grandma.

Summary:

Agreement reached -- with regular group of PLA deployed.

Suddenly this "PLA group" moved out and FRESHLY arrived -- PLA meat was deployed -- They immediately put up a new TENT across the LAC.

Col Babu went to investigate -- when he was SHOVED hard back to ground by PLA co, this STARTED the FIRST brawl in which the PLA were hammered ...

Read more here ..
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/3 ... 2020-06-21

2nd BRAWL -- when a group of PLA hidden behind rock's & ridges dropped massive boulders down the slope, one of them struck Col Babu -- who then fell into the Galwan river.

3rd Brawl -- The GHATAKs from 3 different regiments rushed in and gave the PLA a hiding that they will hopefully REMEMBER for next 10 generations ..

It is VERY important THAT the FRESH PLA meat experienced this -- BECAUSE -- whent hey sit around the campfire /tent -- the FEAR of going out again will make them BROWN their pants.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 21 Jun 2020 13:24

Is it also possible that the skirmishes on Indian border might be a distraction for a larger Chinese military operation on some other border.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 21 Jun 2020 13:31

This massive build up at multiple points along the DS-DBO axis by China, in my view, doesn't seem to have major territorial gain objectives.

The present objectives of their build up seem to be:
- Test their own deployment capabilities in the region and work out any kinks in their operations
- See how India reacts and responds as a country - its leadership, people, media, industry
- See how our military responds - what additional capabilities do we deploy, how long it takes, any new stuff we take out of the bag,
- What bottle necks and chinks show up in the above, vulnerabilities, fault lines
- How we engage the international community, our friends and allies, foreign policy reaction

This may explain their slow and steady build up, to draw us out with threatening postures.

However this is not an empty threat. If there are opportunistic tactical gains to be made, they are ready to get into action and grab some fingers or square kms. And then back off, while retaining a more advantageous position for the next round.

There is perhaps another 3 months of window for this game to play out before temperatures really drop and the area becomes hard to operate in and then nearly impossible when winter sets in.

India's posture is like a Lion seemingly resting under a tree while the Hyena coveting its territory is sniffing around, poking about, trying to get close and perhaps steal a morsel. It got an unexpected paw jab and is hurting right now.

India doing the right thing, not reacting too much and not revealing its cards. Like DeanS reminds us, we are playing this from close to home while they are 3000 kms and several days away from reinforcements.

We will know the balloon has gone up when some Sugary boxes fall from sky but never reach the ground.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 21 Jun 2020 13:49

bharathp wrote: take the POK in next 5 years, once the 0.5 war is won.

then, get ready for a showdown with China as equals.

my two cents.

The internal front cannot be won directly by GoI. Once GoI shows intent and will power by taking over PoK and GB to start with, the BIF will either go underground or will be challenged and politically thrashed and marginalised by the bulk of the population that they will become irrelevant.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 21 Jun 2020 13:59

Moral of the story is that Chinese along with their bitch will never sit by-the-side and let India rise. A war with them is fait accompli when we start rising into a regional superpower and we need to rise so that we can give our larger population hope and basic amenities of life. This is like Mahabharat war - the war decides future - this is not some fight for few kms of land or a strategic road here or there - all these names of places and roads are just incidental bahana's since CPC cannot directly say they don't want India to rise.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jun 2020 14:10

In the boycott China national people's campaign which is gathering pace, a host of pro-Chinese "Quis-ling" have suddenly appeared out of the woodwork giving any number of reasons why we should be dependent on China,in fact advocating a tighter embrace,or rather a more servile kowtow to the dragon! One can only conjecture whether they are benefiting economically from taking this perverted attitude. Astonishing!

We are on the path of "make in India",firmly supportedby thf govt. and PM in particular. Yes,there are many items where Chin components are reqd. ,but our industry can and MUST find alternatives from within and without the country. We will have an interim period of transiting from a China-dependent fconomyvto that of a China-free one. One specious argument was about cheaper Chin toys. Who needsthese cheap toxic toys for our children! Let them play with traditional Indian toys too,not just Barbie Dolls and filmi souvenir crap that does nothing to stimulate the mind. I havd made many a visit to the world famous Hamley's in London to look for suitable toys that spurred interest in science, building modules and components like those great Meccano sets of yore. I had to hunt hard. A stream of Hollywood souvgnirs,Harry Potter wands, Jurassic Park dinosaurs,Marvel superheroes,etc. filled most shelves. I found better children's gift at the V&A Museum,National History Museum ,British Museum and other famous places ,which educated children in history,geography,science,etc.All the crappy stuff was made in China.Even fake native African handicrafts in antique fairs which were beggaring the poor African tribals!

When it comes to defence,there is acute hypocrisy.These same advocates of dependence upon China suddenly take the opposite view that " nothing" firang must bf used in Indian made weapon systems.That is an impossibility if you look at any desi programme,where a goodly % depending upon the system,is firang. Without this % of key components like the LCA's engine for example, the programme would get inordinately delayed or fail. Is this a subtle conspiracy to damage the preparedness of the Indian defence services.

I can only surmise that the Chins have steadily bought over a number of Quis-Lings in our media,etc., to promote China First,not India. Key weapon systems have been acquired both from east and west like Chinooks,P-8Is,Apaches outright. Other acquisitions approved but delayed inordinately are the KA-226 helos, AK infantry assault weapon, C-295 transports, anc others.
With the crisis on hand may I quote the former Chin party leader Deng Tsiao Peng who famously said it didn't matter whatthe colour of a cat was as long as it caught mice. In similar fashion may I say that it does not matter it does not matter where the weapons come from as long as they kill Chinese...and Pakistanis!

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 21 Jun 2020 14:29

Kamranji, talking about Chinese buildup during April timeframe would have completely disarrayed our Covid-19 preperation and fight. BIF would have gone full-out saying Modi failed on internal as well as external front. It would have caused utter chaos with migrant crisis coupled with at that time a hypothetical Chinese Dragon about to swoop down. Even now when GoI gave full details and PM assures that we did not loose any land - BIF is still creating chaos, imagine that in April there was nothing for GoI to demonstrate that they will push back the Chinese. So I think GoI did the right thing of quitely but feverishly building up against Chinese without creating distraction from the Corona crisis.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 21 Jun 2020 14:31

Even in the current conflagration, it almost went as per Chinese plan, except that punya-aatma of Major Shaitan Singh and his Ahir's rose up and 16 Bihar did the unthinkable. Else GoI would have been on backfoot with KIA and PoW's.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 21 Jun 2020 14:37

What was the Chinese plan exactly, what all went as per? Please educate us Sir

banrjeer · Post by **banrjeer** » 21 Jun 2020 14:51

Xi faces political instability from within his party in a post US tariff covid scenario. Thats the reason China is picking fights with so many people.
Avg Chinese have so far been kept in then dark about the border standoff with India. The audience is not the lay public but the communist party where dissent may arise.