India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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pankajs
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by pankajs »

darshan wrote:Chinese have lot of toys to fight from distance. Missiles to drones. Plus the production capacity to keep replenishment to have multiple waves.

What are the most likely options for India if they just resort to remote controlled warfare only?

What to prioritize?

Destruction of pakis?
Take out chinese factories to stop replenishment?
Navy blockade?
Take out military assets?
Go on LAC and LOC offensives?
.......
Remote controlled warfare looks and sound spectacular but without ground forces to hold territory it is of little use.

We launch our forces into Tibet and go after their military assets with the intent to hold choke points.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by vishvak »

KL Dubey wrote:^^Yes, the PRC is the new "evil empire". We must take it down, but also need a roadmap for afterwards. If we are not a leader in this effort, then the cure may be worse than the disease. ..
..
Beyond that, things like liberating Tibet, destabilizing Turkestan and Xinjiang, etc. must also have the objective of destabilizing the regime in Beijing.
This is where policies like non-aligned, or other quoted by EAM as 'interests coincide but never converge', and such help to avoid confusing population.

Alignment with USA has its own problems of dependence and that few like Japanese have tech prowess to shine amidst there between USA and China.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by bharathp »

ok, I have been lurker for sometime and I have some questions that are still not answered
1) Why hasnt china declared the number of dead/casualties even if its 0? if this is the case (That they havent disclosed) why cant we use it to the fullest extent (china is so badly beaten that it wont disclose its casualties)
2) there was a talk of annexing Nepal/Bhutan a few posts back. why? India doesnt need to become China (who annexed Tibet and now want Ladakh maybe) we need them to become strong and chose India as friend by choice not by compulsion?
3) if China + TSP combination was so advanced (due to chinese MIC and TSP's free cannon fodder) - why havent they combined forces yet on siachen? or will this be the watershed moment?

whichever way, I hope this will be our 1962 moment of rude shock to whip up our own MIC and concentrate on desi systems. if the IA comes out and says "we had to import shells/bullets because OFB quality was below par" what amount of unionism can save OFB?

we need to keep hitting the point as how our MIC is no match to China's and we need to strengthen it. every month, every year until we get to that point.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by nam »

Instead of ideas like taking over PoK or Tibet, we need to have a simple objective.

Decimation of adversary forces on West(Pak/Pak+Chini) or the Eastern(Chini) front, before they cause major damage to our country.

Destruction of their fighting capability is the foremost requirement.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by KL Dubey »

pankajs wrote:
Pashupatastra wrote:Brahma Chellany blames Modi's naivete in excessive engagement with Xi Xingping and over personalisation of foreign policy. He interestingly compares Modi's visit to China akin to Vajpayee's visit to Lahore as part of bus diplomacy. He also expresses fear that India has failed Bhutan in Doklam.

India’s appeasement policy toward China unravels
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/20 ... -unravels/
I don't buy Chellany main thrust.
I agree. NaMo has checked off all the "due diligence" items. A lot of credit must be given for this, because it is the base on which we can build bigger things. We must now start taking things to the next level. We cannot only be seen as a "benign" force but also as a large power that can make "unpopular" decisions - like the annexation of Nepal and Bhutan being the low hanging fruit - in the greater interest of preventing these places from becoming commie/CCP-infested cesspools in our neighborhood. After "swachh bharat" abhiyan we now need a "swachh pados" abhiyan.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by nam »

Oh, by the way, notice how we have publicly announced that "due to the crisis, we will be buying Mig29 from Russia and Excalibur rounds from US"..

Imagine having an adversary who receives arms from both the premium superpower of the world, while all you can do is stand there and scratch your nose .. :rotfl:
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by NRao »

nam wrote:Instead of ideas like taking over PoK or Tibet, we need to have a simple objective.

Decimation of adversary forces on West(Pak/Pak+Chini) or the Eastern(Chini) front, before they cause major damage to our country.

Destruction of their fighting capability is the foremost requirement.
Yes!

In addition, lead at WHO and work to make a difference at the UNSC, starting 2021.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by KL Dubey »

nam wrote:Instead of ideas like taking over PoK or Tibet, we need to have a simple objective.

Decimation of adversary forces on West(Pak/Pak+Chini) or the Eastern(Chini) front, before they cause major damage to our country.

Destruction of their fighting capability is the foremost requirement.
We have *already* achieved that objective, and it will be cemented further once all the needed border infrastructure is completed. That is why neither Paks nor Chinese have launched any military offensive since 1999, because they know the price will be too steep. Just showing up at the border in numbers and trying to needle us is not "fighting". If they felt they could cause major damage, they would....neither Pak or China has any moral or ethical basis.
Last edited by KL Dubey on 24 Jun 2020 03:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by banrjeer »

nam wrote:Oh, by the way, notice how we have publicly announced that "due to the crisis, we will be buying Mig29 from Russia and Excalibur rounds from US"..

Imagine having an adversary who receives arms from both the premium superpower of the world, while all you can do is stand there and scratch your nose .. :rotfl:
Turkey's been doing that for a while
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by darshan »

pankajs wrote: Remote controlled warfare looks and sound spectacular but without ground forces to hold territory it is of little use.

We launch our forces into Tibet and go after their military assets with the intent to hold choke points.
I should have stated the assumption that they don't want to utilize their ground forces and want to keep them in defensive posture. Nothing to do with spectacular except as chinese those are my strong points right now.

Essentially as chinese, I have realized that it's possible to loose face with a ground attack and I want to hold it back but want to utilize my plus points of being able to build and replenish things faster than India. For each dollar of mine, cause India to loose many times more. And, my main target for time being leadership change in India. I'll get my territory and shock and awe later while keeping everything at a tolerance level for now.

Would India exhaust its weapons? or opt to escalate to settle the business for once and all? Or.....
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by nam »

KL Dubey wrote:
We have *already* achieved that objective, and it will be cemented further once all the needed border infrastructure is completed. That is why neither Paks nor Chinese have launched any military offensive since 1999, because they know the price will be too steep. Just showing up at the border in numbers and trying to needle us is not "fighting". If they felt they could cause major damage, they would....neither Pak or China has any moral or ethical basis.
No, we haven't. We can defend the line, but cannot decimate them quick enough. Pak hasn't done it for economic reason. If it is secured of money, it will arm itself and try again.

Result of this is that we are fighting a war as equals. This forces us to prevent escalation or agreed to a ceasefire, because there is a stalemate. This encourages salami tactics.

We need to win. Decisively.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by vishvak »

If we have enough knowledge of rules by UN and such international treaties why by anyone's lackey and not figure out how to go about doing things on own.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Raveen »

nam wrote:Oh, by the way, notice how we have publicly announced that "due to the crisis, we will be buying Mig29 from Russia and Excalibur rounds from US"..

Imagine having an adversary who receives arms from both the premium superpower of the world, while all you can do is stand there and scratch your nose .. :rotfl:
Russia hasn't been a superpower in a while
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Pratyush wrote:
Will the INC campaign still work in case actual shooting starts and India holds its ground?

If not then why do this?

The INC has totally lost its marbles.
Sometimes back I discussed India China pak war scenario with a loyal 3rd generation Congressi (voluntary worker nothing higher) he had this to say, which he heard from some senior:

"In '62 china won by sending human wave after wave using soldiers as fodder canons, BUT this time CANON FODDER WILL BE 25 LAKH PAKI TERRORISTS LIKE KASAB BY VARIOUS TANZEEMS,
So Indian army will face Chinese soldiers + 7 lakh paki official army + 25 lakh terrorist soldiers, the combination will be a handful, also China will want to stretch war longer so India's Platinum plated weaponry gets exhausted & then China with its superior production numbers will overwhelm India. India anyway is weak in large and fast quantities of production. So India will have to surrender."

Probably ConParty Senior leadership Ghulam nabi azad, salman khushid, sonja, rahul, Manmohan et al are counting on resounding defeat of India, so they can jeer Modi and BJP.

Modi a Defense-uneducated misguided by top armed FORCES that only PLATINUM BULLETS Like 36 Rafale, S-400 & 40 Apache, K9 Vajra will make us undefeatable believed that and never ordered even 83 Tejas, LCH, Arjun, Nag+NAMICA, 3600 Dhanush ARTILLERY.

Let's see how it pans out. I don't think Xi can be pressured by EU to cut short the war.

All past military men of Bharat put their eggs in ONE BASKET and that ONE BASKET was "ALL FUTURE WARS WILL BE SHORT-N-SHARP WARS" Based on this they based their all planning. And why not SHORT-N-SHARP means it's enough to import GOLDPLATED IMPORTED WEAPONS keeping everyone happy.

China will now exploit this a drag war as long as possible.

During Doklam Mort Walker had said "If India had 400 Tejas today, China would not have dared to do Doklam" he was so right. Even if we had 180 Tejas LOC today China would have been deterred.
Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 24 Jun 2020 03:40, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Raveen »

Manish_Sharma wrote: Sometimes back I discussed India China pak war scenario with a loyal 3rd generation Congressi (voluntary worker nothing higher) he had this to say, which he heard from some senior:
EU is a eunuch in all of this, with 1/2 of the members already sold to China
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by nachiket »

Raveen wrote: We certainly do, and we need to make the QUAD dream come true. At the end of the day, there is no denying we aren't able to do more than withstand, albeit while inflicting massive pain. We should consider a mutual defence agreement with the QUAD, that will make the Hans shiver in their quiver without pulling the sword out.
What exactly do we imagine the QUAD will do for us if the balloon goes up? The only country in the QUAD with any significant offensive capability against the PRC is the US. The Japanese have a good defensive capability to check Chinese misadventures on disputed islands but little beyond that. And they are unlikely to get themselves actively involved in a shooting war between India and China. The less said about Australia the better.

Conversely if Japan and PRC got into a spat over the Senkaku islands or something, do you see us getting involved in it? The QUAD is never going to be NATO.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ramana »

Galwan, Sirjap, Pangong Tso all are repeats of 1962 War. Please read an account of what happened in that year:

IDR Border war with China



Google Books:

1962 View from Other side of Hill
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by nam »

Raveen wrote:
nam wrote:Oh, by the way, notice how we have publicly announced that "due to the crisis, we will be buying Mig29 from Russia and Excalibur rounds from US"..

Imagine having an adversary who receives arms from both the premium superpower of the world, while all you can do is stand there and scratch your nose .. :rotfl:
Russia hasn't been a superpower in a while
They are the second largest arms exporter. What ultimately matters.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by TandavBrahmand »

bharathp wrote:ok, I have been lurker for sometime and I have some questions that are still not answered

2) there was a talk of annexing Nepal/Bhutan a few posts back. why? India doesnt need to become China (who annexed Tibet and now want Ladakh maybe) we need them to become strong and chose India as friend by choice not by compulsion?
I have a counterpoint - not that I am advocating annexure of Nepal or Bhutan. But to think that "friends" would help during such a crisis be flawed thinking. Even today, one cannot imagine a "friendly" Bangladesh or Srilanka will let us use their bases or land to protect India. Every independent nation in our periphery will be balancing India and China and we would be on the receiving end of the bargain most of the time. Even for nominal support, we will be left to hoping for favorable leadership at the right juncture. Look what happened to Maldives and Srilankan regimes. Imagine if god forbid J&K had been declared a country/autonomous in 47, do you think they will let us use its land for us to protect? We have to get out of this mindset that we do not want anyone's territory - why not? If that is in our national and cultural interest we shouldn't put that off the table. Being a "goody" has not served us well in the last few centuries.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Roop »

Pashupatastra wrote:Brahma Chellany blames Modi's naivete in excessive engagement with Xi Xingping and over personalisation of foreign policy. He interestingly compares Modi's visit to China akin to Vajpayee's visit to Lahore as part of bus diplomacy.
In general, I have several complaints about Chellany, but here he does have at least one valid criticism: Modi's excessive personalization of foreign policy. I cringe every time I see him hugging some foreign leader. :x I wish he would stop it and switch to just plain handshakes. I believe this hugging business leads Modi to personally trust the words of these foreing leaders more than he should.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by darshan »

Manish_Sharma wrote:All past military men of Bharat put their eggs in ONE BASKET and that ONE BASKET was "ALL FUTURE WARS WILL BE SHORT-N-SHARP WARS" Based on this they based their all planning. And why not SHORT-N-SHARP means it's enough to import GOLDPLATED IMPORTED WEAPONS keeping everyone happy.

China will now exploit this a drag war as long as possible.

During Doklam Mort Walker had said "If India had 400 Tejas today, China would not have dared to do Doklam" he was so right. Even if we had 180 Tejas LOC today China would have been deterred.
Thanks for describing the scenario that I have been thinking about for few days. As a chinese, I essentially move to my next plan on the board as situation develops. Constraint being that I come out ahead and that's the only thing that matters. If I get a regime changed combined with attrition of all war reserves then I can always go back and get my territory.

May be GoI to keep it under the threshold went for infrastructure alone instead of simultaneously going for local MIC and infrastructure. Now from the chinese perspective, I want to capitalize on this.
Last edited by darshan on 24 Jun 2020 04:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by KL Dubey »

The thread is focused on "border security". Not US military alliance or politics.

No border is ever 100% "secure". Not India-Pak, not India-China, not US-Mexico, not N/S-Korea.

In order to achieve border security, there are "on the ground" things that are needed, as well as a bigger picture in the background.

We are at the moment OK with the "on the ground" things as far as the LOC and LAC are concerned. Continued defense expenditure and planning, and infrastructure buildup, are necessary and the goremint is already doing that. This gets all the headlines, especially now.

The India-Bangladesh border (illegal immigrant invasion) is a different story not for this thread.

Now, the bigger picture is that we have not fully asserted a single rule of law in territories that are part of Akhand Bharat. Termites are breeding in our backyard while we are out shopping for planes internationally. We are getting a handle on J&K now. Ladakhis are firmly with us.

Why annex Nepal and Bhutan ? At the very least, the same reason why we annexed Hyderabad, Goa, Sikkim, et al. In all these cases, there was a clear danger (or already the case) of the area (A) becoming a breeding ground/colony for foreign interests, or (B) having a "dharmic" population being repressed or in danger of being overrun by enemies.

It is the same with Bhutan and Nepal. The former (like Sikkim) is in danger of being overrun by China, and the latter is already a failed commie state which plays mischief with support from CCP and Paks but depends on India to keep the lights on.

Annexation of Nepal and Bhutan will overnight create 1000 km of India-China border fully controlled by us. This is an excellent way of furthering border security. Truly a case of "offensive defense" without firing a shot on any current India-China border/LAC. Not only that, internally it will add 20 million odd Hindoo and Boodist voters, with another CAA provision if needed to accommodate them. The Indian armed forces are already mobilized all along the Himalayas, so this is best time to do it and prevent any misadventures by the Chinese across the Bhutan border.

We need to be honest with the international community. No country that matters will reject the argument that a prosperous, democratic Indian Nepal is better for its citizens rather than putting up with another CCP-supported commie sh!thole in the middle of Asia. There will be those who complain, but nothing will happen.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by pandyan »

Karan M wrote:The PRC is an evil nation due to its amoral establishment and a people, who like with the Nazis in WW2 go along with it as it benefits them - it is a complete and total disgrace to humanity and India should do all it can to bring it down.

Read this account of their attack on Vietnam. They deliberately targeted civilians, including women, children.

PRC soldiers and the PRC establishment deserve no mercy. Sadly Delhi has been long occupied by "appeasment experts" and they have long led our policy astray. Modi has a chance now to reverse decades of foolishness, and he shouldn't let it go.

https://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/remem ... 42147.html
“Everyone has a plan 'til they get punched in the face.” ~~ Mike Tyson
Chinese Communist Party can make all grand plans until they are brought to reality with a sweet punch to their face.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ldev »

ramdas wrote:
Do'nt you think our nuclear deterrent has any weight when it comes to preventing China from going all out against us conventionally ? Getting rid of our no first use would certainly help enhance its efficacy.
So they capture Leh, improbable but let us say they do it.

Or they fire off 400 conventional SRBMs on north and east Indian cities and cause civilian terror, dislocation of urban life etc.

Do you advocate that India lobs a nuclear missile into the Chinese heartland? What will the response be? India's Agni 3s and Agni 2s are the delivery vehicles that have the reach for the Chinese heartland. The PLA Rocket Forces upwards of a 100 nuclear warhead missiles that can target India. Is that the endgame that you think that the Indian political leadership will go for. Or do you think that a single Indian nuclear warhead detonating in the Chinese heartland will stop the PLA in it's tracks?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Rakesh »

This is the Indo-China Border Thread. What is going on in here? :roll:

Thread Clean Up and Ban Time it looks like!

Khan you are out.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Karan M »

Just to reiterate the kind of people we face.

http://www.thanhniennews.com/politics/v ... -1844.html
The Chinese invasion began in April the same year with massive shelling of what are now Tuyen Quang, Ha Giang, Lang Son, Quang Ninh, Cao Bang, Lao Cai, Yen Bai, and Lai Chau Provinces.
Unofficial statistics estimate China fired nearly 1.9 million artillery shells into Vietnam, including up to 61,000 in a day.

Many Vietnamese civilians had also been killed during a 17-day war started by China in February 1979 when it sent more than 600,000 troops into Vietnam.
Because the Vietnamese had just fought the US, they had no fancy HR advocates to hold the Chinese accountable for war crimes.

The Chinese Army is an idealogical, evil force. It seeks to overcome by terrorizing civilians what it can't win on the ground. Net, BM strikes against cities can't be ruled out.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Rakesh »

Thread has now been cleaned up. Please continue, but only on topic at hand.

Alliances with phoren countries in other threads please, not in here.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Davidrock »

nam wrote:Instead of ideas like taking over PoK or Tibet, we need to have a simple objective.

Decimation of adversary forces on West(Pak/Pak+Chini) or the Eastern(Chini) front, before they cause major damage to our country.

Destruction of their fighting capability is the foremost requirement.
There is no capability destruction, that cannot be recovered in few years.

What we need to do is get hold of small/tactical points, which will help us later.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ramdas »

@ldev:

While 400 conventional SRBMs would cause civilian terror and disruption, without concomitant loss of territory or facilities of strategic value, that by itself does not merit a nuclear response. It is different if BM/Nuke production facilities are accurately targeted.

I believe the A-5 is also in the process of entering service at this stage. It should be conveyed to the other side that loss of Ladakh/large scale destruction of the armed forces' combat power , etc, constitute red lines that would lead to our throwing the kitchen sink at them: A-5's, A-3's and A-2's on as many cities as we can reach and devastate.

No matter what consequences we face thereafter, such a posture poses the following question to PRC: are you willing to lose Beijing, Shanghai and several other cities for grabbing Leh/teaching India a big lesson ? PRC's answer to this question will be `no'. Such a posture would impose serious constraints on the quantum of conventional force (intensity x time) that PRC can bring to bear upon us. There is no guarantee that they can win every limited conflict within these constraints. This has to be understood for us to take optimal advantage of our own capabilities.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ranjbe »

Very well put. The immense amount of pain ( Western sanctions,diversion of money when India could ill afford it, etc.) suffered while building up nuclear weapon stockpile and the triad of delivery systems was for a reason. I am sure that India's planners have set up red lines, and conveyed them to China. Some of the dhoti-shiver scenarios will never happen, because China's dream of being number 1 will go up in a puff of smoke if they cross certain lines. This was SOP between USSR and the USA.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by pandyan »

https://www.rediff.com/news/interview/l ... 200623.htm
"We are much closer to a bigger conflict now than we have ever been in the past," strategic affairs expert Sushant Sareen -- Senior Research Fellow at the Observer Research Foundation and author of Corridor Calculus: China-Pakistan Economic Corridor & China's comprador model of investment in Pakistan
What action of the Modi administration has rubbed China and Xi Jinping the wrong way? What explains the Chinese misadventures in Ladakh?

I don't think there's anything which the Modi government has done which has made the Chinese adopt such an aggressive attitude (towards India).
A lot of people talk about maps being issued, about the division of Jammu & Kashmir, making Ladakh a separate Union territory. But nobody has ever explained how all this changes the larger conflict between India and China.
Maps which were issued after the bifurcation of the erstwhile state of Jammu and Kashmir were the same maps issued earlier except for new internal demarcation.


India claims the whole of Aksai Chin -- where is the debate in that? That is precisely the issue of dispute between India and China.

So, clearly it (the Chinese moves in Eastern Ladakh) doesn't have anything to do with the stand-off. At best this is an excuse, not a cause for what's happening.

The second narrative is how India's border infrastructure development is riling the Chinese. Now, if indeed that is the case, then I'm afraid that is China's problem, and not India's.

Is India going to decide what it does on its side of the LAC on the basis of China's likes and dislikes, or to satisfy China?

Does China keep India's concerns and sensitivities in view when it does what it does on its side of the LAC?

What entitlement do Chinese have that India needs to be sensitive to their concern?

And what inferiority complex is there within the Indian mindspace that because the Chinese don't want us to do something that would rile them and so India should not do it even though India don't like what the Chinese are doing.


Why can't we have the same standard for both sides?

If the Chinese can build (road infrastructure for movement of military) up right up to the LAC, then why can't India build (road infrastructure for movement of military)?

Therefore, the argument that India's infrastructure development has provoked the Chinese is completely untenable and disingenuous.

The third argument, which I find the most plausible, is that the Chinese are nibbling into Indian territory because they are able to do it.

And they have been consistently doing it; taking it (Indian territories) in small bites so that it doesn't become a big issue and escalate into something bigger.

And, after a few years, the entire complexion of the LAC has changed, which is what has been happening. So somewhere along the line, you have to say this far and no further.

This is something that every farmer in India who tills or owns some land also understands. He knows that if he accepts encroachment from his neighbours the other guy will take him for a weakling and a pushover and keep grabbing his land.

So, at what point of time do you say this far and no further?

I think that time has now come (for India in the context of Chinese activities in eastern Ladakh).

If India doesn't draw the line now, the Chinese will be right in thinking that they can always intimidate India.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Raveen »

nam wrote:
Raveen wrote:
Russia hasn't been a superpower in a while
They are the second largest arms exporter. What ultimately matters.
Isreal exports plenty of arms as does France, superpowers?? :?:


Sorry just saw the mod post, please delete if OT
Last edited by Raveen on 24 Jun 2020 10:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Karan M »

Every time Rajnath Singh or anyone makes a quick flight abroad asking weapons and spares be supplied at short notice, it paints a picture of a country that is haphazardly run and is unprepared for sustained war beyond a Galwan or a smaller area. A proper war. It may not be the full truth but optics matter and the PRC may think we are weak enough to try their chances.

Sadly, 7 years in and while we are significantly ahead we are not yet at a place wherein we have proper dominance. Ammunition production by now should have been up and running in the pvt sector - yet not one, not one order has been placed. Multiple DRDO projects have cleared user trials - yet no orders have been placed. Because the GOI has no additional money for defence and won't raise the budget either. The Armed Forces run abroad for items related to their existing kit, or ask for gold-plated silver bullets which they hope will take on vastly superior numbers of opponent gear.

IAF is at a historic squadron low. Only 29-30 squadrons and approaching parity with PAF, numbers wise as they have 22 squadrons. The PLAAF can add another 15 squadrons to our theater without redeploying other squadrons from other regions. That's a 1.5x advantage.

Add the SRBMs, MRBMs, IRBMs - and our infra will be under severe threat.

The BMD system we did develop has not been put in place fully, per media reports. We are literally not doing anything to hold the Pak side at bay. 5 regiments of S-400 without additional radars are woefully inadequate for our overall BMD needs.

The much ballyhooed emergency orders only empty the Revenue Budget and sometimes Capex, and the AF modernization continues at a slow rate. OROP has stalled IA modernization and the CDS is busy eyeing the budgets of the IAF and IN and they are already aghast at his proposals.

Facts are these - we have chosen to reverse the MMS/UPA era "come kick me all you want" policies and hence war is anyday possible. But we don't seem to "get" the risks involved.

The amount spent on defence is at a historic low as a % of budget. We should at least consider some form of QE or whatever way to use our sovereign denominated debt to push for local orders. It will benefit industry and at least still modernize the military and build up our reserves.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... -trend.cms

CV has put GOI debt even further behind. I read someplace we are at 11 years back in terms of debt as % of GDP. Well tough, but losing a war isnt an option either. That will further worsen our economic condition.

Its either that, or swallow your pride and give up what PRC wants in "remote areas".

The next option is an alliance. Under this current US admin - it will be transactional, expensive (you get only what you pay for), and doing so at the current time, will smack of desperation and get you the worst possible deal.
Leonard
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Leonard »

Dr Shiv has done a very nice Youtube video on Galwan .. Sharing.

The PLA is IN a meat grinder position -- We really need to turn the screws ..

https://t.co/H9130JsDpF?amp=1

Also a Critical Map.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eaub6zwU8AM ... name=small

From the Map..

Our FIRST order of priority --

FLATTEN --> RUTOG

Flatten --> HOTAN

Flatten the --> NGARI airport

Sever the Connections between Galwan and Hot Springs and G219.

Interdict any air supply attempts ..

Let the Chinese Soldiers stay PUT after that with NO supplies in High Alpine Environment -- No need to use boots on the ground.

A couple of months EATING SNOW and HIGH ENERGY bars for Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner -- The soldier might just follow the story of the ANDES aircraft survivors and start Cannibalizing the fat CCP commissars ..
SidSoma
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by SidSoma »

Leonard wrote:
Let the Chinese Soldiers stay PUT after that with NO supplies in High Alpine Environment -- No need to use boots on the ground.

A couple of months EATING SNOW and HIGH ENERGY bars for Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner -- The soldier might just follow the story of the ANDES aircraft survivors and start Cannibalizing the fat CCP commissars ..
There is no way we will be able to hold off China for a few Months...... They are not that weak also. I agree we might be able to take them on and beat them but holding for a few months......
vimal
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by vimal »

This thread should be renamed coulda-shoulda-woulda thread.
Davidrock
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Davidrock »

From the tweet of detresfa, it appears that PLA has constructed some defensive positions at the site of clash, on our side of LAC.

https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/12 ... 96/photo/1

All this while Abhijit tells a story about surgical strike to dismantle rock dam, 650m across their side of LAC.

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/127 ... 03/photo/1
Last edited by Davidrock on 24 Jun 2020 10:46, edited 1 time in total.
Sonugn
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Sonugn »

Galwan clash: China talks peace but raises troop deployment by 30%
Indian patrols have traditionally patrolled here up to Patrolling Point (PP) 10, 11, 12, and 13. Now they are being stopped by the Chinese, who have built tracks bypassing these PPs and extending 15-17 kilometres (km) into Indian-claimed territory.

This includes advancing deeper into Indian territory at Jeevan Nullah (PP13) and ongoing attempts to cross the so-called bottleneck area on Raki Nullah (PP12).

In the Galwan Valley, the Chinese have established a camp about 1 km inside the Indian side (west) of the LAC near PP14, where the June 15 clash occurred
While Indian troops are patrolling close to PP14, Chinese patrols are visiting the heights along the Galwan River, especially those closer to the LAC.

Meanwhile, at PP15, which is 25 km south of PP14, the Chinese have entered about 2 km inside the Indian side of the LAC and have constructed two tracks on Indian-claimed territory, say sources.

While there is no Chinese ingress at PP16, the confrontation continues in the Hot Springs sector, which includes PP17 (called the Gogra Heights), PP18, and PP19 (called Kongka La).
Indian planners, therefore, face the worrisome prospect of a dual threat to northern Ladakh.
yensoy
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by yensoy »

^^^^ If we still don't control the heights overlooking the DSDBO road and Galwan nullah on our side of the LAC, then we have only ourselves to blame. Oh wait, it's Shooklaw, but he has been right in the past too...
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