India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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arshyam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by arshyam »

Larry Walker wrote:
arshyam wrote: Which important places in our mainland do you think they can capture?
Pls ignore the word important - even capturing an Indian village on the border will now trigger a confidence crisis because Modi went emotional and said that not one inch of our land will be lost to Chinese. Now with that very hard position, all capturing of G219 etc goes out of the window and now you got to focus all your might to defend. And in this day and age of OSINT satellite images, there is no hiding or obfuscation.
You mentioned two words: important, mainland. Okay, let's ignore important, and focus on mainland. Which place in the mainland can they be expected to capture? Please don't change the topic to what Modi said and all that, let's talk about what you said earlier.

The reason I reiterate is this, and others have said the same, it is not going to be cakewalk for the Chinese to even come more than 10km inside, let alone capture some "mainland" city. Heck, even Leh is a very tall order, if not impossible. This is not chest-thumping or hawa-baazi, even in the much forgotten '62 war the Chinese couldn't advance much in Ladakh. In Arunachal, yes they did, but it was also poorly defended with no means of supply. The contrast between our capabilities between then and now is like night and day, so let's give this a rest, please. However, if you still want to persist in this line of argument, then let's talk specifics - hence my repeated q above.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Davidrock »

Jarita wrote:
V_Raman wrote:India is nowhere close to even thinking about being a superpower. Honestly - all the govt wants is to be left alone to develop the country I think.
Thank you, yes. There are so many fundamentals to be fixed and the damage of the UPA years is not yet undone.
It does not make sense to blame UPA still. Last 6 years we have not allotted enough budget for defense.
We will only get the security we are willing to pay for.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Davidrock »

Well since now some land is taken in Pangong Tso, and specially 100m in Galwan, after PM said that 1 inch will not be given, I seriously think its a matter of time before India strikes.

It can happen anytime is my opinion, because PM has built a tough image, he cannot afford to lose it.
darshan
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by darshan »

There's some blame to take for Modi to not clean up the house and straighten things out. Deliberate sell outs are not that easy to clean. But to his defense, one man can be stretched thin only so much. He did loose few of his soldiers on the way: Parrikar, Swaraj, Jaitly
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by YashG »

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/12 ... 0790359040
Chinese troops back at Galwan's flashpoint, India mobilises & has the heights. Disengagement focused on pulling back from another escalation here. I bring you a full, no-nosense report + Ex-Army chief Gen Deepak Kapoor joins me live. Tune in @ 5pm @IndiaToday
Image
Image
4:27 PM · Jun 24, 2020
Okay so Chinese are back at PP14! This is what I understand form this. What was the point of then removing thr tents form this point, losing 20 men - if we allow them to be back here.

I'm upset. I wonder if this is what China bargained us for 10 men return. And all along I was of the opinion that atleast PP14 is safe.
Last edited by YashG on 24 Jun 2020 18:10, edited 1 time in total.
ks_sachin
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ks_sachin »

pankajs wrote:I had mentioned this in one of the posts ...

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... CtPOI.html
India deploys specialised mountain forces to check China’s LAC transgressions

The Modi government is very unhappy that the Chinese President Xi Jinping broke all the promises by not reining his favourite PLA western theatre commander Gen Zhao Zongqi, people aware of the development said.
India has deployed its specialised high altitude warfare forces along the 3,488 km Line of Actual Control (LAC) to repel any transgression by the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in either western, middle or eastern sectors.

Top government sources confirmed that Indian Army has been directed to safeguard the LAC from any cross-border aggression by the PLA, which is showing hostile intent by amassing troops in a bid to cow down the Narendra Modi government.

It is understood that specialised forces trained over the past decades for fighting on the northern front have been pushed up to the frontier to impose military costs if the red flag goes up. Unlike the PLA which moves in infantry combat vehicles and paved metalled roads to move, the Indian mountain troops are trained in guerrilla warfare and fighting in high altitude as shown by them in Kargil War.
GOI is signalling that it too will cross the LAC at the time and place of its choosing if this does not dial down soon. Counter action. "All along the LAC" is a hide the actual deployment.

My guess is that plan for forceful eviction from Pangong Tso is "also" in works.
“The art of mountain fighting is the toughest as the cost of human casualties is 10 to each troop of the adversary sitting on a height. The troops from Uttarakhand, Ladakh, Gorkha, Arunachal and Sikkim have adapted to the rarefied heights over centuries and hence their capability of fighting is close quarter combats is without match. The artillery and the missiles have to have pin-pointed accuracy or else they miss the mountain target by miles,” said a former Indian Army chief.
Also to some earlier query raised on this forum ...

Arty and missiles need to have pin-point accuracy else they are not effective in the mountains. Missing by 10 feets can mean the difference between landing on one side of a divide v/s on the other side.
“I have my battalions lined up with armoured personnel carriers and artillery. India will not instigate or precipitate any skirmish but will reply to any transgression. The days of LAC nibbling are over. This is a battle of nerves and India is prepared to wait, come snow come sunshine,” said a senior minister.
Fighting talk ..
What are these specialised mountain warfare troops?
A pointless article devoid of any facts....
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by YashG »

Davidrock wrote:Well since now some land is taken in Pangong Tso, and specially 100m in Galwan, after PM said that 1 inch will not be given, I seriously think its a matter of time before India strikes.

It can happen anytime is my opinion, because PM has built a tough image, he cannot afford to lose it.
Exactly. I'm at loss of words over what to say here.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ks_sachin »

Davidrock wrote:Well since now some land is taken in Pangong Tso, and specially 100m in Galwan, after PM said that 1 inch will not be given, I seriously think its a matter of time before India strikes.

It can happen anytime is my opinion, because PM has built a tough image, he cannot afford to lose it.
What land is taken? Have they overrun our positions?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by YashG »

ks_sachin wrote:
Davidrock wrote:Well since now some land is taken in Pangong Tso, and specially 100m in Galwan, after PM said that 1 inch will not be given, I seriously think its a matter of time before India strikes.

It can happen anytime is my opinion, because PM has built a tough image, he cannot afford to lose it.
What land is taken? Have they overrun our positions?
Apparently - the place for which we fought and lost 20 men for is retaken.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Aditya_V »

Might be NDTV, but satellite pics show that the Chinese are upto something

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/chinese ... -topscroll
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Philip »

Even as Times Now claim the Chins retreated IT's latest sat pics show a massive buildup both at Galwan and other areas near DBO, Depsang with increased numbers of tanks,arty., AVs and othrer war material. From this,it appears that the so- called disengagement agreement announced a few days ago was nothing but a pause to allow the Chinese to regroup and reinforce their positions,while scaling up their forces elsewhere.

From the combined picture it appears that the DBO airstrip is the target which the Chins plan to neutralise or capture using a multi- pronged attack,with some diversionary simultaneous thrusts elsewhere to keep us guessing. We are in for the long haul,as they poke and probe in their accustomed predatory fashion.

As we have done with the Pakis,stiff economic and diplomatic punishment needs to be added to the military mauling they recd. at Galwan.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Davidrock »

YashG wrote:https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/12 ... 0790359040
Chinese troops back at Galwan's flashpoint, India mobilises & has the heights. Disengagement focused on pulling back from another escalation here. I bring you a full, no-nosense report + Ex-Army chief Gen Deepak Kapoor joins me live. Tune in @ 5pm @IndiaToday
Image
Image
4:27 PM · Jun 24, 2020
Okay so Chinese are back at PP14! This is what I understand form this. What was the point of then removing thr tents form this point, losing 20 men - if we allow them to be back here.

I'm upset. I wonder if this is what China bargained us for 10 men return. And all along I was of the opinion that atleast PP14 is safe.
Same feeling here, unable to see that 100m being occupied by PLA after we sacrificed 20 precious lives.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by darshan »

One thing that will always remain true is that chinese would always be up to something. It's for Indians to come to consensus on what's the threshold for India to do something about it.

Sun Tzu does say to keep dancing till there's an opportunity to exploit by means of back stabbing.

It would be utterly foolish of anyone to trust chinese backstabbers even if they pull back to Beijing. I'll be in state of paranoia and keep working to build up local MIC.

May be Modi needs to crowd source and go listen through various viewpoints after this to not have his mind clouded by perennial fixtures.
Last edited by darshan on 24 Jun 2020 18:19, edited 1 time in total.
Iyersan
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Iyersan »

Aditya_V wrote:Might be NDTV, but satellite pics show that the Chinese are upto something

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/chinese ... -topscroll
Although Modi is the best alternative we have today. I am now believing the theory that Biharis crossed LAC to destroy a structure/ dam altering water flow. The deadly battle might have been caused by curtailing water flow.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Davidrock »

ks_sachin wrote:
Davidrock wrote:Well since now some land is taken in Pangong Tso, and specially 100m in Galwan, after PM said that 1 inch will not be given, I seriously think its a matter of time before India strikes.

It can happen anytime is my opinion, because PM has built a tough image, he cannot afford to lose it.
What land is taken? Have they overrun our positions?
The approx 100m land in pp14 is clearly in PLA hands as per satellite pics.
But good news from Shiv Aroor is that we have taken the heights.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Davidrock »

I made another observation, the LAC is just 1 km away from DS-DBO road, at the point near Qizil Langar.

If there is one strategic location they are in a good position to attack, its DBO runway. But I am sure IA is ready for the game.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Daula ... 77.9239961
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by YashG »

The peaceniks in Delhi are misreading China. We're not up against a rational country, we're up against a 'nazi'esque megalomanaic who is about to push the world into dangerous times.
If we're thinking we will get away without an escalation, we're so very misguided. By now I'm sure, we've to choose between our H&D/Reputation or escalation. I'm tired of peaceniks in Delhi talking about talks, de-escalation and what not dovish thoughts. I wud agree with them but it just wont work.

Image
Last edited by YashG on 24 Jun 2020 19:08, edited 1 time in total.
Prem Kumar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Prem Kumar »

What's exceedingly clear is that the "disengagement talks" are a ploy to reinforce. Just like Muhammad's Hudaybiyyah peace treaty that Yasser Arafat compared the Oslo Accords to.

Either Modi has to accept that they've encroached, take political flak & evict them by force. Or remain silent, maintain H&D and cede territory.

Hope we finetune our attack plans. This is not going to end peacefully.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by YashG »

Davidrock wrote:I made another observation, the LAC is just 1 km away from DS-DBO road, at the point near Qizil Langar.

If there is one strategic location they are in a good position to attack, its DBO runway. But I am sure IA is ready for the game.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Daula ... 77.9239961
DS-DBO road is close, opportune for cutoff. But attacking DBO runway? DId u mean road or runway. Runway is faroff.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ks_sachin »

YashG wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: What land is taken? Have they overrun our positions?
Apparently - the place for which we fought and lost 20 men for is retaken.
Oh. So we had occupied PP14 previously?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ks_sachin »

Davidrock wrote:I made another observation, the LAC is just 1 km away from DS-DBO road, at the point near Qizil Langar.

If there is one strategic location they are in a good position to attack, its DBO runway. But I am sure IA is ready for the game.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Daula ... 77.9239961
How will they attack?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by darshan »

Arunachal CM Pema Khandu Refers To LAC As Indo-Tibet Border Amid India-China Face Off In Ladakh
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/arunachal ... -in-ladakh
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by SaiK »

Tashi Chhepal, a retired Indian army captain who has served in the area and is based in Leh, said the mobilisation was unprecedented in a sensitive region touching Pakistan as well as China. "I haven't seen this kind of military movement before," he told AFP.
If true, I'd not waste my time and money going forward! CoK, PoK et al per agreed parliament passed maps to real map, ASAP.

move it! Let's see how they will hold.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Prem Kumar »

ks_sachin: the place where we took down their tent & where we lost 20 men is a "disputed territory". No tents allowed there, per the Maj Gen level agreement. So, I'm not sure if we would call it "our territory", but if the tents have come back, then its a clear breach of agreement. Twice in 2 weeks!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by YashG »

Prem Kumar wrote:
Either Modi has to accept that they've encroached, take political flak & evict them by force. Or remain silent, maintain H&D and cede territory.

Hope we finetune our attack plans. This is not going to end peacefully.
Yes Modi is in a tough position. Its between a rock and a hard place. But Modi has been known to take radical, tough decisions - he might have already figured a few. If he comes on top of this, he will become one of the tallest leaders of free world. Rewards/Risk are enormous here. But its an unprecedented situation, no easy answers.

But everyone is now coming around to the point that - this will not end peacefully. ( except ofcourse peaceniks, uber intellectuals and 'i want to keep my moolah' babus in Delhi.)
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by aditp »

Deans wrote:
darshan wrote:
I'm wondering if the cold climate version of Arjun could have been of a use here. Could it have been a lighter version?
The C-17 is capable of lifting the Arjun (with several tonnes to spare). The cold climate (actually high altitude) version is really a special grade of fuel and lubricant, which we have figured out after years of trial and error. My view is that airlifting is more to send a signal. Tanks can currently be transported via the Jammu-Srinagar-Leh highway or via Himachal, across the Rohtang pass.
The Arjun uses the MTU-838Ka501 diesel engine, same as used in the Leopard-1 (not 2). Ofcourse, the engine would have been designed to fight on the Alps in winter time. Fuel formulation should be readily available with the Germans and the GoI could easily obtain it.Most probably the engine ECU would be able to compensate for any calibration issues. Ofcourse this is all contingent to the Army fielding the Arjun in Leh/Laddakh, something many of us really wish but mostly wont materialise. :|
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by YashG »

ks_sachin wrote:
YashG wrote:
Apparently - the place for which we fought and lost 20 men for is retaken.
Oh. So we had occupied PP14 previously?
Chinese had not. Now they do! Atleast thats what the whole bloodshed was for. Removing Chinese from PP14. Even I took some solace that we burnt down their tent from PP14 atleast.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by NRao »

darshan wrote:Arunachal CM Pema Khandu Refers To LAC As Indo-Tibet Border Amid India-China Face Off In Ladakh
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/arunachal ... -in-ladakh
Excellent!!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ks_sachin »

Prem Kumar wrote:ks_sachin: the place where we took down their tent & where we lost 20 men is a "disputed territory". No tents allowed there, per the Maj Gen level agreement. So, I'm not sure if we would call it "our territory", but if the tents have come back, then its a clear breach of agreement. Twice in 2 weeks!
I know. I just wanted to see if the newbies realise the nuances in the words they use.
Statements galore without an iota of knowledge about the terrain. Not that I have stayed there but have seen similar very close up and right now an area of family interest..
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by YashG »

Prem Kumar wrote:ks_sachin: the place where we took down their tent & where we lost 20 men is a "disputed territory". No tents allowed there, per the Maj Gen level agreement. So, I'm not sure if we would call it "our territory", but if the tents have come back, then its a clear breach of agreement. Twice in 2 weeks!
Exactly! Not just tent but also boundaries, vehicles and a GUN position.

Image
Last edited by YashG on 24 Jun 2020 19:04, edited 1 time in total.
nam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by nam »

What i hope is GoI has sounded out the private sector to pool the resources towards building up some of the domestic kit: 155MM, MRSAM, Astra, AAD MBRL and ammo.

155MM: BF/Tata
MRSAM: Tata, may some from Israel.
AAD: BDL only? sigh...
Pinaka rockets: L&T?
Ammo: BF & there was another one.
Electronics: Astra etc..
Astra BVR: VEM?

If Indian industries want to show they can scale up.. this is the time. The nation needs them.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by pankajs »

ks_sachin wrote:
pankajs wrote:I had mentioned this in one of the posts ...

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... CtPOI.html
India deploys specialised mountain forces to check China’s LAC transgressions

The Modi government is very unhappy that the Chinese President Xi Jinping broke all the promises by not reining his favourite PLA western theatre commander Gen Zhao Zongqi, people aware of the development said.
GOI is signalling that it too will cross the LAC at the time and place of its choosing if this does not dial down soon. Counter action. "All along the LAC" is a hide the actual deployment.

My guess is that plan for forceful eviction from Pangong Tso is "also" in works.
Also to some earlier query raised on this forum ...

Arty and missiles need to have pin-point accuracy else they are not effective in the mountains. Missing by 10 feets can mean the difference between landing on one side of a divide v/s on the other side.

Fighting talk ..
What are these specialised mountain warfare troops?
A pointless article devoid of any facts....
One does not discuss facts about deployment or Mountain division. Enemy would be tuned in to all channels in India.

This is just to convey the resolve in Delhi without having to pick up the phone and speak to the Chinese just as the Chinese are showing their resolve by continuing with their activities on LAC and digging in further.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by pankajs »

YashG wrote:https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/12 ... 0790359040
Chinese troops back at Galwan's flashpoint, India mobilises & has the heights. Disengagement focused on pulling back from another escalation here. I bring you a full, no-nosense report + Ex-Army chief Gen Deepak Kapoor joins me live. Tune in @ 5pm @IndiaToday
Image
Image
4:27 PM · Jun 24, 2020
Okay so Chinese are back at PP14! This is what I understand form this. What was the point of then removing thr tents form this point, losing 20 men - if we allow them to be back here.

I'm upset. I wonder if this is what China bargained us for 10 men return. And all along I was of the opinion that atleast PP14 is safe.
My question to GOI/IA would be slightly different .. IF IA has cleaned up the mess at LAC it should have setup its own monitoring post there, after all it is within Indian claim line and the Chinese already has made a play for it.

Why did we pull back after the 15-16 fracus and bloodshed?

OTOH, with GOI/IA mostly silent, thinking out loud, it "might" be an Indian post instead of the Chinese. Difficult to know judge just from a satellite image that is definitely Chinese.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Larry Walker »

Latest reports on NewX saying Chinese troubling Indian patrols in DBO area and Chinese artillery movement detected.
Last edited by Larry Walker on 24 Jun 2020 19:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by p_ram »

RaviB wrote:
human_sounding wrote:
This operation is much bigger than the traditional salami pizza, which had a fixed template. It's also clear that this time they were looking to provoke India. The Jinan Eagle scouts were brought in to kill Indian soldiers and start a conflict if India fought back.

The timeline suggests that this was planned post Doklam. This is a test run for preparing their soldiers for battle against an adversary they expect to be easily overwhelmed. Why are they doing it? Because they can. Because the world is distracted by CV. This is a bonus. Initially they timed it for the US election. Normally this would have been peak election season for the US. Trump wouldn't have gotten involved in any India-China fight because of that. They think India is a junior ally of the US, so they would be indirectly teaching the US a lesson as well.

The Generals want to try out their toys, their EW, their integrated battle fighting (that's what the WTC was created for). And to scare India out of the US-China equation for the next 30 years. They want to be numbah one by 2050 at the latest. This would all fit.
Thanks RaviBji _/\_
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by srin »

We need to open another front from legal and diplomatic perspective.
It is time we reiterate our claim to Shaksgam valley and inform Chinese that we'll start routine patrols there. If the Chinese are worried about the G219 now, they will hit the roof if we do this.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by pankajs »

Davidrock wrote:I made another observation, the LAC is just 1 km away from DS-DBO road, at the point near Qizil Langar.

If there is one strategic location they are in a good position to attack, its DBO runway. But I am sure IA is ready for the game.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Daula ... 77.9239961
DBO Runway was never a threat to the Chinese ... A good mobile SAM deployed behind the Chinese line would have cut that off double quick.

The target always remains India's position on the DBO/Depsang plain. The DSDBO road is a threat that the DBO runway never was because just a SAM would never suffice to cut it off.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Larry Walker »

NewsX is using diplomatic language - but my interpretation is that Chinese have started some sort of offensive around Karakorum pass area.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by KL Dubey »

While we wait for the "disengagement" process (if any) to happen, a couple of questions (sorry if I am being stupid):

1) The PP14 spot in which the Chinese have put up squatter structures is basically the Galwan river bed, right ? Aren't these rivers usually flooded with water during the monsoon ? There would be no chance of having any permanent structure there, correct ? And therefore, does this indicate the intent of the Chinese to quickly surge troops on the river bed from this point and capture the DBO road about 2 miles to the west ?

2) Moving through the river bed seems to be a stupid proposition that will result in nothing but bodies of Chinese piling up really fast. So is there any other feasible attack plan that the Chinese are thinking of? Is this going to be in concert with another attack further north ?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ks_sachin »

pankajs wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: What are these specialised mountain warfare troops?
A pointless article devoid of any facts....
One does not discuss facts about deployment or Mountain division. Enemy would be tuned in to all channels in India.

This is just to convey the resolve in Delhi without having to pick up the phone and speak to the Chinese just as the Chinese are showing their resolve by continuing with their activities on LAC and digging in further.
Mate I am not a newbie here. Where our MTN divs are is no secret. If you actually want their respective AORs that is on RohitVats site. The Chinese definitely know as they face each other.
I am just amazed at the drivel some of our newer members have taken to quote here on BRF..
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