Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (15-11-2017)

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Jul 2020 18:09

chetak wrote:
SSridhar wrote:The immediate signalling that India can do is to include the RAN in the upcoming Ex. Malabar.
the aussies come with their own long entrenched anti India mindset as well as a deeply ingrained racist bias.

These issues need to be sorted out quickly before we let in such "europeans".

The cheeni are deeply entrenched in the body politic of australia as well as in the business and academia.

data security would definitely be a worrying problem.

make haste certainly but do it slowly and thoroughly.

There is no country without flaws. Of course, we have had issues with the Aussies before, starting with a certain Maj. Gen. Walter Joseph Cawthorne establishing the ISI way back in 1948. Recently, the developments after the 2007 five-nation maritime exercise soured our relationship and the suspicion with which the Aussies looked at IN's expansion and buzzing our maritime assets in IOR are all there. Then, there was the Scorpene leak as well, no doubt. There is no one, not even the British, who have beaten us down and encouraged Pakistan (except China) against us than the USA. Even today, the USA is most unreliable. So, we can't take such arguments too far. We have already signed strategic agreements with the Aussies such as nuclear fuel supply and LEMOA-like agreement. India-Japan-Australia Foreign Secretaries have been meeting trilaterally since 2012. We have just recently elevated our relationship to 'Comprehensive Strategic Partnership'. Whether we like it or not, RAN would be part of Ex. Malabar by next year because it has been on the cards for quite some time and the Americans & the Japanese have been demanding that too. The 10-year extension of the Defence Framework Agreement Modi & Obama signed in 2015 specifically included Australia in joint exercises. So, why not now itself and send a strong signal about the Quad? The Quad is certainly there and now India has shed all ambiguity about that.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Jul 2020 18:10

KL Dubey · Post by **KL Dubey** » 03 Jul 2020 18:49

Bans and import substitution gaining momentum.

Now power ministry bans equipment import from China:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... s?from=mdr

Just da beginnin' :

https://thediplomat.com/2020/07/indias- ... beginning/

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 03 Jul 2020 19:48

#ChinaBlocksWION: Readers stand in solidarity with us
https://www.wionews.com/india-news/chin ... -us-310490
GreatFire.org, a Chinese internet monitoring watchdog, confirmed that WION has been completely blocked in China.

WION has been ill-famous in China because of its highly critical coverage of Beijing's cover-up of coronavirus outbreak. The move is being seen as a retaliation against India's action banning Chinese apps.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 03 Jul 2020 19:58

#INCCCPMoU

No one better to appoint as a PM to bring down India than an experienced FM who's congressi and subservient to Sonia.

How Power Sector Liberalisation in 2009 led to a Chinese monopoly, Rs 3 Trillion NPAs and crippled domestic manufacturing
https://www.opindia.com/2020/07/power-s ... facturing/

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 03 Jul 2020 20:16

darshan wrote:#ChinaBlocksWION: Readers stand in solidarity with us
https://www.wionews.com/india-news/chin ... -us-310490
GreatFire.org, a Chinese internet monitoring watchdog, confirmed that WION has been completely blocked in China.

WION has been ill-famous in China because of its highly critical coverage of Beijing's cover-up of coronavirus outbreak. The move is being seen as a retaliation against India's action banning Chinese apps.

Way to go, WION. #BadgeOfHonour

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Jul 2020 20:21

someone is upset that Modi is not following the cheeni playbook

ANI@ANI · 6h
India & China are in communication and negotiations on lowering the temperatures through military & diplomatic channels. No party should engage in any action that may escalate the situation at this point:Zhao Lijian, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson on PM Modi's Ladakh visit

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Jul 2020 20:53

Oh, the Wolf Warrior of the Foreign Office?

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 03 Jul 2020 23:08

As though they didn't have enough problems...

Now, Russia faces China's ire over Vladivostok founding day celebrations - WION

Russia and China got into a diplomatic spat after the Russian embassy officials posted a video on China's Weibo of a party to celebrate the 160th anniversary of the founding of Vladivostok.

Chinese officials including Internet users leapt on the video and slammed Russia asserting that Vladivostok used to be part of China which was apparently Qing’s Manchurian homeland but was annexed during the Tsar era in 1860 after China's defeat in the second opium war. <snip>

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Jul 2020 23:21

A lot of news has come out since Galwan making it look as a trigger but the truth is that such things usually are in works long before.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Intern ... lia-and-UK
Japan deepens intelligence sharing with India, Australia and UK

The expansion came in last month's revision of standards for the legislation, which already covers Washington, Tokyo's closest ally. The law -- enacted in 2014 amid controversy -- sets penalties of up to 10 years in prison for leaking secrets deemed to risk "causing severe damage to Japan's national security," covering areas such as defense, diplomacy and counterterrorism.

Classifying information from a foreign military as a state secret will facilitate joint exercises and tie-ups for developing equipment. It also becomes easier to share data on Chinese troop movements, an increasingly crucial issue as it has grown harder for Tokyo to track Beijing's activities in the region on its own.

<snip>

The tie-ups also include joint development of defense equipment, which often requires sharing powerful and classified technology. Japan and the U.K. have created a prototype air-to-air missile, and Tokyo is teaming with Paris on technology to detect underwater mines using unmanned craft.

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 04 Jul 2020 19:39

piskology hat on...

Generally speaking, Chinese shopkeepers are known to fight with their customers. It is the attitude that says I am providing the thing that you need and you should be eternally grateful to me for that. It is the same with the Chinese leadership as well. This attitude is an offshoot of the socialist/communist model where the benevolent state is bestowing upon the needy citizens a favor by providing them the goods they need, want, desire. (See the smug self-appreciative look on Eleven Dingaling's face to understand this clearly.)

After having become the manufacturing hub of the world, Chin feels that they are doing the world a favor through their great Communist system, except that it is the global free market economy that paid them for their goods and the customers will move to other vendors if they continue to disgruntle them.

The world is just learning its lesson having made a manufacturing monopoly out of China. Corrective actions will be taken and China will be put in its place.

Fact of the matter is that communism is irrelevant outside of their country and they cannot continue to have a mercantilist policy with other nations while pretending to be communist. That is a contradiction in terms.

Internally as well, when the shit hits the fan because of global economic reaction, CCP centralised control will be unable to handle the socioeconomic chaos that will follow and their current system will collapse.

CCP's days are numbered for sure.

I am predicting that Li Keqiang will oust Xi and offer a mea culpa and a perestroika with Chinese characteristics. That will be the beginning of the end of the CCP.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Jul 2020 21:58

rajpa wrote: . . . It is the attitude that says I am providing the thing that you need and you should be eternally grateful to me for that. It is the same with the Chinese leadership as well. This attitude is an offshoot of the socialist/communist model where the benevolent state is bestowing upon the needy citizens a favor by providing them the goods they need, want, desire. (See the smug self-appreciative look on Eleven Dingaling's face to understand this clearly.) . . .

rajpa, that attitude comes from the mandate from the Heaven. For 3000 years, the Emperors of the Yellow River people (except possibly when the Mongols ruled for two centuries) told their vassals that harmonious relationship would help everyone grow, of course the Hans much more than the others because the Hans are at the apex of the hierarchy and that's axiomatic and unquestionable. That was the Confucian thought of 'filial piety' etc. all the way up to the Emperor.

Yes, you are right about the smugness of Xi and that directly flows from what he thinks are the successes of his policy to achieve the special 'harmony'.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 04 Jul 2020 23:46

^^^ it seems to me logical that the ancient Chinese Indophile who travelled to India held India, Buddhism and her culture in very high esteem.
India was not a bordering state and historically never was considered a vassal - is there anything to suggest this vassal relationship existed:
For example in China - Chola interactions?
Has there been a study of any conflict internally in China between Confucian ‘filial piety’ and near worship of India in ancient times?

It is also very likely that this worship ended with Tibet’s independence - what role has not having a Tibetan border played in downgrading of Chinese awe of all things India? Also what impact did the British conquest of India have on hastening Chinese disillusionment if not contempt of all things Indian?
Finally, was this harmonious filial piety ever real outside the internal warring states in China?
Seems like a this narrative is an attempt to cope with centuries of humiliation with a
post-modernist invention of Pax Americana with Chinese characteristics and Confucian! (pun intended).

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 05 Jul 2020 00:16

Pulikeshi wrote:^^^ it seems to me logical that the ancient Chinese Indophile who travelled to India held India, Buddhism and her culture in very high esteem.

Maybe so, but India is no longer Buddhist. If you read Fa Hian, the attitude towards Hindus was one of overwhelming condescension and pity. Hsuan Tsang was somewhat better, but the same attitude shows. Hsuan Tsang extensively describes Buddhist legends and stories from India, collected Buddhist relics and statues, visited Buddhist sites. He talks about Hindus, but in very superficial terms, nothing about their beliefs, numbers, or legends. It's like he simply wasn't interested, the Hindus were simply regarded as laggards in the adoption of the one true religion, Buddhism. This accusation of a certain "patriarchy" in India isn't new, both Fa Hian and Hsuan Tsang identified the true custodians of the Hindu way, and subjected them to much bile and vitriol. Methinks the modern Chinese attitude towards India is simply a continuation of that.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 05 Jul 2020 00:54

sudarshan wrote:
Pulikeshi wrote:^^^ it seems to me logical that the ancient Chinese Indophile who travelled to India held India, Buddhism and her culture in very high esteem.
Maybe so, but India is no longer Buddhist. If you read Fa Hian, the attitude towards Hindus was one of overwhelming condescension and pity. Hsuan Tsang was somewhat better, but the same attitude shows. Hsuan Tsang extensively describes Buddhist legends and stories from India, collected Buddhist relics and statues, visited Buddhist sites. He talks about Hindus, but in very superficial terms, nothing about their beliefs, numbers, or legends. It's like he simply wasn't interested, the Hindus were simply regarded as laggards in the adoption of the one true religion, Buddhism. This accusation of a certain "patriarchy" in India isn't new, both Fa Hian and Hsuan Tsang identified the true custodians of the Hindu way, and subjected them to much bile and vitriol. Methinks the modern Chinese attitude towards India is simply a continuation of that.

You are right about the religious chauvinism exhibited. Indian Buddhists exhibited the same attitude so not surprising the Chinese copied..
But my questions are on state policy... Based on Confucian or otherwise... Has China treated India (chola for ex) historically as a vassal state?

Indian scholarship seems to be regurgitating Western scholarship rather than look deeper into some of the questions I’ve raised...
What the Chinese are doing now seems more like a post colonial “opium” hangover!

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Jul 2020 01:54

This is great news of true!

https://twitter.com/LevinaNeythiri/stat ... 1539763213

Levina @LevinaNeythiri

India is finally ready with a FISH-HOOK (sound surveillance sensors chain) to track Chinese ships & submarines.
Since 2015 India ws fortifying not jst its LAND borders bt also SEA borders.
Thanks Manohar Parikkar Sir!

Article by me & @Maddy2105
https://resonantnews.com/2020/07/03/ind ... -partners/

Yesterday’s news that JAPAN hs decided to share intel with India, shld b read in above context. India’s 1st tri service mil command in ANDAMAN NICOBAR is part of under sea surveillance sys, and now v don’t hv to fear encirclement by “string of pearls” Chinese strategy.

This is a proof that Modi govt is far-sighted. India partnered with Japan and US to counter maritime issues it might face frm China. Any aggressiveness by India’s neighbours on LAND, will hv repercussions in the sea. Modi ji did assure us— Yeh naya Bharat Hai!!!

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 05 Jul 2020 03:41

chetak wrote:someone is upset that Modi is not following the cheeni playbook

ANI@ANI · 6h
India & China are in communication and negotiations on lowering the temperatures through military & diplomatic channels. No party should engage in any action that may escalate the situation at this point:Zhao Lijian, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson on PM Modi's Ladakh visit

Well, he never named them, just mentioned expansionists and they promptly put up their hand and identified themselves as the expansionist state.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 05 Jul 2020 08:59

File under “this is going to be the costliest war they ever fought”:
TikTok estimates $6 billion losses due to India ban

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Jul 2020 10:10

Suraj wrote:File under “this is going to be the costliest war they ever fought”:
TikTok estimates $6 billion losses due to India ban

these are just the financial losses.

The ban on the chinese apps is just like the tip of the iceberg and much of it is not immediately obvious.

The savage punch to the han solar plexus comes from their now much reduced data gathering capability and consequently, the slowing ability to make and tailor AI algorithms and the impact on their ongoing AI research, a field in which they are among the top contenders.

The loss of potentiality in their ability to swing, influence and sometimes control social media trends and opinions through their apps is bound to hit them very hard.

They are among the first movers in the hybrid warfare as a military strategy space with acknowledged expertise in cyberwarfare, along with other influencing methods, such as fake news, diplomacy, lawfare, foreign electoral intervention and fully intending to dominate the emerging global digital terrorism arena.

A similar ban on chinese apps by the EU, UK, russia, US and others will be a major setback to their grandiose plans to dominate the digital and the internet based AI ecosystem.

Data is actually the new oil and India alone generates a stupendous amount of data every single day. Under Modi, India has for the first time become data aware and is insisting on preventing the cross border movement of Indian data much to the dismay and vehement objections of well funded foreign players who are apprehensive of data laws being enacted in India that will mandate the local handling, as well as the storage of Indian, generated data.

the slowly gathering consensus to ban huawei and ZTE from the 5G space of major industrialized countries is another major worry for the CCP.

The likely combination of the apps ban and the 5G ban is a black swan event that the hans did not factor in.

Their aggressive and bullying ways have virtually got them whatever they wanted so far and hubris, their ingrained civilizational character flaw, will put paid to their global ambitions in the medium to long term if the multi country "ban" momentum crystalizes, is well coordinated, and quickly consolidated.

The natsec implications in terms of big data security and china’s insistence on only one way data flow that makes for forcible and slyly masked encroachments into other societies while the same reciprocal data access is actively denied to the target countries make it mandatory for India to shut down such unwarranted and unacceptable liberties taken without legal leave or license.

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 05 Jul 2020 11:00

an embargo on the sale of latest GPUs to China will put an end to their AI wet dreams..

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 05 Jul 2020 11:30

SSridhar wrote:
rajpa wrote: . . . It is the attitude that says I am providing the thing that you need and you should be eternally grateful to me for that. It is the same with the Chinese leadership as well. This attitude is an offshoot of the socialist/communist model where the benevolent state is bestowing upon the needy citizens a favor by providing them the goods they need, want, desire. (See the smug self-appreciative look on Eleven Dingaling's face to understand this clearly.) . . .
rajpa, that attitude comes from the mandate from the Heaven. For 3000 years, the Emperors of the Yellow River people (except possibly when the Mongols ruled for two centuries) told their vassals that harmonious relationship would help everyone grow, of course the Hans much more than the others because the Hans are at the apex of the hierarchy and that's axiomatic and unquestionable. That was the Confucian thought of 'filial piety' etc. all the way up to the Emperor.

Yes, you are right about the smugness of Xi and that directly flows from what he thinks are the successes of his policy to achieve the special 'harmony'.

Communism with Chinese Characteristics is in reality nothing but wet dreams of Qing Empire Revisited. Xi, the Royal Smugness is just a power hungry politician constantly seeking to consolidate his position to be emperor for life.

With that being the case, Xi is still not anointed as sole Emperor, and the CCP still has some notions of collective decision making.. this in itself will be a strong check to the powers of Xi. He would have to do extensive maneuvering within the party to keep his position intact, given that there is worldwide condemnation of Chinese bungling of relationships with everyone. Xi's hold over power is quite suspect and it seems reasonable to expect a coup with Chinese characteristics.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Jul 2020 13:18

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 Jul 2020 13:35

rajpa wrote:Xi's hold over power is quite suspect and it seems reasonable to expect a coup with Chinese characteristics.

After making Li Keqiang as the Head for tackling the Corona epidemic on January 26, Xi disappeared for almost three weeks. There were many speculations then such as he was ensuring his protection from infection etc. The last time he made such a Houdini act was in early 2013 when he was furiously demanding the Politburo to announce him as General Secretary of CCP, CMC and President, all rolled into one.

If we look at the Politburo Standing Committee (PSC) that was reconstituted in 2017, Li Keqiang must certainly hold some grudge against Xi who has systematically taken away all power from the Prime Minister. Xi has taken over more decision-making roles through the formation of high-level steering committees than at any time before. Even Mao didn't do that. He stepped down as President in 1959. Besides, the tussle for the top post in c. 2012 was between Xi Jinping and Li Keqiang and the former won.

Then, there is also the Shanghai Faction which owes allegiance to Jiang Zemin. Xi has taken anti-corruption action against very top Jiang proteges. The current PSC includes one from the Shanghai Faction, Han Zheng (First Vice Premier).

Then, there are a couple of them associated with the Communist Youth League (CYL). Xi Jinping has taken great efforts to reduce the influence of the Communist Youth League by reducing their budget etc. Hu Jinato, Xi's predecessor, was a big supporter of CYL. But, Xi still had to accommodate two members of the CYL/Hu Jintao clique in the current PSC. They are Li Keqiang himself and Wang Yang who is Chairman of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (which is similar to our Rajya Sabha).

So, all in all, in the 7-member PSC, there are potentially three who can question Xi provided they are willing to pay the price in the worst case.

What we forget is that even Mao faced resistance. Gen. Lin Biao and Liu Shaoqui, two powerful personalities. Gen. Lin Biao had to be eliminated through a plane crash in remote Inner Mongolia before Mao/Zhou could engage with the Americans in 1971-72. Liu Shaoqui was also killed by Mao for being a trenchant critic of the Cultural Revolution. Deng Xiaoping was associated with Liu Shaoqui and he somehow escaped. So, Xi cannot remain 'smug' that there won't be problem for his seat.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 05 Jul 2020 13:46

Deng was protected by Zhou Enlai , from what I recall. He had friends in high places who kept him alive through what would otherwise have been a death sentence during the Cultural Revolution era.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 Jul 2020 13:58

Suraj wrote:Deng was protected by Zhou Enlai , from what I recall. He had friends in high places who kept him alive through what would otherwise have been a death sentence during the Cultural Revolution era.

Could be, we don't know for certain. But, he was banished during that period. Only when succession talks resurfaced, Zhou-en-Lai brought back Deng from banishment.

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 05 Jul 2020 14:59

What I find weird is that Jiang Zemin still appears in official functions.. there is a video of him carried by two guards to attend one.. wonder what kind of power he has over the CCP and Xi. Also Hu Jintao has completely vanished from the stage as well. Certainly lots happening behind the scenes we don't hear about.

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 05 Jul 2020 15:22

Xi vs Li

Apparently it is the soldiers (Xi) vs the intellectuals (Li).

Xi Jinping vs. Li Keqiang - Nikkei Asian Review (2016 article)
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Xi-Jin ... Li-Keqiang

https://asia.nikkei.com/Editor-s-Picks/ ... Li-at-odds

Read in incognito mode to avoid paywall.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3945213

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-econ ... onflicting

Modi may have referred to this division in CCP when he talked about expansionism vs development.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 Jul 2020 17:11

Pulikeshi wrote:
sudarshan wrote:Maybe so, but India is no longer Buddhist. If you read Fa Hian, the attitude towards Hindus was one of overwhelming condescension and pity. Hsuan Tsang was somewhat better, but the same attitude shows. Hsuan Tsang extensively describes Buddhist legends and stories from India, collected Buddhist relics and statues, visited Buddhist sites. He talks about Hindus, but in very superficial terms, nothing about their beliefs, numbers, or legends. It's like he simply wasn't interested, the Hindus were simply regarded as laggards in the adoption of the one true religion, Buddhism. This accusation of a certain "patriarchy" in India isn't new, both Fa Hian and Hsuan Tsang identified the true custodians of the Hindu way, and subjected them to much bile and vitriol. Methinks the modern Chinese attitude towards India is simply a continuation of that.
You are right about the religious chauvinism exhibited. Indian Buddhists exhibited the same attitude so not surprising the Chinese copied..
But my questions are on state policy... Based on Confucian or otherwise... Has China treated India (chola for ex) historically as a vassal state?

Indian scholarship seems to be regurgitating Western scholarship rather than look deeper into some of the questions I’ve raised...
What the Chinese are doing now seems more like a post colonial “opium” hangover!

** Long Post **

I will offer some general comments, over and above what Sudarshan has so accurately described, in order to give an answer.

First of all, Western scholarship on China is extensive and very intellectual too. There is no need to dismiss that. Indian scholarship of China is meagre and is evolving only now, tracing back our cultural, political and trade connections. For example, our group is involved in tracing the Tamilnadu-China connect, as we find interesting bits of information. Our preservation of history is abysmal creating obstacles.

Secondly, except for a brief period of the Yongle Emperor (real name Zhu Di), the second Ming Emperor, who sent his eunuch Zheng He on seven voyages westwards to India and east Africa (during first half of the 15th century), there was no maritime expedition force from China. The land route was very difficult anyway. The Song dynasty mostly confined themselves to the Japan Sea though some might have come to India, but only on trade. The Mongol Yuan dynasty, especially Kublai Khan built warships to visit southeast Asia across the Indo-China Sea and conquer them, but until Admiral Zheng He, there was not much maritime contact directly by the Chinese with us. As the coffers of the Ming Empire dwindled, the Emperor usurped foreign trade from the traditional traders and ordered only the State to run it (a la modern day Chinese SOE). That was how & why, the Emperor's most-trusted eunuch was sent on these voyages. They were both commercial and geo-political. Trade follows the flag but with Zheng He, both came together. Because of trade winds and the well-known circumambulatory route of Sri Lanka, these Zheng He trips ended up on India's West Coast, Kozhikode & Cochin to be precise. Zheng He used to come with, by some accounts, six hundred ships usually very large causing panic to Kingdoms en route. The objective was clear, to make these coastal states tribute-paying vassals to thhe Yongle Emperor, unwilling Kings were taken back to the Emperor's court and after suitable admonition and extraction of promise were returned and re-installed. The Zamorin of Calicut wouldn't have been an exception. There are records of the Zamorin sending his emissaries to the Chinese court of the Yongle Emperor. It is also true that the King of Cochin sought the support of the Yongle Emperor, from the threats of the Zamorin of Kozhikode, and Zheng He delivered that support. That was a kind of Thucydides Trap between an established state (Kozhikode) and a rising one (Kochi), perhaps and the Chinese intervened. At that point of time, Annam (Vietnam), Cambodia, Korea were already vassal states, no doubt. Japan was on and off. The Chinese Emperor's Court had a special office for protocol handling for these vassal states and that existed well until the last Manchu Emperor was removed in 1912.

Though Kanchipuram in Tamilnadu has an important connection with the Chinese, that was only at a religious level. Kanchipuram was a great city where Saivism, Vaishnavism and Buddhism attained great heights simultaneously. Xuanzang (known also as Hsuan Tsang or Huan Tsuang in some Indian texts) came to Kanchipuram and took part in the coronation (or some other function) of Narasimhavarman (who built the Shore temples) in 7th century CE. The Kailasanathar Temple even today has a relief of this event with a Chinese holding a Chinese umbrella over the head of the King. It is believed that it was Xuanzang. Bodhidharma, a Pallava prince renounced royalty, and had already gone to Guanzhou in early 6th century CE, again from Kanchipuram and established the immortal Shaolin temple and introduced Chinese to the art of self-defence (Kung Fu) based on Kalaripayattu. Vajrabodhi, a Brahmin-turned-Buddhist went, again from Kanchipuram, to Chang'an (the old capital until it was moved to Dadu - present day Beijing- by again the same Yongle Emperor of the Ming dynasty because Zheng He had brought in huge wealth from his trade-cum-geopolitical maritime trips). Vajrabodhi exercised enormous influence over the Emperor.

Among the Chola Kings, Kulottunga Chola who conquered Sri Vijaya also sent emissaries to the Chinese Emperor, but that is probably on his own volition.

Now, coming back to some of the questions that you asked.

One, let's disabuse ourselves of the notion that the ancient Chinese venerated India & Indians, except to the extent of the Buddha, Buddhism and its Sutras. Even that created two problems for them. One was, how could an Emperor pay obeisance to a monk, especially when the monk was sitting and the Emperor was standing? That was not heard of in a Confucian-ordained hierarchical society where the Emperor was the Son of the Heaven. Secondly, the embrace of Buddhism lead to issues with the two other ideologies already entrenched in China, Daoism (or Taoism) and Cofucianism. The Emperors had to walk a fine balancing line all the time, though many Emperors threw their lot behind Buddhism. However, the bureaucracy was deeply Confucian, trained as it was rigorously by an institute setup for that purpose (like the IAS Academy at Mussoorie).

Two, on the question of whether the 'Chinese Awe' ended with the Tibetan annexation, the first point is that there was no 'awe' to start with. There certainly was admiration for some aspects of Indian way of life, perhaps. Some Chinese Emperors even called themselves the 'Maitreya' (the future Buddha) and the Dragon Throne was placed on a flight of steps that symbolized 'Mount Mahameru', an important Buddhist idea as well.

Three, what the Chinese thought of the conquest of India by the British, it is difficult to say, IMHO, because unlike China, we didn't exist as a monolith and therefore the British conquest was piecemeal, more like the Chinese salami slicing in Ladakh and the Indo-China Sea (or, is it the Champa Sea?), and was a work-in-progress almost till the end of the Raj. Much of external trade & contact were stopped by the Emperor too for various reasons. There was turmoil within China itself. So, one cannot be sure how much attention did they pay to us since 1857, the watershed year in our history.

On national humiliation, it is a convenient handle used by the CCP to whip up passion and national fervour because the Hundred Years were preceded by 250 years of Yuan (Mongol) rule and nearly 300 years of the Qing rule (the Manchus). In between, no Emperor had the wherewithal to stop constant punishing raids from the horsemen of the steppes (the original Wolf Warriors) even after the Great Wall was built at great cost, and the Tibetan Army had defeated the combined might of the Emperor's and Turkestan's army. For two centuries, the Chinese Emperors thought it fit to marry their princesses off to Tibetan royalty and send them huge gifts to keep them happy !! Why aren't these any humiliation in a country that boasts continuous historical records and seems proud of it?

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 05 Jul 2020 17:48

Great post.

Why aren't these any humiliation in a country that boasts continuous historical records and seems proud of it?

They are hiding their humiliation from these local conquerors by assimilating them into their territory.

Infact the Chinese are humiliating themselves further by flaunting their new found power from wealth accumulated by providing cheap labor to the world.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 05 Jul 2020 20:16

Just Days After MMRDA Cancelled Chinese Bids For Monorail Project, Indian Firms Line Up To Take The Job
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/just-days ... ke-the-job
Indian public sector firms Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BMEL), and private sector player Titagarh have risen to the opportunity which demands rakes which would be operated on Mumbai's monorail line which would run between Jacob Circle, Wadala and Chembur.

Hero Cycles Cancels Rs 900 Crore Deal With China As Part Of Its Commitment To Boycott Chinese Products
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/hero-cycl ... e-products

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Jul 2020 23:33

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 05 Jul 2020 23:42

chetak wrote:

Costliest war they ever fought

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 05 Jul 2020 23:43

darshan wrote:#ChinaBlocksWION: Readers stand in solidarity with us
https://www.wionews.com/india-news/chin ... -us-310490
GreatFire.org, a Chinese internet monitoring watchdog, confirmed that WION has been completely blocked in China.
WION has been ill-famous in China because of its highly critical coverage of Beijing's cover-up of coronavirus outbreak. The move is being seen as a retaliation against India's action banning Chinese apps.

I remember BRF was blocked in China. Is that still the case?
Gautam

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 06 Jul 2020 00:08

Apologies for the long post. These are my observations from dealing with the Chinese, and from my readings of Ed Luttwak, Ralph D. Sawyer, Youngmin Kim et al.
I see a few recurring patterns when it comes to the Chinese, and how politicians and bureaucrats deal with them.

1. Overestimating the intelligence and cunning of the Chinese: Common examples include David Goldman writing in the Claremont Review of Books. I had posted about it here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7615&p=2434729#p2434729

2. China's own overestimation of their strategic ability and cunning: The Han Chinese have their reality distortion field when it comes to their own history, forgetting how often, and for how long they were conquered and subjugated by others, and how often their 'Seven Military Classics', including the Sunzi Bingfa/The Art of War were totally useless. The Art of War comes from the Warring States period, where all involved parties were Han Chinese. It made sense intra-culturally, but there exists a kind of Chinese universalism with respect to the applications of Chinese strategy inter-culturally and it makes no sense.

For example, intra-culturally, the Hans behave pragmatically by being submissive, domineering, or cooperative, depending on how powerful they are. They extend this thinking internationally, and then are surprised that people are not willing to give up their suspicions and are emotional about topics. Ed Luttwak mentions Wen Jiabao's visit in 2010, when the prevailing Chinese assumption was that the Indians will give up grievances based on promises of business opportunities with Chinese businesses.

A more recent example is the Chinese incredulousness that the Indians banned Chinese businesses due to a border skirmish. To the Chinese mind, this is illogical, and putting emotions above business opportunities.

3. The Chinese ratchet up issues as a way to bring those topics to the negotiating table. Examples are all around us, in fact, I won't even quote Indian examples which folks on this forum are well aware of.
The Chinese use the same tactics to negotiate the Spratly Islands, Taiwan, Vietnam etc. The intention is to create a war like situation which brings people to the table. Again, this works (or might work) in an intra-cultural framework, but not when other cultures have different fears, motivations and values.

4. Subterfuge and Fraud Equal Equal to Strategic Brilliance: This is probably one aspect that many of us might have experienced even on a personal level. I've had Chinese suppliers try to commit fraud by supplying counterfeit good, or packing premium products on top and rejected material at the bottom of a crate. In politics and diplomacy, this can be seen with treaties not being honoured, erstwhile claim lines being disregarded or even discarded in favour of new ones with exaggerated claims. Strategems cannot be strategy.

KL Dubey · Post by **KL Dubey** » 06 Jul 2020 00:37

The most important thing resulting from this border confrontation is the stark demonstration of why the Chinese are a long-term threat and there are no quick fixes. The economic disengagement with China and buildup of our own industrial capability to the next level must be irreversible. We should not do business with China unless it becomes a democratic and open society.

We should not entertain any attempt by the Chinese to offer de-escalation in exchange for letting them back into the economy. We should continue with the economic disengagement and building ourselves up. We can keep our forces deployed longer-term, let them do more exercises including our long-pending next joint exercise with the Paks ("we-shoot-you-run"), and keep building infrastructure.

Narendran, true to his name, has played this exceedingly well so far. Xi has shown nothing but an attempt to save his Obscene Orifice (ObOr) and threaten us with a Chinese Pecker (C-Pec).

We are winning this war (and indeed it is a totally new kind of war in which the soldiers are deployed but the action is elsewhere). The last thing we should do is to squander the advantages/gains like we did in the aftermath of the 1971 war.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 06 Jul 2020 00:39

Ardeshir wrote:Apologies for the long post.

....

4. Subterfuge and Fraud Equal Equal to Strategic Brilliance: This is probably one aspect that many of us might have experienced even on a personal level. I've had Chinese suppliers try to commit fraud by supplying counterfeit good, or packing premium products on top and rejected material at the bottom of a crate. In politics and diplomacy, this can be seen with treaties not being honoured, erstwhile claim lines being disregarded or even discarded in favour of new ones with exaggerated claims. Strategems cannot be strategy.

Rest of the post is interesting as well, but this part really caught my eye. This explains a lot, actually. They think of their deviousness as some kind of opaque strategy which no opponent can see through, and the "inscrutable Chinese" myth is simply this. Make a deal, "cleverly" break it, and make the opponent think that was some master-stroke of strategy - "the inscrutable Chinese will behave unpredictably, beware!"

Actually, it is eminently predictable. They keep employing the same ruse again and again, and feeling themselves to be very clever each time. Which begs the question - why are so many of their opponents so dim-witted about seeing through this and exploiting it?

Maybe it has something to do with that image of a great and ancient civilization. Others are loath to believe that such a "great, civilized race" could employ such subterfuge. If there is some subterfuge, it has to be some cleverly thought out strategy which the lesser civilizations simply can't fathom - a one-off incident, some "escape clause in the ancient, inscrutable Chinese Dharma (similar to Sri Krishna's escape clauses)," not a general principle of subterfuge. Wishful thinking, IOW.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 06 Jul 2020 01:15

sudarshan wrote:Rest of the post is interesting as well, but this part really caught my eye. This explains a lot, actually. They think of their deviousness as some kind of opaque strategy which no opponent can see through, and the "inscrutable Chinese" myth is simply this. Make a deal, "cleverly" break it, and make the opponent think that was some master-stroke of strategy - "the inscrutable Chinese will behave unpredictably, beware

This is directly contrasted to people here responding to the original assertions I made following this crisis that our response must be economic and should not be loud or noisy , but instead be effective long term at dismantling the entire edifice of the Chinese import system built in the late 2000s following the MOU between the Congress Party and CPC. Guess what people asked here ?

"But won't that mean we're breaking WTO rules ?"
"What about the possibility that China will punish us by taking us to WTO ?"

Unlike China, which right down to the personal level implicitly gets the dynamics of power, Indians still have a hard time with this concept. We believe it's good to follow rules. That is fine at the personal level. It does not apply at the geopolitical level. Why do people talk about WTO ? China's economic story is built on basically breaking every rule that suits them and then promising to behave, and usually breaking that promise too.

1. Rules are things you make for others to follow. Almost universally, the one making the rules doesn't follow it, unless it suits them to set an example.
2. Following rules means you've adhering to the power structure created by another entity. You ONLY do that if it suits your interests.

India will take time to rise on the world stage because even at the individual level, we are conditioned by colonialism to think of behaving properly. There are no prizes given for good behavior. There are pats on the head offered by those who are happy you're following the structure they've set up for you, like a good servant.

Power is where one creates the dynamic that suits them and gets others to follow it. Power comes from establishing s dynamic where the other cannot do anything else that won't harm their interests even further.

When India, from a position of relative trade balance weakness, responds to a border conflict by basically avoiding all loud talk, and goes about deliberately screwing every avenue of Chinese trade and investment flows into India, that is an act of power assertion to which China cannot respond in any way that cannot harm them. Threaten to cut off their exports ? Hello, that's what we're already doing. Take us to WTO ? Sure, let's glance at the list of everything they've banned in China, it'll work great to make their case. Ban Indian exports to China ? We export ore and intermediate goods. We need that stuff to build the stuff we're going to build locally to replace what we're importing from China. They'll do us a huge favor here. They're accumulated costs so far are already multiple billions. Add a few more billions every week, and all of a sudden their Sun Tsutiapa doesn't look all that compelling.

The Chinese are excellent at using a tactical destabilization framework to keep their opponents distracted, and at stonewalling against their own misbehavior. Indian weakness is fundamentally our own exaggerated sense of valuation of 'good behavior'. It has no value, either in action on our part or that of others. Value lies fundamentally in the ability to express relative power over another party.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 06 Jul 2020 02:34

Very true. They have used WTO rules to perfection - following what's useful to them, ignoring rules that are not advantageous to them.

Also, another important aspect of the Chinese is that they try and force negotiations into bilateral negotiations. Asinine statements such as those here made by Yang Jiechi here are par for the course, and in line with the Wold Warrior ethos. https://newrepublic.com/article/82211/c ... ign-policy
Even this comes from a continuation of the Chinese Tribute system, where vassal states dealt with the emperor 1on1, not in groups.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 06 Jul 2020 03:15

SSridhar wrote: First of all, Western scholarship on China is extensive and very intellectual too. There is no need to dismiss that. Indian scholarship of China is meagre and is evolving only now, tracing back our cultural, political and trade connections. For example, our group is involved in tracing the Tamilnadu-China connect, as we find interesting bits of information. Our preservation of history is abysmal creating obstacles.

Thanks for the detailed reply. No major disagreements, just some comments for consideration -

Would love to see an exposition of Sangoku Denki from the Muromachi period (1392–1573), and it’s use in Meiji Japan’s evolution of the idea of the East. This concept of The East as three Buddhist countries - India, China and Japan shaped much of recent Asian history,
but is not well explored in Indian authorship. Especially when it comes to the conceptualization of an Asian Century.

Lots of details on China and the impact of Japan that has played into the formation of the Middle Kingdom myth that needs detailed research.
It is also my conviction that Japanese authorship in the Meiji era grants a very keen view into the issues in Asia today - esp China.

What similar Chinese era authorship is recommended for the Chinese views? Especially of the Confucian mandarins?
Reading Lin Zhaoen of Ming times there is more of tridharma - A synthetic fusion of Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism.
In the Song for example both Taoism and Buddhism did wane, perhaps a stronger Confucianism in the previous Tang for example...
However the views of the Chinese on major Indian kingdoms they traded with remains somewhat shrouded and needs additional scholarship.
Thanks for the details do Chola times... was aware of most of them.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 06 Jul 2020 03:20

Suraj wrote: Unlike China, which right down to the personal level implicitly gets the dynamics of power, Indians still have a hard time with this concept. We believe it's good to follow rules. That is fine at the personal level. It does not apply at the geopolitical level. Why do people talk about WTO ? China's economic story is built on basically breaking every rule that suits them and then promising to behave, and usually breaking that promise too.

This is super important - Power comes in one enforcing ones will on another and two enabling freedom of options for oneself.
History has been replete with powers that were rule givers as well as rule breakers simultaneously

Suraj wrote:This is directly contrasted to people here responding to the original assertions I made following this crisis that our response must be economic and should not be loud or noisy , but instead be effective long term at dismantling the entire edifice of the Chinese import system built in the late 2000s following the MOU between the Congress Party and CPC. Guess what people asked here ?

My two paisa - similar to the advice of the mother in the movie KGF to Rocky - go alone!
You can win the world if others stand behind you because you are in front of them.

More pragmatically, China, if they have strategmic thinking decided that it is better to have India as a US vassal.
There is no need for India to play into this card... As Luttwak was quoted in an earlier post this is what’s needed...
Indian response should be, as currently done by GoI, multispectral, asymmetric and unexpected...
many more options available not just economic.