Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 May 2020 22:54

Philip wrote: I came across a piece which gave A-1 and A-2 numbers in service.More than what is usually mentioned.I'm not putting out the numbers for obvious reasons ,but is there any open evidence that numbers of A- tanks built have been more than the numbers usually trotted out?

There are no Arjun Mk2's built. Mk1 numbers are already known and the factory has been idle for years. So this is very unlikely.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 May 2020 02:56

Avadi idle? Or just the Arjun line idle? They have a huge backlog of T-72 upgrades and T-90 production,why the last order for a batch of 400+ T-90s from UVZ was made.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 25 May 2020 15:18

I think only Arjun line ( if they still have it) is idle. Not the factory itself.

anupamd · Post by **anupamd** » 30 May 2020 11:01

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2020/05 ... o.html?m=1

This article has a picture of Indian Army transporting Arjun Mk1 MBT near Indo China LAC. If true, this is a good boost for Arjun.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 30 May 2020 23:25

anupamd wrote:http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2020/05 ... o.html?m=1

This article has a picture of Indian Army transporting Arjun Mk1 MBT near Indo China LAC. If true, this is a good boost for Arjun.

Not truck based transport as mentioned in the article , seems to be photoshopped

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Jun 2020 20:53

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 04611?s=20 ----> Guess the variant of BMP...

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 10 Jun 2020 21:20

It's called Carrier mortar tracked, I think, where the 30 mm gun and turret is replaced by an 81 mm mortar.

I personally think that, while it is a good interim solution, they should have used the 120 mm mortar with auto load mechanism and a small turret to position it, like a desi Dragonfire.

Anyways, it gives our boys something to fire back with, across obstacles and over heights and overhangs, upto 6000m I believe.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Jun 2020 21:24

Correct

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 11 Jun 2020 14:28

Ministry of Defence
Make in India gets a big boost; MoD places indent for supply of 156 upgraded BMP Infantry Combat Vehicles of value Rs 1,094 Cr on OFB
Posted On: 02 JUN 2020 7:38PM by PIB Delhi

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1628743

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Jun 2020 21:00

Carrier mortar tracked weapon load out

81 mm mortar
Traverse: 240 either side of mean position
Elevation: 400 to 850
Ammunition: 108 rounds

84 mm RCL Gun (shoulder fired)
Ammunition: 12 rounds

7.62 mm M/C Gun in A/D role (for aerial targets)
Ammunition: 2350 rounds

Armuan · Post by **Armuan** » 22 Jun 2020 23:47

There could be this possibility of Chinese Type 15 deployed in this confrontation depending on how the situation evolves. What impact does such a light tank provide? Has there ever been a proposal along similar lines for us to develop/ procure a lighter tank or an IFV with a turret to deploy in the mountains?

I am only an armchair observer. Would like to know if there are any advantages/ disadvantages of having such a system, to be able to deploy rapidly at these altitudes and select terrains? Would it provide us with any tactical advantages even if it is of a deterrent value?
Thanks.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 23 Jun 2020 01:11

Armuan wrote:There could be this possibility of Chinese Type 15 deployed in this confrontation depending on how the situation evolves. What impact does such a light tank provide? Has there ever been a proposal along similar lines for us to develop/ procure a lighter tank or an IFV with a turret to deploy in the mountains?

I am only an armchair observer. Would like to know if there are any advantages/ disadvantages of having such a system, to be able to deploy rapidly at these altitudes and select terrains? Would it provide us with any tactical advantages even if it is of a deterrent value? Thanks.

Impact - Low.

light tank's role has been superseded by IFVs - they are about the same weight, same mobility, same protection. Light tanks are slightly superior in cost of firepower because 105mm main-gun rounds are cheaper than ATGMs. But they are significantly inferior in total system cost because they can't carry the infantry dismounts who can multiply the fire-effect of an IFV.

This is the reason why the PT-76s were not replaced with another light tank, despite their good performance with the 45 Cavalry in the swamps of Bangladesh (1971). The role had effectively been taken over by the BMPs by early 1980s. If push comes to shove, it is much cheaper to mount a few cheap 106mm RCLs on BMPs for cost-effective firepower against non-tank targets, and then use the costlier ATGMs for the tanks.

Yes, the DRDO proposed mounting a French 105mm turret on a BMP2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_light_tank

As noted above, it provides very little advantage, but causes a lot of logistical headache.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Jun 2020 00:48

^^^
While that may be conceptually true, we have not really invested in R&D in armoured technologies, by that I mean focused development driven by user needs to create solutions for the unique challenges that we face, Chinese Type 15 is a result of that. All we have done in last 2 decades is Arjun wild goose chase, rectify T-72/90 issues, small scale DRDO research projects and put out "Futuristic" RFIs for import-giri. I mean is the latest version of tin can really what army thinks is its perfect tank? Is the decades old BMP-2 the pinnacle of IFV design? Heck we haven't even been able to buy an desi 4x4 hummer in spite of multiple competent private players available.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 24 Jun 2020 08:18

BMP-2 is the IFV solution that India has, and Abhay may be the IFV solution India needs. What I am pointing out is, a light tank is an obsolete concept that has been overtaken by the IFV.

The Chinese regularly churn out solutions looking for a problem.

Note that the GIAT 105mm turret (which the DRDO wanted to used in its light tank) was designed for the French AMX10RC. The French are themselves retiring AMX10RC, and replacing it with EBRC Jaguar (40mm cannon -- same as Abhay and TATA Kestrel).

srin · Post by **srin** » 24 Jun 2020 09:33

^^^^
I agree.

Light tanks compromise on both protection and firepower for mobility.
Many light tanks don't have armour to withstand 30mm round hits. The only way they can engage MBTs would be with ATGMs - the other 30mm or 105mm guns don't have the punch or range to engage MBTs. And the IFVs do it already.

So - either go for a proper MBT or an IFV with ATGMs.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Jul 2020 09:32

https://twitter.com/DefProdnIndia/statu ... 23424?s=20 ---> In next 10 years, Engine Factory Avadi will be supplying 100% indigenised 2550 numbers Engine V46-6 (Tank T-72) and 1716 numbers of Engine V92S2 (Tank T-90), saving to the tune of Rs. 800 Crores.

mody · Post by **mody** » 01 Jul 2020 15:12

Don't understand why produce both the engines. All T-72's requiring an engine change or those being upgraded, should all be upgraded using the V92S2 engine of the T90 only. What is the use of producing the old T-72 engine with 780HP? Seems like a complete waste. If the transmission also needs to be changed, to match with the engine capacity, then so be it. Change it too.

In fact for the current scenario in Ladakh, T-72 tanks upgraded with the 1,000 HP V92S2 engine would prove to be ideal. In the high altitude areas, the engine de-rates, due to low oxygen levels. Having a more powerful engine, would also allow some additional armour protection and maybe some top protection for the turret to be added. The addition of ERA bricks have already increased the weight of the tank, from what it used to be, while the engine has remained the same.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Jul 2020 16:44

Let’s see if these engine license production results in the capability to build indigenous ones (or even much improved variants). That’s when India will turn a corner.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 03 Jul 2020 21:49

Saw a AV report today which says L&T is working on optimizing the K9 Vajra hull for Light Tank for the Indian Army. L&T wants to ensure the K9 assembly lines which will be utilized after the initial order for 110 K9's are completed at the end of this year.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jul 2020 21:50

L&T thinking out of the box. Nice! Thanks Vips. If you see a link to this, please do post.

srin · Post by **srin** » 03 Jul 2020 22:02

I saw it here. I don't know about the credibility of this channel. It looks like an online version of IDRW. But, there is an update everyday, the jingo in me needs such steroids and Youtube obediently puts it in my recommended list ... so watching it for the past few months

prasan · Post by **prasan** » 04 Jul 2020 00:02

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/1279082532076613633

Interesting! Lt. Gen KJ Singh (Retd) in an article in The Tribune says to counter Chinese Type-15, DRDO has started developement work and there is a possibility to optimise hull of K-9 to develop a light tank. Result will be something like this in pic I believe.

Armuan · Post by **Armuan** » 04 Jul 2020 11:03

srin wrote:I saw it here. I don't know about the credibility of this channel. It looks like an online version of IDRW. But, there is an update everyday, the jingo in me needs such steroids and Youtube obediently puts it in my recommended list ... so watching it for the past few months

...

Wow, beautifully done. I tried looking them up on google & fb to see who owns them (just to see for any bias/ promotion of particular interests), but could not find details. Combined with visuals and good presentation, it was a pleasure to watch. We need more such visuals. Thanks for sharing.

I wonder if the clip on K9 was showing L&T factory floor, it looks well organized and good PR.

Armuan · Post by **Armuan** » 04 Jul 2020 11:20

Adding another video to Srin's post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PThglIz_RFs

Starting @ 3:04, the video is showing fast patrol vessels that are being moved to Pangong Tso lake. Are these the FPV types, or is it some other design?

Loved the fact they called it "occupied Tibet" @ around 1:30.

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Jul 2020 14:42

So it required a crisis to Armor Corps to notice that the Chinese have a 35ton tank

Deployed since 2018..

chola · Post by **chola** » 04 Jul 2020 15:08

nam wrote:So it required a crisis to Armor Corps to notice that the Chinese have a 35ton tank

Deployed since 2018..

A light tank made sense for the PLA because they needed to operate on the plateau. Just like their aircraft can only take off with partial load, their tanks can only operate quickly with a lighter load.

It'll only hurt the IA not having one if we were driving to Lhasa. Once the chini light tank comes off the plateau and into lower altitudes it's dead meat for a proper MBT.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 04 Jul 2020 23:23

nam wrote:So it required a crisis to Armor Corps to notice that the Chinese have a 35ton tank
Deployed since 2018..

The choice of main gun would be very interesting here.

The IA probably would push for the Roosie 125 mm 2A46 smoothbore main gun, logistical similarity et al. However the platform is essentially Korean and there would be some Korean involvement for sure (IP rights et al). Now, since Korea is aligned to the west I don't foresee the Russians very keen on India mating their main gun on a western platform. Also the plethora of using 2 piece ammunition, mating the auto-loader etc would be too complex to resolve in a small timeframe.

That opens up a very interesting possibility of using DRDO's own 120mm main gun from the Arjun Tank.

a.) No IP issues
b.) No Roosie interference
c.) Proven bustle mount ammunition stowage
d.) Cavernous interiors of the SPG platform would easily allow a 4 man crew.

If this possibility comes around, it might just breathe an air of life into the Arjun and make us significantly #atmanirbhar in Armoured vehicles. Heck, we could also convert the K9 platform into a massive ICV!

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 05 Jul 2020 16:06

Amiet R. Kashyap
@Amitraaz
CVRDE's Bharat power pack...
It will replace the existing power pack of the Arjun MK1a and will power the future MBT.
ID as a 2200 kg unit powered by Diesel High Pour Point-A fuel.
Operational Alt and temperatures: up to 17000 ft and -20° C.
pic: DRDO

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/1279402941636464642
Good to see that the engine is real, hope they can productionalize it.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 05 Jul 2020 17:11

^^^ This image is atleast 3~5 yrs old.There has been an absolute silence on this topic from the DRDO, except the cryptic phrase - work is going on!
Earlier it was rumored to be based on the Cummins QSK38

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 05 Jul 2020 17:12

abhik wrote:
Amiet R. Kashyap
@Amitraaz
CVRDE's Bharat power pack...
It will replace the existing power pack of the Arjun MK1a and will power the future MBT.
ID as a 2200 kg unit powered by Diesel High Pour Point-A fuel.
Operational Alt and temperatures: up to 17000 ft and -20° C.
pic: DRDO

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/1279402941636464642
Good to see that the engine is real, hope they can productionalize it.

He has just used 2015 saurav jha written article to put this info and has no idea on current state of this project . Is is this project even running or has been scrapped. This like Kaveri engine has absolutely no updates.

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 05 Jul 2020 17:13

prasan wrote:https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/1279082532076613633
Interesting! Lt. Gen KJ Singh (Retd) in an article in The Tribune says to counter Chinese Type-15, DRDO has started developement work and there is a possibility to optimise hull of K-9 to develop a light tank. Result will be something like this in pic I believe.

A lighter K9 won't be K9 at all even if its base design is based on K9.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 05 Jul 2020 21:47

aditp, in the past the DRDO mounted the Arjun's 120mm main-gun on a T-72 hull and realized that it had too much recoil (see DRDO Tank-EX).

If L&T has excess/unused capacity, it is better off producing K-10 reloader for the K-9 Vajra, and partnering with the Koreans for serial production of the recently selected K30 SPAAG. A light tank, as I have noted before, is an obsolete concept -- too weak to perform as an MBT and too niche to perform as an IFV, it is a one-trick-pony.

And if the DRDO has learned any lessons from the failed Tank-EX program and the Russians' lessons from the First Chechen War, it should develop an unmanned BMPT Terminator turret with wide-angle gun elevation/depression. It can cheaply and easily be mated on T-72 hulls already license-produced by Avadi.

Sinhag · Post by **Sinhag** » 05 Jul 2020 22:29

Vips wrote:Saw a AV report today which says L&T is working on optimizing the K9 Vajra hull for Light Tank for the Indian Army. L&T wants to ensure the K9 assembly lines which will be utilized after the initial order for 110 K9's are completed at the end of this year.

That’s a good development if true

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 05 Jul 2020 22:57

Sinhag wrote:
Vips wrote:Saw a AV report today which says L&T is working on optimizing the K9 Vajra hull for Light Tank for the Indian Army. L&T wants to ensure the K9 assembly lines which will be utilized after the initial order for 110 K9's are completed at the end of this year.
That’s a good development if true

A noob pooch to any 'Tankman' on the forum: these light tanks if produced will have wide application or only niche application.
Also in future if there is plan to get on G219 can Rommel's feat be repeated to race on to G314/315 for a pincer movement for push across road to Muzzafarabad.
Otherwise if they are sitting duck to anti tank defence and attack helis what is their use???

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Jul 2020 06:34

^^^
It’s not just the thickness of armor that protects armored vehicles. There have been a great deal of advancements in countermeasures, such as thermal camouflage, laser detection and jamming, smoke screens against thermal/IR/laser. Other advancements include modular add-on armor, networked situational awareness, and stand-off and remote targeting and weapon systems.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 06 Jul 2020 10:08

Sinhag wrote:
Vips wrote:Saw a AV report today which says L&T is working on optimizing the K9 Vajra hull for Light Tank for the Indian Army. L&T wants to ensure the K9 assembly lines which will be utilized after the initial order for 110 K9's are completed at the end of this year.
That’s a good development if true

Light tanks are no use...Read Parghas' posts.

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 06 Jul 2020 12:09

srai wrote:^^^
It’s not just the thickness of armor that protects armored vehicles. There have been a great deal of advancements in countermeasures, such as thermal camouflage, laser detection and jamming, smoke screens against thermal/IR/laser. Other advancements include modular add-on armor, networked situational awareness, and stand-off and remote targeting and weapon systems.

Raiji thanks
https://youtu.be/flYE5VUTWd0
Found this alpha defence video on light gives some insight also about IA's endless testing of the DRDO light tank in late eighties

Why should only crisis bring 'Instant Gyan' for the policy makers

Why cant they foresee!!
Also IA should cop some of the blame if they now ask for a light tank don't you think

nam · Post by **nam** » 06 Jul 2020 15:22

I guess it is better to go for lighter full fledged tank, than lightly defended tank. If we can get a 3 crew, 1500hp, unmanned turret? at 45 ton it would fit the bill.

it is not easy as autoloader need to be able to load the rounds on to the gun and still have access to the rounds which are not in the turret.

A smart autoloader, unmanned turret, high nitrogen steel, composite parts should allows us to build a 40-45 ton MBT. However the biggest issue will be: COST.

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Jul 2020 15:32

^^^
DRDO has couple of concepts floating around:

nam · Post by **nam** » 06 Jul 2020 15:41

I have zero hope of any of these being developed. And I am super confident Armor corps has neither the vision nor will ask DRDO to develop any of these.

Armor corps will simply pick what is available from the Russians or in great leap of imagination some Korean kit.

The fact that they are inducting the same version of T90 even now, with zero upgrades gives me least confidence. T90 does even have laser counter measures which DRDO has put on Arjun.