Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

[kit]

Now what if Biden wins the race for the next POTUS ? ..his foreign secy is already making noises reg kashmir

[Philip]

Civilian contractor in India to operate MI-26s? You must be joking.No armed force will outsource ,barring the US, such sensitive operations,transporting howitzers,missiles,AVs,border infra. eqpt.,troops,etc. to frontline locations to a pvt. operator. Secondly these aren't something you find everyday in civilian colours where operating these birds are commonplace.The fact is the IAF want these heavlift helos upgraded for the reasons given and may in the future buy more 26Ts. Just look at their troop carrying capacity,80 vs only 30 for the Chinook. In areas where there are no airstrips such helo ops will be invaluable. How do you think Siachen has been supplied all these years with the MI-26s stationed at Chandigarh assisting in lifting heavy loads to bases in that theatre? There is a 15th.. May 2020 v-clip of an IAF MI-26 operating in the Siachen glacier. So please don't make casual remarks when you don't know the actual facts.

The US under Biden will once again be a most troublesome friend.Remember the old adage," with friends like these,who needs enfmies?" One report has it that Washington in mightily pissed because we're buying more MIGs and MKIs and must be sanctioned under CAATSA! The old threat of buying S-400s is being trotted out again.Should the US start opening its nether orifice again in India's direction,it can kiss the Quad goodbye.
The unreliability of the US is why India must arm itself with the means to fight its battles alone.

Which imbecile will now opt for key US weaponry bought at huge cost, which can be rendered useless at any time due to US CAATSA sanctions at the whims and fancies of its political leadership? We have never,ever faced such a situ with Russia spanning 6 decades of v.close military ties and supplies,even now with our key cutting edge weaponry being assisted or of Ru origin.
The US/ Lockheed has been desperate to sell us the F-16 under a new number as production will finally shut down after 5 decades.It has hoped that India will be the LAST nation in the world to buy the bird,which the Pakis have been flying for decades!
All the crap about possible F-35/F-22 " stealth" capabilities if we buy the F- whatever, is just propaganda,a carrot dangled in front of the donkey's nose to keep it moving in a US direction! It has consistently refused its ally Japan for F-22s and even its orher allies are getting F-35s of differing capability depending upon their share in the project. To imagine the vetran F-16 acquiring such advanced capability stretches the imagination. If so,why is the line being shut down? Are we such cretins to fall for such a cheap trick? The US can now with its latest intestinal rumblings can kiss the MMRCA 2.0 goodbye. I anticipate the Gripen to stand a v.good chance as it costs less than the Rafale, plus would boost the LCA programme with common technical support for a requirement for around 400 aircraft of the type.

If Biden is enthroned in the White House, 2 decades of improved Indo- US relations will go down the shitpot.

[Philip]

PS: We were very happy with the Viggen,but it came with a US engine.Uncle Sam sabotaged the deal. The Jag was " Anglo- French", kept both the UK and France happy,a pity the upgraded Jag offer wasn't taken up. The Soviets at that time didn't have an equiv. fighter,only the SU-24 which they had not exported I think upto that time.It could've been a v.useful acquisition but larger than the Jag.

[Barath]

One report has it that Washington in mightily pissed because we're buying more MIGs and MKIs and must be sanctioned under CAATSA! ....The US/ Lockheed has been desperate to sell us the F-16 under a new number as production will finally shut down after 5 decades

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comme ... ool-111275

Rahul Bedi, (the freelance Jane's contributor) mentioned it here - The US grumbled about CAATSA and India to June's UK just before the recent Mig29/MKI order. Hence the conclusion he drew.

LockMart already shut down the Fort Worth line and moved it to Greenville SC in Aug last year. F16 upgrades will be in Fort Worth (also builds new F35s). New F16s for Bulgaria, 25 for Morocco and 66 for Taiwan etc.. it will run a few more years as LM tries to eke it out.

[MeshaVishwas]

DARIN-III!
Image courtesy Gp. Capt. HVT sir on Twitter.

[brar_w]

The US/ Lockheed has been desperate to sell us the F-16 under a new number as production will finally shut down after 5 decades.It has hoped that India will be the LAST nation in the world to buy the bird,which the Pakis have been flying for decades!
A.. If so,why is the line being shut down?

Had you done proper research you would have been able to dig up the production plans for the F-16, its current customer and order backlog and the expected production rates, and why Lockheed needed to move the production line from the USAF's FW site to a different Lockheed owned (instead of LM operated) facility.

All that information is readily available for FREE on the world wide web. If you do decide to dig it up, could you do a quick comparison of say the F-16 backlog to that of say the MiG-35?

[Kartik]

DARIN-III!
Image courtesy Gp. Capt. HVT sir on Twitter.

Great image. The Jaguar looks really neat with the small radome. I know some people will miss the chisel nose, but I somehow like the radome one a lot more. Of course, capability wise it's streets ahead thanks to the Elta 2052 on board.

[JayS]

We should have more Sq of Tejas MK2 by 2030. May be 3.

How do you figure that? If the first flight of the prototype happens by 2025 (earliest we can hope for) followed by 2-3 years of testing and initial production, how do you get 3 full squadrons operational by 2030? That is impossibly optimistic.

Also, I am confused about the rather odd number of Mk 1A being ordered - 83. If you consider standard squadron strength as 18 plus maybe 2 reserves you're still left with 3 extra fighters which doesn't make sense to me.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7691&p=2448268#p2448263

[Karan M]

DARIN-III!
Image courtesy Gp. Capt. HVT sir on Twitter.

Great image. The Jaguar looks really neat with the small radome. I know some people will miss the chisel nose, but I somehow like the radome one a lot more. Of course, capability wise it's streets ahead thanks to the Elta 2052 on board.

The first batch still have the 2032 as there were delays with the 2052 availability.

[MeshaVishwas]

Great image. The Jaguar looks really neat with the small radome. I know some people will miss the chisel nose, but I somehow like the radome one a lot more. Of course, capability wise it's streets ahead thanks to the Elta 2052 on board.

The first batch still have the 2032 as there were delays with the 2052 availability.

Will this have an impact on the Mark-1A program?

[Karan M]

Not really, the next few batches should have the 2052 implying the radar should be available for the Mk1A too.

[Rakesh]

Israeli Air Force Unveils New ‘Special Forces Squadron’,
Experts Call It Blue Print For Indian Air Force
https://eurasiantimes.com/israeli-air-f ... air-force/
14 July 2020

The 7th Aerial Special Forces Wing will combine all Israeli Air Force’s special forces under one command. Aviation experts in India believe that the revolutionary squadron from Israel could become a blueprint for future Indian Air Force (IAF) squadrons. According to an army press release, the 7th Aerial Special Forces Wing was established to meet operational needs and respond to changing and growing threats in the various arenas. The 7th Aerial Special Forces Wing will include search-and-rescue Unit 669, Shaldag commando unit and outfit that builds airfields behind enemy lines. The move aims “to increase the operational effectiveness of the units. The wing will function as a complementary and unique component to Israeli Air Force activities through special depth, routine and emergency operations.”

The Israeli Air Force routinely carries out military operations in the Gaza Strip, typically targeting installations of Hamas, as well as carrying out airstrikes against Iranian targets in Syria, as part of the effort by Israel to ensure Tehran does not expand its military presence in the war-torn country. The new wing will contain the air force’s Unit 669, the elite search-and-rescue group; the Shaldag commando unit; the Frontal Landing Unit, which builds ad hoc landing strips behind enemy lines; a dedicated intelligence unit for the wing; and a special forces school. IAF Commanding Officer Maj. Gen. Amikam Norkin has hailed the introduction of the 7th Aerial Special Forces Wing and has described it as moving into a new era in the history of Israeli Air Force.

“We are standing on the shoulders of our predecessors, who were courageous and took action, and now we are leading the way.”Today we move forward to a new chapter,” he said. The introduction of 7th Aerial Special Forces Wing has generated a buzz amongst aviation experts and enthusiast in India who feel that this squadron could be the blueprint for future IAF squadrons. Surrounded by adversaries Pakistan and China, IAF is looking to increase its squadrons from 28 to 40. An IAF squadron modelled after the 7th Aerial Special Forces Wing would be ideal for India to counter any aggression by Islamabad or Beijing. It would also prepare India for a two-front battle, should that scenario ever become a reality, experts talking to the EurAsian Times argue.

[Philip]

Yes,the venerable IAF can emulate heavyweight air forces like Bulgaria,Morocco and Taiwan ,the last usually starved of any worthwhile cutting edge mil eqpt. as it seeks to counter the PLAAF and PAF combined! That too when the PAF has flown the F-16s for decades. Typical Yanqui advice to see that both sides cancel each other out while making much wampum in the bargain from both sides! America being the lesser of two evils being a democracy,where 8 years is the max. time for a pres.,two terms.

In the current context,the IAF require urgent force multipliers like extra AWACS/AEW /IRST aircraft,tankers,since we've smaller numbers than the enemy and have a hostile PAF too who almost certainly will join in the fray when its eastern master cracks the whip. As many are speculating,what we're seeing may be the opening moves in a Sino-Pak JV in Ladakh and J&K to try and seize as much territory that they can in Kashmir and Ladakh.
The IAF will have its assets stretched thin right from Maharashtra to Ar.Pr. as planned by the PRC,thinning out our forces in the hope that their superior numbers will win the day.Numbers therefore matter and the GOI must aim at acquiring extra numbers of existing aircraft even on lease from foreign fleets.Extra Rafales from France for instance with the promise of extra orders could see us add to both numbers and capability right now when it matters.The autumn is going to be hotter than the summer.

[MeshaVishwas]

Was watching RIAT(Virtual) and got to know something that I hadn't known earlier:
A ferry of fighter from the UK to US(6K Km distance) involves 8 Mid Air refuelling ops en route because the planning takes to account an emergency where the (multi engine) fighter has to be recovered at the nearest airfield while flying with one engine!
I thought the distance means just 1or2 mid air fuel stops!

[Shubham]

How do you think Siachen has been supplied all these years with the MI-26s stationed at Chandigarh assisting in lifting heavy loads to bases in that theatre? There is a 15th.. May 2020 v-clip of an IAF MI-26 operating in the Siachen glacier. So please don't make casual remarks when you don't know the actual facts.

Sirji , humour me for few moments
1. It has been several years that Siachen has seen a Mi26 operating. But still the glacier is being supplied

2. In video that you mention , I am 100 % sure that Mi26 taking off is not a helipad in Siachen and 99 % sure helipad where it is landing is not in Siachen.

So Mi26 for siachen - not much required.
Mi26 for Uttarkand kind of placed - much required

However I support your view on continuation of Mi26 for IAF. It's been a view of several relevant ppl that Chinook is a slightly bigger Mi 17 (as far as loads/ passengers are concerned) and Mi26 is being missed not being around.

In my view IAF should be gradually pulling out from HADR (through helicopters) which should be done more by civilian operators ; this would add to demand of civilian chopper in Indian market.

[Gyan]

As per the lessons of Kargill, Self Protection suites of Aircraft & Helicopters are very important. Self protection suite have multiple components like:-

IFF
Chaff & Flare dispensers
Jammers
Laser Warning Systems
MAWS
DIRCMs
Towed decoys
Flying decoys

I think, hope, assume that our aircraft all have IFF & Chaff, Flare systems.

But stock of Jammers seem to be limited. Perhaps 1/3rd of requirements.

For rest of systems there does not seem to be any Sense of urgency. Lot of these systems are in vogue & have seen action in Syria. I think we need to tap our contacts in Israel & USA

[MeshaVishwas]

Just got incredibly confused with so much news articles about the additional 2 A-50EI, last info was it went to CCS for approval(16-17 months ago)
I remembered this from 2015 and this from 2017 but still nothing!
Even our Gajraj upg program contract inking seems to be down with babudomitis.

[Philip]

NATO leased MI-8/17s in Afg. They are essential for the mountainous terrain.It takes days to travel by road to certain destinations,just minutes or a few hours by helo.Fastest way to induct,supply and bring back troops and eqpt. As said before,the MI-26T has a passr. capacity of 80 troops.Can carry a regular 155 mm arty piece,even a downed Chinook (Afg). Both MI-26s and Chinooks are in service with other nations.We should for the interim lease these types to give a boost immediately to on-going and future ops. When the balloon gores up,helos of all types ,from attack helos to gunships like Rudra,med. and utlility helos like MI-17Vs,Dhruvs,etc, will be invaluable .remember the BDesh ops .The more we have ,are able to have for the interim until new orders arrive,the better will our capabilities be. The same too for aircraft.When we've even leased an Akula SSGN with another on its way,leasing aircraft and helos would be far easier.

[chetak]

IAF Moves Jaguars To Car Nicobar, Navy Conducts Exercise With US Warships To Send Clear Message To China
https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/iaf- ... e-to-china

[chetak]

---POST DELETED---

[nam]

The standoff with the Chinis is bringing out one absolute reality. We have been caught like a deer in the headlight.

At 1T GDP the Chinis were running two fighter programs: J10, J11. They constantly upgraded their flanker version. J16 is now flying with an AESA, MAWS, higher thrust engine than our AL31, longer range BVR etc etc

Our AESA prototype was ready for flight in 2017 and it finally flies in 2019, because a 2.5T GDP country could not make a fighter available to fly the damn thing

No one thought about creating a AESA to try it on Su30.. No progress on upgrades.. Only one objective since the past 9 years. Rafale. Nothing else.

[MeshaVishwas]

Saar, PFB:

Only for argument...
-Unless composite airframe gives weight saving it's not useful
-AESA doesn't inherently give anything that a PESA doesn't provide, except better MTBF
-MAWS & LWR are not yet very useful for fighters
-Brah-Mos, SPICE-2000, NG LGBs, LDP, Recon system are good

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12853 ... 93153?s=19

[Philip]

Guys will remember my idea sev. years ago about using our retiring MIG-21s as " kamikaze? missiles or UAVs. Well,according to Def. news,the PLAAF may have done just that,converted some of their J-7s,21 clones, as UAVs now stationed at Hotan their premier air base in Ladakh. We have or are retiring a few hundred MIG-21s.Surely cannibalisation can keep a goodly number of them flying for the above purposes or even war reserves as long as the Bisons are flying. Every bird that can take to the air in wartime from trainers,which can be used for GA, to recently retd. fighters have their uses.

Nam,there are several options to have tried out an AESA radar in recent times,given the upgrades for MIG-29s and M2Ks. Similarly given the almost similar size,A Jag could be used or dedicated LCA prototype.When the IN can invest from its own meagre budget,the smallest of the services,enough money to develop a naval carrier variant of the LCA,a tremendous feat, what has the IAF been doing on its part ?

[chola]

The standoff with the Chinis is bringing out one absolute reality. We have been caught like a deer in the headlines.

At 1T GDP the Chinis were running two fighter programs: J10, J11. They constantly upgraded their flanker version. J16 is now flying with an AESA, MAWS, higher thrust engine than our AL31, longer range BVR etc etc

Our AESA prototype was ready for flight in 2017 and it finally flies in 2019, because a 2.5T GDP country could not make a fighter available to fly the damn thing

No one thought about creating a AESA to try it on Su30.. No progress on upgrades.. Only one objective since the past 9 years. Rafale. Nothing else.

Much of that is because we have no control over the MKI beyond what the Russkies stipulate in the contract. We can't build a prototype of an Indian flanker. We can't build any more than a fixed number and we can't change a screw.

The chinis OTOH do whatever the hell they want with their flanker TOT and build them in infinite numbers too. HAL is closing the Nasik line and clobbering 400 suppliers. Why can't we retain that hard-fought ecosystem and build our own J-15 and J-16?

We should just continue the MKI as a pure Indian project. Buy the Russians off by importing the engines. If they are still angry then switch over to the F-18, F-21 or F-35. Tired of the restrictive Russian screwdriver stuff.

[Aditya_V]

Quite Frankly much of the Chinese do under Russian TOT is passed off as ingenious stuff, All flanker variants have Russian input. It is like Pakis claiming they design, manufacture the JF-17 at PAC Kamra. No need to beat ourselves over it.

[chola]

Quite Frankly much of the Chinese do under Russian TOT is passed off as ingenious stuff, All flanker variants have Russian input. It is like Pakis claiming they design, manufacture the JF-17 at PAC Kamra. No need to beat ourselves over it.

I would be happy to have Russian input (engines) if we can keep the ecosystem like the chinis have at Shenyang. The chini flanker lines and their skilled workforce are maintained. Ours will die on the vine.

We should be beat ourselves over it. Maybe it'll wake people up and we preserve the MKI ecosystem.

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... suppliers/

[ks_sachin]

The standoff with the Chinis is bringing out one absolute reality. We have been caught like a deer in the headlines.

At 1T GDP the Chinis were running two fighter programs: J10, J11. They constantly upgraded their flanker version. J16 is now flying with an AESA, MAWS, higher thrust engine than our AL31, longer range BVR etc etc

Our AESA prototype was ready for flight in 2017 and it finally flies in 2019, because a 2.5T GDP country could not make a fighter available to fly the damn thing

No one thought about creating a AESA to try it on Su30.. No progress on upgrades.. Only one objective since the past 9 years. Rafale. Nothing else.

Well said. It is just not the radar though is it. It is across the board.

[kit]

Not really, the next few batches should have the 2052 implying the radar should be available for the Mk1A too.

Wasnt there a news about the 2052s being blocked by the Americans a few years back ?..that spurred India's own AESA development

[vcsekhar]

Was watching RIAT(Virtual) and got to know something that I hadn't known earlier:
A ferry of fighter from the UK to US(6K Km distance) involves 8 Mid Air refuelling ops en route because the planning takes to account an emergency where the (multi engine) fighter has to be recovered at the nearest airfield while flying with one engine!
I thought the distance means just 1or2 mid air fuel stops!

There are so many in-flight refueling ops en route because they plan it in such a way that any aircraft at any time should have sufficient fuel to divert to the closest airport. So they top up the fuel as per that calculations so just in case if any aircraft has a problem (for instance, a probe breaks, or weather does not permit a refuel etc etc) during a refuel they can divert to an airport and land.
The do not wait till they are at max range before filling up the tanks.

[MeshaVishwas]

Was watching RIAT(Virtual) and got to know something that I hadn't known earlier:
A ferry of fighter from the UK to US(6K Km distance) involves 8 Mid Air refuelling ops en route because the planning takes to account an emergency where the (multi engine) fighter has to be recovered at the nearest airfield while flying with one engine!
I thought the distance means just 1or2 mid air fuel stops!

There are so many in-flight refueling ops en route because they plan it in such a way that any aircraft at any time should have sufficient fuel to divert to the closest airport. So they top up the fuel as per that calculations so just in case if any aircraft has a problem (for instance, a probe breaks, or weather does not permit a refuel etc etc) during a refuel they can divert to an airport and land.
The do not wait till they are at max range before filling up the tanks.

Yeah! Mission planning is really thorough and I cannot even imagine how much planning went into our Pitch Black Ex participation.
And did some searching around after the video and found that the speed tolerance for a drogue/probe refuelling contact is +/- 1Kt!
I think I prefer the Boom type thankyouverymuch.

[vcsekhar]

Yeah! Mission planning is really thorough and I cannot even imagine how much planning went into our Pitch Black Ex participation.
And did some searching around after the video and found that the speed tolerance for a drogue/probe refuelling contact is +/- 1Kt!
I think I prefer the Boom type thankyouverymuch.

Both systems have their pros and cons, I think there was one episode of the fighter pilot podcast that did discuss this in good detail. This is the episode in which the tankers are discussed.
https://www.fighterpilotpodcast.com/epi ... g-tankers/
I will happily recommend anyone with an interest in fighters to listen to this podcast.

[brar_w]

There are so many in-flight refueling ops en route because they plan it in such a way that any aircraft at any time should have sufficient fuel to divert to the closest airport. So they top up the fuel as per that calculations so just in case if any aircraft has a problem (for instance, a probe breaks, or weather does not permit a refuel etc etc) during a refuel they can divert to an airport and land.
The do not wait till they are at max range before filling up the tanks.

Yeah! Mission planning is really thorough and I cannot even imagine how much planning went into our Pitch Black Ex participation.
And did some searching around after the video and found that the speed tolerance for a drogue/probe refuelling contact is +/- 1Kt!
I think I prefer the Boom type thankyouverymuch.

Aircraft excessively refuel on ocean crossings because the either one of them, or the tanker itself could develop a fault forcing everyone to divert to the nearest airplane. So you don't really need to be a lot empty before you hit the tanker and top up. With a boom you refuel one at a time so if you have a lot of aircraft lining up it will take some coordination. But it can pump fuel and is really good way to refuel larger aircraft with larger fuel tanks such as bombers.

[Rakesh]

Amidst Ladakh Tensions, Indian Navy MiG-29K Carrier Jets Head North
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... north.html

Confirming the deployment of MiG-29Ks to a northern base, an Indian Navy officer at the INS Hansa naval air station told Livefist, “The jets have operated from northern bases on a couple of occasions already over the last few years in anticipation of such exigencies. Pilots are fully tied-in with operating in that area. We conduct a great deal of over-shore and inland training anyway, so this is an expected deployment. The use of available combat assets to generate sorties precisely where and when required makes eminent sense.”

[Cain Marko]

Amidst Ladakh Tensions, Indian Navy MiG-29K Carrier Jets Head North
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... north.html

Confirming the deployment of MiG-29Ks to a northern base, an Indian Navy officer at the INS Hansa naval air station told Livefist, “The jets have operated from northern bases on a couple of occasions already over the last few years in anticipation of such exigencies. Pilots are fully tied-in with operating in that area. We conduct a great deal of over-shore and inland training anyway, so this is an expected deployment. The use of available combat assets to generate sorties precisely where and when required makes eminent sense.”

Wow. Now that is interesting. That will bring a sqd worth of additional fighters into play where needed. I bet the vikad will still operate to full strength. Nice.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 17152?s=20 ----> Going by recent developments, one can say tri-service coordination and synergy is doing rather well. After stationing Jaguars at Carnic in Andaman-Nicobar comes news that half a squadron of Indian Navy's MiG-29Ks are now doing duty along the Himalayan Frontier for the past week.

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 18497?s=20 ----> Turns out the MiG-29Ks have replaced IAF jets in some of the bases in the hinterland in western India and Air Force planes have moved up north. Whatever the exact situation, good to see forces acting in concert as they ought to.

[Rakesh]

Drag & Drop these pictures into a new window for full size.

The MiG-29 in the middle is a UPG variant of the Indian Air Force. Notice the IFR probe and the serial number (KBU 742). Also, the canopy has been removed. The conformal hump tank (to store fuel) is also missing. Covers for the engine bay are also removed.

The MiG-29 at right is a K variant of the Indian Naval Air Arm. Notice the IN roundel. Has a smaller IFR probe (compared to the UPG) and this particular bird also has her canopy removed. Serial number is 816.

The MiG-29 at left is a UPG variant of the Indian Air Force.

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 76289?s=20 ---> Indian Navy MiG-29Ks at Adampur Air Force base (Punjab) alongside IAF MIG-29UPGs. Pictures are not recent.

[Rakesh]

^^^ FYI...These pictures were taken by a Redmi Note 5 Pro smartphone by Xiaomi, a Chinese company.

https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_redmi_n ... o-8893.php

[Aditya_V]

Err Why do they publish this Redmi MI phone camera...................

[darshan]

Disappointing to see the security protocols in place.

[Prithwiraj]

Disappointing to see the security protocols in place.

Must be a kid of a senior official or something to get this level of access