Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 22 Jul 2020 11:54

#WATCH Trials of Helicopter-launched Nag Missile (HELINA), now named Dhruvastra anti-tank guided missile in direct and top attack mode. The flight trials were conducted on 15&16 July at ITR Balasore (Odisha). This is done without helicopter.

https://t.co/Jvj6geAGLY

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Jul 2020 12:36

I hope we can integrate with fighters on a later date who can launch it that high altitude against movable ground targets with 25km range, fighter radar with data link guides it to 5-7km from the target and IIR seeker will take over. It will help the IAF in CAS role by taking on 10-15 enemy vehicles from high altitude. Apart from guided bombs.

TushS · Post by **TushS** » 22 Jul 2020 12:53

Raghunathgb wrote:#WATCH Trials of Helicopter-launched Nag Missile (HELINA), now named Dhruvastra anti-tank guided missile in direct and top attack mode. The flight trials were conducted on 15&16 July at ITR Balasore (Odisha). This is done without helicopter.

https://t.co/Jvj6geAGLY

Is that a failed test? Missile seems to be fallen in the water?

nam · Post by **nam** » 22 Jul 2020 13:16

Where else would a missile go in a direct mode test?

basant · Post by **basant** » 22 Jul 2020 18:08

^^^
At least they could have placed an inexpensive boat to show target.

Prithwiraj · Post by **Prithwiraj** » 22 Jul 2020 20:17

Does not look like it covered a long distance. I guess without knowing the objectives of the trial no point guessing just looking at the video

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jul 2020 21:18

Aditya_V wrote:I hope we can integrate with fighters on a later date who can launch it that high altitude against movable ground targets with 25km range, fighter radar with data link guides it to 5-7km from the target and IIR seeker will take over. It will help the IAF in CAS role by taking on 10-15 enemy vehicles from high altitude. Apart from guided bombs.

Don't give ideas and further delay a much-needed weapon now.

Dhruvastra is needed for the IA helicopters yesterday.

basant · Post by **basant** » 22 Jul 2020 21:29

^^^
With the above idea, Dhruvastra would be fine. It'll sabotage the SANT

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 22 Jul 2020 21:52

TushS wrote:
Raghunathgb wrote:#WATCH Trials of Helicopter-launched Nag Missile (HELINA), now named Dhruvastra anti-tank guided missile in direct and top attack mode. The flight trials were conducted on 15&16 July at ITR Balasore (Odisha). This is done without helicopter.

https://t.co/Jvj6geAGLY
Is that a failed test? Missile seems to be fallen in the water?

That's the dummy warhead that fell, whole discussion on twitter, they wouldn't release a failed test video for sure.

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 22 Jul 2020 22:34

I presume thats a test at lower end of the range envelope (0.5 - 7 KM)

Raveen wrote:
TushS wrote:
Is that a failed test? Missile seems to be fallen in the water?

That's the dummy warhead that fell, whole discussion on twitter, they wouldn't release a failed test video for sure.

nam · Post by **nam** » 22 Jul 2020 22:38

basant wrote:^^^
At least they could have placed an inexpensive boat to show target.

The test was for the flight profile, not the seeker. Minimum range direct mode and probably top attack minimum range. Why waste an expensive seeker for a flight profile test?

IA has peculiar minimum range requirements. They were asking for 400mts for cannon ATGM, which Lahat could not meet.

DRDO are planning to carry out more test and then a heli test.

basant · Post by **basant** » 22 Jul 2020 22:52

^^^
Thank you!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 22 Jul 2020 23:16

TEll me a thing, didnt we earlier see HELINA fired from Dhruv/Rudra ? whats different in this case?

basant · Post by **basant** » 23 Jul 2020 00:00

Helina is still under development and firing from platform would be one of the several test points.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Jul 2020 01:06

John wrote:
chetak wrote:IAF Indicates It Does Not Want US Made NASAMS-II Missile System, Prefers Made In India BMD Set Up
NASAM is not being acquired for BMD but rather part of integrated network to protect new Delhi. Why are they confusing things?

This was always a purely political deal being pushed by the Americans. Why this system keeps being referred to as a BMD system in India is a mystery to me. Even its own developers do not claim that it is a BMD system but our media seems determined to make it one.

NASAMS provides no new capability that we cannot get with a layered MRSAM+SPYDER/DRDO QRSAM system. It'll actually be a non-trivial task to integrate it with our other AD systems and get them networked together. Completely pointless and politically motivated procurement that needs to die quickly.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 23 Jul 2020 09:54

I hope, really hope that we don't end up in a situation where the Dhruvastra kills the Helina & the SANT kills the Dhruvastra, in our ongoing search for the "perfect missile". Rather than kill enemy tanks, our missile programs will kill each other.

Forget about Dhruvastra, SANT, Helina or the in-development MANPATGM. Where are the NAG inductions? After a diabolically long testing cycle, it cleared all tests with elan. But the Army is still twiddling its thumbs, while the Chinese wolves are at the LAC.

DRDO's 1st attempt at an ATGM also ended up in the dustbin.

Our ATGM story is going the Arjun way. Pretty sure there are at least 2 lobbies working inside: one for the Israeli maal & one for the Russian maal

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 23 Jul 2020 09:58

There is European lobby also, with PARS & other ATGMs. Lobbies today seem to have so much control that its either import or nothing, not even 50:50

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 23 Jul 2020 10:48

Serious question (and not trying to be disrespectful to anyone) but what's stopping Indian companies from hiring lobbyists? Companies like L&T or Kalyani etc make enough money from their other businesses to afford one or two.

It's quite evident we can't nail down the lobbyists already there. And if the lust for bribes among babus and generals is so strong, why not take them from indian sources? If you can't beat them....

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 23 Jul 2020 11:12

^^^
There is more sir. There are university scholarships, green card lobbying which sometimes money cannot simply buy.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Jul 2020 12:06

Beautifully put it's the Children, family which is taken care by the import lobby. Our babudom having seen the way the things are run in the country and how they themselves behave don't have faith in this country and want thier children to settle abroad. For a person who is over 50, the country where thier children settle is where thier loyally mainly lies in most cases.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 23 Jul 2020 12:23

The biggest issue is the interview rounds in UPSC. Similarly for the defense forces, we have do to away with the selection based promotion which is i think after lieutenant grade. Sorry if it some other grade but will find out. All these interview rounds gives rise to Gharanas in UPSC, defense and even judiciary. This is one reason why many times we find common surnames in all these roles.
W.R.T. MOD and related wings, many times we have the students getting scholarships, jobs in defense affiliated companies or vendors to major defense companies which will help in moving the student visa to H1B. From here the green card application lobby works to move to green card. These can be only managed by US and EU companies.

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 23 Jul 2020 12:33

basant wrote:^^^
At least they could have placed an inexpensive boat to show target.

https://youtu.be/m3AW7_Tu6mw
At the end of this video has clips of both direct attack and top attack mode testing

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 23 Jul 2020 16:35

ramana wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:I hope we can integrate with fighters on a later date who can launch it that high altitude against movable ground targets with 25km range, fighter radar with data link guides it to 5-7km from the target and IIR seeker will take over. It will help the IAF in CAS role by taking on 10-15 enemy vehicles from high altitude. Apart from guided bombs.
Don't give ideas and further delay a much-needed weapon now.

Dhruvastra is needed for the IA helicopters yesterday.

Lol. One sentence speaks volumes about the state of our defence procurement.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Jul 2020 16:45

We also needed this since yesterday, hope it can be launched in TWS mode and the Target aircraft does not know of the inbound missile until its too late.
https://twitter.com/KalitaAbhinav/statu ... 3084500992

#DRDO is working on Astra Passive imaging IR seeker variant which might be ready much before Astra Mk2.

Infrared homing is the basic functionality of a Short Range AAM’s to hunt down its target.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Jul 2020 01:15

Aditya_V wrote:We also needed this since yesterday, hope it can be launched in TWS mode and the Target aircraft does not know of the inbound missile until its too late.
https://twitter.com/KalitaAbhinav/statu ... 3084500992

#DRDO is working on Astra Passive imaging IR seeker variant which might be ready much before Astra Mk2.

Infrared homing is the basic functionality of a Short Range AAM’s to hunt down its target.

TWS is a capability of the radar on the launching aircraft. All our air-superiority fighters have radars with TWS capability (not sure about the older RDM radar on the M2k but all of those are being upgraded anyway).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jul 2020 12:34

Indranil tell me more about the IIR seeker for Astra. Is it based on Akash-S1?

hshukla · Post by **hshukla** » 24 Jul 2020 15:15

kvraghav wrote:^^^
There is more sir. There are university scholarships, green card lobbying which sometimes money cannot simply buy.

One can still buy entry in private universities in US and abroad; these armament companies need to sponsor a department thats all. In our college days there was a common saying that Stanford will take you in if either you were very brilliant or your dad very rich.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Jul 2020 17:27

ramana wrote:Indranil tell me more about the IIR seeker for Astra. Is it based on Akash-S1?

AFAIK there is no IIR based Akash, the 1S version uses the same RF active seeker as Astra.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Jul 2020 23:35

abhik wrote:
ramana wrote:Indranil tell me more about the IIR seeker for Astra. Is it based on Akash-S1?
AFAIK there is no IIR based Akash, the 1S version uses the same RF active seeker as Astra.

Correct. Akash seeker is RF not IIR. So this will be a new development although it might trace its lineage to the Nag's IIR seeker.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jul 2020 02:44

Akash 1S, Akash NG, QRSAM, Astra all share the same Ku band seeker.

The IIR seekers are offshoots of the Nag development. Actually, the seeker is fairly good now. It allows Helina to acquire targets from 7 kms away. The ToT has been completed to VEM and pretty soon you will see quite a few variants coming out pretty soon. There is IR-guided Astra. There are scaling it down for Man Portable Defensive Missile System (MPDMS) which is a Stinger equivalent. The same can be adopted for a heli based ATAM (like Mistral).

And, did you know that a variant of this seeker is used by our Shakti ASAT missile?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jul 2020 02:48

Somebody asked the difference between Dhruvastra vs. Helina. Well the difference is that Dhruvastra uses a jet vane system which can be used for pitch up immediately after launch. Helina could not do this. So it was not capable of top attack when the range was close and the helicopter was low. Dhruvastra can take care of this.

My question is why have a different Nag and a Dhruvastra and Helina. Dhruvastra can take care of all the three. Complete tests in the next two years. Standardize for all services and start induction. And place orders for the LCHs NOW!!!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 25 Jul 2020 06:00

Indranil wrote:Somebody asked the difference between Dhruvastra vs. Helina. Well the difference is that Dhruvastra uses a jet vane system which can be used for pitch up immediately after launch. Helina could not do this. So it was not capable of top attack when the range was close and the helicopter was low. Dhruvastra can take care of this.

My question is why have a different Nag and a Dhruvastra and Helina. Dhruvastra can take care of all the three. Complete tests in the next two years. Standardize for all services and start induction. And place orders for the LCHs NOW!!!

Is this the reason why Helina has not been procured for the poor Rudras which are being deployed in Ladakh with just rocket pods? I assume there is nothing pending as far as integration goes. There will always be something that can be improved, some new feature that can be added. Helina with a min-range limitation for top attack is still much better than having no ATGM inducted. There is no need to wait two more years and then order the Dhruvastra. The Helina itself is a perfectly good missile. Much better than going up against Chinese tanks with rocket pods while we wait for that last little limitation to be removed in a new missile which will take more time.

Same issue with the Nag procurement as well. The program was delayed for years because the IIR sensor had issues with acquiring tanks in 50 degree celsius temps in the desert. Meanwhile we are left scrambling to buy Light tanks to counter the Chinese in Ladakh where the temps are much colder, The Nag would have worked perfectly and a regiment of NAMICAs would have been very very useful.

This whole situation is going to send me into depression soon.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 25 Jul 2020 07:32

Indranil wrote:Well the difference is that Dhruvastra uses a jet vane system which can be used for pitch up...

So, like a thrust-vectoring nozzle, but restricted to a single plane of motion?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Jul 2020 09:07

nachiket wrote:Same issue with the Nag procurement as well. The program was delayed for years because the IIR sensor had issues with acquiring tanks in 50 degree celsius temps in the desert. Meanwhile we are left scrambling to buy Light tanks to counter the Chinese in Ladakh where the temps are much colder, The Nag would have worked perfectly and a regiment of NAMICAs would have been very very useful.

This whole situation is going to send me into depression soon.

Yes, it is a totally confusing and depressing scene.

I have traced the sequence of events wrt Nag in the last few years.

NAG was expected to be inducted by the Army by c. 2011 after conducting final validation trials in the deserts of Rajasthan in July, 2010. During the trials, the missile proved its capability against both moving and stationary targets, covering varying ranges of 500 meters to 2,600 metres. However, in April 2011, it was announced that the induction has been delayed by a year since the Army wanted certain improvements to NAG carrier vehicle, NAMICA. However, it was announced by DRDO in July 2013, just ahead of a fresh round of trials, that the earlier Rajasthan tests in c. 2011 failed because of extreme day time temperatures which heated up the target too thereby the target indistinguishable from the surroundings.

In November 2011, Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) had produced the infrared imaging seekers using the technology developed by DRDO. However in late December 2012, Mr. Avinash Chander (Chief Controller, DRDO) said that problems were faced with regard to seeker in the anti-tank Nag missile and initiatives were taken to overcome it.

At that point of time, DRDL claimed that the missile can hit target up to 4 km in favourable conditions and up to 3 km in adverse conditions. A new seeker was under development that will guarantee 4 Kms all-weather and 4.5 Kms in favourable conditions. In the January 2016 tests at Mahajan ranges, Nag, scored a “bull’s eye” and successfully hit the target 4 km away during a night trial. During the test, the Thermal Target System (TTS) developed by a defence laboratory at Jodhpur was used as target for the missile, which was in the final user configuration. In the earlier tests at Babina ranges in September 2015, two missiles were successfully tested upto 2.8 Kms range. According to scientists of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the January 2016 trial validated the enhanced 4-km range capability of Imaging-Infrared seeker. With the modified seeker achieving requisite range capability, the scientists said the Nag missile was now ready for final, pre-induction user trials.

Director of Defence Research and Development Laboratory, (DRDL) K. Jayaraman said the final user trials would be conducted in different conditions in summer and winter in 2016. The DRDO Magazine , in its November 2016 issue stated that in the final ‘development trials’ on September 28-30, 2016, NAG had hit bull’s eye (target’s turret section or the engine) at the full-range of 4 Kms when fired at the ‘worst time window’ and it was confirmed the Indian Army present on site. After this trial, DRDO announced that the NAG was ready for induction into the Army.

On June 13, 2017 DRDO announced another successful full-range (4 Kms) flight trial of Nag in the Jodhpur desert ranges of Rajasthan for the extreme heat weather day conditions of the desert. Nag was improved and fast-tracked under the mission mode called ‘PROSPINA’ (PROduct Support Product Improvement and induction of NAg), which project lasted three years. On September, 8-9, 2017, DRDO conducted two successful tests and the DRDO release said, “With these two successful flight trials, and the flight test conducted in June in the peak of summer, the complete functionality of NAG ATGM along with the launcher system NAMICA has been established and marked successful completion of development trials of NAG”. On February 28, 2018, DRDO announced that it had successfully tested the Prospina anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) in top-attack mode using an indigenous MWIR seeker. On 26th April 2018, the Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC), chaired by defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman, gave the go-ahead for the acquisition of around 300 Nag third-generation anti-tank guided missiles and 25 tracked carrier vehicles, “Namica”, together worth Rs 524 crore. NAG successfully completed one more round of winter user trials in December, 2018.

During Aero India 2019 (Feb 21-24, 2019), DRDO announced that Nag anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) is finally set to enter production by the end of 2019 after undergoing the final set of summer user trials in May-June, 2019. In July 2019, the Office of the Raksha Mantri (RMO) tweeted, “All missiles met the mission objectives including minimum and maximum ranges, direct attack as well as top attack modes and achieved a direct hit onto the target. NAG ATGM has been developed by DRDO to engage highly fortified enemy tanks in all weather conditions”. This coupled with another tweet by the RMO, “Raksha Mantri Shri @rajnathsingh has congratulated the user evaluation teams from Indian Army and @DRDO_India on NAG’s successful completion of user trials.” confirmed that NAG has been accepted by the Army. Though, I haven't see any positive statement of acceptance from the Army itself, like in the case of, say, Akash.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jul 2020 09:46

The order is yet to be placed by the Army. No emergency procurement funds used for that, apparently.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Jul 2020 11:33

Karan M wrote:The order is yet to be placed by the Army. No emergency procurement funds used for that, apparently.

Truly depressing state of affairs. Indigenous dedicated tank killers that’ll suit the terrain are available but the IA won’t go for it and instead run for emergency purchases of light tanks.

pandyan · Post by **pandyan** » 25 Jul 2020 21:05

Forget about using window shopping money on local products. Tonbo imaging CEO mentioned couple of months back that Army/MoD is yet to pay them for product delivered last year. Due to lack of payments, their company is under severe stress. On top of that, army cancelled Tonbo orders this year. with war looming in the border, I would imagine army would be interested in stockpiling night vision and other equipment.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 25 Jul 2020 22:25

May be Indian companies should export to a shell company overseas so their products can be imported back.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 25 Jul 2020 23:46

TWITTER

@rathorekaran17:

In our armament trials we place overmuch stress on issues that are of marginal imp. For MBT ARJUN ATGM firing through gun has become a make or break issue. Whereas in A-tk engagements gun tube ATGM engagements by tanks will be rare. The KE fired by the gun will be primary mode

So we’ve allowed the marginal player to affect project viability. Similarly for NAG we insist on certain parameters that are rarely required. Lack of that and we reject the system. This all or nothing approach has to change. Few ATGMs with seekers will lock on at extreme ranges

In peak summer temp. Instead of only seeker based ATGMs we should field a mix of guided and Seeker based systems. Both compliment each other.
We should be circumspect about what the TV (ATGM) salesman says. Gotta use our own brains too, else then capability gap with PLA will

Opening up. It is sad to see we are importing even basic ammunition and various wpn sys once the PLA came knocking. Our military industrial complex and the mindset of decision makers needs a reset or reboot. It’s a major security Achilles heel. Decision makers are answerable...!!

https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... 60481?s=19

basant · Post by **basant** » 26 Jul 2020 00:16

^^^
The above view shows the army as simple minded and innocent people who cannot think out of box for years. Let's not be so naive as they are smart and sensible when it comes to imported stuff.