Indian Military Helicopters

basant · Post by **basant** » 23 Jun 2020 18:15

sankum wrote:SP model requiring $3b is not economical which the article is advocating. Better develop NUH version of Dhruv and NIMRH.

I just wanted to point out that Navy gave undertaking for 120 in 1994 a decade before its first flight!

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 23 Jun 2020 18:23

Thata a mistake/ limitation on part of HAL as said by Indranil. Now what is the way forward?

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Jun 2020 18:27

basant wrote:Article by Commodore G Prakash (R) in Financial Express.

For a first-time manufacturer dealing with the differing requirements of the three services, we can’t fault HAL for not having focused on the unique naval requirements in the initial years. Despite the Navy highlighting the fact that good maritime helicopters have to be designed primarily as maritime helicopters, HAL went for the majority requirement and produced a helicopter primarily designed for use on land. Converting this for use at sea was an inherently flawed idea. Similar was the case for an automatic blade fold system. Strong advice from the Navy to consult Westland, which had a well-proven system, was ignored. This, despite the Navy giving a written undertaking in 1992 that it will acquire 120 helicopters. An undertaking, which was given almost ten years before the first naval version flew. How much more can any customer show genuine support?

Timelines for modern aviation R&D is a long one — easily two decades — even for experienced nations. A nation that hadn’t built its own helicopter design to achieve tri-service requirements at the first go and in a “short” amount time is unrealistic. Past is past. Out of it ALH knowledge evolved into ALH MK.3/4, LCH and LUH. India took 30-years to get to this point. Now is the time to not abandon all the hard earned work but instead build further upon it and take it to next level NALH/NLUH/NIMRH. It’s a crucial juncture. Import and India will again lose a few decades.

basant · Post by **basant** » 23 Jun 2020 18:36

^^^
Agreed.

pandyan · Post by **pandyan** » 24 Jun 2020 04:14

good summary of most likely events. Now is the time for hal to step up and address the critical needs of Navy.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jun 2020 04:28

srai wrote:HAL OFFERS NEW SOLUTION FOR NAVAL ALH BLADE FOLDING
KP Sanjeev Kumar (kaypius)
May 28, 2020

Some details on proposed 2-segment 4-blade folding on ALH

How many ship in IN have this size restriction? Looks like a large shipping container (8x8.5x40) in effect.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 14 Jul 2020 22:26

From sir @hvtiaf tweet

ALH with underslung Zu-23 anti-aircraft cannon at the glacier. No other Helios can undertake this mission. Period.

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 14 Jul 2020 23:16

That's a 1 ton payload. (Gun weighs 960 kgs approximately)

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 15 Jul 2020 03:08

So that means the Dhruv can also lift the Kalyani 105MM Gun weighing around 900 KGS.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 15 Jul 2020 04:13

Keep Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd out of Naval helicopter plan, private companies tell govt.

The private sector wants the Centre to bar Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd from a ₹21,000 crore plan to manufacture naval utility helicopters (NUH), saying that the state-owned company has an undue advantage as it has access to government-funded infrastructure and the ability to cross-subsidise the bid through other nominated orders.

The companies were responding to a question posed by the defence ministry in May on allowing HAL in the competition, which was reserved for the private sector as reported by ET. They said the monopoly of the state-owned enterprise needs to be broken and a level playing field is needed for all bidders.

Four Indian companies – Bharat Forge, Tata Aerospace and Defence, Mahindra Defence Systems and Adani Defence – are contending for the Make in India programme to manufacture 111 naval utility helicopters under the strategic partnership (SP) model in collaboration with a foreign technology provider.

As part of a re-evaluation in May, the defence ministry asked the contenders if the programme had export potential and raised the prospect of HAL being given a chance to be part of it.

‘HAL Running at Full Capacity’
Sources have also told ET that a proposal has been oated to give HAL a chance to provide an indigenously developed naval version of the advanced light helicopter by developing a few prototypes for evaluation by the service in a three-year timeframe.

In response to the defence ministry’s queries, it’s learnt that the private sector competitors have pointed out that the only large aerospace company India has developed in over seven decades is HAL as it has been given nominated orders and that healthy competition can only be ensured by encouraging others as well.

Among the responses are suggestions that while HAL will remain a major helicopter manufacturer, a second line is needed in the private sector that can become part of the global supply chain and oer viable products for the export market as well. The responses also pointed out that HAL already has an order book of ₹60,000 crore and is set to get another nominated order worth ₹39,000 crore for light combat aircraft (LCA), besides Kamov KA 226T choppers for the army, asserting that it’s already running at full capacity.

The Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce & Industry (Ficci) earlier wrote to the defence ministry against a “dilution of the strategic partnership model.” The letter said that the private sector has been struggling for orders despite building capacities in line with the Make in India plan and HAL as a competitor will make it a “non level playing field.”

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 15 Jul 2020 20:46

Dudes,
Why are the pvt co.s going into 'Mode - Dhoti Shivers Extremis' ?
And what's this ridiculous talk of 'cross platform subsidy, etc' ?
Its a given that once the Non-Recurrent Costs for an R&D part is recovered through a common platform from an on-going programme, the benefits are obviously passed on to the customers.
So, what's really new in that.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 16 Jul 2020 01:49

India does need at least two large players in the aviation industry. Can't rely solely on HAL. And for that, some hand-holding will be necessary.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Jul 2020 02:31

sankum wrote:Thata a mistake/ limitation on part of HAL as said by Indranil. Now what is the way forward?

don't entirely agree with the "consult westland on the blade fold" bit of advice.

it wasn't all hunky dory and smooth sailing with the seaking bladefold.

when the russians went from KA 25 to the KA 28, the bladefold system became much more simplified and went from working well on the 25 to a much more simplified system on the 28 that continued to work well and also had some additional features.

IIRC, the 28's lower blade had an additional capability where it could be manually used as a strong point by the crew to hoist/lower an engine in case of replacement in the field.

this is the kind of feature set in general that any aerospace designer ought to be thinking about in any product that he/she is involved with.

It is best that intelligent upgrades mean more simplification, better reliability and availability than the previous version that it seeks to replace.

for any PSU, an "upgrade" is oftentimes simply a sanctioned means to gouge the customer out of a sizeable chunk of moolah with little or no tech ROI accuring to the captive customer.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Jul 2020 02:39

ManuJ wrote:India does need at least two large players in the aviation industry. Can't rely solely on HAL. And for that, some hand-holding will be necessary.

BEL has already blundered into the avionics space and they may extend their reach further depending on sustainability.

let's see who else does but it has to be someone with deep pockets of their own and the demonstrated ability to innovate instead of merely and blindly building to print like most PSUs and copy cat private sector guys do.

A few indeed have the additional organic capacity to design and design well too and such organisations will benefit most from any handholding.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jul 2020 02:32

https://twitter.com/PRODefRjsthn/status ... 20800?s=20 ----> Lt Gen Alok Kler, Army Commander, Sapta Shakti Command visited FIREBIRDS Attack Helicopter Squadron in Rajasthan sector & undertook an operational sortie. He commended them for their dedication and professionalism.

https://twitter.com/Aditya_G_Social/sta ... 11846?s=20 ---> 104 Helicopter Sqn still operates Akbars. Note the rare trainer version which does not have the chin mounted gun.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 17 Jul 2020 21:18

Rudras in Ladakh

Indian Army’s Rudra Armed Helos Break Cover In Ladakh

The Indian Army Rudra, the in-service advanced armed version of the HAL Dhruv, briefly broke cover today in Ladakh, confirming the indigenous aircraft’s operational deployment amidst border tensions to the high altitude theatre it was always designed for. An Army Aviation Corps Rudra was briefly seen in footage from a combat demonstration today in Stakna for visiting Indian defence minister Rajnath Singh
...
...
This isn’t the first time Rudras have been deployed to Ladakh, but today was the first time they were visible amidst tensions between India and China that have simmered since early May.
...
...
Weaponisation of the Rudra, ironically, remains mired in red tape. While the Rudras still don’t have operational anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) and air-to-air missiles (the MBDA Mistral), more airframes were contracted in February last year to receive Thales 2.75-inch (70-mm) 12-tube rocket launchers. Like with earlier airframes, the Thales kit includes rocket launchers as well as fire control capability and the T100 sighting system.
....

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 17 Jul 2020 21:24

This is such a sad commentary on Rudra's. They will go to war with rockets, guns, aa missiles (good against UAVs) but not with ATGM, that could have done wonders against chicom soft and hard targets. Perhaps they could have been decisive, but alas, it is not to be. We have SANT but not good enough (i.e. plan B is not good) and Plan A (foreign maal) we are not buying.

Just buying them will be not be enough. Training with these rounds, particularly at 15,000 feet in mountainous region will take time. They have to overcome multiple vulnerabilities - altitude, SAMS, adulating terrain, ground fire etc.

My recommendation - get a small set of off shore missile (spike?) satisfy whoever needs to be satisfied (plan A guys), and then get more home grown NAGS/SANTs. We need them as yesterday.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 17 Jul 2020 22:04

Images or it didn't happen

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 17 Jul 2020 23:20

agupta wrote:
fanne wrote:This is such a sad commentary on Rudra's. They will go to war with rockets, guns, aa missiles (good against UAVs) but not with ATGM, that could have done wonders against chicom soft and hard targets.
Perhaps another option... Plan C. Go big on APKWS-2 guided rocket systems - license manufacturing etc. That buys the IA/IAF room to get Helina/SANT fully operational and debugged... and the 70mm rockets prob. pack enough punch to stop anything the ChiComs can throw at least until the light tank category. Couple that with increased acquisition and distribution of LTDs. Side benefit ... if some sensor tech gets absorbed, adds to options for later variants of Guided Pinaka.

That might at least solve the "defensive posture" requirements for countering any rapid moves ?

I am all for indigenous product (in fact, they are perhaps only way forward). Having said that, is Helina/sant and NAG itself is in perpetual Indian test cycle. Very difficult to say it is due to the product being not up to mark or a general way to get 'imported' maal. Be as it may, we should get some limited Spike ER for the time being, it has three very endearing characteristic, it is tested/tried, it cheap and the best it is IMPORTED. We should keep on pushing for HELINA/SANT. For some 200 LCH+RUDRA, we will need a lot of ATGM. In a war, we would be using these against all kinds of targets - Tanks, IFV, 4*4, SAM sites, bukers, any and all kinds of enemy vehicles. Having many of it and having it cheap will help a lot - hence HElina + Sant later on.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 17 Jul 2020 23:22

A LCH in place of that Rudra would have been that much more effective. And if not for 'unforeseen' circumstances, some 15-30 of it would have been in service by now.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 18 Jul 2020 01:53

If there is a delay in Helina, it should in no way impact the main product itself. We can always find and integrate Hellfire / brimstone / Pars 3LR / Spike ER from LCH/Dhruv based assets.

The objection itself is for the wrong reason. It should be called out.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Jul 2020 06:14

At the last air show, a chappie at the DRDO chalet told me when asked what ATGM would be on the Rudra and LCH said that the desi m kept missing the target. He was at a desert trial if If I remember right. There must be cut- off dates for indigenous projects,delays which would impact on the fighting capability of the services. The errant DPSUs have too much clout with the MOD
continuously working on systems which never arrive like the Kaveri, spending huge amounts in the process. Plan B's have to be factored in when it becomes clear that projects are running way behind time. We are in a position today where it's a buyer's market and we can pick up what's best for the services from srveral countries if the DPSU's fail. Why we haven't thought of mating the Ru Ataka-V ATGM to the Rudra/ LCH at least as an interim ATGM
for a batch of Rudras/ LCHs until HELINA whatever comes along beats me. This crisis with the PRC is a prime example of our troops being shortchanged.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 18 Jul 2020 07:00

Helina piercing the target with precision. The user trials are supposed to be completed this year. There is a huge market awaiting Helina, must not miss the chance to offer it to the Russians. Our friends deserve such precision stuff.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jul 2020 10:36

We need it first.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 18 Jul 2020 11:27

agupta wrote:
....Respected HAL employees say "design & development" of the LCH platform i.e., the helicopter is complete. All good here. Even if some weapon systems (primary?) are stuck (somewhere unknown?) lets say we should move forward

But delivering a product is more than D&D. You have to add on Manufacturing, Commercial, Sustainment (Service O&M). All of the latter is still HALs responsibility.....

IAF chief - a vocal indigenization proponent indicates gaps in, IIRC, Service aspects. HVT says "DPP milestones". We see manufacturing facilities being inaugurated. So scale-up infrastructure is done. 10+ LSPs produced... so we can guess Manufacture capability is OK too. All indications are the customers are ready and waiting.

OK so we're left with Commercial and Sustainment as the best guesses as to where things are stuck. If HAL is shifting PBL prices, or has jacked up prices now and is holding fast to it, or is unwilling to make Serviceability rates or costs guarantees it once committed to... whose "objection" is responsible ?

We have a lot of people doing the Aswathama bit - comment on one bit without explicitly saying where the issues are. This lack of transparency is THE biggest tragedy of our procurement system... nothing can be fixed, not even accountability if there is no transparency and stuff is litigated via newspaper leaks or Twitter wars

As far as the LCH is concerned, I can state only the following, with the underlying restriction that this is an open forum-

-The Design & Development of the LCH was completed mid last year. P-E-R-I-O-D. No hidden conditions,etc here.
- The Price Negotiations took too long to finalise, which was for reasons, other than what you speculate in your post.
- Certain systems, including some weapons are not necessarily pre-defined and may fall under customer defined category.
- Personal opinion - the LCH is still the only attack / combat helicopter capable (and demonstrated) ops including landing on the Glacier. We should have (and could have realistically), had a larger number of LCHs ready for deployment as of today, than what we actually have.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 18 Jul 2020 11:33

I am a bit lost in the Helina saga. Can someone plz explain if:

1) The missile isn't ready yet?
2) The missile is ready but its going through the usual hot & high, medium & low infinite test cycle that seem reserved only for indigenous products?
3) Missile is ready but integration with LCH/Rudra is taking forever?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 18 Jul 2020 14:41

Hari Nair wrote: still the only attack / combat helicopter capable (and demonstrated) ops including landing on the Glacier. We should have (and could have realistically), had a larger number of LCHs ready for deployment as of today, than what we actually have.

And yet, lch orders or LCA orders are not forthcoming. Just don't get it. Somewhere between PMO to services, something or lots of things are askew..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jul 2020 07:48

Hari Nair,
Tell me about the medium helicopter status.
Thanks for the LCH information.
I believe 15 units are ready with HAL.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Jul 2020 08:20

agupta wrote:
Hari Nair wrote:
As far as the LCH is concerned, I can state only the following, with the underlying restriction that this is an open forum-

-The Design & Development of the LCH was completed mid last year. P-E-R-I-O-D. No hidden conditions,etc here.
- The Price Negotiations took too long to finalise, which was for reasons, other than what you speculate in your post.
- Certain systems, including some weapons are not necessarily pre-defined and may fall under customer defined category.
- Personal opinion - the LCH is still the only attack / combat helicopter capable (and demonstrated) ops including landing on the Glacier. We should have (and could have realistically), had a larger number of LCHs ready for deployment as of today, than what we actually have.
Thank you sir. I appreciate the balance you have to strike. Even asking felt "wrongish".... so I won't ask you specifically about manufacturing being as OK as design and development

I agree fully - its tragic by the simplest definition of the word.

So best we can surmise...reasons for delay that are reliably sourced:
1. Pricing negotiation duration
2. Serviceability issues being addressed
3. "DPP Milestones to be completed" (whatever the heck that means if it means something different from #1)

Covid-19 cash crunch can be a catch all issue in July 2020.

Rest is all speculation - innocent or 5-cent driven social media ops

What serviceability issues Guptaji?
I though these come when heptr has been in service ..

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 20 Jul 2020 19:13

ramana wrote:..Tell me about the medium helicopter status.

The Medium helicopter is in the advanced design stage.
The benefit of LCH and LUH programmes is that it has enabled a steep hands-on learning curve for the design team, in all disciplines.
These benefits are being passed on to the medium helicopter design.
Another point - given the fact that its a heavier weight class, the rotors are more conventional and unlike the high-hinge/ equivalent offset 'FEL Rotor' of the LCH and ALH which gives it extreme agility and maneuverability. The medium helicopter rotor design is more conservative, which is suited for the heavier weight class. In any case, no body expects a Mi-17 class helicopter to go into snap manoeuvres, make it stand on its tail or do stuff which the LCH and ALH are capable.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Jul 2020 19:27

Hari Nair wrote:
ramana wrote:..Tell me about the medium helicopter status.
The Medium helicopter is in the advanced design stage.
The benefit of LCH and LUH programmes is that it has enabled a steep hands-on learning curve for the design team, in all disciplines.
These benefits are being passed on to the medium helicopter design.
Another point - given the fact that its a heavier weight class, the rotors are more conventional and unlike the high-hinge/ equivalent offset 'FEL Rotor' of the LCH and ALH which gives it extreme agility and maneuverability. The medium helicopter rotor design is more conservative, which is suited for the heavier weight class. In any case, no body expects a Mi-17 class helicopter to go into snap manoeuvres, make it stand on its tail or do stuff which the LCH and ALH are capable.

There has been talk about a heavy attack helicopter too from HAL - how serious is that and also I'd assume it will use the same gear/rotor/blades/engines as the IMRH?

basant · Post by **basant** » 20 Jul 2020 19:39

ks_sachin wrote:What serviceability issues Guptaji?
I though these come when heptr has been in service ..

Did Apache negotiations also take as much time as LCH is taking?

mody · Post by **mody** » 20 Jul 2020 21:01

https://youtu.be/_ea3VpDg2WM

As per this video, Nag has completed all trials. Helina might need a few more tests. Don't know what production issues are being talked about at the end of video.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 20 Jul 2020 21:04

Hari Nair wrote:
ramana wrote:..Tell me about the medium helicopter status.
The Medium helicopter is in the advanced design stage.
The benefit of LCH and LUH programmes is that it has enabled a steep hands-on learning curve for the design team, in all disciplines.
These benefits are being passed on to the medium helicopter design.
Another point - given the fact that its a heavier weight class, the rotors are more conventional and unlike the high-hinge/ equivalent offset 'FEL Rotor' of the LCH and ALH which gives it extreme agility and maneuverability. The medium helicopter rotor design is more conservative, which is suited for the heavier weight class. In any case, no body expects a Mi-17 class helicopter to go into snap manoeuvres, make it stand on its tail or do stuff which the LCH and ALH are capable.

Sir with due respect - Can I muse on the strategic aspect -

We have in medium category - ALH (perhaps the best in its class in the world), LCH - Could prove itself best
In light category - LUH - in testing
In Naval medium category - NUH - Navy not very happy
Medium Category for IA/IAF - In Dev, a replacement for perhaps MI-17 (which has proved to be very rugged and useful and cheap?)
Medium Category for Navy -No where in picture, perhaps the one developed above can be used - Needed in some 100 number in spite of Romeos
Heavy - None (perhaps we have enough Mi-26 and Chinooks). More can certainly help to move men and material in our border areas cheaply compared to slung on cheetah/chetak/dhruvs/Mi-17
Heavy Combat Helicopter - None (Except for imported Apaches, but we can definitely need more of similar capability)

If you look at this, HAL should be really burning midnight oil on Navy needs both at the light and medium level. There is scope of some 100-200 birds. Second priority then would be the medium bird, but not to replace Mi-17 perhaps (why if it fulfills the need very well, is cheap and available in any number that we desire) - but to derive the Navy version of it, augment Romeos with homegrown/imported Naval systems and then also develop a bad ass Advance Medium Attack helicopters - focus on survivability, go in harms way, can take heavy punishment, yet dish out pain and come back. Will be nice as CAS bird (like Apaches) - We may need some 100-200 of these and Apaches being costly, cannot be imported in large numbers. Till then ALAH will soldier on and later compliment AMAH.

basant · Post by **basant** » 20 Jul 2020 21:18

mody wrote:https://youtu.be/_ea3VpDg2WM

As per this video, Nag has completed all trials. Helina might need a few more tests. Don't know what production issues are being talked about at the end of video.

Should you read Wiki, you'd be surprised how many times the trials were successfully completed! Goal posts and milestones seem to be on mobile platforms!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jul 2020 21:07

HAL wont burn daylight or midnight oil unless directed by MoDP. Its a DPSU.
And MoDP wont direct anything unless MoD does.
And that will happen.
To me the NUH and IMH are more pressing then an Apache clone as these can be bought faster and the need is limited.
IMH will fullfill many roles if the repquirmeents are set early.
Indian economy is still at a stage can afford single service helicopters no matter.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Jul 2020 03:18

agupta wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: And yet, lch orders or LCA orders are not forthcoming. Just don't get it. Somewhere between PMO to services, something or lots of things are askew..
Did you not read the rest of the post? Nair-sir explicitly said "Price Negotiations" took too long.

Of course the 50-cent brigade will immediately start blaming the Services...regularly scheduled programming

Who are you accusing of being part of the "50-cent brigade" here? This was a name reserved for paid CCP drones who showed up in the China threads. Are you insinuating that Defense PSU's in India are employing people to post on BRF and blame the services or whatever?

Lay off the ad-hominems before you get banned. I have already been lenient by not giving you a formal warning.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 30 Jul 2020 04:24

https://ibb.co/PGX602k

ICG’s ALH MK.3

https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... 10115?s=21

How far these beauties have come from those early MK.1 days, they look thoroughly mature products now, dare I even say TFTA-esque?

32 of these beasts are on their way starting this year, am eagerly awaiting the first images of the IN’s MK.3s and hope the navy’s new chapter with the ALH will clear all the lingering doubts and concerns created 15++ years ago with early MK.1 LSP/prototypes.

It’s 2020 and not even an RFP has gone out for NUH, we all know that this whole process from RFP to trails to technical evaluation to cost negation to delivery is a decade plus worth of work and that is without factoring in political changes (general elections), that this is an entirely untested route (DPP-2016 SPM) and the usual MoD file volleyball.

Give HAL a firm commitment or at least say that if they deliver they will get the contract for NUH. They can deliver a prototype within 2 years, 2-3 years for validation/testing and they can be producing these birds from the middle of this decade not well past 2030 as the SPM route would seem to deliver.

It baffles me the Navy is taking such a handsoff approach to all this, it’s not like the Chetak fleet is not on its last legs. I can’t think of another country that would be looking to import a utility helicopter if they had the ALH already matured. Work in the ALH, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water

At the very least I would like to see the ALH MK.3 replace all the ICG’s Chetaks, I hope they have enough scope to take these kind of decisions without input from the navy

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 30 Jul 2020 12:27

basant wrote:
mody wrote:https://youtu.be/_ea3VpDg2WM

As per this video, Nag has completed all trials. Helina might need a few more tests. Don't know what production issues are being talked about at the end of video.
Should you read Wiki, you'd be surprised how many times the trials were successfully completed! Goal posts and milestones seem to be on mobile platforms!

actually @Hari Nair can shed some light on this aspect of goal posts and milestones being shifted ( mobile plafforms)??

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Jul 2020 12:53

We're told that the LCA hasn't completed gun firing tests ,yet the bird has been inducted into service.Why not the same with the LCH? Like the MK-1 LCA,MK-1 LCHs should be inducted,adding the ATGM capability when the missile is ready or find a foreign one for the interim.There are many from both east and west that could fit the LCH.100 LCHs at a cost of just 20M unit cost ,amount to what we've paid for just 20 Apaches,22 for $2.1B!' The Ru MI-28NH attack helo similar to the Apache costs even less,just $17M. There is no reason why LCHs in bulk should not be ordered if we can waste so much money on a few Apaches.