MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

[pankajs]

Decoding India's Fighter Aircraft Plan With Angad Singh

[Rakesh]

Boeing Says India And Israel Are The Focus For Future Advanced F-15 Eagle Sales
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... agle-sales
15 July 2020

Boeing is also eyeing India as another potential customer for its slowly-evolving 144-fighter jet requirement. Kumar said the firm was in the process of requesting a marketing license from the U.S Government to start discussions with India, adding that he is not sure if the F-15 is “in the sweet spot” for the requirement. India is looking at solutions from a range of manufacturers from the around world, including Boeing's own F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

[Rakesh]

LIVEFIST talks to Boeing's India Fighter Programs Head

[Cain Marko]

Boeing Says India And Israel Are The Focus For Future Advanced F-15 Eagle Sales
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... agle-sales
15 July 2020

Boeing is also eyeing India as another potential customer for its slowly-evolving 144-fighter jet requirement. Kumar said the firm was in the process of requesting a marketing license from the U.S Government to start discussions with India, adding that he is not sure if the F-15 is “in the sweet spot” for the requirement. India is looking at solutions from a range of manufacturers from the around world, including Boeing's own F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

Does anyone know the exact specs of the F-15EX? In terms of empty weight, thrust, payload, internal fuel, sensors etc.? Would be interesting to compare with the others, esp. the Shornet and Rafale. IIRC the F15C was just about the same weight of the Shornet; if the latest version can pull out similar TWR, it could well be considered MRCA class (lighter than MKI @ 18.4 tons for sure). What about integration of Meteor with US platforms? If they can do it on LM's F35, would it be equally doable on Boeing's platforms. Sensorwise, I'm sure it is no less.

[brar_w]

The F-15EX (E derived) and the F-15C are miles apart in terms of specifications and attributes. The former is a twin seater, has a payload of more than 13,000 Kg and a 20,000 hr airframe life from the factory.

For the F-15EX specs, you can begin at the F-15E and look at the F-15 SA as a baseline that builds upon the standard E that the USAF operates. As standard it includes the General Electric F110-129. FBW and additional integration added 2 additional stores on the aircraft which are not currently active on the F-15 E and pre F-15 SA variants. The AN/APG-63(V)3 AESA of the SA and pre SA AESA equipped aircraft (like the SG) is replaced by the AN/APG-82, and the ADCP mission computer comes in (it is the fastest fighter mission computer in the world currently flying). Out goes the AESA based digital EW suite and in comes the GaN AESA based EPAWSS. Tiger Eyes IRST is replaced by the more modern IRST (Legion Pod) and I believe the next gen JHMCS is also included in the advanced Eagle family along with the wide HUD and a wide-area touch based cockpit display system.

It is really not in the class of the SH, Rafale, F-16 or MiG-29. Perhaps best to compare it to the SU-35 from what is on offer as part of the MRCA.

[Manish_Sharma]

Boeing Says India And Israel Are The Focus For Future Advanced F-15 Eagle Sales
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... agle-sales
15 July 2020

Does anyone know the exact specs of the F-15EX? In terms of empty weight, thrust, payload, internal fuel, sensors etc.?

Payload is 13.5 tons iirc, Airframe has 20,000 hours of life. Engines are also very durable not like MKI conking out at 700 hrs.

So payload is phenomenal MKI having 8 ton this EX can haul 5.5 tons more.

[Cain Marko]

Anything in terms of airframe weight and twr? The reason I ask this is because it might very well be a criterion for IAF's choice considering it's need for high performance in hot and high conditions.

Iirc there were reports that this was the reason why the American bids failed the tech parameters of the original contest.

How does it compare with the shornet in this regard?

[brar_w]

You can see the baseline F-15E specs and extrapolate from there. Weight and TWR will be mission specific. Technically those "FAST packs" are removable and you loose some fuel and weapons stations but you would become somewhat of a hot rod in that configuration particularly with lighter A2A loads. But the main advantage will be in hauling a large payload far and still having the power to push through into supersonic flight to extend strike weapon range. That and the completely upgraded innards including the new AESA in the family, a completely new mission computer, new IR sensors, and a next generation cockpit.

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets ... ike-eagle/

[Cain Marko]

Does anyone know the exact specs of the F-15EX? In terms of empty weight, thrust, payload, internal fuel, sensors etc.?

Payload is 13.5 tons iirc, Airframe has 20,000 hours of life. Engines are also very durable not like MKI conking out at 700 hrs.

So payload is phenomenal MKI having 8 ton this EX can haul 5.5 tons more.

Yes. Thrust to weight ratio should also be nice with > mki sized engines but much lighter body.

Any news for that 700 hour engine life on the mki? I thought the Saturn engines and mki up times are doing nicely of late?

[nachiket]

Boeing Says India And Israel Are The Focus For Future Advanced F-15 Eagle Sales
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... agle-sales
15 July 2020

Boeing knows 100% that the F-15EX is a non-starter for the MRCA. No government can justify spending this much on a completely new fighter type after just buying 2 squadrons of Rafales. Even if they could somehow magically conjure up the money for this (which is impossible but let's assume they do), they would be taken to the cleaners in Parliament by the opposition with every kind of allegation thrown around.

I know the folks at Boeing are not stupid enough to actually believe a sale of the F-15 to India can happen, especially looking at the fiasco that was the first MRCA contest. They are probably using this as an opportunity to create a buzz for their product and perhaps help them in sales elsewhere.

[Rakesh]

Is there money for even two more Rafale squadrons? I doubt it.

[Kartik]

While the F-15EX will be tempting as a cutting edge 4.5th gen fighter with enviable range, payload and avionics, the facts are these:

-The F-15EX is a massive fighter. Cost per flying hour will be among the highest, among the MRCA contenders.
-It overlaps with the Su-30MKI as another heavy fighter. With 270 MKIs operational, the IAF is already top heavy and spends a large amount flying and maintaining them.
-There is no infrastructure setup, no training, no maintenance experience with the F-15 type. So extrapolating USAF costs for the F-15EX to an export customer that hasn't been a F-15 user will be wrong.
-Since the IAF is no closer to finalizing it's MRFA RFP, there is still a long way to go with this tender. Meanwhile, we've already spent a fortune on ISE and base infrastructure for supporting at least 4 Rafale squadrons. Ergo, the best option in the shorter term is to order at the very least 2 more squadrons of Rafale so that the IAF and MoD can go on playing with MRFA till 2025 or whenever

[VinodTK]

Is there money for even two more Rafale squadrons? I doubt it.

Money is not the issue, the problem is in prioratization throughout history India never focused on defense requirements.

How can a country claim to be $2.9 trillion economy and not have a 3% defense budget!

If you cannot protect/save the country what is the point of having $5 trillion or $20 trillion economy!

[brar_w]

Boeing knows 100% that the F-15EX is a non-starter for the MRCA. No government can justify spending this much on a completely new fighter..

Boeing has really nothing to lose by offering both types (they still have the F-18 in play) and since the current USAF order (and likely IDF order) secures their production till early 2030's they can continue to market it and have it on offer alongside the smaller Super Hornet. We see Rafale and Typhoon and even Gripen compete in competitions where the buyers have clearly stated their preference for a 5GFA so one can deduce that the incremental cost of isn't much of a deterrent for these OEMs given the product maturity and assured production. So the bar for them to offer something is probably pretty low.

[Philip]

I'd prefer to save money on the MMRCA 2.0,buy the cheapest bird that meets stds.,most likely the MIG-35, giving us enough moolah for one more Rafale sqd. and buy 2 sqds. Of SU-57s later on.Scrap the LCA Mk-2, TE LCA, build/ buy only Mk 1-A/B/Cs whatever,and use the huge money saved for the AMCA. In the meantime upgrade all MKIs,or at least 200 of them to SS std.,ablf to carry BMoos,BMos- NG and any LR BVR AAM from both east or west. This way we'll have at least one 5th-gen bird in IAF colours in the latter half of the 22nd. century. I think Egypt's 35s are coming in at only $40+M a pop. Hard bargaining with the Rus may bring the price down esp. It s other needs from Ru in a package deal.

We need numbers nos to match the Sino- Pak jv. right now.Unfortunately the LCA is under performing in initial avatar and the HOI hasn't opened up an extra prod. line with the pvt. sector which it should've done.We are at the mercy of HAL and can only pray to all the Gods in the universe for HAL to pull off a miracle with the LCA.

[Vips]

Give more money to Russians (Buy MIG35, Buy SU57, Upgrade SU30) only for the Russians turn down our request to expedite the supply of S400. Remember the first S400 was supposed to be delivered in Dec 2020 which was unilaterally moved by Russia to a year later (Dec 2021). The Russians have now refused to supply the S400 in Dec 2020 (which was the original delivery date) even when a special request was made by Rajnath Singh during his recent visit.

By what stretch of imagination are you calling the SU57 a fifth generation bird? It can neither supercruise nor is it stealthy. It is just a weirdly shaped and glorified iteration of the SU27 family.

[Manish_P]

...
By what stretch of imagination are you calling the SU57 a fifth generation bird? It can neither supercruise nor is it stealthy. It is just a weirdly shaped and
glorified iteration of the SU27 family.

Partially agree on the supercruise (clearly defined, though altitude would be a parameter) / stealthy (factor of range, OPFOR radar capabilities etc etc).. disagree on the shape being 'weirdly' .. it's a lovely shape. But then i suppose beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder..

[brar_w]

Best to wait for the SU-57 to enter serial production and for the first batch of aircraft to be rolled out. It is still very much a WIP.

[Manish_P]

^ That's about exactly what the IAF/GOI did..

[abhik]

Is there money for even two more Rafale squadrons? I doubt it.

Money is not the issue, the problem is in prioratization throughout history India never focused on defense requirements.

How can a country claim to be $2.9 trillion economy and not have a 3% defense budget!

If you cannot protect/save the country what is the point of having $5 trillion or $20 trillion economy!

We did have a 3%+ defence budget from post 1962 upto start of 1990's, interestingly we appear to have reduced spending as we saw our economy grow post liberalisation. 3% defence budget would mean mean a doubling of capex budget! - and here we are trying to rub our 2 annas together just for a couple more squadrons of Rafales, when we probably need 16-20 squadrons over the next 10-12 years.

[Haridas]

Does anyone know the exact specs of the F-15EX? In terms of empty weight, thrust, payload, internal fuel, sensors etc.?

Payload is 13.5 tons iirc, Airframe has 20,000 hours of life. Engines are also very durable not like MKI conking out at 700 hrs.

So payload is phenomenal MKI having 8 ton this EX can haul 5.5 tons more.

After a point payload mass has diminishing rate of return. What IAF tactics demands more than 16 x 1000 lb bombs?, this in time period where world over with greater precision delivery 500 lb is std payload moving towards 250 kg.

India faces defended airspace, so old style dumb bomb interdiction is for old school fools only. SAAW and SPICE in how IAF can do the needed SEAD and interdiction or hold back suprise attack on undefended sector/front.

I request more pragmatic assessment.

[Manish_Sharma]

^Thanks for explaining.
_/\_

[brar_w]

Payload isn't just about the weight of munitions you carry. It is also about the number of stations you have, the combination of A2A and A2G weapons you can carry, the fuel you possess (and can add externally) and the external targeting and recon sensors you can mount in dedicated sensor mounting stations. The opening up of two additional weapon hardpoints on the F-15 EX (and the QA and SA variants as well) means it can carry even more fuel without trading weapons for it. So internal fuel, plus CFT's plus EFT's while opening up 2 additional hardpoints. Excellent flexibility considering that it can carry any dual combination of LANTIRN, SNIPER+TigerEyesIRST, and the AESA SAR pod without sacrificing weapons. That's an advantage over smaller fighters like the F-16 or F-18.

[Cain Marko]

So MKK doesn't have TVC / canards?

No canards, no tvc. Not the same engines. No pesa. Less payload. Bvr and wvr, its not the same. .

The 35 is one step away from the mki: apart from what Karan and Rakesh said,
3d tvc, powerful engines, no canards, lighter frame, higher internal fuel, eft capacity, greater payload.

To add to this list of differences, and in light of the current conversation on air refuellers, it should be noted that MKI is capable of buddy refueling, don't believe the mkk had this capability.

All in all, these will serve IAF well in a pinch when the tempo increases

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/128 ... 32608?s=20 ---> HEADS UP: Air Marshal Raghu Nambiar's most detailed interview goes up 6pm. Every Rafale Q: politics, IAF enhancements, comparisons with China's J-20, why India's next foreign fighter contest is a pipe dream -- and why his heart is most set on LCA Mk.2.

[Aditya_V]

I didnt understand his logic he said something 90 rafale was equal 114 F16 or Gripen.

[ramana]

I didnt understand his logic he said something 90 rafale was equal 114 F16 or Gripen.

Request. Can you please find the exact quote?

Thanks in advance.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/Chethan4you/status/ ... 34849?s=20 ---> SAAB has pitched for a complete Transfer of Technology (TOT) and local production of its Gripen fighter jet at “half” the cost of French alternative Rafale. When Saab can do everything what Rafale can do at half the price, then why not Saab Gripen @hvtiaf Sir?

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12894 ... 78594?s=20 ---> I don't know if any ToT can come anywhere near what kind of IPR, knowledge, indigenous capability and future India has created with Tejas. The future of fixed-wing in India belongs to Tejas and it's single/twin-engine variants.

[Vips]

This is a last ditch attempt by SAAB to sabotage the Tejas MWF. It knows if and when MWF flies it will face tough competition for all export orders.

Everything that Gripen has is sourced from out of Sweden (Armaments and Engine). Sweden/SAAB cannot offer any TOT on it and since India has acquired the expertise to design aircraft the only worthwhile thing that SAAB has (of its own) in the Gripen program is the Electronic warfare suite. Why would it offer TOT to India on it?

[Rakesh]

All the OEMs are offering ToT, but Saab is the only one most vocal about it and providing dis-information (i.e. full 100% ToT).

Saab believes it can pull it off, because ToT is a very mis-understood term among India's politicians. Till today, RaGa claims that Dassault was going to give ToT on Rafale and HAL was going to build Rafales. RaGa states that by giving the contract to Anil Ambani's DRAL, Prime Minister Modi cheated HAL employees out of a job. Very few, if any, know what ToT actually has done for India over the decades. And what ToT is actually present in the Rafale deal and what ToT will be present if the MMRCA deal reaches fruition.

Even the ones on BRF arguing for an American fighter, were extolling the virtues of ToT. But just like President Trump's recent Axios interview with Jonathan Swan, if you ask follow up questions...their sales pitch falls down like a deck of cards.

There has never been ToT (Transfer of Technology) to India and neither will there be ToT to India in the future. There HAS, IS and WILL only be ToP (Transfer of Production)...also known colloquially on BRF as screwdrivergiri.

[k prasad]

The sleight-of-hand with ToT is that it's called ToT. No clarification on what "Technology" means in this context.

What we need in order to design our own systems and gain competency for our indigenous projects is design technology. What alloy is used, Why was it chosen over other options, what is the chemical makeup of it, and most importantly, how is it made? even if we know how the alloy is made, then there's questions like, what process would you use to manufacture a high-tensile strength 0.64 m single-crystal compressor blade that can retain shape at 1700 K and 30000 rpms and X atm pressure?

No one will ever give us the design technology and science, unless they are absolutely forced to, and even then, will fight and obfuscate every step of the way. Instead, what we get it more Transfer of Manufacturing technology, where we are taught HOW to manufacture that specific component and assemble it into the system. i.e., if we need to change something, we potentially can. That doesn't give us end-to-end ability from design to assembly, except of say, smaller components such as nuts and bolts and things. Which is why you see HAL, despite decades of "ToT", continuing to require CKDs. ToT as it exists today is what'll allow us to do our own work on integrating the BrahMos and Astra onto the MKI. But it doesnt allow us to change the design on our own because we aren't transferred the design knowledge.

It's possible to figure out a little bit of it through reverse engineering and stuff, and some more through our own indigenous design work, much like how generic drug makers analyze a patented drug's molecule but need to manufacture it with a different process. But the risk that something will go wrong, or the component is not as high quality is a big one that will remain.

[Aditya_V]

Whenever you do something first it will be costlier and more prone to some errors. There is something called learning curve, it is not that key people in India do not understand it. It is just not personally beneficial to any of them. Expecting jet engines without adequate budgets, flying test beds, wind tunnels, turbines parts manufacturers, industries developing the Titanium, high grade metal components is a national failure.

It is easy to blame just GTRE but national priorities are different. Unfortunately we have become a nation of Shakuni's who want to trick our way rather than work our way. Nobody is going to part with key technology unless we work and get it and give it the proper facilities and gestation time. I see too many posters thinking let's do this deal we will get jet engine manufacturing etc, it will not happen. It requires to plan proper deals, factories and goes against an entire army of commission making people within the country.

[Aditya_V]

I didnt understand his logic he said something 90 rafale was equal 114 F16 or Gripen.

Request. Can you please find the exact quote?

Thanks in advance.

It is in the interview of AM Nambiar by Shiv Aroor. He mentions this.

[Khalsa]

I didnt understand his logic he said something 90 rafale was equal 114 F16 or Gripen.

Request. Can you please find the exact quote?

Thanks in advance.

The exact quote is at 33:21

https://youtu.be/oJZjMfYGnGM?t=1971

His whole interview is GOLD Ramana

[Rakesh]

Request. Can you please find the exact quote?

Thanks in advance.

The exact quote is at 33:21

https://youtu.be/oJZjMfYGnGM?t=1971

His whole interview is GOLD Ramana

If his numbers are true (and I have no reason to doubt it), Air HQ is likely building the case for additional Rafales.

The AM states that if 90 additional Rafales are bought, it will bring the number to 126 (36 + 90), which is the original MMRCA contest. If additional 54 are bought, it will bring the numbers to 90 (or 5 squadrons). Either number requires significant investment. Now the Navy has reduced the order number for the carrier borne fighter from 57 to 36. If the Navy gets in on the order, the MoD could do a joint order of 54 (Air Force) + 36 (Navy) = 90 aircraft.

But putting aside the numbers, it is an interesting viewpoint by the Air Marshal. The IAF does not want either aircraft ---> F-16 or Gripen. The IAF wants additional Rafales. During the SE contest, Gripen was the choice. F-16 was never the choice.

Air HQ is also not interested in investing in infrastructure for another phoren 4th generation combat aircraft. What is the point?

[VKumar]

One squadron of Rafale every year till the MCA is available

[Khalsa]

The exact quote is at 33:21

https://youtu.be/oJZjMfYGnGM?t=1971

His whole interview is GOLD Ramana

If his numbers are true (and I have no reason to doubt it), Air HQ is likely building the case for additional Rafales.

The AM states that if 90 additional Rafales are bought, it will bring the number to 126 (36 + 90), which is the original MMRCA contest. If additional 54 are bought, it will bring the numbers to 90 (or 5 squadrons). Either number requires significant investment. Now the Navy has reduced the order number for the carrier borne fighter from 57 to 36. If the Navy gets in on the order, the MoD could do a joint order of 54 (Air Force) + 36 (Navy) = 90 aircraft.

But putting aside the numbers, it is an interesting viewpoint by the Air Marshal. The IAF does not want either aircraft ---> F-16 or Gripen. The IAF wants additional Rafales. During the SE contest, Gripen was the choice. F-16 was never the choice.

Air HQ is also not interested in investing in infrastructure for another phoren 4th generation combat aircraft. What is the point?

If you go over his words twice and then watch his eyes and his face and when he begins talking about the almost reduced but equivalent capacity.
I believe he is literally reading your words or maybe you talked to him before the interview.

I think there is a chance of 90 being the final number for the IAF. But the amount his body speaks about the 114 MRCA tells me he is damn confident about it being nothing more than a pipe dream

Thank you for pointing me towards the IAC I & II. I had my IAF blinkers on forgot about their (Naval) requirements.

[Khalsa]

Question for you Admiral
Has Admiral Arun Prakash flow the Rafale ?

[JayS]

Request. Can you please find the exact quote?

Thanks in advance.

The exact quote is at 33:21

https://youtu.be/oJZjMfYGnGM?t=1971

His whole interview is GOLD Ramana

I believe he is talking from the MRO/serviceability perspective and not comparing capability and saying x Rafale = Y some other fighter. If you buy 90 more Rafale, you have total 126 Rafales. But if you want to buy another X fighter then you have 36 Rafale + 90 X Fighter. You cant just numerically match these two cases considering different lifecycles, Maint schedule, availability requirements etc of the two types. So with some logic IAF came up with a number 114 which they think makes the second case equivalent to the first one ie. 126 Rafale = 36 Rafale + 114 other fighters.

I think this is what is saying. But then question arises, if Rafale is chosen as MRFA, why buy additional fighter over and above 90 and engage money in those 24 extra jets..? Surely the tender is not gonna change later once down-selection happens. So just to hedge agaist the possibility that Rafale may not be chosen for whatever reason, we are commiting for 24 more jets which is worth around 3B USD.. .!! Thats how disfunctional our procurement process is.

[Rakesh]

Question for you Admiral
Has Admiral Arun Prakash flow the Rafale ?

Yes

MMRCA, Admiral Arun Prakash analysis of Indian military procurements
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/07/ ... is-of.html

[...] Having flown both the F/A-18 and the Rafale, I can say that while the former would certainly have met all the IAF requirements competently and economically, the breathtaking performance of the latter leaves one in no doubt that it is a “generation-next” machine. The Eurofighter Typhoon, by all accounts, is equally impressive.[...]