VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jul 2020 02:15

I understand where you and other posters are coming from. Orders for domestic products are much left to be desired. I am disappointed with the GOI over the Tejas orders (or the lack thereof). But that should not take away from the fact that the Rafale will provide a much needed boost to the IAF. Five Rafales is going to do nothing for the IAF though. Any sane person will know that.

But in the long term, two Rafale squadrons, one additional MiG-29 squadron (and YES) even those four Tejas Mk1A squadrons will slow the alarming drop in numbers.

What the IAF needs are fighters (desi and/or phoren) and the more the merrier.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Jul 2020 03:31

What capabilities does the Rafale add over a) Su-30, b) Mig-29 Upg? For it to cost more than 5th gen F35 or any of the above two there must be massive additional capabilities added. Can MKIs/29 UPG not perform the role that Rafale is given? Safety wise - the MKI, the 29s and the LCA have a good record. So the pilots would not be adversely affected by these purchases.

Adding the munitions That Rafale brings (Meteor, Hammer) to the MKI (French or Roosi or Indian equivalent like Astra -2) would have brought similar capabilities without spending the IAF capes for the next 10 years - which is the reason why 83 LCA have still not been ordered and 15 LCH airframes sit rotting with HAL.

The Rafale will erode IAF’s ability to increase fleet strength even to 40 squadrons. So IAF has decided to make itself a smaller force that will be stretched to the limit from the start of a fight.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 28 Jul 2020 03:35

By all means buy the Rafale - it is needed. But buy it after saying that we don’t have a choice as there is no domestic alternative and don’t celebrate it is all I am saying. Armed forces should feel a distinct unease taking in these things and have that deep burning desire/resolve to nurture/consume domestic stuff. The press release should be without any fanfare, nondescript, with lots of references to budding domestic tech and its potential - almost like propaganda. Without that we will end up with another Marut - even though it saved the day in 1971 - no one acknowledges it for that .

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 28 Jul 2020 03:38

Rakesh wrote:For anyone who has any doubts about the role of the Rafale in the IAF.

This is as official as it gets....

IAF to get Rafales by July-end
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2020-06-30
30 June 2020

“The Rafale numbers might seem small for now, but their presence is itself a deterrent,” says Air Marshal Nirdosh Tyagi, former Deputy Chief of Air Staff. “These are special mission aircraft—they are not the type that will be used for close air support or point defence.”

“This is the induction of an aircraft with near fifth generation performance and marks a paradigm shift in the combat potential of the IAF,” says Air Marshal P.S. Ahluwalia, former C-in-C Western Air Command. “It is important that the pilots and technicians absorb the technology and more importantly, apply it.”

Anyone wants to take a gander at what specialized roles are being referred to here? My guess is that the rafale will form the tip of India's spear... And will be used mainly in offensive roles. GB and POK are about to feel the heat... This is the one place where India kills 2 birds with one stone. Self escort strike missions or with MKIs watching from above.

29s, tejas and bisons will form qra, cap and, point defence - defensive posture.

Mirages will be the ace in the hole serving as and how needed. From offensive strike to defensive roles in the east. Wouldn't be surprised to see more of them around kalaikunda along with rafale. MKIs will be free to rule the skies in air dominance roles. Jags will do strike and CAS. Balakot 2.0 will see offensive in the GB airspace and paf casualties.

If the s400 is delivered and installed by late fall, I'd expect the fireworks to start soon. Or next spring.

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 28 Jul 2020 03:49

Cain Marko wrote: Anyone wants to take a gander at what specialized roles are being referred to here?

One would also be nuke delivery. Was reading that the french have switched over the role to rafale in 2016 and have no issues in us doing the same. Another reason why they went for Rafale instead of EF, didn't want to deal with the consortium, especially germany, on using the EF as a delivery option.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Jul 2020 04:00

Would you want to use aircraft for nuke delivery in a SAM rich environment when one has ballistic missiles? And where is the advantage if the Rafale needs to fly with MKI cover. What has changed - $8 billion later? Jags have never been the weapon of choice - i wonder why IAF still wastes money on upgrading them. Even in SL IAF used M2Ks.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 28 Jul 2020 04:34

Vivek K wrote:And where is the advantage if the Rafale needs to fly with MKI cover. What has changed - $8 billion later? Jags have never been the weapon of choice - i wonder why IAF still wastes money on upgrading them. Even in SL IAF used M2Ks.

I did say that rafale could self escort and IMHO, better than any other platform with the IAF. It has great low level terprom modes and lower rcs than any other IAF fighter (this is where it is better than an mki). Combine this with exceptional standoff weapons like the hammer which will essentially allow it to maintain low profile throughout the ingress. Then combine this with a meteor +Mica iir package for high end a2a engagements (this is something the jags don't have, nor the mirages). A sophisticated and very comprehensive EW system uniquely adds to it's survivability.

Essentially in the rafale you have the optimum multirole bird... One that can strike at distances with great precision and stealth, and at the same time, dominate a2a. What you have here is IAFs best bird for balokot type or opening day strikes on hvas.

Iows, this is the IAF's silver bullet. Short of the F35, it is doubtful there is any other fighter in the world that can do this any better.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 28 Jul 2020 04:47

Rakesh wrote:Our pilots have safely reached the UAE. Next stop ---> Ambala! Jai Hind!

https://twitter.com/sneheshphilip/statu ... 44032?s=20 ---> All five Rafales have landed safely in Al Dhafra airbase in UAE after a sortie in excess of seven hours. Will now halt and then take off on Wednesday for Ambala where it will reach by around noon.

Any specific reason the Rafales are making a stopover of more then a day in UAE? Why take such a long time to reach motherland? With a stop over at Abu Dhabi (to account for flying time fatigue) and inflight refueling being used it should have taken a lot less time to reach Ambala.

Not nitpicking but seems very odd for jingos to wonder why is the flying time to India stretched over 3 days(from 27th to 29th).

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 28 Jul 2020 05:16

m_saini wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: Anyone wants to take a gander at what specialized roles are being referred to here?
One would also be nuke delivery. Was reading that the french have switched over the role to rafale in 2016 and have no issues in us doing the same. Another reason why they went for Rafale instead of EF, didn't want to deal with the consortium, especially germany, on using the EF as a delivery option.

Yes. so we've heard now and again... The strategic role. Although I don't think this will happen in any hurry... Esp with a brahmos capable MKI already in place. The French use the asmp for this role iirc.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 28 Jul 2020 05:24

Vips wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Our pilots have safely reached the UAE. Next stop ---> Ambala! Jai Hind!

https://twitter.com/sneheshphilip/statu ... 44032?s=20 ---> All five Rafales have landed safely in Al Dhafra airbase in UAE after a sortie in excess of seven hours. Will now halt and then take off on Wednesday for Ambala where it will reach by around noon.
Any specific reason the Rafales are making a stopover of more then a day in UAE? Why take such a long time to reach motherland? With a stop over at Abu Dhabi (to account for flying time fatigue) and inflight refueling being used it should have taken a lot less time to reach Ambala.

Not nitpicking but seems very odd for jingos to wonder why is the flying time to India stretched over 3 days(from 27th to 29th).

More than likely the lack of qualified pilots. After they land and arrive to a hotel, they need a solid 12 hours of sleep/rest, then return to the air base, check out aircraft and cue up for refueling. It should be around 4 hours from the UAE to Ambala.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 28 Jul 2020 05:49

No one here has a problem with the Rafale. The problem is that it is so expensive in comparison to domestic orders of the production Tejas which have not been given. This is a bad precedent for domestic manufacturing in the defense sector be it private or public companies. I understand COVID-19 has caused delays, but delaying further orders of the Tejas is morale breaking when foreign orders have been given.

Rakesh wrote:Easy to talk about cost and talk about Atmanirbhar Bharat, when you are not in the cockpit with a PL-12 or AIM-120C5 bearing down upon you at Mach 3. Live the life of an IAF pilot - for one day - who has to fly into heavily defended enemy territory and complete his mission. Forget one day, just do it for *ONE MISSION* and I will guarantee that you will sing another tune.

Can anyone in here do what Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman did in his MiG-21 Bison? Took on a twin seater F-16 and shot it down, all the while knowing fully well...that he too could be shot down and die? Talk is cheap.

Had money been put into the Tejas production, there would have been two squadrons of Mk1 zipping around in 2019 and we would be talking about multiple F-16s that got shot down instead.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jul 2020 05:50

Mort Walker wrote:
Vips wrote:Any specific reason the Rafales are making a stopover of more then a day in UAE? Why take such a long time to reach motherland? With a stop over at Abu Dhabi (to account for flying time fatigue) and inflight refueling being used it should have taken a lot less time to reach Ambala.

Not nitpicking but seems very odd for jingos to wonder why is the flying time to India stretched over 3 days(from 27th to 29th).
More than likely the lack of qualified pilots. After they land and arrive to a hotel, they need a solid 12 hours of sleep/rest, then return to the air base, check out aircraft and cue up for refueling. It should be around 4 hours from the UAE to Ambala.

In addition to what Mort-ji says, these pilots are human beings. Crew fatigue sets in quite rapidly over a seven hour flight.

Everyone has made long distance air travel in commercial airliners. If you fly Economy, you know how hard it is after a long trans-atlantic flight. If you have a window seat, you are FUBAR. If you have a middle seat, your fate is even worse. If you have an aisle seat, at least you can get up and walk up and down the aisle. Now business and first class are a different story altogether. But air travel is quite taxing on the human body, especially when you sit in a confined space for a long time. And that is commercial air travel.

This is a Rafale fighter cockpit....think the pilot can just stand up and stretch?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 28 Jul 2020 05:52

^^^And you can sit in soggy diapers for only so long. DVT also becomes a concern too.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 28 Jul 2020 06:00

According to Air Marshal Matheswaran (retd), “It would take almost a year before the first squadron is fully equipped with its strength of 18 aircraft and all associated equipment and weapons, as well as the training of all its aircrew. Similarly, the second squadron is expected to be operational by the middle of 2022.

So it would be at least a year before the Rafale brings the weight of its significant capabilities to air operations in the region. It is sure to bring a quantum jump in IAF’s conventional deterrent capability against both adversaries – Pakistan and China.However, the willingness to use such capabilities without hesitation will be important. This is clearly in the domain of political leadership.

“Two strategically important airbases, Ambala in the west and Hasimara in the east, will house the first and second squadron respectively. Both bases have established the huge infrastructure necessary for Rafale operations. From an economic point of view, investment in such infrastructure should normally be optimal with a minimum of two squadrons. Obviously, that leaves the option of inducting two more squadrons with the government. If that happens, it would be a huge shot in the arm for the IAF and India’s conventional deterrent capability,” he concludes.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jul 2020 06:17

Vivek K wrote:What capabilities does the Rafale add over a) Su-30, b) Mig-29 Upg? For it to cost more than 5th gen F35 or any of the above two there must be massive additional capabilities added. Can MKIs/29 UPG not perform the role that Rafale is given? Safety wise - the MKI, the 29s and the LCA have a good record. So the pilots would not be adversely affected by these purchases.

But why compare to Su-30 and MiG-29 Sir? I thought we agreed that they should be retired no, when the 650+ Tejas order goes through?

The Rafale indeed does cost more than F-35, but is India going to get F-35? They why the need to bring up this comparison? Be careful what you wish for. If F-35 comes, you can kiss goodbye to AMCA.

Surely MKI/29s can perform the same role that the Rafale is given. Just remember that same argument can be flipped around ----> can MKIs/29UPG not perform the role that Tejas is given? Why invest in Tejas then? Let the IAF get more MKI/29s. Combat proven after all!

Surely HTT-40 also flies, just like Tejas does. HTT-40 is cheaper than Tejas. Maybe instead of Tejas, the IAF should invest in an all HTT-40 fleet? Use it for everything - nuclear strike, CAP, air defence, ground strike, recon, etc. Surely that will work and will live up to Atmanirbhar Bharat!

Have you conducted a safety audit on the Su-30MKI and MiG-29 vis-a-viv the Rafale? How would you know one platform is inherently more safer than the other?

Vivek K wrote:Adding the munitions that Rafale brings (Meteor, Hammer) to the MKI (French or Roosi or Indian equivalent like Astra -2) would have brought similar capabilities without spending the IAF capes for the next 10 years - which is the reason why 83 LCA have still not been ordered and 15 LCH airframes sit rotting with HAL.

Okay, since you brought up the topic of Meteor and Astra Mk2, which out of the two actually exist right now? Perhaps we can request the Chinese to wait for a few years till Astra Mk2 is ready and then we can ask the Chinese to surprise us. For the Astra Mk2...there are ground tests, platform compatibility tests, air tests, etc. Do you think we should skip them all? And since MBDA refused to integrate Meteor onto Tejas (because of the Israeli radar), perhaps we can ask the pilots of No 45 Sqn, Flying Daggers to fly to France and invade MBDA's offices. Perhaps then they may listen.

Or would the better option be to acquire a phoren missile, till our own Astra Mk2 variant is fully tested and ready to roll. That would be the sensible thing to do no? Or are the laws of science and R&D completely phoren to you?

Hammer is being acquired because the Spice will take up to two years to fully integrate on the Rafale. But once again, let us send a postcard (with cute little red hearts drawn all over) to the Chinese explaining our predicament and ask them to wait. I am sure they will. The IAF actually decided on the Spice for the Rafale, but never knew the Galwan was going to happen in 2020. And because they need a precision strike weapon, they have opted for the Hammer in an emergency purchase. Perhaps the next RFI for the IAF should be a crystal ball to predict the future.

Vivek K wrote:The Rafale will erode IAF’s ability to increase fleet strength even to 40 squadrons. So IAF has decided to make itself a smaller force that will be stretched to the limit from the start of a fight.

Wow...all that takleef from two Rafale squadrons.

At this rate, if and when MMRCA 2.0 goes through....you will get asthma attack Sir!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jul 2020 06:28

V_Raman wrote:By all means buy the Rafale - it is needed. But buy it after saying that we don’t have a choice as there is no domestic alternative and don’t celebrate it is all I am saying. Armed forces should feel a distinct unease taking in these things and have that deep burning desire/resolve to nurture/consume domestic stuff. The press release should be without any fanfare, nondescript, with lots of references to budding domestic tech and its potential - almost like propaganda. Without that we will end up with another Marut - even though it saved the day in 1971 - no one acknowledges it for that .

I get your point - why invest in another country's MIC?

That deep burning desire that you are talking about comes from the Govt and not from the services. They have to provide the direction. Are they doing that right now? The reality is our babus and politicians only have a sense of urgency, when there is a national emergency. Who is going to change that?

And that is a discussion to have when there is peace on the border. Is that the situation now on the Indo-China border? And neither will five Rafales alter the direction of air power between the IAF and the PLAAF.

Those 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30MKIs that have been ordered will take another 18 - 24 months before they join the IAF. The 83 Tejas Mk1A order will take three years for the first batch to arrive. So a Dec 2020 contract signing will see a Dec 2023 delivery at the earliest. Right now, the IAF is going to fight with what it has.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jul 2020 06:32

Vivek K wrote:Would you want to use aircraft for nuke delivery in a SAM rich environment when one has ballistic missiles? And where is the advantage if the Rafale needs to fly with MKI cover. What has changed - $8 billion later? Jags have never been the weapon of choice - i wonder why IAF still wastes money on upgrading them. Even in SL, IAF used M2Ks.

Have you ever heard of the nuclear triad? This weird triangle shaped graphic below?

Why bother investing in such an elaborate system, if ballistic missiles are guaranteed to do the job?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 28 Jul 2020 06:54

^^^The nuclear deterrent by air has to be delivered by bombers. The heavy in the IAF is the twin engine Su-30MKI, not the Rafale. It can deliver the nuclear warhead enabled Brahmos. The Rafale can not.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jul 2020 07:17

Mort Saar, the Rafale will not carry the nuclear warhead enabled BrahMos-A...but she most definitely has a nuclear strike role. Confirmed by Air Vice Marshal Prakash Kumar Srivastava (retd), former Assistant Chief of Air Staff, Signal & IT and Air Marshal Vinod Patney (retd), former Vice Chief of Air Staff.

Obviously nothing more is known beyond that and neither should it be.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Jul 2020 07:54

Rakesh wrote: Have you ever heard of the nuclear triad? This weird triangle shaped graphic below?

Why bother investing in such an elaborate system, if ballistic missiles are guaranteed to do the job?

Admiral saar - that is why never made an officer rank and you did! I though that the Arihant was built for making bubbles. So now the Rafale is being bought for a nuke role - there was talk sometime back of 40 MKIs having a strategic role? So will these aircraft be dedicated to that role?

I think this defense is more like clutching at straws to defend the Rafale purchase. The truth is actually far simpler - but it seems we're oblivious to it.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jul 2020 08:02

Vivek Saar, prior to Rafale and Su-30MKI purchase....both the Jaguar and the Mirage 2000 reportedly had a nuclear strike role. Why use two different aircraft? Why did the IAF just not use one platform? Same story today, no?

How do you know that the Rafale has overtaken the nuclear strike role from the Rambha? Do you know that for a fact? Just because one platform can launch nuclear weapons, is it a cardinal sin to look at another platform that could also do the role?

Su-30MKI fires missiles, so MiG-29, Tejas and Mirage 2000 must not? Is that logic sound Saar?

Vivek K wrote:Admiral saar - that is why never made an officer rank and you did! I though that the Arihant was built for making bubbles.

You will get there Saar. Don't worry. Embrace the dark side!

Import, Import, Import!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 28 Jul 2020 09:14

Rakesh wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Admiral saar - that is why never made an officer rank and you did! I though that the Arihant was built for making bubbles.
You will get there Saar. Don't worry. Embrace the dark side! Import, Import, Import!

Sir at this rate your ACR will continue to be at the highest rating and there is no way that the BR Promotions Board can deny you promotion to the Rank of Field Marshall thus outranking Marshall of the Fleet Filipov by a country mile..

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 28 Jul 2020 10:07

Just a hypothetical question -- which are the airbases where you will prefer the next two Rafale squadrons to be based? My pick -- Gwalior and Thanjavur.

Rakesh wrote: Easy to talk about cost and talk about Atmanirbhar Bharat, when you are not in the cockpit with a PL-12 or AIM-120C5 bearing down upon you at Mach 3. Live the life of an IAF pilot - for one day - who has to fly into heavily defended enemy territory and complete his mission. Forget one day, just do it for *ONE MISSION* and I will guarantee that you will sing another tune.

Can anyone in here do what Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman did in his MiG-21 Bison? Took on a twin seater F-16 and shot it down, all the while knowing fully well...that he too could be shot down and die? Talk is cheap.

True. For all the talk about Bharat Mata, I wonder how many of the gents here actually own Tata or Mahindra cars. I own a Hyundai xcent. I've owned Tata & Mahindra vehicles too and the experience was far from satisfactory. With Hyundai, you pay more for service but you get what you pay for -- bulletproof build & problem-free running. My 2014 xcent has run 1,17,000 kms without a single problem other than the bumper which I keep scratching on the road and needs to replaced every 2.5 years. My next vehicle will definitely be another Hyundai or a Toyota.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 Jul 2020 10:19

sajaym wrote:True. For all the talk about Bharat Mata, I wonder how many of the gents here actually own Tata or Mahindra cars. I own a Hyundai xcent. I've owned Tata & Mahindra vehicles too and the experience was far from satisfactory. With Hyundai, you pay more for service but you get what you pay for -- bulletproof build & problem-free running. My 2014 xcent has run 1,17,000 kms without a single problem other than the bumper which I keep scratching on the road and needs to replaced every 2.5 years. My next vehicle will definitely be another Hyundai or a Toyota.

a maruti suzuki Dzire ( done 60000 km with no complaints/problems)... before that a WagonR ( 125000 km) with only bearing shocker change and last a clutch change. both sides have a argument... even the tata or mahindra car has improved tremendously over the years .. u will see tata/mahindra vehicles in many countries

amitverma · Post by **amitverma** » 28 Jul 2020 10:20

Indian airforce Rafale spotted during Mid Air refueling by French airforce A330

https://twitter.com/Maverick_bharat/sta ... 1324872704

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 28 Jul 2020 10:23

sajaym wrote:
Rakesh wrote: Easy to talk about cost and talk about Atmanirbhar Bharat, when you are not in the cockpit with a PL-12 or AIM-120C5 bearing down upon you at Mach 3. Live the life of an IAF pilot - for one day - who has to fly into heavily defended enemy territory and complete his mission. Forget one day, just do it for *ONE MISSION* and I will guarantee that you will sing another tune.

Can anyone in here do what Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman did in his MiG-21 Bison? Took on a twin seater F-16 and shot it down, all the while knowing fully well...that he too could be shot down and die? Talk is cheap.
True. For all the talk about Bharat Mata, I wonder how many of the gents here actually own Tata or Mahindra cars. I own a Hyundai xcent. I've owned Tata & Mahindra vehicles too and the experience was far from satisfactory. With Hyundai, you pay more for service but you get what you pay for -- bulletproof build & problem-free running. My 2014 xcent has run 1,17,000 kms without a single problem other than the bumper which I keep scratching on the road and needs to replaced every 2.5 years. My next vehicle will definitely be another Hyundai or a Toyota.

This is more like a rationalization of purchase. The proper comparison with cars would be you've got to take 50 people across town. Would you be buying one BMW and Mercedes or 10 Tatas and Mahindras for the same price?

BTW, as said before, if there was a 2 or 3-1 ratio of the F-16s being hunted by the Tejas, then this wouldn't be topic of discussion.

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 28 Jul 2020 10:54

sajaym wrote: True. For all the talk about Bharat Mata, I wonder how many of the gents here actually own Tata or Mahindra cars. I own a Hyundai xcent. I've owned Tata & Mahindra vehicles too and the experience was far from satisfactory. With Hyundai, you pay more for service but you get what you pay for -- bulletproof build & problem-free running. My 2014 xcent has run 1,17,000 kms without a single problem other than the bumper which I keep scratching on the road and needs to replaced every 2.5 years. My next vehicle will definitely be another Hyundai or a Toyota.

Saar your hyundai gives you the "bulletproof build & problem-free running" because the koreans bought their previous models which were "far from satisfactory". And it's not about gents buying Tatas or Mahindras either, koreans would've bought the fords and mercedes too had their government let them. The koreans nurture their Chaebols very well without worrying about whether or not their cars can run 117k kms.

Everyone here just wants GoI to nurture our own equipments rather than France's.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 28 Jul 2020 11:39

Agreed! But now the purchases are skewed in favour of domestic products -- 120+ Tejas Vs 36 (+36?) Rafales, and this is a welcome development. Encouragement of domestic products while retaining the competitive edge using stop gap imports. Win win for all!

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 28 Jul 2020 11:42

sajaym wrote:Agreed! But now the purchases are skewed in favour of domestic products -- 120+ Tejas Vs 36 (+36?) Rafales, and this is a welcome development. Encouragement of domestic products while retaining the competitive edge using stop gap imports. Win win for all!

If this is win-win then I'd rather lose-lose with 200 Tejas alone.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 28 Jul 2020 11:52

Rakesh wrote:
V_Raman wrote:I am not arguing about lack of LCA induction or anything like that. But don’t show so much happiness for a phirang h/w. Celebrate the LCA induction like this or Akash or Pinaka like this. What you celebrate matters in changing attitude/perceptions
You think there is happiness only about the plane? Honestly?

Did it ever occur to you that the pilots who are flying these newer machines are more safer than flying an aging MiG-21?

If he dies flying a MiG-21, so be it. Not my relative in the cockpit. So why should I care?

I will wait till HAL produces enough Tejas aircraft and then onlee I will celebrate.

What does the IAF do to address squadron shortage till then? Restore Maruts and Gnats back into service?

Production happens after order. Order 83 Tejas Mk1A or more Mk1/Mk1A. It will be cheaper, safer and better than your Mig 21. The rafale is not a replacement for Mig 21, so the argument is invalid and worse than invalid. The IAF can decide where to spend it's precious resources over a 5 year term. The time for all of this was 3-5 years ago. The Mk1A lack of order is rather grating even now.

The Rafale is a pretty good system/set of systems at a somewhat higher price. But nothing about this has changed in the last few years.

So let those who want to enjoy a minor milestone today do so, and those who don't want to observe it , don't

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 28 Jul 2020 12:14

Mort Walker wrote:
Vips wrote:
Any specific reason the Rafales are making a stopover of more then a day in UAE? Why take such a long time to reach motherland? With a stop over at Abu Dhabi (to account for flying time fatigue) and inflight refueling being used it should have taken a lot less time to reach Ambala.

Not nitpicking but seems very odd for jingos to wonder why is the flying time to India stretched over 3 days(from 27th to 29th).
More than likely the lack of qualified pilots. After they land and arrive to a hotel, they need a solid 12 hours of sleep/rest, then return to the air base, check out aircraft and cue up for refueling. It should be around 4 hours from the UAE to Ambala.

Mort sir,

OH&S regulations mean that they can only fly a certain number of hours per day!!!!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jul 2020 21:12

sajaym wrote:Just a hypothetical question -- which are the airbases where you will prefer the next two Rafale squadrons to be based? My pick -- Gwalior and Thanjavur.

Hasimara and Ambala can house one additional squadron. So if two more are being acquired, it will be there. Any more squadrons after that, will be at Gwalior. Some training infrastructure set up is being done at Gwalior for the Rafale and Mirage 2000.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 28 Jul 2020 21:16

Indian Air Force appreciates the support provided by French Air Force for our Rafale journey back home.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1288 ... 61iuAjAAAA

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 28 Jul 2020 21:18

Two more from the link above.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jul 2020 21:56

Barath wrote:Production happens after order. Order 83 Tejas Mk1A or more Mk1/Mk1A. It will be cheaper, safer and better than your Mig 21. The rafale is not a replacement for Mig 21, so the argument is invalid and worse than invalid. The IAF can decide where to spend it's precious resources over a 5 year term. The time for all of this was 3-5 years ago. The Mk1A lack of order is rather grating even now.

The Rafale is a pretty good system/set of systems at a somewhat higher price. But nothing about this has changed in the last few years.

So let those who want to enjoy a minor milestone today do so, and those who don't want to observe it , don't

Surely, but when the first aircraft will come only three years after signature, what should the IAF do till then?

And the MiG-21 replacement is the Tejas and not the Rafale. But if the IAF can retire a MiG-21 squadron in the mean time, that would not be an appealing choice? Time for this was indeed in the past, but can the past be changed? Are we going to throw the baby out with the bath water?

The IAF must hold all her other modernisation plans till the MoD gets its act together on the 83 Tejas Mk1As? If we are going to go down that path, then the IAF should stop everything else - Mirage 2000 upgrade, Jaguar Darin III upgrade, 248 Astra Mk1 missiles, pay penalty to Dassault for cancellation of Rafale contract, S-400 acquisition....stop it all. Will that work?

It is frustrating at the glacial pace that the 83 order is moving at. It is equally frustrating that the MoD got all the time in the world to sanction 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30s and send Rajnath Singh to Moscow for speedy acquisition of the S-400....all the while, the date for the contract signing for the 83 Tejas Mk1As keeps getting pushed further back.

Should we go to North Block and knock some sense into a few Babu's heads? Will that work? Because if it did, I would be the first to do it. However, if IAF pilots can fly a safer plane (desi or phoren), I am all for it and I will celebrate it.

1. Who here wants to be in Wing Commander Ajit Bhaskar Vasane's shoes?
https://www.gallantryawards.gov.in/Awar ... kar-vasane
The above link is charitable to him. He landed his plane in a cockpit with zero visibility. ZERO.

2. Who here wants to be in Squadron Leader Rijul Sharma's shoes?
https://www.aviation-defence-universe.c ... ul-sharma/

3. Who here wants to be in Air Marshal Vivek Ram Chaudhuri's shoes?
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... ncies.html

I dare anyone to go through even ONE of these harrowing encounters. This is what IAF pilots *could* go through each time they take to the air. Imagine if the 36 Rafales did not come in and the IAF had to continue to soldier on with aging aircraft. Now imagine if they did not make it. You want to be the one to explain to their wife or their parents as to why their husband and son did not make it because MoD still has not got its act together over 83 Tejas Mk1As? Rahul Gandhi has the luxury of verbal diarrhea by stating that Narendra Modi siphoned off CRORES to his crony friend i.e. Anil Ambani (over the Rafale deal). He can say that because he does not have to break bad news to a pilot's family. Talk is Cheap.

Lack of Tejas orders is indeed grating. It is downright frustrating. It makes me as angry as anyone else on this forum. But the pilot's life is more important. Coming home to his family is more important. When we celebrate what happened at Balakot, we do not realise the sacrifice these men have made. We can sit on a forum and type +108 to Indian Air Force! We can type Jai Hind! We can type, yeah...we showed them NaPakis! We can also cheer. We can be genuinely angry when we watch the barbaric treatment that Wing Commander Varthaman had to go through. But has anyone walked in his shoes?

I cannot speak for anyone else on this forum, but I can speak for myself. I would die from shock onlee. And that is why I am not a pilot in the Indian Air Force.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » 28 Jul 2020 22:14

What does Rafale bring to the table ..

IAF’s Rafale, the gust of wind, holding China’s PLAAF in a spot of bother
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... r/2037217/
28 July 2020

By Wing Commander Abhishek Matiman (Retd) - The author is a veteran IAF aviator & former spokesperson for the Ministry of Defence. He has regularly been writing for mainstream newspapers, and also appears on TV news channels in debates pertaining to Defence and Geopolitical affairs. Twitter: WingCoMats@AbhishekMatiman. Views expressed are personal.

Though, in light of a fairly prolonged spell of no significant value additions to a fleet having to contend with, even sheer numbers well short of the sanctioned strength, the brouhaha about the Rafale isn’t without a reason. It would, however, be prudent at this juncture to make a realistic assessment of what they bring to the plate in terms of real deterrence, as regards our larger Northern neighbour in particular. The usual belligerence having now transcended into deceitful military action, China now is seen clearly as an enemy nation out to clip our wings in its own quest for supremacy. The clarity and sense of urgency that it lends to our resolve to claim our rightful place under the Sun is indeed welcome.

The weapons package that accompanies the Rafale, beyond doubt, puts to rest debates on our capabilities against the PAF whose mainstay remains the US-made AIM-120 AMRAAMs with a range of about 100 km. The most significant advantage that accrues from the Meteor BVR air to air missile with a superior range of over 120 km is it’s ‘no escape zone’ that is the largest for any air to air missile in the world. The Meteor is a radar-guided missile whose construction was primarily driven by the need to counter the new generation of highly agile Russian fighter jets like the MiG-29 and Sukhoi-27 (the parent design of the IAF SU-30MKI).

It differs from others in its class like the Phoenix, R-33 & AMRAAM in its unique propulsion system. Most others are propelled by a rocket engine delivering a uniform thrust over a predetermined duration of flight before burning out before finally coasting/gliding to its target at reduced kinetic energy in the terminal phase. This leaves a larger scope for evasion by highly agile aircraft by extreme manoeuvring/deployment of countermeasures. The most recent case in point being Su-30MKI fighters of the IAF that successfully dodged AMRAAM missiles fired by Pakistan’s F-16s last February.

The Meteor missile has a miniature supersonic jet engine/ramjet which can throttle its engine back during cruise, thus saving fuel. Throttling up as it approaches the target, hitting up to Mach 4.5 in the terminal phase, even over long ranges. Experts opine that the No Escape Zone of the Meteor is roughly thrice that of the AIM-120 AMRAAM. Add to that its relatively low weight of 190kg enabling a single Rafale to carry four or more missiles at a time making it truly a lethal combination even the PLAAF would prefer to avoid confronting.

With media reports suggesting that the PLAAF currently operates over 500 units of the SU-27/30 class and their local derivatives like the J-11 & J-16, with plans to expand to up to 1000 units by 2050, the battle-tested Meteor gives the IAF a definite edge over a major chunk of the PLAAF fleet in aerial combat. There have been reports that the PLAAF had begun deploying a new air-to-air missile on its fleet of J-11 fighters. This weapon, called the PL-15, is estimated to have a range over 200km but like the rest, employs rocket motor propulsion, hence as per experts the primary role of the PL-15 may be to destroy ‘high-value’ targets such as airborne early-warning aircraft and aerial refuelling aircraft.

As regards air to ground weaponry, the Scalp long-range, deep strike missiles with stated range of over 560kms would definitely have both the PLA and the PLAAF in a spot of serious bother. The missile can be fired from standoff ranges, striking most targets of concern across the LAC with pin-point accuracy whilst remaining within the safety of Indian airspace. With an unparalleled standoff range, low observability (due to its design and terrain hugging altitude in flight) the Scalp’s lethality is sure to cause deep concerns. The missile also has been battle-tested with great success by the French Air Force during operations in Libya & Syria.

Hammer air to ground precision munitions, the latest addition to the weapons package adds versatility in operations whilst minimizing the time for readiness to undertake operational missions post-arrival since the arriving aircraft are already capable of firing those. With a standoff range of 70kms, it falls in the category of the Israeli Spice2000 used to hit targets in Balakot last year. The Hammer can be used for both, close air support and ground attack missions. The Mica of course already in operation with the IAF are BVRMs capable of both beyond visual range and close combat with telling effect.

Adding teeth to the best in class array of weapon systems onboard the Rafale is the SPECTRA, an integrated defensive-aids system which protects the aircraft against airborne and ground threats adding to its survivability in the most hostile environment. The system incorporates various types of detection, jamming, and decoying. It is designed to be highly versatile and easily reprogrammable to facilitate quick add-ons and modifications. The system was put to elaborate use during operations in Libya with spectacular success. The Spectra enabled Rafales to undertake missions independently with equal accuracy/lethality.

From the PLAAF inventory, it’s the Chengdu J-20 that is seen as the main contender and of course the Shenyang J-31 as and when produced and operationalised. While both these aircraft are pitched as fifth-generation stealth fighters while the Rafale admittedly/honestly belongs to the 4.5 generation, the capabilities of the Chinese aircraft as heralded by their own mouthpieces are mostly on paper, as is for most of the things Chinese. The Rafale, on the contrary, is a formidable battle-tested weapon platform.

Rafale doesn’t boast of stealth but is built around the low Radar Cross Section (RCS) philosophy. The J-20 in contrast that proclaims to be stealth has design features that defy the very basics of stealth construction like the canard and provision for external fuel tanks. It’s common knowledge of late that the IAF SU-30MKIs pick up the J-20s on their radars. Overall – the low RCS, excellent weapons carriage capacity (over 09 tonnes, 14-hard points) and Supercruise combined with an array of battle-tested top of the line weapons package together pack a punch enough to keep at bay, the best that the PLAAF has.

As regards avionics, the PLAAF’s wares almost match up, but that again, solely based on their own claims. What’s yet to be seen is, if the Chinese have been able to integrate technologies well enough to be effective in real combat. The Spectra onboard Rafale, takes the cake on that front, guarantying superior survivability. Given the proven capabilities of the Rafale, it is unlikely that China would risk bringing the J-20 face to face with it until self-assured of its capabilities.

The biggest advantage that the Rafale brings to the IAF vis a vis PLAAF is, it being a French aircraft, the Chinese have very limited insights into the technologies and capabilities it brings to the arena, unlike aircraft of Russian origin that they know all too well barring India specific enhancements and modifications. Of course, only the handful arriving shortly practically do not make up for much, going by sheer numbers that the PLAAF is in a position to deploy, nevertheless deter the Chinese – the Rafale most certainly would.

Going by reports, the French have expressed willingness to supply an additional 36 post-delivery of the first lot contracted, at a reduced cost. That definitely would go a long way in securing the frontiers, in the process making up for the shortfall that the IAF faces today. Upgradation and acquisition to reach optimum force levels must continue in the right earnest whilst concurrently pushing for indigenisation, especially in the tumultuous times that lie ahead.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 28 Jul 2020 22:21

An official word on when the next set are going to land? As per the press release the rest of the fighters will be delivered by the end of next year i.e. 30+1 over the next ~1.5 years => on average 5 fighters every quarter, so we could see ~10 by year end (or Jan/Feb next year).

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 28 Jul 2020 22:50

OK, this is seriously getting silly: https://www.rediff.com/news/report/rafa ... 200728.htm

From this article, the following: BJP's Ambala City MLA Aseem Goyal urged to people to light candles in their homes between 7-7:30 pm on Wednesday to welcome the Rafale jets.

All hail the great white man's creations which will deliver salvation for the wretched SDREs!

Our moronic DDM has outdone itself. Especially the Hindi news channels. ABP Live today afternoon was passing off F-16s as Rafales. They were playing this on loop. For an entire show. I know DDM types can't differentiate between a horse and an aircraft but how much worse can it get?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Jul 2020 22:57

Now that is SILLY!!!

pandyan · Post by **pandyan** » 28 Jul 2020 23:14

Question: if original MRCA 126 M2Ks were available and assuming they were upgraded to current M2K-India standards, would you still need Rafales to handle china threat? I know this is a silly question. I am suspecting that Rafale would still be needed.