Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 24 Jul 2020 18:35

ParGha wrote:Training school. Part of the Armoured Corps Center and School.

Ah.. Nagar....

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 26 Jul 2020 03:51

"In our armament trials we place overmuch stress on issues that are of marginal imp. For MBT ARJUN ATGM firing through gun has become a make or break issue. Whereas in A-tk engagements gun tube ATGM engagements by tanks will be rare. The KE fired by the gun will be primary mode"
https://mobile.twitter.com/rathorekaran ... 6512660481

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 26 Jul 2020 07:58

The unfortunate reality is Arjun or any MII defense system is destined to fail except in the cases there is a serious will in the respect force (like Indian Navy) or in the political leadership.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 26 Jul 2020 11:14

Yagnasri wrote:The unfortunate reality is Arjun or any MII defense system is destined to fail except in the cases there is a serious will in the respect force (like Indian Navy) or in the political leadership.

Its good , the forces , albeit Vets coming in support of indigenous equipment. We knew all along there is serious discrimination going on now these are being vetted by serving officers themselves. He have talked about NAG too , follow the thread.

basant · Post by **basant** » 26 Jul 2020 14:20

A good tweet by KUNAL BISWAS (@KUNALBI25146617), not sure if already shared.

The reason Russian followed ATGM from longer range is their FCS are not refined as western once and don`t have same accuracy,

now if i come to Arjun`s accuracy at range the results were better with regards to T-90`s.. please note details under Fire control System

5:00 PM · Jul 25, 2020

Also posted earlier

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 26 Jul 2020 21:05

https://mobile.twitter.com/I30mki/statu ... 9789490176

#Indian Army to buy 45 2S5 Sprut-SD/SDM Light Tanks on Emergency basis, which delivery to be started with in a year and completed before 2 years......

Later @DRDO's Light Tank Project to be revised.

This seems to be highly reactive,and an admission that the Indian Army has got it wrong at some point.

Chinese light tanks were present at Dhoklam. Did this cause no thinking at the time ?

The Sprut is an 18 tonne tank destroyer/light tank with a 125mm gun. Closer to a BMP2 in weight than to a T72 or T90 or Arjun

Edit: The author is a self declared "analyst" from DFI. In other words, this should not be considered in any sense authoritative

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Jul 2020 21:34

Barath wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/I30mki/statu ... 9789490176

#Indian Army to buy 45 2S5 Sprut-SD/SDM Light Tanks on Emergency basis, which delivery to be started with in a year and completed before 2 years......

Later @DRDO's Light Tank Project to be revised.

This seems to be highly reactive,and an admission that the Indian Army has got it wrong at some point.

Chinese light tanks were present at Dhoklam. Did this cause no thinking at the time ?

The Sprut is an 18 tonne tank destroyer/light tank with a 125mm gun. Closer to a BMP2 in weight than to a T72 or T90 or Arjun

First this is twitter, and may not be true. If it is true it smells of being a scam.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 26 Jul 2020 21:54

Agree : The author decription "i am a Defence analyst of DFI.. News i post or Copy paste from Different forums,"
Ie It's in no way authoritative. Amended to reflect that

Info on Sprut :

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/sprut_sdm1.htm
https://www.army-technology.com/project ... ious-tank/

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 27 Jul 2020 04:41

Aditya_V wrote:
Barath wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/I30mki/statu ... 9789490176

#Indian Army to buy 45 2S5 Sprut-SD/SDM Light Tanks on Emergency basis, which delivery to be started with in a year and completed before 2 years......

Later @DRDO's Light Tank Project to be revised.

This seems to be highly reactive,and an admission that the Indian Army has got it wrong at some point.

Chinese light tanks were present at Dhoklam. Did this cause no thinking at the time ?

The Sprut is an 18 tonne tank destroyer/light tank with a 125mm gun. Closer to a BMP2 in weight than to a T72 or T90 or Arjun
First this is twitter, and may not be true. If it is true it smells of being a scam.

If the Indian army wants a light tank then should not go for the Sprut light tank. The K21 or CV90 are much better choices.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Jul 2020 11:59

Let me start by saying that I am against all kind of imports for defence. To an extent that Indian armed forces should fight with sticks and stones bit not with imported weapons.

Now that's out of the way.

The acquisition of sprut makes sense from a certain POV. As long as it can handle the T90 ammunition.

Having said that, it seems that our armed forces believe that they are still in Mahabharata period. That the PRC will send light tank and issue a challenge to Indian army light tank to come and fight.

If logistics of fighting heavy armoured vehicles in mountain is unviable. Then why not use light tactical vehicle and whichever modern ATGM army selects.

Or it will go against the spirit of fair and equitable fighting?

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 27 Jul 2020 12:17

The Sprut-SD/SDM Light Tank is a good buy. An IL76 can carry 2 of them and air drop them as well.

It would be stupidity to pit them in a face-to-face fight against regular MBTs. I guess this tank is supposed to be used like how the rcl jeeps were used. Shoot and scoot.

Also just two of them OR 1 Sprut and 1 M-777 artillery gun, air dropped behind enemy lines or at a choke point with a couple of para commandoes can cause a huge pain for our enemies.

Nilanjan · Post by **Nilanjan** » 27 Jul 2020 13:39

All news about light tank and predatore drone is fake fake and fake...

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 27 Jul 2020 15:11

the counter to Chinese tanks in Ladakh is not a new light tank, but anti-tank missiles - Nag and Spike. And Helina and Dhruvastra. And SANT.

srin · Post by **srin** » 27 Jul 2020 15:35

sajaym wrote:The Sprut-SD/SDM Light Tank is a good buy. An IL76 can carry 2 of them and air drop them as well.

It would be stupidity to pit them in a face-to-face fight against regular MBTs. I guess this tank is supposed to be used like how the rcl jeeps were used. Shoot and scoot.

Also just two of them OR 1 Sprut and 1 M-777 artillery gun, air dropped behind enemy lines or at a choke point with a couple of para commandoes can cause a huge pain for our enemies.

Then we don't need to import a new tank, we just need more BMPs and/or Whap-Kestrel type vehicles with ATGMs on them.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Jul 2020 20:54

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/128 ... 94562?s=20 ---> To meet the Indian Army’s light mountain tank requirement, India’s L&T and DRDO have tied up to mate the K-9 chassis with a new modular gun, reports Sandeep Unnithan. Can be built in large numbers at L&T’s ready K-9 line in Hazira, Gujarat. Detailed report soon.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Jul 2020 20:59

Rampy · Post by **Rampy** » 27 Jul 2020 21:58

My thoughts on this light tank none-sense. We asked Russ for S400 to be expedited, they are now pushing for light tank to be bought in exchange to expedite that we have already bought. Pure 3rd grade business thinking by Russ. Now they have activated their natasha gang, as most top guys are all lost credibility and no lobby left in MoD they are using twitter fighters to push the deal

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Jul 2020 22:13

The proposed 105 mm turret for the k 9 can also be mated with the DRDO Krestal. It will be a better choice for the a light tank candidate. In the short term. In the long term. I am thinking of a vehicle with the following attributes.

1) 140 mm main gun with autoloader and the Jordanian Falcon type low-profile turret.
2) Front mounted application of the t 72 engine.
3) Automatic transmission ( new development if necessary).
4) Mast mounted commander's independent thermal camera( 5 meter elevation)
5) Arjun suspension and running gear.
6) Kancha armour and active protection.
7) Crew to be placed in the hull like the t 14.

While I am currently firmly a resident of dream land. I will take the same package with a 155 mm gun for direct fire application like the stug3.

I think this is doable under 40 tons. Should solve a lot of issues with requirements of the FMBT.

nam · Post by **nam** » 27 Jul 2020 22:32

The K9 has the engine in the front. It would be interesting to see how L&T & DRDO design the light tank.

They should come up with two variant. One with the vanila K9 chasis and the imported turret (ideally 120MM). And another one with 1400 engine and if possible a local turret with autloader or imported turret, with all the bells & whistle from Arjun MK1A.

That would be the improved Arjun. A 3 crew, 120MM, single piece ammo, autoloader, around 50 ton. If DRDO can build a compact turret like K2, that would brilliant.

nam · Post by **nam** » 27 Jul 2020 22:33

Anways, I am not too hopeful. In the planned 18 months, either the war would have happened or everyone would go back to status quo. The interest in this project will be lost and more T90 will be ordered.

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Jul 2020 08:14

nam wrote:Anways, I am not too hopeful. In the planned 18 months, either the war would have happened or everyone would go back to status quo. The interest in this project will be lost and more T90 will be ordered.

^+1.

Used to be super excited and hopeful whenever any such press release and "imminent induction" articles used to pop up with timelines like in next 3 months etc.

But hard experience over the past decade has shown that 95% of these can be safely ignored since they will never make it past the PPT or the 1st prototype ( or will be in endless trials), so it is better not to get hopes high an feel disappointed later

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 28 Jul 2020 09:45

Pratyush wrote:The proposed 105 mm turret for the k 9 can also be mated with the DRDO Krestal. It will be a better choice for the a light tank candidate. In the short term. In the long term. I am thinking of a vehicle with the following attributes.

1) 140 mm main gun with autoloader and the Jordanian Falcon type low-profile turret.
2) Front mounted application of the t 72 engine.
3) Automatic transmission ( new development if necessary).
4) Mast mounted commander's independent thermal camera( 5 meter elevation)
5) Arjun suspension and running gear.
6) Kancha armour and active protection.
7) Crew to be placed in the hull like the t 14.

While I am currently firmly a resident of dream land. I will take the same package with a 155 mm gun for direct fire application like the stug3.

I think this is doable under 40 tons. Should solve a lot of issues with requirements of the FMBT.

Why spend so much time and effort on a tank that has limited applicability sir?

The K9 mating or Kestrel should be just fine although I have a feeling that the IA prefers tracked to wheeled vehicles for tank like roles.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Jul 2020 15:50

I am not just thinking about the light tank.

I am thinking about the FMBT and how to do it on the cheap. If this can be done under 40 tons. It will be light enough to be in the T72 catagory. And within shouting distance of the new PRC light tank. With better protection and mobility. Along with wider use potential. Instead of limited application as a light tank.

While removing major weakness of the T72/90 families.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 28 Jul 2020 16:15

Pratyush wrote:I am not just thinking about the light tank.

I am thinking about the FMBT and how to do it on the cheap. If this can be done under 40 tons. It will be light enough to be in the T72 catagory. And within shouting distance of the new PRC light tank. With better protection and mobility. Along with wider use potential. Instead of limited application as a light tank.

While removing major weakness of the T72/90 families.

Sirji,
Removing weakness of the T series necessitates a tank heavier than that.
You cannot have it both ways.
Mobility Vs protection - it is not a positive sum game..

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 28 Jul 2020 18:43

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/128 ... 94562?s=20 ---> To meet the Indian Army’s light mountain tank requirement, India’s L&T and DRDO have tied up to mate the K-9 chassis with a new modular gun, reports Sandeep Unnithan. Can be built in large numbers at L&T’s ready K-9 line in Hazira, Gujarat. Detailed report soon.

Sandeep Unnithan is reporting only now on something which was first disclosed by a Defence AV on July 3rd!!! I had mentioned it on Page 11 of this thread.

Vips wrote:Saw a AV report today which says L&T is working on optimizing the K9 Vajra hull for Light Tank for the Indian Army. L&T wants to ensure the K9 assembly lines which will be utilized after the initial order for 110 K9's are completed at the end of this year.

nam · Post by **nam** » 28 Jul 2020 18:56

ks_sachin wrote:Sirji,
Removing weakness of the T series necessitates a tank heavier than that.
You cannot have it both ways.
Mobility Vs protection - it is not a positive sum game..

Actually the biggest issue on T90 is it's autloader, which restricts introducing a better sabot round.

If we could introduce a 1400hp engine (uprate the existing 1200hp engine), APS, better ERA and better autoloader, then the weight will still be within existing number. There are now "exotic" tech available to reduce weight. Composite parts, but will make it expensive.

APS will protect again ATGM, while better ERA will protect against sabots. Improved thrust and a better offensive sabot.

I don't know why IA has never asked DRDO to improve the T90, specially the autoloader. It is very do able.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 28 Jul 2020 19:56

nam wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Sirji,
Removing weakness of the T series necessitates a tank heavier than that.
You cannot have it both ways.
Mobility Vs protection - it is not a positive sum game..
Actually the biggest issue on T90 is it's autloader, which restricts introducing a better sabot round.

If we could introduce a 1400hp engine (uprate the existing 1200hp engine), APS, better ERA and better autoloader, then the weight will still be within existing number. There are now "exotic" tech available to reduce weight. Composite parts, but will make it expensive.

APS will protect again ATGM, while better ERA will protect against sabots. Improved thrust and a better offensive sabot.

I don't know why IA has never asked DRDO to improve the T90, specially the autoloader. It is very do able.

We can then market it as a cost effective T-90 upgrade to the world!!

srin · Post by **srin** » 29 Jul 2020 12:17

Converting K-9 to a light tank isn't going to be easy.
K-9 weighs 47t (wiki data). Going for a lighter gun would definitely decrease the weight of the turrent and thus the whole tank. But, not sure if it can bring it down to ~30t.
Despite that, it only has armor to withstand upto 14.5mm AP hits (ref wiki). Not sure if it is adequate, but up armouring is going to increase weight.

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 29 Jul 2020 13:47

srin wrote:Converting K-9 to a light tank isn't going to be easy.
K-9 weighs 47t (wiki data). Going for a lighter gun would definitely decrease the weight of the turrent and thus the whole tank. But, not sure if it can bring it down to ~30t.
Despite that, it only has armor to withstand upto 14.5mm AP hits (ref wiki). Not sure if it is adequate, but up armouring is going to increase weight.

K21 modified version with 105 mm belgian gun weighs 25 tonnes. It's already being done. So you have a ballpark figure of how much k9 is going to weigh.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 29 Jul 2020 14:15

Russian Sprut tank is only 20 tons and has a powerful 125mm smoothbore gun

Why go for heavier K9 with 105 mm gun ?

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 29 Jul 2020 15:07

Manish_Sharma wrote:Russian Sprut tank is only 20 tons and has a powerful 125mm smoothbore gun

Why go for heavier K9 with 105 mm gun ?

Elevation. John cockerill gun has elevation up to 42 C
Where as Russian sprut tank is 25C max . This elevation advantage is huge in himalayan mountain terrain.

Here is the video of the john cockerill gun with modular turret.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 29 Jul 2020 16:05

Manish_Sharma wrote:Russian Sprut tank is only 20 tons and has a powerful 125mm smoothbore gun

Why go for heavier K9 with 105 mm gun ?

Wouldn't it be nice to not have a salad bar inventory? Imagine the K9-based SPG + LT + ICV + SPAAG + APC + Mortar Carrier + AECV + ATGM Carrier + Command Vehicle... standardised, reasonably indigenous, cost-effective... but too reasonable, I think. Just too reasonable.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 29 Jul 2020 16:30

What is the max gun depression angle for Sprut and Cockerill ?

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 29 Jul 2020 18:37

pralay wrote:What is the max gun depression angle for Sprut and Cockerill ?

Sprut 125 mm - 5 C
cockeril 105 mm - 42C

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 29 Jul 2020 20:35

Raghunathgb wrote:
srin wrote:Converting K-9 to a light tank isn't going to be easy.
K-9 weighs 47t (wiki data). Going for a lighter gun would definitely decrease the weight of the turrent and thus the whole tank. But, not sure if it can bring it down to ~30t.
Despite that, it only has armor to withstand upto 14.5mm AP hits (ref wiki). Not sure if it is adequate, but up armouring is going to increase weight.
K21 modified version with 105 mm belgian gun weighs 25 tonnes. It's already being done. So you have a ballpark figure of how much k9 is going to weigh.

Please read this article by Sandeep Unnithan its got all the detail you need
K9+105mm turret will be a 35 ton tank

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ed6mYQMU4AA ... name=large

But I think it would be better to go for a 120mm gun than a 105mm gun

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 29 Jul 2020 20:44

I was looking at this thread in wonder, trying to make sense of our procurement mess and the Army's thought process, when it suddenly hit me:

They want a Light tank, medium tank and heavy tank.

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 29 Jul 2020 22:44

Raghunathgb wrote:
pralay wrote:What is the max gun depression angle for Sprut and Cockerill ?
Sprut 125 mm - 25 C
cockeril 105 mm - 42C

Corrected spurt angle

amitverma · Post by **amitverma** » 04 Aug 2020 17:55

https://twitter.com/ani_digital/status/ ... 2556457984 ---> Army to choose from Tata, American Stryker and Humvee for its armoured protection vehicle requirements.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 04 Aug 2020 18:24

What could be the point of comparing 8x8 AFV with a 4x4 tactical utility vehicle. Looks like the usual rigmarole of consigning indigenous development to oblivion has started again!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Aug 2020 19:12

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 81985?s=20 ---> Another picture of a mechanised unit during an exercise with a BMP-2, an upgraded ZSU 23-4 and a 9K33.