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Thakur_B wrote:At this point, I actually feel bad for ARDE/OFB. Just when they started innovating, they are being showed the door. the 7.62x51 AR-2 ws pretty decent attempt. The prototypes were shunned for high recoil issues. Looking at SiG716 and the old AR-2 videos, the recoil seems not that bad.
Dont feel sad sir.
The OFB burnt its bridges with the shoody quality of the INSAS.
The 7.62 itself - what innovation has it shown.
The gas regulator was changed in the Insas 1C based on feedback (after a long time), the milled receiver is not really an innovation unless you consider the tweaks to the bolt assembly as innovations
I presume these and some other cosmetic improvements were carried over to the 7.62 version as well.
I am not saying that nothing could be done with the insas. IF you see the work done on the SA80 to rectify its many defects then there was definitely the possibility of making the INSAS a decent weapon. After all the jawan will live with and love with some imperfections as long as it does its primary job of firing a bullet reliably and consistenly.
Problem is the bridges have been burnt to such an extent that....
Ordnance Factory of Tiruchirappalli (OFT) on Thursday unveiled a new weapon, an anti-materiel rifle (AMR) to be used by the Indian Army.
Defence minister Rajnath Singh launched the indigenous rifle through videoconferencing.
AMR is a large calibre (diameter) sniper rifle with two types of calibre - 14.5 mm and 20 mm. The rifle can be used in the anti-materiel role to destroy enemy bunkers, lightly armoured vehicles, radar systems, parked aircraft and fuel storage facility.
The weapon has a range of 1,800 metre for 14.5 mm calibre and 1,300 metre for 20 mm calibre. AMR has a detachable three-round magazine. “So far, we were importing the weapon from South Africa. Now, OFT has developed the weapon through our own research and development.”
Ordnance Factory Board, Kolkata, has received orders from central armed police forces and state police organisation
Ordnance Factory of Tiruchirappalli (OFT) on Thursday unveiled a new weapon, an anti-materiel rifle (AMR) to be used by the Indian Army.
Defence minister Rajnath Singh launched the indigenous rifle through videoconferencing.
AMR is a large calibre (diameter) sniper rifle with two types of calibre - 14.5 mm and 20 mm. The rifle can be used in the anti-materiel role to destroy enemy bunkers, lightly armoured vehicles, radar systems, parked aircraft and fuel storage facility.
The weapon has a range of 1,800 metre for 14.5 mm calibre and 1,300 metre for 20 mm calibre. AMR has a detachable three-round magazine. “So far, we were importing the weapon from South Africa. Now, OFT has developed the weapon through our own research and development.”
Ordnance Factory Board, Kolkata, has received orders from central armed police forces and state police organisation
That is the copy of the Denel AMR.
We already copied and developed the Vidhwanshak which was adopted by the BSF I think.
So want is new here?
The OFB is taking everyone for a ride by claiming "new weapon" etc..
ks_sachin wrote:
That is the copy of the Denel AMR.
We already copied and developed the Vidhwanshak which was adopted by the BSF I think.
So want is new here?
The OFB is taking everyone for a ride by claiming "new weapon" etc..
None of these "product launches" are making sense here. There is nothing new about the NAMICA either and there are no orders still. So what was Rajnath Singh launching exactly? Seems more of a dog and pony show.
ks_sachin wrote:
That is the copy of the Denel AMR.
We already copied and developed the Vidhwanshak which was adopted by the BSF I think.
So want is new here?
The OFB is taking everyone for a ride by claiming "new weapon" etc..
None of these "product launches" are making sense here. There is nothing new about the NAMICA either and there are no orders still. So what was Rajnath Singh launching exactly? Seems more of a dog and pony show.
The improvement is that the Vishwanshak came in three calbners and OFB have been able to "re-invent" the AMR in two calibers!!!!
All smoke are mirrors.
We will have another product launch next when they perhaps change the scope on top or change the colour of the rifle!!!
These "product launches" are a babu way of showing "we support ArmaNirbhar onleee" just like "we supported Make in India onleee". As nachiket says, just place the bloody orders for LCH, Namica, Helina, Tejas, Arjun to show you mean business, rather than all this tamasha
Nevertheless, I hope irrespective of weight we have a lot of these Anti Material rifles, they can be very useful in LOC clashes and can be useful on the LAC as well.
Vidwanshak was ordered for 100 nos for BSF - in UPA time it was claimed Army refused it because of weight( was it weight for special CBM) , if production has been restarted its a good thing and Army having it - it is really a good thing.. And BRF has been complaining for long we can reverse engineering/ copy etc. IF OFB is able to produce it with quality and good numbers, god be with them.
In Kargil these could have taken many Paki Machine gun nests from around 2Km range.
Prem Kumar wrote:These "product launches" are a babu way of showing "we support ArmaNirbhar onleee" just like "we supported Make in India onleee". As nachiket says, just place the bloody orders for LCH, Namica, Helina, Tejas, Arjun to show you mean business, rather than all this tamasha
Either the Baboos are taking 'Khadi Ninja' for a ride or he is willing riding the 'Electric Trains'
Aditya_V wrote:Nevertheless, I hope irrespective of weight we have a lot of these Anti Material rifles, they can be very useful in LOC clashes and can be useful on the LAC as well.
Vidwanshak was ordered for 100 nos for BSF - in UPA time it was claimed Army refused it because of weight( was it weight for special CBM) , if production has been restarted its a good thing and Army having it - it is really a good thing.. And BRF has been complaining for long we can reverse engineering/ copy etc. IF OFB is able to produce it with quality and good numbers, god be with them.
In Kargil these could have taken many Paki Machine gun nests from around 2Km range.
Sirji I don't think army is procuring these.
Secondly imagine the IA lugging this 25kg rifle up the battle area. Sorry not happening in that sort of action. Because of the nature of fortifications you needed to be relatively close.ro get a good shot.
In fact you go as pee WiKi, there is not much difference in the weight of the Indian copy and the NTW-20 from Denel. In fact ours could be lighter.
The NTW-20 is supposed to have a 2 man crew and the rifle gets dismantled into 2 pieces, each weighing 15 Kgs. Its the same with Vidhwanshak. Can be disassembled into 2 parts, each weighing 12-15 Kgs. Anti-material rifles if inducted in numbers, would be a good addition on the LoC.
If weight is the issue for the Army, don't know how they were planning on using the NTW-20 from Denel, or it was just used as an excuse to not induct the Vidhwansak.
mody wrote:In fact you go as pee WiKi, there is not much difference in the weight of the Indian copy and the NTW-20 from Denel. In fact ours could be lighter.
The NTW-20 is supposed to have a 2 man crew and the rifle gets dismantled into 2 pieces, each weighing 15 Kgs. Its the same with Vidhwanshak. Can be disassembled into 2 parts, each weighing 12-15 Kgs. Anti-material rifles if inducted in numbers, would be a good addition on the LoC.
If weight is the issue for the Army, don't know how they were planning on using the NTW-20 from Denel, or it was just used as an excuse to not induct the Vidhwansak.
Mody sarkar I was commenting on use in Kargil due to wt.
And adoption by Army this time around...as claimed..but is it ctually the case...
I agree the army should use it. However the Barrett M82 weighs about 13.5 kg all up essentially making it a one man set up.
Prem Kumar wrote:These "product launches" are a babu way of showing "we support ArmaNirbhar onleee" just like "we supported Make in India onleee". As nachiket says, just place the bloody orders for LCH, Namica, Helina, Tejas, Arjun to show you mean business, rather than all this tamasha
The babus can launch all the products they want but the forces will decide to buy or not. Mostly it's not. There is a big disconnect between three groups: forces that need the weapons, the guys who come up with GSQRs, the testers.
GSQRs are written by groups who are far removed from reality. They want Indra's vajra. The testers go by the book, i.e. GSQRs and will do everything in their power to prevent Indian made weapons. Meanwhile, the forces that need the weapons with what they got to get promoted to chiefs and do nothing to fix the problems.
The MoD sits idly by, passing files and collecting bucks.
The CDS should have a wholistic view of the system andd make the necessary calls.
mody wrote:In fact you go as pee WiKi, there is not much difference in the weight of the Indian copy and the NTW-20 from Denel. In fact ours could be lighter.
The NTW-20 is supposed to have a 2 man crew and the rifle gets dismantled into 2 pieces, each weighing 15 Kgs. Its the same with Vidhwanshak. Can be disassembled into 2 parts, each weighing 12-15 Kgs. Anti-material rifles if inducted in numbers, would be a good addition on the LoC.
If weight is the issue for the Army, don't know how they were planning on using the NTW-20 from Denel, or it was just used as an excuse to not induct the Vidhwansak.
Mody sarkar I was commenting on use in Kargil due to wt.
And adoption by Army this time around...as claimed..but is it ctually the case...
I agree the army should use it. However the Barrett M82 weighs about 13.5 kg all up essentially making it a one man set up.
M82 can fire a 12.5mm round while the NTW/Vidhwansak can fire a 20mm/14.5mm round. Is that a fair comparison ?
Aditya_V wrote:Nevertheless, I hope irrespective of weight we have a lot of these Anti Material rifles, they can be very useful in LOC clashes and can be useful on the LAC as well.
Vidwanshak was ordered for 100 nos for BSF - in UPA time it was claimed Army refused it because of weight( was it weight for special CBM) , if production has been restarted its a good thing and Army having it - it is really a good thing.. And BRF has been complaining for long we can reverse engineering/ copy etc. IF OFB is able to produce it with quality and good numbers, god be with them.
In Kargil these could have taken many Paki Machine gun nests from around 2Km range.
Sirji I don't think army is procuring these.
Secondly imagine the IA lugging this 25kg rifle up the battle area. Sorry not happening in that sort of action. Because of the nature of fortifications you needed to be relatively close.ro get a good shot.
Hence arty direct fire
NTW-20 was designed around russian 14.5 mm round. The 20mm cartridge is based on the same case. THe advantage that the 20mm cartridge has is explosive payload, which is really destructive on soft skin items (radars, light vehicles etc.). The 14.5 mm round is a very high velocity round and very effective against light armour. Really not a fair comparison against 0.50 BMG rifles.
This is really a niche weapon, really not meant for mass adoption.
Raksha Mantri @rajnathsingh launched the @OFB_India developed 14.5/20mm Anti-Material Rifle as part of the Atmanirbhar Saptah virtually on 13th August.
In a tender/RFI released in 2019 the Indian Army has requested a total quantity of approximately 1800 Sniper Rifles alongwith telescopic sight and quantity 27 Lacs Sniper ammunition in one year. @OFB_India has developed a 8.6 x 70 mm sniper rifle for this tender.
ramana wrote:
The babus can launch all the products they want but the forces will decide to buy or not. Mostly it's not. There is a big disconnect between three groups: forces that need the weapons, the guys who come up with GSQRs, the testers.
GSQRs are written by groups who are far removed from reality. They want Indra's vajra. The testers go by the book, i.e. GSQRs and will do everything in their power to prevent Indian made weapons. Meanwhile, the forces that need the weapons with what they got to get promoted to chiefs and do nothing to fix the problems.
Ramana sir, the forces have already accepted LCH and Tejas Mk1A, where are the orders? Babus have spent over a year already negotiating the price of a mere 15 helicopters, which is basically money going from one govt. account into another. A Raksha Mantri who is on top of things should be able to figure out a solution for NAMICA as well. Like asking the army tough questions about why they did not buy the NAMICA yet when they knew the Chinese had light tanks which could be countered using those. But he or someone under him would need at least a little domain knowledge for that to happen. Parrikar ji saved the Tejas by getting all stakeholders together in one room, hashing any problems out and most importantly making decisions. NAMICA should be child's play by comparison even for someone without Parrikar's talent.
Instead of doing any of that we are being treated to meaningless "launches" of already existing products and posts on twitter by the RM about how we need to be self sufficient in defence equipment etc. etc. The PM needs to give him a stern message to talk less and do more which he can then pass on to the babus under him as well.
ramana wrote:
The babus can launch all the products they want but the forces will decide to buy or not. Mostly it's not. There is a big disconnect between three groups: forces that need the weapons, the guys who come up with GSQRs, the testers.
GSQRs are written by groups who are far removed from reality. They want Indra's vajra. The testers go by the book, i.e. GSQRs and will do everything in their power to prevent Indian made weapons. Meanwhile, the forces that need the weapons with what they got to get promoted to chiefs and do nothing to fix the problems.
Ramana sir, the forces have already accepted LCH and Tejas Mk1A, where are the orders? Babus have spent over a year already negotiating the price of a mere 15 helicopters, which is basically money going from one govt. account into another. A Raksha Mantri who is on top of things should be able to figure out a solution for NAMICA as well. Like asking the army tough questions about why they did not buy the NAMICA yet when they knew the Chinese had light tanks which could be countered using those. But he or someone under him would need at least a little domain knowledge for that to happen. Parrikar ji saved the Tejas by getting all stakeholders together in one room, hashing any problems out and most importantly making decisions. NAMICA should be child's play by comparison even for someone without Parrikar's talent.
Instead of doing any of that we are being treated to meaningless "launches" of already existing products and posts on twitter by the RM about how we need to be self sufficient in defence equipment etc. etc. The PM needs to give him a stern message to talk less and do more.
Nachiketji
I think 'Khadi Ninja' is a Non-Performing Asset as a RM and not a like to like replacement for late M Parrikarji (RIP)
As Micheal Corleone says to Tom in Godfather : You are not a war-time Consigliori, 'Khadi Ninja' is not RM material and if there is war he will be a disaster! me thinks
I actually am positive about the role of RS-ji. I think what is needed is a change in mindset.
1) It is made clear that nobody is going to save us, we have to build a MIC to support our forces. Moreover it is made clear using words and actions that no foreign maal is going to be bought and all we are going to get is local maal. Which means (a) Either dont buy anything (b) Buy what they have or better (c) Work with them to get the maal which you want.
2) It is made clear to our MIC that they are going to be held to schedule, and they should drive their own R&D through exports and recycling the money back into R&D.
I think a list of things we wont import and showcasing what we have currently is a step in the right direction. I am optimistic. I also feel optimistic about the entry of private players. For them sales directly translates to money in the pocket. They will hire retd people, get accurate idea of requirements, hassle everyone till contracts are awarded, produce slick ads, plant stories in newspapers, and complain loudly if they detect a scam. Kind of what foreign MIC does already.
I am hoping that next step is to declare that if a local maal is being bought and if it is below a particular amount, the forces can make their own decision with their own audit without the involvement of babudom. So something as small as procuring a few hundred AMR does not go through signing in triplicate.
Anujan wrote:
I think a list of things we wont import and showcasing what we have currently is a step in the right direction. I am optimistic. I also feel optimistic about the entry of private players. For them sales directly translates to money in the pocket. They will hire retd people, get accurate idea of requirements, hassle everyone till contracts are awarded, produce slick ads, plant stories in newspapers, and complain loudly if they detect a scam. Kind of what foreign MIC does already.
Entry of private players is good but they won't last if they don't get orders. Bharat Forge has no orders for any of their artillery guns till now. Even ATAGS seems to be in limbo. SSSDefence is a new entrant and I hope some of their products get tested by the Army (no indication of that happening yet). Even the ones who do get orders are in trouble because of delayed payments etc. Read the letter which the head of Tonbo Imaging wrote to the PM. The fledgling private players will not last if the MoD does not support and nurture them.
I firmly believe in actions speaking louder than words in this area. The only action we have seen is the DAC clearing acquisition of the HTT-40. All I can hope for now is that the MoD does not spend several years negotiating the price and drawing up a contract and signing it in 2025 or something, which is a possibility given their track record.
Even for just sake of establishing credibility, GoI needs to start cutting some checks. What exactly could have gone wrong by ordering equipment that didn't meet all requirements? As long as there are no safety issues, users would have figured out something useful out of it. For example, what could've gone wrong by ordering ATAGS? Would soldiers have died?
Soldiers could have died if ATAGS is not good. IIRC during Kargil or Parakram soldiers died due to barrel burst. IIRC that used to be a problem with T90 as well. IIRC the problem was traced back due to power cuts during barrel quenching (people just waited the power to come back and resumed production).
But you are right. There is no predictability in the process. We need A/B/C/D, the developer demonstrates A/B/C/D and then orders are placed in quantity and payment is done on time. Somehow one gets an impression that such step motherly treatment happens only for local products. MKI was bought when it was just a picture on paper. T90 had overheating issues. But then ATAGS will be tested in J&K, Rajastan, In Punjab, In Haryana, when it is raining, when it is snowing, under water, and again in J&K because it was reclassified as union territory now and not a state anymore.
Anujan wrote:IIRC during Kargil or Parakram soldiers died due to barrel burst. IIRC that used to be a problem with T90 as well. IIRC the problem was traced back due to power cuts during barrel quenching (people just waited the power to come back and resumed production).
Anujan wrote:Soldiers could have died if ATAGS is not good. IIRC during Kargil or Parakram soldiers died due to barrel burst. IIRC that used to be a problem with T90 as well. IIRC the problem was traced back due to power cuts during barrel quenching (people just waited the power to come back and resumed production).
Which system was this? We never produced Bofors barrels at that time. Was this the 105mm LFG? In any case, it doesn't matter how good a system is if this is how OFB carries out production. Doesn't reflect on the system itself, only on OFB. One hopes a private manufacturer might be better at quality control because they would be afraid of actually losing future orders.
So what is the answer - stop OFB and import? Or to find the problem and solve it - improve QC, introduce QA techniques, involve private players, independent audits of the production process periodically?
Vivek K wrote:So what is the answer - stop OFB and import? Or to find the problem and solve it - improve QC, introduce QA techniques, involve private players, independent audits of the production process periodically?
All that you say.
If we want to be taken seriously the we have to bite the bullet.
To add to the above at NDA onwards start educating officers about product development side of things etc..
In a tender/RFI released in 2019 the Indian Army has requested a total quantity of approximately 1800 Sniper Rifles alongwith telescopic sight and quantity 27 Lacs Sniper ammunition in one year. @OFB_India has developed a 8.6 x 70 mm sniper rifle for this tender.
Looks like a winner.
For all the hate that OFB deserves, they have pulled up their socks in small arms design.
Insas mk1c and R-2 from RFI were failed starts, but the world of small arms is full of decent products that no one adopted.
7.62x51 sniper rifle which was earlier qualified for 500m range was later qualified for 800m and getting heaps of orders from police and CAPF. 7.62 sniper rifle success gives me hope for future precision rifles. If their .338 Lapua Magnum rifle does well, expect a .50 cal rifle on a similar chassis soon.
Their 7.62x39 mm TAR carbine is also decent.
JVPC is finding it's feet as well. Latest is that army is trying it out.
OF Trichy and SAF Kanpur have shown improvements. Time for RFI to match their performance.
SSS CEO said in an interview that they are from Day 1, looking at the international market because the domestic market has too many forces arraigned against a private player like them.
In China, someone like SSS would've had a different trajectory. The PLA would have (apart from sitting in their board), inducted 60% quality rifles, iterated over them, stolen/reverse-engineered Western maal, sold a lot of substandard mark-1 rifles to Pakistan/African countries and in 10 years would have a good small arms ecosystem
Over here, its the other way around. If SSS manages to survive and break into the international market on their own & if some Western country buys their rifles, the IA will be impressed and will include it in trials. Just like how Indians are adopting Yoga/Pranayama only after the U.S has embraced it
Rsatchi wrote:.......
Nachiketji
I think 'Khadi Ninja' is a Non-Performing Asset as a RM and not a like to like replacement for late M Parrikarji (RIP)
As Micheal Corleone says to Tom in Godfather : You are not a war-time Consigliori, 'Khadi Ninja' is not RM material and if there is war he will be a disaster! me thinks
To my knowledge Rajnath Singhji's Kadi Ninda has always been backed by action on ground by MAD-NDA, but not every action will be transparent to satiate the fervor of net warriors and armchair jingos.
It is the follies of western estyle educated audience who let their perceived optics be clouded by irrelevant metrics like: one wears dhoti-kurta as opposed to Bush Shirt-trousers or hindi-medium desi deen dayal upadhyaya gorakhpur university (masters in physics) as opposed to elite aangrayzi-medium iit-bombay/loyola or born in hindi heartland uttar pradesh as opposed to portugese goa, so on and so forth. Manohar Parrikarji has been a exceptional RM, but so is the current one (over a year old) who given his impeccable political background has an edge.
Rsatchi wrote:.......
Nachiketji
I think 'Khadi Ninja' is a Non-Performing Asset as a RM and not a like to like replacement for late M Parrikarji (RIP)
As Micheal Corleone says to Tom in Godfather : You are not a war-time Consigliori, 'Khadi Ninja' is not RM material and if there is war he will be a disaster! me thinks
To my knowledge Rajnath Singhji's Kadi Ninda has always been backed by action on ground by MAD-NDA, but not every action will be transparent to satiate the fervor of net warriors and armchair jingos.
It is the follies of western estyle educated audience who let their perceived optics be clouded by irrelevant metrics like: one wears dhoti-kurta as opposed to Bush Shirt-trousers or hindi-medium desi deen dayal upadhyaya gorakhpur university (masters in physics) as opposed to elite aangrayzi-medium iit-bombay/loyola or born in hindi heartland uttar pradesh as opposed to portugese goa, so on and so forth. Manohar Parrikarji has been a exceptional RM, but so is the current one (over a year old) who given his impeccable political background has an edge.
Examples?
What has changed?
What does political background have to do with defence?
Nachiket, Orders need budget. And RNS has made it clear no import for those areas.
He is like YB Chavan.
Don't be fooled by rhetoric.
His first important work was to pilot the CDS decision.
Next was to get the BVR missiles while on a visit to Russia
Push the Hammer purchase for Rafales to make them all round fighter planes.
Next is the no import list.
