Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 19 Aug 2020 13:59

Varunastra is listed as a heavyweight torpedo for anti-submarine capability with wire guidance and active/passive acoustic guidance

Anujan wrote:There were articles hinting that varunastra was only for ships and not subs

In 2016 it was not tested on a sub (that was planned only for 2017). DRDO also lists it only for ASW ships. But other articles talk about developmentof a sub launched version and of orders for launching against sub and ships

So the status of the sub launched version has conflicting reports. And the lack of the capability in 2016 may explain the 2016 report.

However, SUT is from the U-209 stock. And it is a heavyweight torp for both surface and underwater target (and can be fired from land, ship and sub).

Similarly Blacksharkis for all threats (surface/underwater) from land,ship and sub and has wire, acoustic and wake follow guidance modes. and swim out and push out modes. This is the one India wanted for Scorpene but was banned.

Because only ASW (anti submarine) was mentioned for Varunastra and because numbers didn't seem enough for 6 Scorpenes and ships, I implicitly assumed that there would be other heavyweight torpedos also to be bought for use from subs. Possibly with some of those advanced modes.

Now I'm wondering about the sub launched varunastra status and utility of a sub torpedo that is only ASW.

In any case Atlas Electronik will likely offer a version of itsDM2/Sehaketorpedo which has all swim out etc modes, wake homing, etc guidance and fibre optic wire .
While the French Naval group F21torpedo also has all these. Of course, there will be differences including propulsion chemistry, ECCM etc.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 20 Aug 2020 21:43

Per a AV report Vikrant aircarft carrier has completed Harbour Trials, Next step is Basin Trials which start next month, after which the sea trials will take place and it will be inducted (hopefully) in 2023.

mody · Post by **mody** » 21 Aug 2020 15:35

Varunastra is supposed to have both ship launched and sub launched versions. The ship launched verion has already been handed over to the Navy and order placed for the same.
The sub launched version was still pending. Don't know if the same has been tested or not. However, the size of the torpedo is matching with Russian type 65 torpedo and cannot be used with Scorpene or type U-209 subs. For the same, a more compact version would be required.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 22 Aug 2020 21:33

L& T AIP :
https://twitter.com/ThingNavy/status/12 ... 0025746432

John · Post by **John** » 22 Aug 2020 22:14

mody wrote:Varunastra is supposed to have both ship launched and sub launched versions. The ship launched verion has already been handed over to the Navy and order placed for the same.
The sub launched version was still pending. Don't know if the same has been tested or not. However, the size of the torpedo is matching with Russian type 65 torpedo and cannot be used with Scorpene or type U-209 subs. For the same, a more compact version would be required.

What are you talking about Type 65 torpedoes require 650mm tubes no one of our platform (ships or subs) can fire it other than the Akula.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 22 Aug 2020 23:25

Wiki says the Nerpa has 8x533 mm tubes. (Unlike other akullas which have a mix). So not even that.

Varunastra is 533m like all Indian sub torpedo tubes.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Aug 2020 13:34

There is difference in length between Western and Russian 533mm torpedos, Western Torpedos are 21ft long and Russian subs are 24 ft long. This has been deliberately done y both groups so that countries just don't mix and mash weapons are dependent on the Submarine weapons and parts as long as a Sub is in service.

It has been speculated that Varunastra is the Russian size and will not fit in our U-209 and Scopenes.

John · Post by **John** » 23 Aug 2020 14:35

Aditya_V wrote:There is difference in length between Western and Russian 533mm torpedos, Western Torpedos are 21ft long and Russian subs are 24 ft long. This has been deliberately done y both groups so that countries just don't mix and mash weapons are dependent on the Submarine weapons and parts as long as a Sub is in service.

It has been speculated that Varunastra is the Russian size and will not fit in our U-209 and Scopenes.

Western torpedoes are not all 21 ft long they vary in sizes, German torpedoes Pakistan Agosta use are 22.5 ft long, RN Spearfish is 23 ft long and Mark 48 is about 19 ft long. Because Soviet battery and propulsion tech lagged the western counterpart their torpedo tended to be much larger at around 24 ft not because they didn’t want torpedoes to be mixed.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 27 Aug 2020 18:41

Indian Navy is looking for ROV that can blow up underwater mines

https://www.spansen.com/2020/08/indian- ... mines.html

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 30 Aug 2020 21:21

https://www.theweek.in/wire-updates/nat ... rines.html

RFP for Project 75i in October.per this.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 31 Aug 2020 02:38

Security Scan - Boosting Infra at A&N Command July 9th 2020

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 31 Aug 2020 08:10

Barath wrote:https://www.theweek.in/wire-updates/nat ... rines.html

RFP for Project 75i in October.per this.

What a saga since October 2014 !! Keep our fingers crossed.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Aug 2020 10:43

I hope this dies an MMRCA-style death and we just induct 6 more DRDO AIP enabled Scorpenes. Post-which, we design & build our own SSKs

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 31 Aug 2020 12:15

Reports of an Indian war ship deployed in South China sea region post Galwan valley clashes.
Which ship would that be?

Me thinks its been done as a show of strength & intent, and also for testing out communication & coordination with Quad & regional navies. Such a deployment would most likely be supported by a couple of subs as well.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Aug 2020 20:57

First get the MCM vessels! We need at least 24for the many bases and ports.Add-on ASW eqpt. to various warships isn-t a solution. ROVs operating FROM an MCM vessel which would have superior sonar and other anti-mine eqpt. would be more capable.Just to nag one's memory,in '71 the IN in E.Pak did enormous mine-clearing ops using our vintage minesweepers until INS Bulsar hit a mine.After that,the Sov. navy did the rest.

The MCM threat given the huge numbers of PLAN subs and capable sub element of the PN will pose a very major threat to the IN in any future conflict. Instead of securing the basics,the IN's dreams of a 3rd. carrier costing $15B upwards ,forgetting that a fleet of MCMs would cost a fraction of that sum.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 01 Sep 2020 19:27

Philip : Every vessel in the Indian Navy can detect a mine - once

Also, between 2021 and 2022, 8 Thales Australia clip-ons mine influence sweeps will be delivered attached to fast interceptor boats; there may be similar legacy equipment for a few patrol vessels as part of the interim measure.

This does not eliminate the need for MCM vessels, but there seems to be no movement there.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Sep 2020 22:58

Ha!Ha! Very true.With the '71 experience of INS Bulsar hitting a mine in E.Pak,which put paid to our de-mining ops conducted after the war,the IN should've been more focussed upon assymetrical methods of the enemy in squaring the circle from a position of inferiority. Clip-on,heli-borne mine countermeasure eqpt. cannot replicate the capability of a dedicated platform,esp. the new totally built fibreglass MCMVs.,like the RuN Alexandrit MCMV reportedly on offer to us after the SoKo MCMV fiasco.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 03 Sep 2020 03:12

INS Chakra, INS Arihant, INS Arighat

https://twitter.com/thingnavy/status/13 ... 16615?s=21

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 03 Sep 2020 09:58

Surprising how SDRE the Indian Arihant is compared to the Fat-assed Russian sitting next to it.

titash · Post by **titash** » 03 Sep 2020 10:33

vivek_ahuja wrote:Surprising how SDRE the Indian Arihant is compared to the Fat-assed Russian sitting next to it.

6000 Tons vs. 12000 Tons. Same length but half the beam with a smaller lower power reactor.

When the fertilizer hits the ventilation, these 3 boats are the only assets that will make the PLAN stop and think.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Sep 2020 19:35

Where did this photo come from? Its exposing super confidential facilities in addition to the ships...

Note the second Arihant class submarine is already in the water.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Sep 2020 19:52

Google Earth updates the SBC in Vizag at least monthly. A lot can be seen there if you haven't seen it. And is it the 2nd (Arighat) or the third? Is the Aridhaman already in the seas (on patrol) while Arihant is back?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Sep 2020 21:51

tsarkar wrote:Where did this photo come from? Its exposing super confidential facilities in addition to the ships...

Note the second Arihant class submarine is already in the water.

That is from a satellite. And likely from Google Earth or some other similar mapping site.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Sep 2020 22:50

That is off Google Earth. I remember looking at that site about a 1-2 months ago. The covering doors above the under construction sub were not so widely open then - just a little more than the sail was visible then.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 03 Sep 2020 23:11

My eyes spy only two subs? Is my eye weak or brain too old?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Sep 2020 23:14

a third boat is under the crane

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 03 Sep 2020 23:28

tsarkar wrote:Where did this photo come from? Its exposing super confidential facilities in addition to the ships...

Note the second Arihant class submarine is already in the water.

Surprised that a knowledgeable person like you saying this, tsarkar. Indian Navy knows that tons of commercial satellites and military are imaging the whole earth regularly, they also probably know exactly when the satellites are overhead. If IN doesn't want our boomers to be clicked then they will hide it inside a secure pen and not moore it in the open. But in this case, it looks like they want to show that two of our baby boomers are operational and it is a message to others not to mess with us. Analog, a cat shows its claws only when it is threatened - otherwise, it tucks it neatly in the paws and fur.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 04 Sep 2020 00:39

sohamn wrote:If IN doesn't want our boomers to be clicked then they will hide it inside a secure pen and not moor it in the open.

Does the IN have such covered facilities for its subs?

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 04 Sep 2020 00:40

titash wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:Surprising how SDRE the Indian Arihant is compared to the Fat-assed Russian sitting next to it.
6000 Tons vs. 12000 Tons. Same length but half the beam with a smaller lower power reactor.

Somehow the mental image is to expect the boomers being larger than the attack subs. The Arihant truly is a baby-boomer compared to the big nuclear attack subs.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 04 Sep 2020 01:00

vivek_ahuja wrote:
sohamn wrote:If IN doesn't want our boomers to be clicked then they will hide it inside a secure pen and not moor it in the open.
Does the IN have such covered facilities for its subs?

India definitely had covered pens - but in addition to that, it is constructing or has constructed underground pens in INS Varsha and INS Kadamba.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Sep 2020 01:50

vivek_ahuja wrote:
sohamn wrote:If IN doesn't want our boomers to be clicked then they will hide it inside a secure pen and not moor it in the open.
Does the IN have such covered facilities for its subs?

It does have. At times, it is good to let your capability be known.

IN is fully aware that they will be photographed via satellite, when out in the open.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 04 Sep 2020 03:30

sohamn wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:
Does the IN have such covered facilities for its subs?

India definitely had covered pens - but in addition to that, it is constructing or has constructed underground pens in INS Varsha and INS Kadamba.

The underground pens are a strategic necessity for any nation with Boomers. We are doing well to have one on each sea-board. It is hard to find the right conditions for such a pen - you need a coastline thats deep enough for a submarine to come into the pen fully submerged (think a depth about 2-3X the total heigh of the submarines + sensor antennae) with high cliffs or cliff-side mountains extending to the sea, with a geological structure solid enough to withstand extensive tunneling, relatively impermeable to water ingress when tunneling is underway, and high enough that it can be 'cored out'. Also, large enough that the interior side is enough to support at least 10 subs at a time. Oh, and far enough from civilian populations.

I could find very few places along the coastline that actually meet these requirements - Karwar and Rambili being two of them, Gangavaram as well. Theres handful of other locations along the Arabian sea, but very few in the Bay of Bengal. Andaman and Nicobars are filled with terrain that is suitable for such bases though.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 04 Sep 2020 10:49

Indian Baby-boomers are a real win for the Indian Navy and for India. With three subs either on the way or almost ready for deployment, it makes for a decent second-strike capability.

Are there plans to scale the missile carriage count of these boomers with follow-on subs?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 04 Sep 2020 13:41

A 4* and A 5 are expected to be bigger with more load of missiles. At least A5 is said to be 12K+ Tons.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Sep 2020 13:44

You Mean K-4 and K-5?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 04 Sep 2020 15:32

sohamn wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Where did this photo come from? Its exposing super confidential facilities in addition to the ships...

Note the second Arihant class submarine is already in the water.
Surprised that a knowledgeable person like you saying this, tsarkar. Indian Navy knows that tons of commercial satellites and military are imaging the whole earth regularly, they also probably know exactly when the satellites are overhead. If IN doesn't want our boomers to be clicked then they will hide it inside a secure pen and not moore it in the open. But in this case, it looks like they want to show that two of our baby boomers are operational and it is a message to others not to mess with us. Analog, a cat shows its claws only when it is threatened - otherwise, it tucks it neatly in the paws and fur.

I initially thought it was an Indian aerial or satellite image that inadvertently got released publicly.

You are absolutely right in your reasoning given that we've multiple remedies available against satellite mapping of sensitive installations, this seems to be a very deliberate leak.

However while the subs could be shown off, the facilities could have been avoided.

The glass facade building left of the yard is ATV Project Office. The modules from various subcontractors transported via barge or trucks are put in place by the huge crane.

Even the Sukanya class OPV on duty is shown.

Even families of officers working on the projects didnt know where their parents/spouses disappeared.

BTW before IN inducted women officers in the 90's, lady Naval Architects and Constructors worked as Civilian Officers of the Indian Navy. One lady rose to Deputy Director, DND as a civilian officer. She was good for the top job but for the mere technicality that she wasn't a commissioned Naval Officer. She had a phenomenal international civilian career thereafter. I hope her story is told sometime.

mody · Post by **mody** » 04 Sep 2020 16:39

The second and third sub are expected to carry 8 K4 missiles, as opposed to 12 B05 or 4-K4 for the Arihant.
If the K4 has 3 MIRV warheads then it would mean 24 warheads per sub. Hope multiple warheads are being worked on.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 07 Sep 2020 00:52

mody wrote:The second and third sub are expected to carry 8 K4 missiles, as opposed to 12 B05 or 4-K4 for the Arihant.
If the K4 has 3 MIRV warheads then it would mean 24 warheads per sub. Hope multiple warheads are being worked on.

Multiple warheads would required miniaturization of size of the warheads. That would make them untested in the Indian context. You would not want untested warheads as part of your critical second-strike capabilities. I think we should count one warhead per missile for now, at least for the boomer subs.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 07 Sep 2020 01:55

Aditya_V wrote:You Mean K-4 and K-5?

No sirjee... I think he meant Arihant-4 and 5, accordingly shortened.

vivek_ahuja wrote: Multiple warheads would required miniaturization of size of the warheads. That would make them untested in the Indian context. You would not want untested warheads as part of your critical second-strike capabilities. I think we should count one warhead per missile for now, at least for the boomer subs.

MIRVs on a submarine-launched missile would be the clearest indicator that we have achieved maturity in fusion weapons. There's no real alternative way to get multiple warheads of reasonable yield a missile with a small footprint.

bharathp · Post by **bharathp** » 07 Sep 2020 11:57

https://www.yahoo.com/news/experts-join ... 07987.html

COLOMBO, Sri Lanka (AP) — A fire on a large oil tanker drifting off Sri Lanka's coast was extinguished on Sunday after burning for three days, as a team of experts moved to salvage the vessel, the country's navy said.

Four tugboats, three Sri Lankan navy ships and six Indian ships battled the fire on the MT New Diamond since Thursday. Five Sri Lankan coast guard ships and gunboats also took part in the effort.

anyone know which IN ships were involved? was it IN at all?