India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Sep 2020 13:12

Congratulations Chinis. You have your two front war.. with the world's 1st and 2nd largest armies.

Now will the PLA run to the west or east..

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 04 Sep 2020 13:17

Info emerging that the visuals are from a crash in China.

link

Confirmation: Not targeted by Taiwan ADS, it crashed in China only.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 04 Sep 2020 13:26

During Syrian conflict, Singha Saar used to maintain a map of areas of activities. It was updated regularly. Is it possible to do the same Ladakh region? Situation is not clear and everything is clouded. But we have to belive IA statements.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 04 Sep 2020 13:26

Aditya_V wrote:The Chinese can enter Galwan Valley from near Hot springs, Near Gogra area, thats thier path in.

I don't see it saar... There is no real direct route along the Kugrang river into Galwan, except up and over the mountains, or down to the DSDBO road.

That said, both Ane La and Kiu La are absolutely vital for us to protect... Any ingress from these passes has the potential to flank and attack from the rear our forces in Pangong north banks, and Gora, which opens up the possibility for multi-axis large scale incursions to cut off the DSDBO road, much like and incursion at Galwan could.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Sep 2020 13:44

No direct path to the Indian side of Galwan valley except via the Chinese side of the Galwan valley. Flanking of Galwan valley is not possible on either side for some distance on either side.

Gogra remains open to attack from Kugrang river side as well as Kongka La side. Ane La / Kui La would have added to the threat from a 3rd/South axis on Gogra. While we have positions around the Ane La and Kui La, it is better to sit on the passes and have a clear LoS into the Chinese side to pre-empt any mischief.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Sep 2020 13:45

See the road running along the river at 34.453835, 78.708650 on google maps

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Sep 2020 13:51

Yup ... that feeds into and from the Chinese part of the Galwan valley.

Btw, If I am not mistake, this path runs into the Indian camp Alpha III at its intersection with the Kugrang river.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Sep 2020 13:57

kumarn wrote:Unconfirmed Report : Taiwan ADS has shot down a Chinese Su 35 fighter aircraft after incursion in Taiwan's airspace.
By baba banaras on teetar

What is the Twitter handle?

kumarn · Post by **kumarn** » 04 Sep 2020 14:02

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/130 ... 90113?s=19

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 04 Sep 2020 14:08

manjgu wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
13 Kumaon sirji.
sirji.the unit was 13 kumaon but soldiers were ahirs from haryana. most of them from Rewari distt and Gurugram(gurgaon). there is memorial in rewari for 13 K

Yes. The Kumaon regiment is a mixed (Kumaon + Ahir) regiment. In 1962, 13 Kumaon was an all Ahir unit. Not sure what the status is today.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 04 Sep 2020 14:13

Su 35 crashed in China.
https://mobile.twitter.com/FrontalAssau ... 0812614656

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Sep 2020 14:25

kumarn wrote:https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/130 ... 90113?s=19

Why is he called baba banaras

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Sep 2020 14:28

^^ Old handle name ...

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Sep 2020 14:30

Many armchair generals like myself are coming to the same conclusion ...

https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 6318572549

We r in a better position now, no need of talks & give in to mutual withdrawal. Let status quo be maintained as it remains now. We will gain a lot with us sitting on heights in all areas.

https://twitter.com/MeghUpdates/status/ ... 7961837568

The Planning, Scale and Coordinated Efforts gone in taking aprox 30 vantage points from DBO (overlooking Depsang) to Black Top (North of Pangong Tso) should not be handed over on words of Chene

What India has done is no less than a Paradigm Shift

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Sep 2020 14:34

manjgu wrote:1) wsnt this lesson on 1962... hold lines at a defensible position... our dhola post was at the bottom of a fast stream with PLA sitting on opposite ridge...inspite of Brig Dalve asking for dhola post to be sited on the opposite ridge and not at the botton of a valley !!! 2) now our condition should be 'mark and delineate and sign the LAC once for all " else we sit where we are.3) the chini have always grabbed territory in such a way to avoid firefights and now for 1st time that is being challenged. Lets see if PLA is up for it..to get out of their heated huts and slog it out in the open.

Yes .. just a reminder to armchair generals like myself.

Even here, while they intruded at multiple place simultaneously they did not come prepared for a ~~full scale~~ even a limited fight as can be judged by their response AFTER Galwan incident. Instead they choose to back off a bit and induct more troops in the depth.

M_Joshi · Post by **M_Joshi** » 04 Sep 2020 14:51

williams wrote:It is inside Indian claim line:

Ques to gurus.
Why's the ALG in Chushul directly at the mouth of the Spanggur gap. If the chinis advance from their base in Spanggur Tso their 1st target would be this ALG rendering it unusable plus makes it an easy target for artillery from their side. There seems to be many flat spaces nearby which could've been ALGs. Not doubting the judgement of people on the ground who made the decision, just felt like it's in a very hard to defend location.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Sep 2020 14:53

https://twitter.com/ananthkrishnan/stat ... 2334779394

The Global Times, in an editorial in its English and Chinese editions, says 'the system that has managed the border situation for decades is now crumbling'. It doesn't, however, say who wielded the sledgehammer that has left this edifice crumbling.

Per the Chinese, while they observed it in violation only it did not crumble. Only when India did the same it crumbled.

Also highlights how perverse our foreign policy had become with China and previously with Bakistan.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 04 Sep 2020 14:54

Any truth in the news that China has fired missile in Indo-China sea?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Sep 2020 15:01

https://twitter.com/shatrujeet009/statu ... 8525193219

IMPORTANT UPDATE: It is now confirmed that India has occupied the strategic heights of Black Top (Kala Top) on the southern Bank of Pangong Tso and from here we can control Rezang la on one side and the Gurung Hill on the other side (chinese controlled).

Is Shatrujeet confused or am I confused?

I thought our control of Black top gave us direct control of Gurung Hill (on Black top side), Spanggur gap/pass and Magar hill (other side, perhaps still under Chinese control). Rezang la is 24-25 km from the Black top and there is very little chance of it being controlled from here, one reason why India had to occupy Rezang la / Rechin la.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Sep 2020 15:15

pankajs wrote:Many armchair generals like myself are coming to the same conclusion ...

https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 6318572549
We r in a better position now, no need of talks & give in to mutual withdrawal. Let status quo be maintained as it remains now. We will gain a lot with us sitting on heights in all areas.
https://twitter.com/MeghUpdates/status/ ... 7961837568
The Planning, Scale and Coordinated Efforts gone in taking aprox 30 vantage points from DBO (overlooking Depsang) to Black Top (North of Pangong Tso) should not be handed over on words of Chene

What India has done is no less than a Paradigm Shift

More armchair generals reaching the same conclusion ...
https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/13 ... 4806576134

There is no question of giving up our posns because they protect the left and right flanks of the Spangur Gap, dominate North Bank of Pangong and most importantly secure entire Sub Sector Chushul. We are saying they are well within LAC. They wont be given up

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Sep 2020 15:16

M_Joshi wrote:
williams wrote:It is inside Indian claim line:

Ques to gurus.
Why's the ALG in Chushul directly at the mouth of the Spanggur gap. If the chinis advance from their base in Spanggur Tso their 1st target would be this ALG rendering it unusable plus makes it an easy target for artillery from their side. There seems to be many flat spaces nearby which could've been ALGs. Not doubting the judgement of people on the ground who made the decision, just felt like it's in a very hard to defend location.

It is the only flat land around.

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 04 Sep 2020 15:30

From Vishnu Som: "...despite the over-all domination of Indian forces in the region, the Chinese Army continue to hold positions on Black-Top and Helmet..."

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/major-c ... e-bigstory

New Delhi: There has been a major force build-up of Chinese tanks and infantry forces in the South Pangong region of Eastern Ladakh after the Indian Army seized the initiative and gained control of several key heights in the area on August 30. Given the range of their guns, Chinese artillery would be located in 'depth' positions, more than twenty kilometres away from the Line of Actual Control.
Source have indicated to NDTV that the presence of additional tank forces has been detected not too far from Chinese positions in Moldo in South Pangong. However, the movement of Chinese heavy weaponry continues to be well sighted by the Indian Army ''which dominates the heights from Thakung to beyond Mukpari.'' This includes control of both shoulders of the crucial Spanggur Gap, a high-altitude pass that spans more than two kilometres in width through which tanks can operate.

The Indian Army has reinforced its own tank formations in the area, and deployed additional forces to shore up the heights that it holds along the disputed Line of Actual Control in the region.

By dominating the heights, Indian infantry forces are in a position to engage Chinese armour and troop formations with anti-tank guided missiles, rockets and other weapons. India also operates missile-armed T-90 heavy main battle tanks in addition to upgraded T-72M1 tanks in high-altitude areas in Eastern Ladakh.

NDTV has learned that despite the over-all domination of Indian forces in the region, the Chinese Army continue to hold positions on Black-Top and Helmet, two features on the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control. Multiple sources have told NDTV that both positions are within the range of Indian soldiers who occupy near-by heights and hold ground at the base of these features. In other words, any lengthy maintenance and replenishment of these Chinese posts would be challenging.

There has been heavy air activity as well along the Line of Actual Control with the Chinese Air Force stepping up its fighter deployment from both the Ngari-Gunsa and Hotan air bases in Tibet. The bulk of the Chinese fighter-flying has been done by home-built versions of the Sukhoi 30 fighter which also happens to be the mainstay of the Indian Air Force.

The situation along the LAC is "slightly tense", Army chief General Manoj Mukund Naravane said this morning, adding that "we have undertaken some precautionary deployments for our own safety and security". "In view of the situation, we have undertaken some precautionary deployments for our own safety and security. These deployments, we undertook along the LAC," Army chief General Manoj Mukund Naravane said today, referring to the de facto border with China.

"We are sure that the problem can be resolved fully through talks," the Army chief added.

Both the IAF and the Chinese Air Force have deployed electronic warning and support aircraft in the region. It is unclear if the Chinese are performing round-the-clock fighter sweeps in the region. The Indian Air Force, which is heavily deployed at multiple air bases across North India would respond to Chinese air activity by flying its own combat-sorties across the Line of Actual Control.

It is also unclear if combat aircraft of either sides have made aggressive attempts to lock their fire-control radars on each other, a prelude to firing air to air missiles. The Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria visited Indian Air Force bases in the Northeast yesterday.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 04 Sep 2020 15:35

The footage of PLA pilot lying on the ground is little weird because the people around him are seem to be maintaining a cautious distance and vigil sort of a cordon. If it is pilot of your own airforce - I expect people to be more gathered and paying attention to the pilot and just simplying trying to help him out.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Sep 2020 15:54

Why Black top is so important ... Note the view. Note also that while one can see the Rezang Lungpa as it drains into the Spanggur tso one can't see the Rezang La.

https://twitter.com/bishwa55900127/stat ... 0221809664

1/n) Black Top (aka Kala Top) in #PangongTsoLake of #Ladakh has been in news as being in #Indian possession now.. the view is wonderful from it

#Chinese road along Spanggur Tso is clearly visible and so are two #Chinese posts at Maldo & Rezang Lungpa and the Spanggur gap

2/n) possession of Black Top in #Ladakh makes this possible

The #chinese road to #PangongTsoLake south bank is clearly visible within 3KM range.. It can be easily interdicted

The net of taking Black Top is all activity on road from Rezang Lungpa to PangongTso south is visible.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Sep 2020 15:59

From what I understand, we have take up a position on the F3 ridge facing the Chinese on the F4 ridge. Now with our control of Ane La and Kui la, I feel there is a possibility to climb up one of the valley between Ane La and Pangang tso at the root of the fingers and over to the other side and approach the Chinese post of F4 from the opposite side i.e. the east.

Denis · Post by **Denis** » 04 Sep 2020 16:31

Deans wrote:
manjgu wrote:
sirji.the unit was 13 kumaon but soldiers were ahirs from haryana. most of them from Rewari distt and Gurugram(gurgaon). there is memorial in rewari for 13 K
Yes. The Kumaon regiment is a mixed (Kumaon + Ahir) regiment. In 1962, 13 Kumaon was an all Ahir unit. Not sure what the status is today.

All Ahir recruits from Haryana are still attached to Kumaon regiment. In fact there have been periodic demand from the southern part of Haryana to have a Ahir regiment in Indian army and the Rezang la valour is often cited as a reason for this demand.

I know this as I stay in Gurgaon and have business in Kumaon hills.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 04 Sep 2020 16:46

Rajnath Singh likely to meet Chinese defence minister in Moscow this evening

NEW DELHI: In the midst of heightened tensions in eastern Ladakh, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh is likely to hold talks with his Chinese counterpart Wei Fenghe on Friday evening in Moscow on the sidelines of a ministerial meet of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO), government sources said.

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Sep 2020 16:52

AshishAcharya wrote:
pushkar.bhat wrote: Not corroborated by any Taiwanese handles. I see this coming only from usual India handles. Including BABA.

From what I think, the best case scenario for India will be a Taiwan + USA vs China war. A weakened China will solve most of our problems.

False claim

https://www.freepressjournal.in/world/f ... ighter-jet

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 04 Sep 2020 17:35

LAC standoff: Tibetan community in Shimla cheers for Indian Army, waves flags as the convoy leaves for deployment in Ladakh frontiers
https://www.opindia.com/2020/09/lac-lad ... an-shimla/
In a video clip shared by news agency ANI, the Tibetan community living in Himachal Pradesh’s capital Shima was seen cheering for the Indian army. The Indian soldiers who were headed to LAC were heartily welcomed by the Tibetan community members who greeted them with Indian flags, Tibetan flags and white scarves.

Singbhai · Post by **Singbhai** » 04 Sep 2020 18:20

ramana wrote:
V_Raman wrote:It almost feels like USA wants a war here
Actually China chose this war. Think it over.

Most likely they will take advantage of US Leadership getting distracted by the elections. Even if part of the administration speaks about engaging with China - it's all focused on South China Sea. As the heat increases in US elections - expect the Chinese provocation to build here as well.

williams · Post by **williams** » 04 Sep 2020 18:39

M_Joshi wrote:
williams wrote:It is inside Indian claim line:

Ques to gurus.
Why's the ALG in Chushul directly at the mouth of the Spanggur gap. If the chinis advance from their base in Spanggur Tso their 1st target would be this ALG rendering it unusable plus makes it an easy target for artillery from their side. There seem to be many flat spaces nearby which could've been ALGs. Not doubting the judgment of people on the ground who made the decision, just felt like it's in a very hard to defend the location.

I am not a guru, but if you look at the same map in 1955 below. You will see Yula complex is supposed to be held by us. In this case, this ALG is approximately 70 km away from Yula complex and 120 km from Rezang la. So the ALG originally fed the troops holding these positions.

http://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/india/ni-44-09.jpg

There are some interesting tidbits about what happened to these areas in 1962.

https://usiofindia.org/publication/usi-journal/battle-of-eastern-ladakh-1962-sino-indian-conflict-2/

Bottom line: Chacha's Himalayan blunder is one of the worst strategic miscalculation of our modern times.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 Sep 2020 18:39

Hectic back-channel talks taking place in Moscow. Looks like no breakthrough despite mediation efforts

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Sep 2020 18:44

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 7293210624

Chinese despot Xi Jinping's Pakistan visit postponed says Chinese Envoy to Pakistan

Seems Xi needs to focus on India-China fracas first ... I am guessing. The Indian action must have hurt mightily but especially amongst this detractors especially coming on the heels of his Tiber vizit and gyan session.

Guess Xi wanted to end his Tibet vizit on a high note but instead the opposite happened.

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Sep 2020 19:11

shyamd wrote:Hectic back-channel talks taking place in Moscow. Looks like no breakthrough despite mediation efforts

If there was to be a breakthrough, it would have happened on the 5 days Brigadier talks. The PLA is probably in the docks for this letting us take over the peaks.

We have boxed them in to either both leave, both stay or fight it out! With back to back talks of RM, FM etc, our move was timed for it.

The question remains, if we are giving the Chinis a face saver...

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Sep 2020 19:15

I was watching a video on Lhasa. Something interesting, I noticed is that there were very less number of young men, in regular clothes on the street. Only place I found was young monks.

Lot of old people. So young men have been either "disappeared", or have moved east for work. Or they are still escaping in to India.

I get the feeling, that Tibet has a dying population. This might explain, why Chinis are desperate to get the Han's over.

It might be in our interest to get the Tibetans over on to our side and get them settled to guard the LAC against PLA. A populated LAC will be very useful for defensive purpose.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 Sep 2020 19:22

nam wrote: If there was to be a breakthrough, it would have happened on the 5 days Brigadier talks..

Not necessarily...

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 04 Sep 2020 19:23

I will not expect any break-through today during the talks between RM and #CCP Def Min. Once RM returns there will be additional consultations and then our formal response will be shared via Jaishankar to Wang Yi. My guess is that only after the meeting on the 10th Sept 2020 and an additional few rounds will we see any change in posture on the ground. I speculate that the WTC Commander has been told that with the latest moves by India things are out of his control and so Beijing and CMC is stepping in. So his boys need to keep talking and not vitiate the situation any further.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 04 Sep 2020 19:25

pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 7293210624
Chinese despot Xi Jinping's Pakistan visit postponed says Chinese Envoy to Pakistan
Seems Xi needs to focus on India-China fracas first ... I am guessing. The Indian action must have hurt mightily but especially amongst this detractors especially coming on the heels of his Tiber vizit and gyan session.

Guess Xi wanted to end his Tibet vizit on a high note but instead the opposite happened.

Pak does not seem to be cooperating, Violence in Kashmir is at an all time low - no `rivers of blood flowing', as Kashmiri politicians had warned.
Militant deaths are the highest for some time, as is the militant:security forces killed ratio.
Cross LOC firing is down.
PA has not made any moves towards the IB as far as I know, not even increased the anti India rants.
My guess is they are as preoccupied with Covid (lower reported cases only due to China withholding test kits) and economic bankruptcy.
If China does not use force against us, their credibility in the eyes of Pak will go down further.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 04 Sep 2020 19:33

nam wrote:I was watching a video on Lhasa. Something interesting I noticed is that there was very less young men, in regular clothes on the street. Only place was young monks.

Lot of old people. So young men have been "disappeared", or have moved east for work. Or they are still escaping in to India.

I get the feeling, the Tibet has a dying population. This might explain, Chinis are desperate to get the Han's over.

It might be in our interest to get the Tibetan over on our side and get them settled to guard the LAC against PLA. A populated LAC will be very useful for defensive purpose.

The difference will be felt when the PLA needs porters in the mountains. In India, pretty much the whole civilian population - with every village having someone in the army, is happy to help. If the Chinese want to recruit local civilians, they will find a shortage of young people, who will be at best sullen `volunteers'. Mountain warfare requires a huge amount of manpower - something IA figured out decades ago and an advantage the Chinese have thrown away,

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 04 Sep 2020 19:38

pushkar.bhat wrote:I will not expect any break-through today during the talks between RM and #CCP Def Min. Once RM returns there will be additional consultations and then our formal response will be shared via Jaishankar to Wang Yi. My guess is that only after the meeting on the 10th Sept 2020 and an additional few rounds will we see any change in posture on the ground. I speculate that the WTC Commander has been told that with the latest moves by India things are out of his control and so Beijing and CMC is stepping in. So his boys need to keep talking and not vitiate the situation any further.

RM will not take any decision on his own. He is good at chai-biskoot and too experienced to not make any controversial statement. Let them meet, it does not alter anything.