India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 07 Sep 2020 17:56

The good things about the Chinese mobilization is that there is hardly any space to maneuver along the Spanggur tso and/or cross over to the India side except at Spanggur gap and Rechin/Rezang lumpa/plain/valley.

Therefore, the troops/IFV/Tanks will be bunched up and easy targets.

idan · Post by **idan** » 07 Sep 2020 17:57

Or even 155mm artillery air burst will do

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Sep 2020 17:57

If wishes can come true, kill some and the rest surrender and Chinese social media being full of thousands of surrendered PLA.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 07 Sep 2020 17:58

idan wrote:All we need is an air-burst of a conventional bomb (like MOAB) - 10K PLA will vanish!

There is something called Thermobaric warheads. Should work out nicely if it came to that.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 07 Sep 2020 17:58

Hari Nair wrote:One point on logistics problem for the Great Hans in general area of Spanggur :
- Almost all lakes there are brackish, being endorheic.
- This means they have to tap into some fresh water sources which are not easy to come by.
- This means even drinking water needs to be hauled across fairly large distances, making their logistics line more complex.

True. Not many people understand that Tibet is a cold desert. The big logistics challenges for the PLA in Tibet are water, food, porters,
unloading capability at railheads & truck depots, vehicle maintenance ( larger number of engine breakdowns at high altitude), casualty evacuation etc not the ability to move a large number of men from X to Y on existing roads.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 07 Sep 2020 18:06

pankajs wrote:The good things about the Chinese mobilization is that there is hardly any space to maneuver along the Spanggur tso and/or cross over to the India side except at Spanggur gap and Rechin/Rezang lumpa/plain/valley.

Therefore, the troops/IFV/Tanks will be bunched up and easy targets.

I think the problem with the PLA's strategy is that in order to hold on to their gains at Pangong Tso and thereafter as a reaction to IA's activity on the south bank, they have massed a disproportionately large force in an area which is tactically less important and where the terrain makes any movement of a large number of people for an offensive operation difficult. They are probably less concentrated in the Demchok area, where the terrain favours some mechanised warfare and we can present a real threat to the G-219 and Ngari. We do have IX corps in Yol (2 divisions and 2 armoured brigades) which is dual tasked and can handle this scenario).

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 07 Sep 2020 18:08

pankajs wrote:The good things about the Chinese mobilization is that there is hardly any space to maneuver along the Spanggur tso and/or cross over to the India side except at Spanggur gap and Rechin/Rezang lumpa/plain/valley.

Therefore, the troops/IFV/Tanks will be bunched up and easy targets.

The terrain (and high altitude warfare) favours the defender.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Sep 2020 18:13

Deans wrote:
Hari Nair wrote:One point on logistics problem for the Great Hans in general area of Spanggur :
- Almost all lakes there are brackish, being endorheic.
- This means they have to tap into some fresh water sources which are not easy to come by.
- This means even drinking water needs to be hauled across fairly large distances, making their logistics line more complex.
True. Not many people understand that Tibet is a cold desert. The big logistics challenges for the PLA in Tibet are water, food, porters,
unloading capability at railheads & truck depots, vehicle maintenance ( larger number of engine breakdowns at high altitude), casualty evacuation etc not the ability to move a large number of men from X to Y on existing roads.

I stayed for 2 nights in a hut on pangong in the month of november ...we had to get up every hour at night ...start our vehicle for 15 min .... then sleep. Thats how we could start vehicle in the morning. Early november...it was freezing cold even inside glacier sleeping bags...

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 07 Sep 2020 18:14

pankajs wrote:I myself haven't read the report but someones commentary on the same. Tweet has link to the report

https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 0403975174
More than 10000 PLA troops alongwith ICVs present near flashpoint of Southern Pangong to Spanggur & Rechin La.

Most dangerous buildup since the Galwan incident.

Most mobilisation done after India took control of Strategic Peaks.
1. GOI obviously knew how China would react after the taking over of the strategic peaks. Still they did not per-empt the Chinese and go the whole hog.

2. 10k troops in ICV is like a planning for a human wave strategy of attack or they are fearful that IA will use the opportunity to make a break for G219 via the Spanggur gap.

Considering the huge paranoia of the Chinese I believe second point is the most likely cause.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 07 Sep 2020 18:15

The terrain favors the defender only when you are sitting on top of a hill. The Troops in the spanggur will mostly be in the plains. And as I said you dont need to kill them, just ensure they don't get Chow.

Please understand that 10K Surrendered Little Emperors eating Gobi Manchurian and Shezwan Fried Rice in "Jabalpur" are way better then dead Chinese Soldiers. We take good care of them and ensure they are treated with respect.

The kind of pressure that it will generate for the Party will ensure goodwill and high moral behavior for a long time.

Srikanth P · Post by **Srikanth P** » 07 Sep 2020 18:17

X-post:-

Xi is reportedly angered by Indian defiance along border

https://www.aninews.in/news/world/asia/ ... 907132338/

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 07 Sep 2020 18:22

pushkar.bhat wrote:The terrain favors the defender only when you are sitting on top of a hill. The Troops in the spanggur will mostly be in the plains. And as I said you dont need to kill them, just ensure they don't get Chow.

Please understand that 10K Surrendered Little Emperors eating Gobi Manchurian and Shezwan Fried Rice in "Jabalpur" are way better then dead Chinese Soldiers. We take good care of them and ensure they are treated with respect.

The kind of pressure that it will generate for the Party will ensure goodwill and high moral behavior for a long time.

We are now sitting on the heights hence my point. If you have to capture the enemy's hill, that will involve an attacking force massing on flat ground making them vulnerable to artillery, or their vehicles to anti tank weapons.

RaviB · Post by **RaviB** » 07 Sep 2020 18:23

Anoop wrote:
More pearls of wisdom from Ms Sun in Wonderland:
Yun Sun, director of the China Program at the Stimson Center in Washington, said Beijing had grown frustrated after years of talks that failed to make progress on a mutually defined line of control, while India developed infrastructure in areas that China considered its own....

“But what the Chinese found out is that the Indian negotiating position was ‘what’s mine is mine, and what’s yours is negotiable’.”

She's a CCP mouthpiece. She's echoing someone in the CMC, not her own wisdom.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 07 Sep 2020 18:23

Noted Deans.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 07 Sep 2020 18:24

https://twitter.com/evazhengll/status/1 ... 22752?s=20

This is a chinese video of SpanggurTso

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 07 Sep 2020 18:32

AdityaM wrote:https://twitter.com/evazhengll/status/1 ... 22752?s=20

This is a chinese video of SpanggurTso

Quite a find. Gives a idea of what the boys had to overcome to complete a deployment in a matter of 3-4 hours.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 07 Sep 2020 18:49

Spanggur Tso is the most difficult area for the chinese to defend if IA goes on a heavy offensive. It is supplied by only one road S301 which is very narrow along the Indian Claim line and chinese have limited space to stage their troops & camps making them vulnerable to Indian artillery and air attacks. Our experience in high altitude warfare and their inexperience will also play a major roll

nam · Post by **nam** » 07 Sep 2020 18:51

manjgu wrote: I stayed for 2 nights in a hut on pangong in the month of november ...we had to get up every hour at night ...start our vehicle for 15 min .... then sleep. Thats how we could start vehicle in the morning. Early november...it was freezing cold even inside glacier sleeping bags...

There must be a way to insulate the engine from the environment. May be some sort of insulating gel. Hope IA has asked DRDO to look in to such a thing.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 07 Sep 2020 19:23

nam wrote:
manjgu wrote: I stayed for 2 nights in a hut on pangong in the month of november ...we had to get up every hour at night ...start our vehicle for 15 min .... then sleep. Thats how we could start vehicle in the morning. Early november...it was freezing cold even inside glacier sleeping bags...
There must be a way to insulate the engine from the environment. May be some sort of insulating gel. Hope IA has asked DRDO to look in to such a thing.

More than the engine, it would be the battery. Those are notorious for failing at very low or very high temperatures. When vehicles first started being produced, they had a hand crank in front, which a guy could crank up to get the engine going. Maybe a secondary starting ICE system of a couple hundred watts or so output, which can be easily hand-cranked up, and which will start up the main engine.

williams · Post by **williams** » 07 Sep 2020 20:04

Some details on winter logistics

https://www.financialexpress.com/defence/india-china-standoff-gearing-up-for-ladkahs-winter-indian-army-gets-ready-to-meet-challenges-of-nature/2076737/lite/

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 07 Sep 2020 20:17

On the topic of the 5 men abducted in AP:

China has never recognized so-called "Arunachal Pradesh," which is China's south Tibet region, and we have no details to release yet about question on Indian army sending a message to PLA about five missing Indians in the region: Chinese FM spokesperson Zhao Lijian

williams · Post by **williams** » 07 Sep 2020 20:26

SFF soldier's last rites.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 07 Sep 2020 20:33

sudarshan wrote:
nam wrote:
There must be a way to insulate the engine from the environment. May be some sort of insulating gel. Hope IA has asked DRDO to look in to such a thing.
More than the engine, it would be the battery. Those are notorious for failing at very low or very high temperatures. When vehicles first started being produced, they had a hand crank in front, which a guy could crank up to get the engine going. Maybe a secondary starting ICE system of a couple hundred watts or so output, which can be easily hand-cranked up, and which will start up the main engine.

You need nothing more than a block heater with a power source. I would assume IA has access to these in the Northern Command.

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 07 Sep 2020 20:42

In case of further conflict, is taking G219 and G318 through their length a viable option to capture and hold before winter sets in? Too many benefits to count if we are successfu and not too far away that we cannot supply the troops.

Ashutosh Malik · Post by **Ashutosh Malik** » 07 Sep 2020 20:45

SSridhar wrote:The proposed opening of Pangong Tso for tourists by China is to establish 'sovereignty' through backdoor as the Pakis tried to do at Siachen in the early 80s.

India already has tourists going to our side of Pangong Tso for years. I was there 6 years ago. What are the Chinese doing differently?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Sep 2020 21:16

maybe they wanna bring tourists to F4 !!!

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 07 Sep 2020 21:17

samirdiw wrote:In case of further conflict, is taking G219 and G318 through their length a viable option to capture and hold before winter sets in? Too many benefits to count if we are successfu and not too far away that we cannot supply the troops.

Short answer is "NO." $hit will fly if we straddle G219.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Sep 2020 21:46

Ashutosh Malik wrote:
SSridhar wrote:The proposed opening of Pangong Tso for tourists by China is to establish 'sovereignty' through backdoor as the Pakis tried to do at Siachen in the early 80s.
India already has tourists going to our side of Pangong Tso for years. I was there 6 years ago. What are the Chinese doing differently?

It is Indian land, that's the difference. There seems to be already a sense of resignation that all that land held by China is lost and the only thing that we have to do is to protect whatever little we are left with.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 07 Sep 2020 21:49

pushkar.bhat wrote:
samirdiw wrote:In case of further conflict, is taking G219 and G318 through their length a viable option to capture and hold before winter sets in? Too many benefits to count if we are successfu and not too far away that we cannot supply the troops.
Short answer is "NO." $hit will fly if we straddle G219.

The threat to take G219 needs to be there, we cant have a purely defensive posture, that is bound to fail, especially since there are areas where we are weaker than them.

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 07 Sep 2020 21:57

abhik wrote:On the topic of the 5 men abducted in AP:
China has never recognized so-called "Arunachal Pradesh," which is China's south Tibet region, and we have no details to release yet about question on Indian army sending a message to PLA about five missing Indians in the region: Chinese FM spokesperson Zhao Lijian

In hindsight, it was very stupid of Bandit Ji to rush to recognize Tibet as an inseparable part of China without taking reciprocal favors from Chinese about Indian territory. The man won't have recognized geo-politics even if presented to him on a silver platter.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 07 Sep 2020 21:59

The paxi have a response SLA < 24h, their abbu jan seem to be taking their time to respond, next couple of dates to look out for are:
Sep 10: Foreign Ministers meeting at the sidelines of SCO event in Moscow
Sometime in October: CCP plenary session
What else?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 07 Sep 2020 22:02

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 948802.cms
India's tactical responses to Chinese transgression attempts in Ladakh left China stuck in quicksand: EFSAS

AMSTERDAM: India's spirited and tactically sound responses to the Chinese attempts to unilaterally change status quo along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) "has left China stuck in a quicksand of its own making that it can neither extricate itself easily from nor remain stuck in for too long," according to a Europe-based think tank.

India has taken a leaf out of China's book and has taken control of some strategic heights not only on the southern bank of the Pangong Tso, but also its northern bank, bolstering its position, taking Beijing aback, the European Foundation for South Asian Studies (EFSAS) said.

<snip>

"China anticipated much less pushback against its attempts since April to alter the status of the LAC at multiple points through surreptitious incursions into the India side. Spirited, tactically sound responses by India's troops have left China stuck in a quicksand of its own making that it can neither extricate itself easily from nor remain stuck in for too long," it stated.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 07 Sep 2020 22:10

OT maybe ...USS Nimitz a/c in North Arabian sea, message to Pakistan? Eye on Gwadar?

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/navy-se ... d=72851994

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Sep 2020 22:34

SriKumar wrote:OT maybe ...USS Nimitz a/c in North Arabian sea, message to Pakistan? Eye on Gwadar?

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/navy-se ... d=72851994

On its way to Bahrain from Guam through the Philippines Sea, Indo-China Sea after exercises with USS Ronald Reagan and navies ofJapan, Australia & India (the last one in the Andaman Sea)

Punjabi · Post by **Punjabi** » 07 Sep 2020 22:45

Has anyone seen this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYA50U1 ... e=youtu.be
Flying in a 747 simulating the current conflict! He says we are in a 737-800?
I'll let the Gurus opine on it. This dude posted it on LinkedIn as well.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 07 Sep 2020 22:50

Punjabi can you please have a human sounding handle instead of a generic one.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 07 Sep 2020 23:06

India's traditional posture is defensive. Our forces are not designed to be expeditionary forces. China very well knows that. And it also knows that defensive postures will not impose unacceptable costs on the aggressor.

What has it cost China to provoke India since May this year?

Military cost:
For a fraction of its annual defence budget spend, PLA has got a chance to test out its troops, equipment, tactics and logistics against what they know to be a stronger army, especially so in Ladhak region.

100+ PLA lives lost in Galwan - they have largely downplayed it, PLA might be rationalising it as the "cost of trying things out" or whatever excuse they can make up or tell CCP "we told you Indians are wild". Morale of the troops has surely taken a hit, but how does that matter when the punishment for ceding ground is death? Plump young pawn fed princes can be made to march on to their graves anyway.

Internal political cost:
CCP has more or less put a lid on it internally. Few WeChat outpourings about a bunch of graves don't really matter. If anything it helps identify dissident voices that need to be taken care of. Whatever is happening, is > 4000km away from Shanghai, Beijing, eastern sea board where China really lives. People's lives there are no way impacted. So for CCP, aal eez well, uh, mostly.

Economic cost:
What China has perhaps not factored in is India's economic retaliation, but given the trade imbalance, its little more than a pin prick. India banning tech & apps is a more serious consequence, with US further fanning the flames. But they seem to be confident that can absorb it. Tencent etc losing valuation is pinching, but it is pinching Amercian pension funds etc as well. Huawei was under attack by Trump anyways since much before. They seem to be confident they can deal with it.

Diplomatic cost:
With their habitual lying, propaganda, and having perfected the art of taking offence or feeling insulted only when they see the need for it, any diplomatic flak they get from India or EU or even US, is like rain on a buffalo. Wolf warriors will wipe off their faces and continue to sing the song.

Geopolitical cost:
India's rapprochement to US is increasing, QUAD is taking distinct military turn as well. If I were in Xitler's shoes, I'd be gloating about it. I'd take it as proof that China has indeed ARRIVED as a world power - so many countries have to gang up and put their heads and forces together to deal with China now. And nothing has happened since 5 months, Covid, US elections, Shinjo Abe's transition, summer coming soon to Australia which will mass migrate to beaches, and there will be more such distractions in the future for its distracted/courage-lacking adverseries. This surely stokes Xitler's ego, convinces he is right, and makes the whole game more interesting.

I agree with other posters that recent occupation of heights by IA is a locally tactically offensive but overall a defensive manoeuvre. It has made PLA pause and reconsider its options, this eagerness to talk must not be mistaken for any roll back intent, they are just buying time to reassess and try something different next.

Recent successes do make us feel good that we have broken out of some holding ground Nehruvian mould, but the reality is that India so far has not imposed any unaffordable, unacceptable costs on PLA for its adventure. In the larger scheme of things, these setbacks India has afflicted so far on PLA don't amount to much. Its a minor sideshow for Xitler which helps him get greater grip on PLA, weed out the incompetent/unloyal elements in PLA & CCP.

Unless India makes the panda hurt so badly that it feels like its paw is caught in the piercing spring-jaws of a bear trap, unless its survival depends on somehow freeing its mangled paw and limping away, this menace will not durably go away. Fix the Panda and the jackal to the west is taken care of as well.

morem · Post by **morem** » 07 Sep 2020 23:23

with respect, why is it that we think china always sees 10 steps ahead and could not have made a mistake this time around?
important to analyze from all aspects, but chinese are not all seeing, all knowing , they are human and can mistakes as well.
in addition, whatever manufacturing shifts away from them is always a plus and the chinese are not the types to gamble with money.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 07 Sep 2020 23:31

Quick question - if India was caught off guard against the initial Chinese aggression - then why did the Chinese not take advantage of this fact and push India back as deep as possible before we could muster our forces?? What was the point of stopping at F4?? Could they have not overcome the Indian defences when we were unprepared?? Why amass on the border and come in few kms which is even tacticly not very significant and then give India opportunity for counter buildup??

nam · Post by **nam** » 07 Sep 2020 23:39

The Chinis wanted to blackmail us to stop the road building, in return for allowing the patrol back. Hence they created a bigger drama with 3-4 intrusion, but only towards their claim of LAC, so as not to provoke a armed response from us.

We refused. Then Galwan happened and everything went haywire for the Chinis. We started economic sanctions. The Chinis thought we might as well keep the areas occupied, since we are not getting anything by going back.

Then we captured the heights. They have now painted themselves in a corner. Either they go back voluntarily or use force with potential blowback on a 3400KM line. In the first case it will be a loss of face. In the second one, they would need to get half of PLA in to godforsaken barren Tibet to guard a 3400Km line..