Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 31 Aug 2020 06:38

Cybaru wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
The Gulfstream 700 and the bombardier 7500 have far more range, ceiling, and payload compared to the ERJ line. If a new platform needs to be chosen, it should be where we control the radar and electronics and mate it with a platform for choice. Hopefully this time they order like 20 over 5 years or so.

With gulfstream550, we could have had a 360 degrees AWACS with conformal array radars on the sides and a big circular radar in the front and back.

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 31 Aug 2020 09:42

Blacklisting should be banned! We do this again and again .... and cut off our own legs. Blacklisting, banning....blah..blahing only hurts us and our military-strategic preparedness. We have to be pragmatic, not be emotional at every incident.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Aug 2020 11:11

Luxtor wrote:Blacklisting should be banned! We do this again and again .... and cut off our own legs. Blacklisting, banning....blah..blahing only hurts us and our military-strategic preparedness. We have to be pragmatic, not be emotional at every incident.

If the aim is to India disarmed so that we cannot take military action it works perfectly well.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Aug 2020 12:00

There are many ways other than blacklisting to "rap the knuckles", while allowing critical equipment purchases to continue. For example: Embraer could be told that they will be taken off the blacklist provided they pay a penalty that will be offset against the price that we will pay them.

But more importantly, the babus/politicians/officers involved in bribery must be punished severely & publicly, so that it serves as an example.

Blacklisting is the easy way out: its akin to arresting someone who makes a Facebook post, rather than putting down a violent Islamic mob

mody · Post by **mody** » 31 Aug 2020 15:10

Sir, for any other action other than blacklisting to happen, the charges and allegations have to be proved.
The money trail involved has to be followed and money should be recovered or conclusive proof found.

Now, give me 1 example of any allegations of corruption having conclusively been proven in India, the money trail followed and money recovered?
The only major politician to ever get convicted of corruption in India has been Lalu Prasad Yadav and even in his case, no money has ever been recovered.

chola · Post by **chola** » 31 Aug 2020 16:04

^^^ If there were no evidence beyond just allegations then why impose the blacklisting? HDW, Embraer and Westland are reputable firms. Other than India, they are not banned anywhere else on the globe that I can tell.

Obviously there were evidence to impose something as significant as a project debilitating blacklist. But the issue is they do not trace or rather do not want to trace as you say the money trail. So rather than open up the can of worms that would come from investigating babus (and the chains that could lead up to who knows what bigwig) we just fall back on the easy, expedient method of whatever is on the books about graft and apply that irregardless of the consequences.

Either go after and punish the people involved while imposing the ban or don't ban at all if there is no one to prosecute.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 02 Sep 2020 07:22

Rishirishi wrote:PAF with ~~better~~ more AWACS, 60+ F-16's and 500 AMRAAMs. I am not an expert on air warfare, but this kind of scares me.

Made a minor correction but otherwise agreed with all.

The thing that gets missed often is that the AMRAAMs are battle-tested in a way the R-77s and other Russian missiles are not. The latter are not weather-proofed for long carriage-times on-station and their real capability against an enemy deploying top-of-the-line countermeasures at long range is absolutely unknown. The Astra is a brand-new weapon. But watch how that will get buried once the kit of toys from the Rafale deal are delivered. Then we will purchase a small number of "gold standard" European AAMs while the Astra goes through a snail-pace production run.

Anyway digression on AAMs aside: the IAF "might" get two more Phalcons. Might. And after god knows how many more years of waiting.

All this while the local momentum built with the Netra gets wasted in wait of the AWACS-India airframe (the last part not even agreed for purchase yet).

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Sep 2020 07:44

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:PAF with ~~better~~ more AWACS, 60+ F-16's and 500 AMRAAMs. I am not an expert on air warfare, but this kind of scares me.
Made a minor correction but otherwise agreed with all.

The thing that gets missed often is that the AMRAAMs are battle-tested in a way the R-77s and other Russian missiles are not. The latter are not weather-proofed for long carriage-times on-station and their real capability against an enemy deploying top-of-the-line countermeasures at long range is absolutely unknown. The Astra is a brand-new weapon. But watch how that will get buried once the kit of toys from the Rafale deal are delivered. Then we will purchase a small number of "gold standard" European AAMs while the Astra goes through a snail-pace production run.

Anyway digression on AAMs aside: the IAF "might" get two more Phalcons. Might. And after god knows how many more years of waiting.

All this while the local momentum built with the Netra gets wasted in wait of the AWACS-India airframe (the last part not even agreed for purchase yet).

Ahuja sir. Did you just wake up from hibernation in a cold Michigan winter? Your scenario is playing out for real all this while and jingos could use some decent analysis.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 02 Sep 2020 09:37

Cain Marko wrote:Ahuja sir. Did you just wake up from hibernation in a cold Michigan winter? Your scenario is playing out for real all this while and jingos could use some decent analysis.

I have been ghosting the forum off and on, but work commitments are keeping my participating to a minimum. I try to keep an arm distance from the discussions because otherwise I always get tempted to go into rabbit holes of analysis stuff!

nishant.gupta · Post by **nishant.gupta** » 02 Sep 2020 12:46

vivek_ahuja wrote:...

Ahuja sir, so good to see you here. You are the reason, I started haunting BRF so many years back. I hope you get into the rathole of analysis soon

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 08 Sep 2020 05:59

India Needs More AEW&CS for Stopping Chinese Air Force

I know this isn't going to be popular in this thread, but between now through December, perhaps USAF could be invited to fly two E-3 AWACS along the northern border with China with a couple of IAF observer officers.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 08 Sep 2020 07:08

Mort Walker wrote:
If the IAF and MoD must spend money on foreign arms, then go for the AN/APY-10 radar and the E-2D Hawkeye the USN is using. This would be a very good small AWACS.

Mount it on a C-130 or something. It should be criminal to subject land based crews to the E-2D's carrier launch constraint environment.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 08 Sep 2020 07:08

Mort Walker wrote:
If the IAF and MoD must spend money on foreign arms, then go for the AN/APY-10 radar and the E-2D Hawkeye the USN is using. This would be a very good small AWACS.

Mount it on a C-130 or something. It should be criminal to subject land based crews to the E-2D's carrier launch/recovery constraint environment.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 08 Sep 2020 07:26

did we not know about the range issues with ERJ during development? the aircrafts parameters were well known for a long time. can we opt for ERJ145XR for more range/loiter time?

Jwala · Post by **Jwala** » 08 Sep 2020 07:45

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Ahuja sir. Did you just wake up from hibernation in a cold Michigan winter? Your scenario is playing out for real all this while and jingos could use some decent analysis.
I have been ghosting the forum off and on, but work commitments are keeping my participating to a minimum. I try to keep an arm distance from the discussions because otherwise I always get tempted to go into rabbit holes of analysis stuff!

I have been a big fan of your analyses and bought both your books; look forward to more insights

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 08 Sep 2020 08:53

Buy additional Netras in the same configuration and work on a new platform. Switch from Netras for additional orders WHEN that alternate "dream" platform is ready. Till then maintain working with what is available and works!

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 08 Sep 2020 09:15

^^ Agreed. Ordering Additional embraers will maybe provide us with new Netras in 18-24 month timeframe.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 08 Sep 2020 10:38

Vivek K wrote:Buy additional Netras in the same configuration and work on a new platform. Switch from Netras for additional orders WHEN that alternate "dream" platform is ready. Till then maintain working with what is available and works!

Vivek K, what does the photo in the center of all employees standing in a triangle with 3 Netra's behind tell you?

https://www.drdo.gov.in/labs-and-establ ... ystem-cabs

Question open to everyone

KiranC · Post by **KiranC** » 08 Sep 2020 11:19

Tsarkar sir,
It does appear to me the pic says : The Netras are behind us now, the technologies developed have been proven and standing on that foundation the CABS team is moving ahead in a committed drive aka arrowhead to newer challenges"
That's as best as I could guess

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 08 Sep 2020 11:23

HAven't 20 more Netras been ordered...I saw news the total number of Netras to be around 27 or something

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 08 Sep 2020 11:38

tsarkar wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Buy additional Netras in the same configuration and work on a new platform. Switch from Netras for additional orders WHEN that alternate "dream" platform is ready. Till then maintain working with what is available and works!
Vivek K, what does the photo in the center of all employees standing in a triangle with 3 Netra's behind tell you?

https://www.drdo.gov.in/labs-and-establ ... ystem-cabs

Question open to everyone

TDV... Tech demo vehicle?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 08 Sep 2020 13:00

tsarkar wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Buy additional Netras in the same configuration and work on a new platform. Switch from Netras for additional orders WHEN that alternate "dream" platform is ready. Till then maintain working with what is available and works!
Vivek K, what does the photo in the center of all employees standing in a triangle with 3 Netra's behind tell you?

https://www.drdo.gov.in/labs-and-establ ... ystem-cabs

Question open to everyone

Tsarkar ji, if that is whole awacs team then to me atleast that looks incredibly small for a project of this magnitude. This would then extrapolate into very limited capacities to pursue and execute multiple projects simultaneously. I assume they would be getting work share help from LRDE and others for the primary sensor etc. But clearly that's not enough give the scale.

nam · Post by **nam** » 08 Sep 2020 13:36

The size is fine, as their job is to specify the technical requirements and test parameters, based on GSQR. They are not developing the software or C3I or hardware themselves.

They need to know who can develop the tech and be the project management team to oversee the various vendors. If they want a radar of X spec, they will let LRDE know. LRDE will get in touch with it's vendor and get the radar created and hand it over to CABS, with the required specification.

DRDO job should be to do the grunt work only in specific areas, where Indian industries don't have the tech. For everything else, they need be Project Managers. Their private vendors will have enough resources to scale up the team if required.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 08 Sep 2020 13:50

tsarkar wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Buy additional Netras in the same configuration and work on a new platform. Switch from Netras for additional orders WHEN that alternate "dream" platform is ready. Till then maintain working with what is available and works!
Vivek K, what does the photo in the center of all employees standing in a triangle with 3 Netra's behind tell you?

https://www.drdo.gov.in/labs-and-establ ... ystem-cabs

Question open to everyone

2 have been inducted, 3rd is with DRDO for whatever they're doing with the platform. Fom DRDO's book The Incredible Journey of Indian AWACS.

No integration work with Airbus or whatever will be purchased next is happening because there is no other platform. They claim to have most of radars and electronics ready.

Since it's a mostly Indian system and IAF can make designers run in circles for as long as they want unlike foreign vendors, if and when new planes are selected and bought, it'll take 4-5 years of integration, development etc by CABS, followed by 10 years of user trials, subsequent "improvements" and purchase of 6-7 more foreign AWACS leaving no money for local AWACs. Then a token order of 2-3 will be placed just like it happened with Netra and Airavat.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 08 Sep 2020 20:33

With 3 on display - it tells me all development work is done. Pray tell us whatever else you can.

Perhaps not everything is in public domain and additional aircraft have been developed to make 3 of these available for the picture - if there were only three available and operationally deployed, they wouldn't be sitting around for photo-ops.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 08 Sep 2020 22:32

Thakur_B wrote:^^ Agreed. Ordering Additional embraers will maybe provide us with new Netras in 18-24 month timeframe.

Is embraer not on the banned list for new planes now ?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 08 Sep 2020 22:40

jamwal wrote:
No integration work with Airbus or whatever will be purchased next is happening because there is no other platform. They claim to have most of radars and electronics ready.

Since it's a mostly Indian system and IAF can make designers run in circles for as long as they want unlike foreign vendors, if and when new planes are selected and bought, it'll take 4-5 years of integration, development etc by CABS, followed by 10 years of user trials, subsequent "improvements" and purchase of 6-7 more foreign AWACS leaving no money for local AWACs. Then a token order of 2-3 will be placed just like it happened with Netra and Airavat.

I really hope you're wrong, but sounds about right since we've seen this with the LCA Tejas. The armed forces are at war with the government, where it doesn't accept indigenous products in a timely manner, and then uses national crisis for foreign acquisitions. It is unlikely India can win a war with China.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 08 Sep 2020 22:46

Sorry for bad image quality. Check this tweet if images are not visible
https://twitter.com/JaidevJamwal/status ... 1508264962

I really hope you're wrong, but sounds about right since we've seen this with the LCA Tejas.

Arjun, Nag, LCH, Marut-2, LCA, Swati, PDV, small arms and a few more.

Another story about honesty and efficiency of Indian weapons procurement program. Western nations blocked sale of Weapon Locating Radars to India after 1999 nuke tests. Pakis had these and nearly 80% of our casualties during Kargil were due to artillery. India then paid USD 20 crore to US for 12 such radars bought between 2002 & 2007. Same country which had imposed sanctions and supplied Pakis. Even then mounts were Tatra trucks procured separately. (That’s another famous story)

DRDO was given a budget of INR 20 croreto develop the same type of radar in 2002 and they had prototype ready in 2004. Army started it’s famous ‘user trials’ in 2005 and inducted first radars in 2017, that too due to untiring efforts of late M Parrikar.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 08 Sep 2020 23:09

Mort Walker wrote:India Needs More AEW&CS for Stopping Chinese Air Force

I know this isn't going to be popular in this thread, but between now through December, perhaps USAF could be invited to fly two E-3 AWACS along the northern border with China with a couple of IAF observer officers.

Interesting thought if something like that happens it would put tremendous pressure on China, because China would not want any type of US presence on their southern and western border. In fact China might stop the current aggression, at the some time PAF would be grounded to (my uneducated opinion).

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 09 Sep 2020 00:03

VinodTK wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:India Needs More AEW&CS for Stopping Chinese Air Force

I know this isn't going to be popular in this thread, but between now through December, perhaps USAF could be invited to fly two E-3 AWACS along the northern border with China with a couple of IAF observer officers.
Interesting thought if something like that happens it would put tremendous pressure on China, because China would not want any type of US presence on their southern and western border. In fact China might stop the current aggression, at the some time PAF would be grounded to (my uneducated opinion).

Who will escort these birds? IAF or USAF? Will they vector fighters if needed? Whose fighters will they command? Do they have the datalinks to tie into the IAF network? Too many questions.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 09 Sep 2020 00:26

The datalinks with the IAF may be in place after Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA) was signed exactly two years ago in 2018 in order to ensure compatibility with airborne weapon systems that India has purchased from the US.

I would speculate the IAF probably has Link 11 and 16 datalink capability because of the Mirage 2000 upgrades planned completion in 2018-19 and the recent acquisition of the Rafales. The French AF is flying the Block 40/45 capable E-3s.

https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub ... 105430-263

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 09 Sep 2020 00:42

Cain Marko wrote:
VinodTK wrote:
Interesting thought if something like that happens it would put tremendous pressure on China, because China would not want any type of US presence on their southern and western border. In fact China might stop the current aggression, at the some time PAF would be grounded to (my uneducated opinion).
Who will escort these birds? IAF or USAF? Will they vector fighters if needed? Whose fighters will they command? Do they have the datalinks to tie into the IAF network? Too many questions.

Not to mention a huge national embarrassment to a country that technically already fields mature AESA systems for AEW/AWACS but whose forces could not care less and for which a government procurement process exists only to sabotage homegrown products.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 Sep 2020 01:11

Mort, flights of fancy like US E-3's flying over Ladakh do not belong on this thread. Let's keep things realistic shall we? That article you quoted also does not say anything of that sort.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 Sep 2020 01:14

vivek_ahuja wrote: Not to mention a huge national embarrassment to a country that technically already fields mature AESA systems for AEW/AWACS but whose forces could not care less and for which a government procurement process exists only to sabotage homegrown products.

Look I'm all for criticizing the forces when it is warranted but it's getting too much in this thread. I and other posters have mentioned several times that more Netra orders are impossible because Embraer has been blacklisted. The IAF can do nothing about this beyond pleading to the MoD. From what we heard after Feb 26-27 last year, the IAF was quite satisfied with the performance of the Netra and would not object to a few more. They were even trying to convince the DRDO to hand over the third Netra which they were using for further development and testing.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 09 Sep 2020 01:22

nachiket wrote:Look I'm all for criticizing the forces when it is warranted but it's getting too much in this thread. I and other posters have mentioned several times that more Netra orders are impossible because Embraer has been blacklisted. The IAF can do nothing about this beyond pleading to the MoD. From what we heard after Feb 26-27 last year, the IAF was quite satisfied with the performance of the Netra and would not object to a few more. They were even trying to convince the DRDO to hand over the third Netra which they were using for further development and testing.

How is your above comment not a reinforcement of what I have stated?

1. The Embraers were blacklisted because of a procurement policy that likes to cut the nose off to spite the face.

2. The IAF apparently only saw the value in the Netra after the Feb 26-27 incident and initiated the equivalent of "start to dig a well when you become thirsty". Even then, the current plan (as of what we know currently) is to import two additional Phalcons instead of additional Netras (because of point-1 above)...or resolving the platform decision for the AWACS-I project. No pressure (publicly) to get the Netra program back on track. How am I expected to interpret that as anything but apathy for a homegrown system? Shouldn't we be seeing some proactive initiatives to get things done (for homegrown systems)?

Pointing out the glaring errors of the GoI is fair game on the forum (which is valid and correct, BTW), but apparently extending the same approach to IAF policies touches a nerve?

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 09 Sep 2020 01:28

BTW, as we have seen with the Rafale saga, the IAF has no issues in defending its intents/decisions publicly when it is fully behind a project near its heart. I have yet to see any such public displays of affection for the Netra to get it over the GoI ban-list.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 09 Sep 2020 01:29

nachiket wrote:Mort, flights of fancy like US E-3's flying over Ladakh do not belong on this thread. Let's keep things realistic shall we? That article you quoted also does not say anything of that sort.

Sorry, it's only speculation to shore up low numbers.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 09 Sep 2020 02:29

vivek_ahuja wrote:BTW, as we have seen with the Rafale saga, the IAF has no issues in defending its intents/decisions publicly when it is fully behind a project near its heart. I have yet to see any such public displays of affection for the Netra to get it over the GoI ban-list.

Second that. IF IAF really wanted the Netras - they would have been ordered. The blacklisting is a convenient excuse to not buy additional and then land in the current soup of being under prepared.
The Rafale saga is clear proof that IAF gets the toys it wants.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 Sep 2020 02:55

Well the difference is in the case of the Rafale, there was no actual scam or even minor irregularities. The whole thing was cooked up by a section of the opposition and the Government itself was on the same side as the IAF, adamant that there was nothing improper (which is true). In the case of Embraer things are a lot murkier. There may very well have been corruption involved. At least the government thought so and banned Embraer themselves. Two very different situations. The IAF would have to convince the MoD to overturn their own previous decision.

Of course, blacklisting as a response to corruption especially without any related prosecutions of individuals involved is a pointless and counter-productive response. But that is a different discussion and not something the IAF has any control over anyway.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 Sep 2020 02:58

vivek_ahuja wrote: Pointing out the glaring errors of the GoI is fair game on the forum (which is valid and correct, BTW), but apparently extending the same approach to IAF policies touches a nerve?

That is not accurate. The forces get criticized on various threads all the time. I've myself done that several times in several cases and continue to do so. I am only talking about this particular case where I fail to understand how it is the IAF which deserves the blame.