India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 09 Sep 2020 04:50

KLNMurthy wrote: Is there a sugary-sweet BENIS dhaga yet?

In keeping with times, there is certainly a need for a BENIS meme-factory thread for BRF. gifs that can be forwarded.

williams · Post by **williams** » 09 Sep 2020 05:29

V_Raman wrote:this whole waiting for 1st shots from India is silly to me. As suggested, they can always makeup stuff and go kinetic if they want. The reality seems to be - they don't want to go kinetic and are probing for weak spots...

+1 So far we have discussed why we don't want to escalate. We need to figure out why they don't want to escalate. Perhaps they are comfortable with whatever they have salami sliced so far and showing some token resistance to our new deployments. We need to squeeze more until they will have to either escalate or go back.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 09 Sep 2020 05:30

Shivji and Rohit Vats on the China Situation in Jaipur Dialogues.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 09 Sep 2020 05:34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnFN_aa ... BKtq_divgj

Sorry could not resist. Chinese military academy.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 09 Sep 2020 06:19

williams wrote:
V_Raman wrote:this whole waiting for 1st shots from India is silly to me. As suggested, they can always makeup stuff and go kinetic if they want. The reality seems to be - they don't want to go kinetic and are probing for weak spots...
+1 So far we have discussed why we don't want to escalate. We need to figure out why they don't want to escalate. Perhaps they are comfortable with whatever they have salami sliced so far and showing some token resistance to our new deployments. We need to squeeze more until they will have to either escalate or go back.

From all reports till date - neither side has crossed LAC and India did not want China troops so close to LAC. The key statement in one of the GT articles - we will never withdraw for avoiding war - seems to be the operating statement here. I am still trying to parse the nuances of that statement.

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 09 Sep 2020 06:21

Guys, with satellite imagery shared by Nathan Ruser, it seems PLA has some posts on the west of Black Top and Helmet Top.
Considering this, I doubt that we will be occupying the above two posts on their east.

With Nithin and Abhijit (based on satellite imagery) confirming that BT and HT are not with us.
Can someone shed some light on this please.

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 09 Sep 2020 06:58

On an esoterical but never the less might be a valid point...for our discussions on this forum at least, can we please not call the Chinese army "PLA"? That name has been used by the chicoms for propaganda reason as ostensibly this army being the liberators and protectors of the Chinese people, while they brutalize their own people and run tanks over them in Tianamen square when they ask for freedom and democracy. Let's not propagate the chicoms' propaganda. Let's just call it simply the Chinese army.

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 09 Sep 2020 07:19

Curtain Rod Army

KL Dubey · Post by **KL Dubey** » 09 Sep 2020 07:53

Davidrock wrote:With Nithin and Abhijit (based on satellite imagery) confirming that BT and HT are not with us.
Can someone shed some light on this please.

BT and HT are controlled by Indian Army/ITBP. Abhijit et al probably cannot confirm their own rear ends are with them, forget BT and HT. Can't shed light where the sun doesn't shine.

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 09 Sep 2020 08:07

KL Dubey wrote:
Davidrock wrote:With Nithin and Abhijit (based on satellite imagery) confirming that BT and HT are not with us.
Can someone shed some light on this please.
BT and HT are controlled by Indian Army/ITBP. Abhijit et al probably cannot confirm their own rear ends are with them, forget BT and HT. Can't shed light where the sun doesn't shine.

lol

Hope its true. well as time goes, hope light shines on BT and HT so the world knows what we have done.

But question is, the trail on the north of BT is 750m from the peak.
Nathan Ruser says PLA posts to the west of BT, which means they have traveled via that trail.
Are they so stupid that they will have a post where we can target them from both east and west ?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pango ... 78.6674404

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 09 Sep 2020 08:12

Haven’t seen this mentioned before but SwarajyaMag states that the lone SFF casualty occurred when the soldier stepped on an old mine, and was not shot or stabbed as earlier reports indicated:
in message to China, BJP Gen Sec Ram Madhav attends funeral of SFF Tibetan hero Nyima Tenzin

The open exhibition of the Tibetan Snow Lion flag is also a clear sign - that flag is banned in occupied Tibet, and its display gets you sent to hard labor camp.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 09 Sep 2020 08:14

Vips wrote:

Shivji and Rohit Vats on the China Situation in Jaipur Dialogues.

Shiv's thumbnail on that video looks like a arab terrorist from hollywood films

.

I remember seeing a video during one of the kargil anniversary. In that video one of the Indian army general comments that if ever pakis try that kargil occupation thing once again, we have capabilities to flatten the mountains.

If we have that capability, then even chineese have the same capability or better. Then what is the point of our army trying to hold on to these high points in ladakh?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Sep 2020 08:27

abhik wrote:As per Shiv Aroor the Chinese side's excuse (via the Brig. level talks) for carrying the stick knife thingee is about some martial tradition of the soldiers

Yes, after Galwan, PLA said it would deploy mixed martial arts specialists at the border. They hurriedly recruited some of these from a 'training club' and sent them in.

Jwala · Post by **Jwala** » 09 Sep 2020 08:34

tsarkar wrote:
sajaym wrote:I'm frequently seeing TV channels gushing about the SFF. All credit to the SFF, but what people are not realizing is that the SFF is nothing but the Indian equivalent of the mujahideen or similar to the Mukti Bahini/LTTE. The only difference is that while Pakis train their 'freedom fighters' to terrorist level standards, India trains it's 'freedom fighters' to Indian Army level standards -- and that little difference is what brings about deadly results!
Sir, please do not compare selfless freedom fighters of SFF and Mukti Bahini with rapist and looter Mujahedeen who enrich and satiate themselves on Kashmiri money and resources. The Mujahedeen do not remotely have the level of local support that Mukti Bahini or Tibetans have. Same for LTTE. Their fascist ways resulted in alienating local support resulting in their destruction.

Spot on; +1.. We should consider them(SFF) as another of wing of our Special Forces - hard as nails and capable of destroying our enemies IMHO

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 09 Sep 2020 08:41

rajsunder wrote:If we have that capability, then even chineese have the same capability or better. Then what is the point of our army trying to hold on to these high points in ladakh?

You are right, there is no point. Time to go home.

RCase · Post by **RCase** » 09 Sep 2020 09:00

SSridhar wrote:
abhik wrote:As per Shiv Aroor the Chinese side's excuse (via the Brig. level talks) for carrying the stick knife thingee is about some martial tradition of the soldiers
Yes, after Galwan, PLA said it would deploy mixed martial arts specialists at the border. They hurriedly recruited some of these from a 'training club' and sent them in.

Ah! You mean they got inspiration from the movie Kung Fu Panda? Like this ...http://www.kungfupanda.ie/jumpingadventure/

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 09 Sep 2020 09:50

chanakyaa wrote: Not that it means anything here , but it is called Da Dao or Podao. Perhaps a theatre put together for home audience.
The Big Knife (Da Dao) is an iconic weapon that even today regularly appears in popular culture outlets such as TV drama series, movies, books, mail stamps, monuments, toys and even graphic novels available for the general public in China. It serves as a stark reminder of national resistance against Japanese aggression in WW2 and an instrument to instill nationalism even in recent years.
https://zhongguowuxue.com/2017/12/23/th ... nd-terror/

The Forged in Fire series had this blade on broomstick weapon. IIRC one of them broke while testing.

This shows the level of thinking of the bateaters. Remember the movie 'demolition man' and the SOPs of the police force?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Sep 2020 10:10

Good one KK,the " Xitler youth"! The yellow Xitler and his neo-Nazi bumchums are bleating and braying when they get the sharp end of the stick in the immortal words of Cpl.Jones "up 'em!"

Moreover,Xitler and his tribe sholuldn't rate the IA by Paki standards,where Pakis take PRC/ PLA thrashings without retaliating!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 09 Sep 2020 10:17

This is in HT, it is a congi mouthpiece, something deeper is happening to unseat the Govt.

PLA territorial violations since July not limited to eastern Ladakh: Intel

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 09 Sep 2020 10:18

Suraj wrote:Haven’t seen this mentioned before but SwarajyaMag states that the lone SFF casualty occurred when the soldier stepped on an old mine, and was not shot or stabbed as earlier reports indicated:
in message to China, BJP Gen Sec Ram Madhav attends funeral of SFF Tibetan hero Nyima Tenzin

The open exhibition of the Tibetan Snow Lion flag is also a clear sign - that flag is banned in occupied Tibet, and its display gets you sent to hard labor camp.

Suraj, IIRC, there have been posts in the earlier version of this thread about a dislodged anti-personal mine of 1962-vintage causing the death.

The Snow Lion flag needs to be in lot more places than it is currently. Like I said, we need a meme/graphics thread. This freedom fight against the bad guys of Beijing* is going to be long
___________________
* adopting khanish language has its advantages

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Sep 2020 10:36

Yes,probably true. Typical of the inscrutable oriental to keep us guessing.Was probably done to deflect attention to the Galwan gambit,which was the plan. It is impossible to defend every inch of the border,no sane Indian expects that.Neither do the overwhelming majority worry too much about incursions provided the enemy returns or retreats.We know we can give much more than we can and will strike when the time is opportune.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 09 Sep 2020 10:38

SSridhar wrote: Yes, after Galwan, PLA said it would deploy mixed martial arts specialists at the border. They hurriedly recruited some of these from a 'training club' and sent them in.

SSridhar, apparently the chinese internets had a few pics of the chattukam-wielders to much applause. That IA lasso-story should be circulated, insha-mao.

We should sent our own Xi-fu jee, the famous Indian Army Kung Phoo trainer to the border. Him doing a Spreadie-to-Yamaraj at Kala Top is going to show them we are not underestimating them, as Gobar Times seem to

daily about.

We were always saving Shi-fu jee for a special occasion, and this is it.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 09 Sep 2020 10:55

hnair wrote: The Snow Lion flag needs to be in lot more places than it is currently. Like I said, we need a meme/graphics thread. This freedom fight against the bad guys of Beijing* is going to be long
___________________
* adopting khanish language has its advantages

Indeed we must . While one would expect the Chinese to be outraged at the open display of the Snowlion flag, they are also being smart about the potential of a Streisand Effect from reacting strongly:
China appears to play down participation of Tibetan soldiers in Indian military operation in Ladakh

The Chinese are keenly aware that a sledgehammer approach to the Tibetan participators has the potential to unravel very rapidly for them. They sit upon an enormous province whose native population may entirely side with the nation across the border in wartime. Mountain warfare requires logistics that as has been mentioned here, both the Ladakhis and Tibetans are gratefully offering the Indian armed forces.

Correspondingly, India has the potential to unravel Tibet out of China in a matter of years by compelling the Chinese to do what they do best - overreact . So far they’ve been careful and smart, but there’s only so much they can take of the sight of open sedition against them from the occupied buffer state that sits between them and us.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 09 Sep 2020 10:55

We should show surya poster as bhodidarma from movie - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7aum_Arivu

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 09 Sep 2020 10:57

nachiket wrote: But they have now claimed that we did fire shots, which we have denied. If that is the casus belli they were waiting for, they already have it, as per their own statement.

may be they want us to fire a few more times.

"You all did see that on the Lupercal
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse. Was this ambition?"

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 09 Sep 2020 11:16

https://twitter.com/MandeepBajwa/status ... 5740781568

The situation south of the Pangong Tso is getting getting graver and graver. There are indications of a full-out Chinese attack in the offing

Denis · Post by **Denis** » 09 Sep 2020 11:22

Vayutuvan wrote:
nachiket wrote: But they have now claimed that we did fire shots, which we have denied. If that is the casus belli they were waiting for, they already have it, as per their own statement.
may be they want us to fire a few more times.

"You all did see that on the Lupercal
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse. Was this ambition?"

Even if they want to show the world,6 the virtue of their patience by saying that they were provoked thrice by Indians firing in the air before being compelled to go kinetic, they can still claim that to be the case and go ahead. Even if no shots are fired, they can always state that to be the case and go kinetic. There are no neutral umpires observing ball by ball proceedings at LAC, that can overrule their propaganda to be afraid of.

And Yet, they crib /wail /cry/ threaten and cajole but not take the next step. Either they do not have an appetite for it,or they are waiting for something

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Sep 2020 11:36

Suraj wrote:
hnair wrote: The Snow Lion flag needs to be in lot more places than it is currently. Like I said, we need a meme/graphics thread. This freedom fight against the bad guys of Beijing* is going to be long
Indeed we must . . . .The Chinese are keenly aware that a sledgehammer approach to the Tibetan participators has the potential to unravel very rapidly for them. . . So far they’ve been careful and smart, but there’s only so much they can take of the sight of open sedition against them from the occupied buffer state that sits between them and us.

Yes, indeed. The Chinese might have got wind of SFF much earlier than Aug 28/29 and that was probably the reason there were several top-level visits to Tibet all of a sudden, starting from Wang Yang (Member, PSC & Chairman of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference), then Hu Chunhua (Vice-Premier & Member Politburo) followed by Wang Yi. This was certainly unusual because Tibet doesn't merit that attention in Chinese eyes. Then, a huge infra upgrade was announced by Xi himself. He also mentioned making Tibet an "impregnable fortress".

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Sep 2020 11:45

Denis wrote:Even if no shots are fired, they can always state that to be the case and go kinetic. There are no neutral umpires observing ball by ball proceedings at LAC, that can overrule their propaganda to be afraid of.

Yes. The Chinese are inveterate liars. They used to claim that UNSC 1267 Committee was divided on Masood Azhar when we knew that only China was against it. Similarly in NSG. Then on the Kashmir issue its UNSC meeting call was roundly rejected by all and yet Chinese Ambassador came out and said it was discussed. I have many times felt that the so-called diplomatic-brilliance of the Chinese was simply laughable. If China isn't aware that except NoKo and Pakistan, nobody believes them, even God can't save them.

And Yet, they crib /wail /cry/ threaten and cajole but not take the next step. Either they do not have an appetite for it,or they are waiting for something

They may be waiting for the US elections period.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Sep 2020 11:56

Or they may be waiting for Oct-20 when the US is too busy with the Presidential elections.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 09 Sep 2020 12:14

SSridhar wrote:Yes, indeed. The Chinese might have got wind of SFF much earlier than Aug 28/29 and that was probably the reason there were several top-level visits to Tibet all of a sudden, starting from Wang Yang (Member, PSC & Chairman of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference), then Hu Chunhua (Vice-Premier & Member Politburo) followed by Wang Yi. This was certainly unusual because Tibet doesn't merit that attention in Chinese eyes. Then, a huge infra upgrade was announced by Xi himself. He also mentioned making Tibet an "impregnable fortress".

Interesting high level visits indeed. I'm not sure the SFF thing is new to them. It's been around for decades after all. Of course, its use in frontline LAC role in a public manner is new.

The Chinese are in an interesting situation. Even a huge infra update doesn't change the fact that the locals of that area are more likely to be members of the other sides armed forces than their own. There's no chance the Chinese could ever trust an ethnic Tibetan to lead their border regiments. As such, infra investments are simply an unimaginative 'more of the same' response from them.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 09 Sep 2020 12:16

After India took the heights in South Pangong, it is expected that China will mount some kind of operation to dislodge IA from the heights.

The question is can India try an operation to evict them from finger 4 and Gogra area?

williams · Post by **williams** » 09 Sep 2020 12:31

The problem for India is that any military operation that has the theme of pushing the Chinese to a certain line of control legitimizes that line. If there is a shooting war, India needs to maximize its position so that there is a negotiated settlement of the border. So the goal of any kind of military operation should be a final settlement of the border. Defining that maximalist position is going be a tough problem.

Now the mood around the world is a lot of anger with the Chinese. So even if Biden wins, he needs to act tough on China. So diplomatically, this is the best time for India to opt for aggressive action. I think China knows that and that is why they are looking for small tactical gain without a shooting war.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Sep 2020 12:35

Aditya_V wrote:Or they may be waiting for Oct-20 when the US is too busy with the Presidential elections.

The longer each side waits, the harder it is to physically dislodge the other as the weather will get worse. Artillery, missile, airpower are a different matter though.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 09 Sep 2020 12:36

csharma wrote:After India took the heights in South Pangong, it is expected that China will mount some kind of operation to dislodge IA from the heights.

The question is can India try an operation to evict them from finger 4 and Gogra area?

Kargil was different. Dynamics here are different and so is the adversary. Therefore the approach to deal with them will differ.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 09 Sep 2020 12:49

What is BENIS ?

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 09 Sep 2020 12:53

In a political context, china from leadership to core is just a bigger version of North Korea. See them as such and treat them as such.

RCase · Post by **RCase** » 09 Sep 2020 12:59

amar_p wrote:What is BENIS ?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6901

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 09 Sep 2020 13:03

There was this topographical model Ladakh area in Gobi desert IIRC. I wonder if it was same area.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 09 Sep 2020 13:08

Is this old news being rehashed?
China plotting big conspiracy against India as it deploys three battalions along LAC

Amid the simmering tensions between Indian and Chinese troops at Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh, China has started deploying its soldiers in large numbers near the LAC.

On September 1, China had deployed a battalion of the PLA Ground Force near Rechin La at LAC and has also deployed two battalions near the Spangur lake. All of these are part of the 62 Combined Arms Brigade present at Shikwan.

It is to be noted that Indian Army had succeeded in capturing Rechin La and Rezang La on August 29-30. From here the Indian Army can also keep an eye on Moldo Cantonment of China and PLA troops are now looking for opportunities to re-occupy these peaks of strategic importance.

China has also deployed two motorized divisions in Ladakh.The 4th Motorized Division is deployed in front of Chushul and the 6th Motorized Division is present from the west side of Pangong to Daulat Beg Oldi.