India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 12 Sep 2020 15:31

Aditya_V wrote:True unfortunately parts of Indian media and some brainless parts of our opposition are compromised and openly stating Chinese propaganda.

Welcome........to Democrazy

nishant.gupta · Post by **nishant.gupta** » 12 Sep 2020 15:39

jamwal wrote:Am I the only one who is wondering why are we negotiating over LAC ? Take a look at all official maps of India and statements of multiple PMs and Presidents, all claiming whole of J&K including PoJK and CoL (Aksai Chi, Sinkiang) as integral parts of India; Bharat ka atoot ang.

We are now having talks about perceptions of LAC as if it's some modern day gender fluid SJW who claims that he is 30% male 40% female and rest being variable as per mood, environment and needs. What's stopping India from de-recognizing One China policy, give acknowldgement to Tibet as an independent country and talk about Aksasi Chin as Indian territory instead of this ours and their perception thing ? Chinese are doing the exact same thing and this overwhelming desire of playing the good boy is still strong with Indians.

You are absolutely correct Jamwal ji but I hopefully believe that this will change as soon as the first proper skirmish begins. Since we have always - irrespective of which government was in power - clearly stated our International border, if push comes to shove, we would not stop at the beginning of 2020 but go all the way to what we claim to be rightfully ours. Else we cannot really claim a victory. On the other hand, we will have quietly agreed that we will never think of CoK as ours.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Sep 2020 15:41

jamwal wrote: . . . and talk about Aksasi Chin as Indian territory . . .

I think that was said by HM Amit Shah on August 5 last year, wasn't it? That was what angered China because nobody before him had done so.

The unanimous resolution of Feb. 22, 1994 said this:

The State of Jammu & Kashmir has been, is and shall be an integral part of India and any attempts to separate it from the rest of the country will be resisted by all necessary means;

(b) India has the will and capacity to firmly counter all designs against its unity, sovereignty and territorial integrity;

and demands that -

(c) Pakistan must vacate the areas of the Indian State of Jammu and Kashmir, which they have occupied through aggression; and resolves that -

(d) all attempts to interfere in the internal affairs of India will be met resolutely."

I think we have to have a more suitable one now that included China.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 12 Sep 2020 15:52

Has anybody fought a war with a 3000 km logistic tail against a strong adversary before, not including 1962? US has bases all over the world and it's supply chain is much longer spanning continents, but its a far bigger power which fights against small nations usually with power allies on its side.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 12 Sep 2020 15:53

There's been about a week of Lull. Expect the Chinese to try something new this week.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 12 Sep 2020 16:07

hanumadu wrote:Has anybody fought a war with a 3000 km logistic tail against a strong adversary before, not including 1962? US has bases all over the world and it's supply chain is much longer spanning continents, but its a far bigger power which fights against small nations usually with power allies on its side.

Chinese logistic trail is a lot longer than Indian. Additionally, if you are not going to defend your own territory, then might as well become a vassal. What's the point of staying as an independent country and making such grand statements about territorial integrity ?

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 12 Sep 2020 16:14

jamwal wrote:
hanumadu wrote:Has anybody fought a war with a 3000 km logistic tail against a strong adversary before, not including 1962? US has bases all over the world and it's supply chain is much longer spanning continents, but its a far bigger power which fights against small nations usually with power allies on its side.
Chinese logistic trail is a lot longer than Indian. Additionally, if you are not going to defend your own territory, then might as well become a vassal. What's the point of staying as an independent country and making such grand statements about territorial integrity ?

I am talking about the chinese logistics only.

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 12 Sep 2020 16:19

As per latest satellite images, the CA is setting up camps close to our positions ...
This seems like nonsense. All this effort is nullified if we give them the opportunity to attack us from few 100 meters, if they decide to go kinetic first.

But if we decide to go kinetic first, then its good. Their logistics will be strained to evacuate casualties, which will further expose them to arty attack.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 12 Sep 2020 16:23

SSridhar wrote: That's what the Vietnamese did in 1979. The Chinese lost over ~8000 soldiers in that and possibly twice that number injured. There were heavy casualties on the Vietnamese side too but they gave the PLA a pasting, the effects of which reverberate in China even today for following reasons:

The Chinese never revealed casualty figures and buried their dead soldiers in the remote hillside along the Vietnamese border, like it has happened now in Galwan or earlier in 1962 during which also China suffered heavy casualties
...

Vietnam had to give away parts of it's northern territories as part of conflict resolution in early 1990s. They were depending on USSR to come to their aid, but they decided to stay out. India needs to fight the war if it happens on it's own without depending on US, Japan or whatever other country.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 12 Sep 2020 16:49

Davidrock wrote:As per latest satellite images, the CA is setting up camps close to our positions ...
This seems like nonsense. All this effort is nullified if we give them the opportunity to attack us from few 100 meters, if they decide to go kinetic first.

But if we decide to go kinetic first, then its good. Their logistics will be strained to evacuate casualties, which will further expose them to arty attack.

1. We are still on high ground having occupied the ridge-lines. They have to rush uphill while we have to shoot down. That is a great advantage to have.

2. From the ridge-line we can observe their movement in the Spanggur bowl while they cannnot being 100 meters or so, per your post, down the slope on their own side.

We still retain the upper hand till things go kinetic.

3. We have strung barbed wire around our position so even when they decide to go kinetic they cannot immediately rush our positions without alerting us.

4. Shooting downhill is easier then shooting uphill. Same goes for rush tactics.

5. Now they cannot call in atry strikes with the troops being so close to each other.

6. In a melee situation, we have already smashed them and are better disposed to win.

Plus there are other precautions that can be taken to retain the upper hand. We should let the military worry.

Added later: Has anyone noted the ground/land condition around the area. While there are no pictures of the same and the satellite images will not show it, go back and carefully analyse the image where local villages around Chumur were trying to supply our soldiers. How does the ground look like?

If the ground around our posts are similar, I doubt anyone will try rushing our positions.

kumarn · Post by **kumarn** » 12 Sep 2020 17:16

hanumadu wrote:Has anybody fought a war with a 3000 km logistic tail against a strong adversary before, not including 1962? US has bases all over the world and it's supply chain is much longer spanning continents, but its a far bigger power which fights against small nations usually with power allies on its side.

Yes, papistan in then East papistan. And we know the results.

Lohit · Post by **Lohit** » 12 Sep 2020 17:39

hanumadu wrote:Has anybody fought a war with a 3000 km logistic tail against a strong adversary before, not including 1962? .

Closest example that comes to mind is Op Barbarossa.

While there arent many active partisans in East Turkestan that can be inducted to disrupt supply lines at the moment; given the genocide the Chinese have done there and considering the interest the US now has in that region, such induction might surely happen.

Apart from conventional disruptions due to weather, explosives driven blasts could trigger landslides which could potentially seal off Chinese troops in their present encampments and at our mercy.

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Sep 2020 17:40

jamwal wrote:
SSridhar wrote: That's what the Vietnamese did in 1979. The Chinese lost over ~8000 soldiers in that and possibly twice that number injured. There were heavy casualties on the Vietnamese side too but they gave the PLA a pasting, the effects of which reverberate in China even today for following reasons:

The Chinese never revealed casualty figures and buried their dead soldiers in the remote hillside along the Vietnamese border, like it has happened now in Galwan or earlier in 1962 during which also China suffered heavy casualties
...
Vietnam had to give away parts of it's northern territories as part of conflict resolution in early 1990s. They were depending on USSR to come to their aid, but they decided to stay out. India needs to fight the war if it happens on it's own without depending on US, Japan or whatever other country.

Vietnamese had the chinis' number on the military side of things but Vietnam reported a horrendous amount of civilian dead. They claimed 100K dead from the chini attack.

https://www.historynet.com/war-of-the-d ... r-1979.htm

Neither side advertised its casualties. The PLA admitted to 7,000 dead and 15,000 wounded, but Western estimates ran as high as 28,000 Chinese dead and 43,000 wounded. Vietnam did not release casualty figures other than widely publicizing 100,000 Vietnamese civilian deaths.
The PLA’s “scorched-earth” campaign that left a swath of destruction in its path gave some credence to Vietnam’s claimed civilian toll.

Unlike US "shock and awe" campaigns which had precision strikes that tried to limit collateral damage, chini artillery barrages back then didn't (and probably won't even today.) The PLA had always been an extremely heavy artillery army like the Soviets.

So imagine if fighting with them ever got near population centers.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 12 Sep 2020 17:43

We still retain the upper hand till things go kinetic.

Pray explain what is the use of retaining the upper hand .........if it is of no use when things go kinetic? Shivring in dhoti.....

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 12 Sep 2020 17:43

Good start to scale up our ISR and patrol capacities at the LAC but much more needs to be done.

https://twitter.com/ETPolitics/status/1 ... 3102980098

China border: ITBP’s extra high-tech proposal for UAVs, radars, LORROS set to be okayed.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 12 Sep 2020 17:47

rsingh wrote:
We still retain the upper hand till things go kinetic.

Pray explain what is the use of retaining the upper hand .........if it is of no use when things go kinetic? Shivring in dhoti.....

I just stumbled on this post that quotes my post because I had just posted some stuff. Better to quote properly with the forum id to notify properly.

You seem to have skipped the rest of the post from that point on.

kit · Post by **kit** » 12 Sep 2020 18:13

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... cs-support

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 12 Sep 2020 18:18

pankajs wrote:Good start to scale up our ISR and patrol capacities at the LAC but much more needs to be done.

https://twitter.com/ETPolitics/status/1 ... 3102980098
China border: ITBP’s extra high-tech proposal for UAVs, radars, LORROS set to be okayed.

What happened to the news item from a couple of months back of Indian plans to fly in boats for us to patrol our part of the Pangong Tso lake? The Chinese have been literally riding roughshod over us without us having any counter.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 12 Sep 2020 18:20

Territorial gains or controlling strategic positions is not the right objective if we want a short and decisive war with PLA. The weakest link in PLA is the Chinese solider. We should focus on that. The objective should be to capture as many PLA POWs as possible.

Phase 1: The next time there is a skirmish and PLA troops advance en masse towards IA positions, we should cede some ground, let them advance down the slopes towards us, then surround them by coming down from adjoining heights in a pincer movement. Having just climbed uphill, they can't turn around and run back uphill again with or without oxygen bottles. All IA soldiers should carry a bunch of zip ties and fluorescent orange hoods in their pockets to tie down the hands & feet of every enemy solider they can lay hands on, and pull the hood on their heads to keep them calm. Capturing intruders on our side of LAC is fair game. Keep buses on standby and transfer them to Leh or elsewhere.Behind the attacking forces, we need mop up squads that will collect these orange hooded captured soldiers, and put them on the waiting buses. Equipped with medical teams as needed. Fair and respectful treatment as per Geneva convention.

Phase 2: Without waiting for talks and negotiations, without marking a pause, IA should call Air strikes on G219 to cutoff reinforcements and resupply, and then launch a counter offensive immediately to capture their camps and bases, like Sirijap, and the fort a few kms beyond it, and Moldo camp and the base beyond that as well. The enemy will be still in a daze, frantically trying to radio their fwd teams who are now captured and not responding. Makes it easier for IA to subdue them and take even more PoWs. Target to take as many PoWs as possible, and transfer them back to IA bases away from the front. Then blow up the camps illegally constructed on Indian territory, after taking some equipment & stuff from these camps and bases for analysis later. No need to advance all the way to G219 through narrow valleys.

We should stop caring temporarily about territory. Whereas some loss of (earlier occupied) territory could be downplayed by PLA or a counter offensive launched to try and recapture to avenge what is seen as a tactical loss and stretch the conflict, or open another front etc; the loss by capture of a huge number of men will make any territory impossible to hold on to. A few thousand PoWs taken will destroy PLA's morale totally and no counter offensive can rectify the situation.

Phase 3: And then India should make a short announcement by MEA press secretary declaring a unilateral cease fire - as long as China doesn't fire a shot and does no action that India may consider offensive on land/sea/air/cyberspace.

That will create the optimum conditions needed to implement the 5 point plan, namely follow leader's guidance, disengage & de-escalate, respect agreements, discuss in good faith, implement CBMs... see? These 5 points make perfect sense with a few thousand plump little princes cooling their heels in Leh or Pune or Secunderabad cantonment garrison.

rsangram · Post by **rsangram** » 12 Sep 2020 18:20

rsingh wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:True unfortunately parts of Indian media and some brainless parts of our opposition are compromised and openly stating Chinese propaganda.
Welcome........to Democrazy

Democracy........you sure? Or Chorocracy(Kleptocracy) ?

But at least we are not the Communist Party, with no freedoms, oppression and no freedom of speech. We only steal from the country and each other.

rsangram · Post by **rsangram** » 12 Sep 2020 18:28

Sidhant wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: Precisely. Talk about shivering in dhoti... Having said that the current situation of far better than it ever was since 62 it seems. So perhaps it's good enough if we consolidate the gains made, for now.
Either you have not read my post in its entirety or you think that GOI and armed forces are dhoti shivering too. Coz in my post I have clearly mentioned that I fully support and agree with the way GOI and armed forces are handling the current situation. But then it sounds like anybody who is not instigating an immediate war is shivering in his dhoti. Bhai Wah, way to counter arguments.

Pray tell me who really is shivering in their dhotis, people who want desh to go to war right at this moment coz they are scared that mighty hans will kick our backsides later, or the people who appreciate the cool, calm, composed and methodical manner in which GOI and our armed forces are handling the situation?

One of the reasons I love BRF is that it invents such evocative and clever terms, like "Dhoti Shivering". Brilliant.

Although, I must admit, I have never ever seen a dhoti shiver or even a person wearing a dhoti shiver. Never ever. Maybe I am just not running into the "right" kind of Dhoti wearers or even the right kind of Dhotis.

I have, on the other hand seen plenty of people wearing badly fitting grey and brown pants, shiver. In fact, I see that all the time. I have also seen many "wet" pants - mostly, like I said, badly fiited ones.

I have also seen "Salwar" shiver, and "Chhote Bhai ka pyajama" shiver. I have also seen some "Bade Bhai ka kurta" shiver. Believe it or not, when not in a pack, Salwars shiver like you would not believe.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 12 Sep 2020 18:54

pankajs wrote:
rsingh wrote:
Pray explain what is the use of retaining the upper hand .........if it is of no use when things go kinetic? Shivring in dhoti.....
I just stumbled on this post that quotes my post because I had just posted some stuff. Better to quote properly with the forum id to notify properly.

You seem to have skipped the rest of the post from that point on.

Oh I do this often. Comment is so wierd that I am questioning those who did not react on this. It is not only for you to answer. Whey quote one liner and not whole post? I do not want to use wavelenth for useless repititions. Pardon Moi, Mais je suis comment ca moi.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 12 Sep 2020 20:19

Aditya_V wrote:True unfortunately parts of Indian media and some brainless parts of our opposition are compromised and openly stating Chinese propaganda.

I’ve noticed one thing: outlets like Indian Express routinely headline the Chinese version. The Indian version from EAM or DM is buried deep inside the report.

This can’t be put down to carelessness or coincidence as it seems highly consistent.

I want to be told that I am wrong, and my paranoia is making me see non-existent patterns.

M_Joshi · Post by **M_Joshi** » 12 Sep 2020 21:03

Nitin A. Gokhale
@nitingokhale
·
4h
Red dots are Chinese positions. Blue are Indian

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 12 Sep 2020 21:04

KLNMurthy wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:True unfortunately parts of Indian media and some brainless parts of our opposition are compromised and openly stating Chinese propaganda.
I’ve noticed one thing: outlets like Indian Express routinely headline the Chinese version. The Indian version from EAM or DM is buried deep inside the report.

This can’t be put down to carelessness or coincidence as it seems highly consistent.

I want to be told that I am wrong, and my paranoia is making me see non-existent patterns.

Probably coz the Chinese version is more spicy/controversial while Indian version is cool and calm. Done as clickbait.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 12 Sep 2020 21:07

jamwal wrote:
hanumadu wrote:Has anybody fought a war with a 3000 km logistic tail against a strong adversary before, not including 1962? US has bases all over the world and it's supply chain is much longer spanning continents, but its a far bigger power which fights against small nations usually with power allies on its side.

Imagine fighting a war in Delhi where the nearest supply depot is in Bangalore thats about 1500 km. Galwan to Chengdu is 1500 km too. What am I missing ?..why the dhoti shiver.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 12 Sep 2020 21:13

TV9: Mr XI may step down?

kumarn · Post by **kumarn** » 12 Sep 2020 21:19

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/13 ... brexit-spt

China bombshell: Xi Jinping tipped to STEP DOWN from presidency

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 12 Sep 2020 21:29

KLNMurthy wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:True unfortunately parts of Indian media and some brainless parts of our opposition are compromised and openly stating Chinese propaganda.
I’ve noticed one thing: outlets like Indian Express routinely headline the Chinese version. The Indian version from EAM or DM is buried deep inside the report.

This can’t be put down to carelessness or coincidence as it seems highly consistent.

I want to be told that I am wrong, and my paranoia is making me see non-existent patterns.

You are not wrong ...

I was watching a couple of Indian today reports NOT by the turd but folks whom we would consider as "right thinking" but even there the opening portion was virtual repeat of the Chinese propaganda version. After that came comments about Chinese propaganda ...

I was like, boss, you guys are carrying the Chinese propaganda to the Indian masses! They could at least have started with something like "Chinese claim or propaganda claims that ...." but no such thing.

Either it is deliberate or our folks are too dumb to understand that the way they are presenting the Chinese side of the story makes them/Indian channels part of the Chinese propaganda machine.

Ideally, the should have mocked and discredited the Chinese claim rather than amplify them. Such is Indian media.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 12 Sep 2020 21:32

It all makes sense now. This latest border skirmish was probably XI's last gasp attempt to project a strong image. He must have realized he was in a difficult position internally and tried this to show a win at a time when China is getting battered all around the world. Now that even this last gamble has blown in his face, XI has no option but to step down.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 12 Sep 2020 21:33

"News" on Xi is kite flying ... for NOW.

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 12 Sep 2020 21:34

kumarn wrote:https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/13 ... brexit-spt

China bombshell: Xi Jinping tipped to STEP DOWN from presidency

Look at the fear in this gora’s words for China. Suit-shivering at its best that from an ex-British army officer.

He added: “I don’t think we want to be antagonistic towards China, it’s a great country full of great people.

“I think we may see Xi changed for a new leader and that would improve relations.

“They need a new broom if they want to reset relations with the West.

“The last thing we want to do right now is to trigger a new Cold War with China, it would cost us trillions and we don’t want to do that now.”

Mr Drummond believes that if China senses that its behaviour has damaged its economy as well as its standing in the world community, it may feel it has to respond.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 12 Sep 2020 21:49

https://twitter.com/detresfa_

So Indians are nowhere near Black top

John · Post by **John** » 12 Sep 2020 21:51

kumarn wrote:https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/13 ... brexit-spt

China bombshell: Xi Jinping tipped to STEP DOWN from presidency

Well his family has been grabbing up condos in NY, Toronto and London so they already made off with all the $$ from Chinese citizens and will live in life of luxury for another century.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 12 Sep 2020 22:05

Keeping it here for later reference. It has a data point that supports my view on a point discussed recently on the LCA standoff. I will come back sometime later and elaborate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5jjK8fxKMk
India-China sign a 5-point joint declaration: What we know, what we can infer & what we can wargame

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 12 Sep 2020 22:05

Link
After initial denials and nonsensical statements, China finally handed over 5 Indian youth who wandered into Chinese territory near Arunachal Pradesh. Good to see better behaviour from China. Thats the way to go !

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 12 Sep 2020 22:17

kumarn wrote:https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/13 ... brexit-spt

China bombshell: Xi Jinping tipped to STEP DOWN from presidency

This is speculation. He doesn't provide any proof of something happening.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 12 Sep 2020 22:40

AshishA wrote:
kumarn wrote:https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/13 ... brexit-spt

China bombshell: Xi Jinping tipped to STEP DOWN from presidency
This is speculation. He doesn't provide any proof of something happening.

i would post double guard + high alert after reading this news !!! a red herring

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 12 Sep 2020 22:51

problems are Hans and not only Xitler. chinese were enemies before xitler and will remain so afterwards. Hans/CCP can't have any power and weapons. Till they do, they will remain threat to everyone.

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 12 Sep 2020 23:27

darshan wrote:problems are Hans and not only Xitler. chinese were enemies before xitler and will remain so afterwards. Hans/CCP can't have any power and weapons. Till they do, they will remain threat to everyone.

They need to be broken up into smaller provinces.

manjgu wrote:
AshishA wrote: This is speculation. He doesn't provide any proof of something happening.
i would post double guard + high alert after reading this news !!! a red herring

I also found that the author's tone was sympathetic to the CCP. As if, you are paid to spread unsubstantiated news/rumours but can't overtly criticise your pay masters.