India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

[LakshmanPST]

Hey, do you have a kml or kmz file of these roads and posts that you can share?

I do have it, but don't want to share it in public. DM me.

[arshyam]

Something to make a note of.

Russia Starts Military Buildup In The Far East Near The Chinese Border - Reuters via Swarajya

[M_Joshi]

Giovanni de Briganti
@JoedeBrig
China has for 2nd time launched a 58 t rocket from a civilian naval vessel, demonstrating a new capability and raising specter that similar launchers could be covertly fitted to “merchant” ships.

This means any and all Cheen Merchant Ships are targets in case of any hostility like their warships.

[Cyrano]

In contrast, got altitude sickness in the Pyrenees. Totally totally bad. Headache. Felt I couldn't breathe. Lungs got filled with fluid. Was drowning in my own lungs. Caused by shortage of oxygen in air. Makes you hyperventilate.

Mukesh Kumar ji,
Thats a bit unfortunate, where were you? There are a few peaks in the Pyrennees that are above 3000m but most don't go much above. Most people seem to manage without specific acclimatisation. I had climbed Grand Queyrat- 3060m some years ago and had no problems. But those days I used to run under 3h30 marathons! I hiked up to Cascade d'Ars near Aulus les Bains last year with kids (1600m) and there were many tourist hikers of all ages. Many ski stations in Alps are above 2000M and do not require acclimatisation. But I suppose different people react differently to altitude, irrespective of fitness levels. sorry for the OT.

[Yagnasri]

Chinese do not recognise the civilians and non-civilians when they attack you. They have shown that in their attempted invasion into Vietnam. Other nations need not show them that courtesy

[sooraj]

@MeghUpdates
·
57m
Chene camp is frustrated because Indian Army has occupied Six new Heights between Aug 29th and the second week of September

All operations are closely monitored by NSA , CDS and COAS
(ANI)

[dbhavik]

As some one suggested, we should broadcast message in Tibetan and Chinese that any Tibetan surrendering will be allowed in India as refugees and get darshan of Dalai Lama.

Diamox taken twice daily ..2 to 3 days before going to heights allows u to goto heights and not have acclimatisation issues ...

Diamox simply gives you a headstart in the acclamatization process. It tricks the body into believing that there is excess CO2 buildup and the body compensates for that by taking deeper and frequent breaths in an attempt to inhale more O2 and exhale 'excess' CO2. It is useful for trekkers that go to higher altitudes for a short amount of time and come back down to the plains.

Successful long term acclamation, which is what matters for soldiers manning the posts at high altitudes, depends on the body's inherent ability to do 2 things - Utilize O2 efficiency and enhance the O2 transport mechanism by producing more and larger RBCs. This is why Diamox may be of limited value for troops fighting at high altitudes.

[nam]

Chinis are awfully quiet. Wonder what is cooking.

They haven't agreed to a Commander's meeting yet. But not making the usual noise either. In Doklam, atleast they were making constant threats. Now it has been left to GT..

I wonder what is going on the Chini side of LAC.

[chola]

Chinese do not recognise the civilians and non-civilians when they attack you. They have shown that in their attempted invasion into Vietnam. Other nations need not show them that courtesy

Seriously, I wonder how they got away with this without much condemnation. The Vietnamese government claimed 100K civilians killed in a war that lasted just one month. The chinis used over 1500 artillery pieces in the attack.

This is horrendous indiscriminate killing and should have been prosecuted as a war crime. Worth bringing up everywhere. There can be no dispute as to who are the bad guys here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vi ... casualties

The official Nhân Dân newspaper claimed that Vietnam suffered more than 100,000 civilian deaths during the Chinese invasion and earlier on 17 May 1979, reported statistics on heavy losses of industry and agricultural properties.

https://www.historynet.com/war-of-the-d ... r-1979.htm

Neither side advertised its casualties. The PLA admitted to 7,000 dead and 15,000 wounded, but Western estimates ran as high as 28,000 Chinese dead and 43,000 wounded. Vietnam did not release casualty figures other than widely publicizing 100,000 Vietnamese civilian deaths.

[darshan]

Perks of being a permanent UNSC member and sleeping with other members. Especially US.

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Mukesh Kumar ji,
Thats a bit unfortunate, where were you? There are a few peaks in the Pyrennees that are above 3000m but most don't go much above. Most people seem to manage without specific acclimatisation. I had climbed Grand Queyrat- 3060m some years ago and had no problems. But those days I used to run under 3h30 marathons! I hiked up to Cascade d'Ars near Aulus les Bains last year with kids (1600m) and there were many tourist hikers of all ages. Many ski stations in Alps are above 2000M and do not require acclimatisation. But I suppose different people react differently to altitude, irrespective of fitness levels. sorry for the OT.

Amar_p ji that's amazing. Hope you continue the good habit. Are you still into mountaineering. And congratulations on passing on a great habit to your children.

Mine was actually much lower. I don't think I was at 2500 either. In fact didn't realize that it was altitude sickness till I went to the doctor. Thought that I was down with a cold. I was hiking with friends in Andorra actually. First day was ok but at night it was terrible. I couldn't breathe lying down. Was cold. Was afraid to close my eyes. Had literally gone from sea level in tropics to starting a hike within 12 hrs after overnight flight.

Alcohol made it worse. And at that point was actually in pretty bad shape. Chain smoker. Funny thing is that every time I smoked it seemed to give relief and then it was terrible. I guess it was more due to fitness. And once I was back at sea level and out of Spain it was much better.

It's been 8 years and I have stayed away from mountains. And till last year I was afraid to even go to a colder clime for holiday. Quit smoking eventually.

Sorry for the OT.

[Ashokk]

LAC stand-off: Indian Army has occupied six new major heights

"The Indian Army has occupied six new heights between August 29 and the second week of September. The new hill features being occupied by our troops include the Magar hill, Gurung Hill, Recehen La, Rezang La, Mokhpari and the dominating height over Chinese positions near Finger 4," top government sources told ANI.

The sources clarified that the Black Top and the Helmet Top hill features are on the Chinese side of the LAC while the heights occupied by the Indian side are in Indian territory.

[darshan]

Now, where is that Nepalese twitter army?

China invades Nepal, constructs eight buildings in Nepalese territory: Reports
https://www.opindia.com/2020/09/china-i ... territory/
With expansionist policies in place, China has continued to invade Nepal inch by inch and constructing buildings on the captured lands. As per a report by Khabarhub, the recent images from the Lapcha-Limi region of Humla, China has built eight buildings so far in the area. However, Nepali Prime Minister Oli, who has been vocal on capturing Indian land claiming it to be part of Nepal, is silent on Chinese invasion.
....

[chola]

@ amar_p
@Mukesh.Kumar

Not off topic at all. This is the kind of environment our jawans (and their opponents) must operate in.

Cheen is notorious as a nation of heavy smokers too.

[abhik]

LAC stand-off: Indian Army has occupied six new major heights

"The Indian Army has occupied six new heights between August 29 and the second week of September. The new hill features being occupied by our troops include the Magar hill, Gurung Hill, Recehen La, Rezang La, Mokhpari and the dominating height over Chinese positions near Finger 4," top government sources told ANI.

The sources clarified that the Black Top and the Helmet Top hill features are on the Chinese side of the LAC while the heights occupied by the Indian side are in Indian territory.

Sounds like they are just recycling news from 3 weeks ago, not clear what exactly is "new".

[eklavya]

Nepalis soldiers are part of commonwealth armies since a long time. If Chinese pay them well, what's stopping them from joining PLA? A lot of Nepalis, atleast on internet act just like Oli. Indian policies haven't been that great either wrt Nepal.

Off topic. But. Isn’t there a law that prevents the citizens of a country from joining the armed forces of another country. Serving in an armed force is an act of exclusive loyalty to a particular flag and country. If it is to be possible, I’m assuming there has to be positive permission provided for this. India/Nepal or UK/Nepal is a special situation, where the practice is well established for centuries, and at least in India’s case, there is treaty basis for it (India Nepal Peace and Friendship Treaty 1950). Plus the Nepali and Indian army chiefs have reciprocal ranks in each other’s armies. The status of the Gurkha regiments in the Indian Army is unquestionable. Just look at our Chiefs!

How will the PLA officer their Nepalese soldiers? What status will the Nepali regiments have in the PLA? Will the PLA allow their Nepalese Hindu soldiers to practice their religion? Will the PLA trust their Nepalese Hindu soldiers to fire at the Indian Army? What will it do to Nepal’s relationships with the world if their government supports Nepalese citizens fighting for the PLA? India/Nepal are tied for thousand of years / forever by culture, language, religion, trade, marriage, history, geography. Tibet/Nepal are also tied historically, but less than India/Nepal. China/Nepal there is nothing but the perversity of Communist thought.

[Guddu]

Nice video by Shiv on the pangong and spangur area heights

https://youtu.be/wY6hQnL98H0

[tsarkar]

LAC stand-off: Indian Army has occupied six new major heights

"The Indian Army has occupied six new heights between August 29 and the second week of September. The new hill features being occupied by our troops include the Magar hill, Gurung Hill, Recehen La, Rezang La, Mokhpari and the dominating height over Chinese positions near Finger 4," top government sources told ANI.

The sources clarified that the Black Top and the Helmet Top hill features are on the Chinese side of the LAC while the heights occupied by the Indian side are in Indian territory.

Arent these the very same features that are under discussion since last three weeks?

[Guddu]

Looks like the govt wants to name the features and avoid talk of Black top/Helmet top, even though we may occupy them.

[ramana]

Hari Nair I think you are right Chinese objective was Leh and all Ladakh at Galwan. Not any salami nibble or slice.

[rpartha]

Giovanni de Briganti
@JoedeBrig



This means any and all Cheen Merchant Ships are targets in case of any hostility like their warships.

Not sure whether this is a smart move - esp publicizing it... any country can now search Chinese merchant vessels even on the international waters stating that they may be carrying BM that can target their country... open season...

[rpartha]

LAC stand-off: Indian Army has occupied six new major heights

"The Indian Army has occupied six new heights between August 29 and the second week of September. The new hill features being occupied by our troops include the Magar hill, Gurung Hill, Recehen La, Rezang La, Mokhpari and the dominating height over Chinese positions near Finger 4," top government sources told ANI.

The sources clarified that the Black Top and the Helmet Top hill features are on the Chinese side of the LAC while the heights occupied by the Indian side are in Indian territory.

But this is what we already know and have been discussing right? Looks like all the hills are already known and only clarification in the statement was about Black Hill...

[williams]

LAC stand-off: Indian Army has occupied six new major heights

But this is what we already know and have been discussing right? Looks like all the hills are already known and only clarification in the statement was about Black Hill...

पतंगमक्तमसुरस्य मायया हृदा पश्यन्ति मनसा विपश्चितः ।

Loosely translated, The wise needs to use their mind to distinguish between things that are perceived and things that are not perceived. I think the government sources are providing some official statement after 15 days to let the Chins walk away after the next round of corps commander level talks. All these locations are in Indian territory and those not in this list will be given back if the Chins want to walk away and tell their people they did not lose anything. It is the last chance to the Chins before the winter games can start. The MAD team at their best

[saip]

^^^????

[Varoon Shekhar]

Apologies if this video/info has been posted before. India building road linking Leh with DBO. Below the video are interesting links about the same subject.


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=in ... ORM=VDQVAP

[SriKumar]

Not sure whether this is a smart move - esp publicizing it... any country can now search Chinese merchant vessels even on the international waters stating that they may be carrying BM that can target their country... open season...

Agreed. And if hostilities break out, it gives India a good reason to target Chinese merchant navy. Talk about shootting themselves in the foot. It must have been an H&D response to news of India's hypersonic missile testing. They must have hurried up and set up something for a phto-op. Operational value is zero, PR value is high ....for those who dont know any better. It must have been for internal consumption. This would fall in the same category of those hot-shot Chinese 'war-fighting' videos with scenes of grim looking soldiers staring fiercely at rocks and mud and shooting at them.

[abhik]

Nice video by Shiv on the pangong and spangur area heights

https://youtu.be/wY6hQnL98H0

I don't think they some of the positions in Pangong finger area claimed in the video to be IA positions are correct, they are actually PLA positions, he is using GE images from mid June when there were no IA positions reported in the ridge (except one very low down on F3).

[Karna]

[youtube] https://youtu.be/wY6hQnL98H0 [/youtube]

How the recent readjustments by IA has allowed us to dominate cheens positions. A simple overview.

[Cyrano]

Some serious, bad ass ice climbing skills of IA troops !

https://www.facebook.com/10061305482109 ... 266650943/

That would make pro alpinist climbers jealous

[rpartha]

Not sure whether this is a smart move - esp publicizing it... any country can now search Chinese merchant vessels even on the international waters stating that they may be carrying BM that can target their country... open season...

Agreed. And if hostilities break out, it gives India a good reason to target Chinese merchant navy. Talk about shootting themselves in the foot. It must have been an H&D response to news of India's hypersonic missile testing. They must have hurried up and set up something for a phto-op. Operational value is zero, PR value is high ....for those who dont know any better. It must have been for internal consumption. This would fall in the same category of those hot-shot Chinese 'war-fighting' videos with scenes of grim looking soldiers staring fiercely at rocks and mud and shooting at them.

Exactly.. My thoughts too. And it may be against US too as they love to call it as carrier killer... let's see the US reaction on this...

[Jay]

Giovanni de Briganti
@JoedeBrig
China has for 2nd time launched a 58 t rocket from a civilian naval vessel, demonstrating a new capability and raising specter that similar launchers could be covertly fitted to “merchant” ships.

This means any and all Cheen Merchant Ships are targets in case of any hostility like their warships.

These guys will be way too stupid if they ever try or even give hints of using this capability in a conflict. This will be the easiest way to get rid of your mercantile capability. IN/ICG must be salivating at the opportunity to eliminate their trading vessels and it will be Turkey shoot.

[sanjayc]

Villagers help Indian troops face Chinese forces in Himalayas
Both sides prepare for winter with little hope of diplomatic outcome to border dispute

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -himalayas

At an altitude of almost 15,000ft, the residents of Chushul village make their way across the bleak and unforgiving territory of the Indian state of Ladakh.

With unwieldy and overstuffed duffel bags, rice sacks, heavy fuel cans and bamboo canes strapped to their backs, they trudge upwards to a Himalayan mountain peak known as Black Top, where hundreds of Indian army tents are stationed on the horizon.

The 100-odd men, women and young boys are not making this arduous journey out of kindness. In the coming winter months, temperatures here will drop to –40C. The villagers fear that if they do not help the Indian army secure their positions along the mountain ridges bordering China – and help prepare the troops for the harsh winter ahead – their village might soon be under Chinese control.

“We want to help the Indian army to secure their positions immediately,” said Tsering, a 28-year-old volunteer from Chushul. “We are carrying supplies to them, doing multiple rounds in a day, to ensure that the army doesn’t face too many problems.”

Chushal, a hamlet of around 150 households, is one of the closest habitations to India’s disputed border with China in eastern Ladakh. Since May, Indian and Chinese troops have been engaged in an increasingly aggressive dispute over their poorly demarcated Himalayan boundary, known as the line of actual control (LAC).

In June, the situation escalated into a violent, high-altitude clash in which 20 Indian soldiers, and an unknown number of Chinese soldiers, were killed in a hand-to-hand battle between the two sides, the worst loss of life on the border for more than four decades.

On 29 August, just a few miles from Chushul, another face-off broke out between India and China troops. There were no casualties that night, but shots were fired by troops on the border for the first time in 45 years.

At a meeting in Moscow last week, the defence ministers of India and China released a joint statement agreeing to “disengage as soon as possible” along their border. It followed at least five rounds of high-level military negotiations that have gone nowhere, with both sides continuing to insist the other is violating sovereign territory.


But, according to the villagers, there is little evidence of disengagement on the ground. Over the past week, Indian troops have continued to build up along the border. A convoy of Indian army vehicles has continued to bring supplies and ammunition to troops camped in posts along the border, and around 100 diggers have been brought in for the construction of roads and buildings, to further secure India’s position along the border.

“It’s very clear that both sides are planning to stay there for winter; they seem to be anticipating that there will be no diplomatic outcome,” said Manoj Joshi, a security expert at the Observer Research Foundation.

“The reality is that China does not want to settle this because it is a convenient way to keep India unsettled and weakened, by entangling them in an expensive military operation along the Himalayan border that is far beyond their means.”

This week, the villagers of Chushul have continued their non-stop efforts to bring supplies to the troops on Black Top. There is no road access to the mountain ridges that have become the new frontline. They spoke of their worries about the coming five months when the whole area becomes almost completely cut off by snow, ice and lethal avalanches.

“The area where the recent face-off took place is yet to have a road, let alone the infrastructure,” said Tsering. “How long will the army keep supplies going like this?”

She was echoed by Konchak Tsepel, another villager. “The new places where China has engaged the Indian army don’t have proper living conditions. The army is being put up in tents. I don’t know how they are going to build infrastructure good enough to live, when there is no road.”

Experts says India had not been prepared for a drawn-out battle along its mountain border, which shows no sign of easing off. It now has just a few weeks to make sure the four divisions currently deployed in Ladakh, numbering around 40,000 troops, are prepared to hold their positions against China over winter.

The Indian military has been spending billions on defence along its China border, including a $400m new tunnel into the mountains in Himachal Pradesh, but maintaining the tens of thousands of troops in this high-altitude desert is a complex and costly task. The region doesn’t have proper communication channels and electricity hasn’t yet reached many villages. Meanwhile, China’s defence budget is three times the size of India’s.

Tashi Chhepal, 60, a retired Indian army captain who has served in the region for more than three decades, described how over the winter, “at some posts our contact with the outside world would get cut off for even five months at a time”.

He said: “Everything would freeze like a rock and we would stock supplies for the entire winter. For those months we would rely on tin-packed food. The connectivity is still as bad. Nothing much has changed in years.”

Pravin Sawhney, a former Indian army officer, said India had been taken by “complete surprise” with China’s recent aggressions along the border and were now on the back foot. “China is far superior,” added Sawhney. “They have got the fibre optic internet right to the edge of the battle space.”
An Indian army major general, Amrit Pal Singh, the former chief of operational logistics of the Leh region, said the logistics of moving troops and supplies to the area as winter sets in was a challenge unlike any other for the Indian military. “This is the most isolated battlefield in the world,” he said.

Better to send this China fan boy to China - do we need resident non-Indians like this guy in our country?

[nam]

It is quite funny when we hear comments like "India cannot afford it"...

India has been on a constant fight with Pak & China for decades... even when we were almost bankrupt in 91. Now we the 5th largest GDP.

when we could do with near bankruptcy...

[williams]

It is quite funny when we hear comments like "India cannot afford it"...

India has been on a constant fight with Pak & China for decades... even when we were almost bankrupt in 91. Now we the 5th largest GDP.

when we could do with near bankruptcy...

Ok first we all need to make a point GDP in terms of PPP is the most accurate way to describe our overall economy. As of today. India's GDP in terms of PPP is 10.5 trillion dollars. We are the third-largest economy in the world. The Chinese economy is 2.5 times larger than ours, not the 5-6 times larger figure everyone wants to quote. US economy is two times larger than ours. There are weaknesses of course since a lot of our defense production happens in other countries. We are a democracy and we have a high degree of economic inefficiency. In other words, our economy has a lot of room for improvement. So can we do 1971 redux and liberate Tibet and Uyghur? Maybe not. Can we smash the Chinese and enforce our perspective of the LAC pre-1962? Sure we can. Now, we don't want to willy-nilly put our boys in harm's way and incur a lot of casualties. But if a war is thrust upon us, we can do it with a lot more resources in hand.

[Philip]

Every PRC fishing vessel,MV or bumboat must be treated as hostile,as the PLAN use these vessels for intel gathering and clandestine ops. In wartime they will be used to also attack enemy MVs like Somali pirates.Their proliferation esp. in the IOR and Malacca Straits will pose a problem to the IN and CG.

Any extra presence or unusual activity of the PRC bumboat brigade could signal imminent hostilities. The IN should also factor in the PLAAF and PLAN stationing their H-6 bombers and land- based naval fighters from Paki air bases at Gwadar,Karachi,etc. The venerable Tupolev bombers armed with LR stand-off missiles will also pose a formidable threat. PlAN subs will also attempt at ingress into the IOR to shadow IN forces, wait outside IN bases and ports for opportune attacks. The IN's sub fleet must be immediately augmented with more subs of types in service ,Kilos and Scorpenes, if they are available with other navies and OEM builders.

Clip on sonar kits both for MCM duties as well as ASW , is another way in which capabilities of both IN and CG vessels can be enhanced.

[g.sarkar]

Villagers help Indian troops face Chinese forces in Himalayas
Both sides prepare for winter with little hope of diplomatic outcome to border dispute
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -himalayas

At an altitude of almost 15,000ft, the residents of Chushul village make their way across the bleak and unforgiving territory of the Indian state of Ladakh.
With unwieldy and overstuffed duffel bags, rice sacks, heavy fuel cans and bamboo canes strapped to their backs, they trudge upwards to a Himalayan mountain peak known as Black Top, where hundreds of Indian army tents are stationed on the horizon.
The 100-odd men, women and young boys are not making this arduous journey out of kindness. In the coming winter months, temperatures here will drop to –40C. The villagers fear that if they do not help the Indian army secure their positions along the mountain ridges bordering China – and help prepare the troops for the harsh winter ahead – their village might soon be under Chinese control.?

I just love reading such biased articles from the Guardian. It made my day. Indian villagers helping the Indian army during a time of war. Is that news? Proper news would be Indian villagers helping the Chinese army. Man bites dog. In every war with Pakistan, the villagers in Indian Punjab helped the Indian army. What is the difference? Indian army is liked in Ladakh, its youth join the army in large numbers voluntarily, due to the war situation the local population is completely behind the army. That is how it should be.
Gautam

[VikramS]

WIth the current downturn, investment in infra and MIC can boost the economy, and provide employment to many.

[abhik]

Are there any media people actually on the ground in Chushul (that too from al guardian)? I suppose not, so how is this guardian dude talking to/giving stories about the volunteer porters?
IIRC from Chushul village you should be able to see all the major peaks on the LAC west or spanggur gap, hope they keep budding Barkhas out of this place.

[mmasand]

Are there any media people actually on the ground in Chushul (that too from al guardian)? I suppose not, so how is this guardian dude talking to/giving stories about the volunteer porters?
IIRC from Chushul village you should be able to see all the major peaks on the LAC west or spanggur gap, hope they keep budding Barkhas out of this place.

There are a handful of journos who are ferried around at the pleasure of XIV corps, and ADGPI controls the narrative. Since Leh isn't receiving any civilians owing to the aviation shutdown, no room for any one to sneak into the UT.

[Bart S]

Pravin Sawhney, a former Indian army officer, said India had been taken by “complete surprise” with China’s recent aggressions along the border and were now on the back foot. “China is far superior,” added Sawhney. “They have got the fibre optic internet right to the edge of the battle space.”

Better to send this China fan boy to China - do we need resident non-Indians like this guy in our country?

The fact that this dumbass thinks that the fiber optic cables are for providing 'Internet' connectivity speaks volumes about his credibility.