India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

[KLNMurthy]

Villagers help Indian troops face Chinese forces in Himalayas
Both sides prepare for winter with little hope of diplomatic outcome to border dispute

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -himalayas

With unwieldy and overstuffed duffel bags, rice sacks, heavy fuel cans and bamboo canes strapped to their backs, they trudge upwards to a Himalayan mountain peak known as Black Top, where hundreds of Indian army tents are stationed on the horizon.

[Roop]

Did you wonder why I wrote this?

Yes, I did wonder. And I'm still wondering. I'm probably just dense, but I have no idea what you're trying to say here. China can hit us in places A, B and C so... what? What should we do about it? You failed to specify anything, so the conclusion I drew, reasonably enough, was that you don't think we can do anything to mitigate the threat. Just "be afraid, be very afraid". Maybe that was not your intention, but that was what came across -- at least to me. This is like Phillip posting a few days ago, "China has H6 bombers that can carry cruise missiles with 2000km range, and can launch these missiles at us while staying safely within Chinese airspace", and just leaving that comment hanging in the air for everyone to panic about.

The thing is, I'm temperamentally disinclined (to put it mildly) to accept these pronouncements without challenge. I am simply not going to let these statements pass unchallenged if I see them. If China can do X1, Y1 and Z1 to us, I damned well trust the Indian forces to respond with X2, Y2 and Z2 to them. And X2 is greater than X1, etc. And the forum members should be told about this.

Cruise missiles are a very expensive way of depositing 100 kg explosive warhead. And sufficient missiles are simply not available for all taskings.

Same with air strikes. While on the internet people go gushing on seeing a LGB strike video on Tiger Hill, that was just one tasking out of hundreds required.

Yeah, okay. So my specific prescriptions for retaliation against the Chinese were inadequate, in your opinion. Okay, let's say I accept that. What I am not willing to accept is that China can simply hit us with impunity and we are powerless to respond effectively and with violence. If you think my recommendations were faulty, come up with some other recommendations of your own, and let people evaluate them. Failing that, you are simply advocating impotent dhoti-shivering for us -- as if we were Belgium threatened by the combination of the Luftwaffe and the Wehrmacht.

And the most ironic thing about all this is that this inordinate fear of the ten-foot-tall Chinaman is based simply on assumptions. If you look at the actual performance of the PLA in battle so far, it is they who should be shivering in their dhotis (or tunics, or whatever they call their uniforms).

Here's the bottom line for me: (your scenario)

China brings down artillery fire on DBO airstrip and the DSDBO road. What should we do? You have ruled out airstrikes and cruise-missile strikes, so what is left for us? Specifity in your response would be appreciated.

[m_saini]

....or whatever they call their uniforms).

Skirts

Hanfu

Hanfu refers to the historical Han clothing styles of China. The Han Chinese historically wore a robe or a shirt for the upper garment, while the lower garment was commonly a pleated skirt

[pushkar.bhat]

The IN should also factor in the PLAAF and PLAN stationing their H-6 bombers and land- based naval fighters from Paki air bases at Gwadar,Karachi,etc. The venerable Tupolev bombers armed with LR stand-off missiles will also pose a formidable threat. PlAN subs will also attempt at ingress into the IOR to shadow IN forces, wait outside IN bases and ports for opportune attacks. The IN's sub fleet must be immediately augmented with more subs of types in service ,Kilos and Scorpenes, if they are available with other navies and OEM builders.

Clip on sonar kits both for MCM duties as well as ASW , is another way in which capabilities of both IN and CG vessels can be enhanced.

Philip’s Sir, your points noted. Let me assure you that if the Pig-Stan enters the conflict they will be history. We will detect any move by Sugarland to move H-6 to Karachi even before they land there.

Any such basing facilities offered will be considered an act of War and will mean a response that will take pig land to Stone Age.

[hnair]

That Al Guardian article misses something that has been in front of our eyes since the 1980s, the massive An32 fleet (100 plus at this point) and the IL76/78 (15 plus) was raised just for this eventuality of PLA acting up and winter time deployment. Even the AI A320 of that era, with double-bogey main landing gear was for spartan runways up in the hills and can transport troops between various theaters for mustering. From 80s, the airfleet has only increased in capability since with induction of such assets like C17s (11), C130s (11), Chinooks (15), Dhruvs (60 plus) and a huge fleet of Mi17 (223 and counting). Almost all of them are night-capable and even the oldest platforms have been upgraded for night operations.

In the 80s, we had foregone road building et al and decided to go this route, based on Gen Sundarji's ideas about a flexible airborne response in the mountains than huge infra that India could ill afford CAPEX and then decades of OPEX in those days.

Things have changed and fixed infra is also catching up. But the huge airfleet is still around for the long winter and these heights are mostly MI17 accessible.

[williams]

Villagers help Indian troops face Chinese forces in Himalayas
Both sides prepare for winter with little hope of diplomatic outcome to border dispute

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -himalayas

With unwieldy and overstuffed duffel bags, rice sacks, heavy fuel cans and bamboo canes strapped to their backs, they trudge upwards to a Himalayan mountain peak known as Black Top, where hundreds of Indian army tents are stationed on the horizon.

That is very wrong sir, the Indian Army is in only six hills: Magar Hill, Gurung Hill, Rezang La, Rachana La, Mokhpari, and the biggest peak on the Finger 4 ridgeline. Officially, It took 20 days for us to get to these areas. We are very Dharmic and SDRE. We will never cross what the Chinese perceive as LAC and we are peace-loving only

[rajpa]

Re-announcing the capture of six hills resets the news cycle to a more positive statement of our own salami slicing. More captures should be expected now.

[RamSuresh]

The article does not say Black Top is under chinese occupation (or) is NOT under Indian occupation. Typical bureacracy, just like they said "no IA personnel is unaccounted for"

[Prasad]

Hiking up the mountains with a load strapped to your back is crying out for a tech solution. Electric winches/ziplines ?

[rpartha]

Hiking up the mountains with a load strapped to your back is crying out for a tech solution. Electric winches/ziplines ?

Yes. Although it is very proud thing, if and when the war starts getting logistics to the frontline will be difficult without civilian collateral...

[Davidrock]

Its a climb of 4500 feet from the flat grounds there, which are at 14000 feet.

But this area is more about dry winds and there is not much snow - correct me if wrong !
So best would be to build good trails that are easy to trek.

The good thing is we have supplies till the base of the hill so only 3-4 hours climb, as there are roads till the chusul area....its not like siachen where we need to air drop supplies

[Pratyush]

Hiking up the mountains with a load strapped to your back is crying out for a tech solution. Electric winches/ziplines ?

Have been thinking about that issue for some time.

Am thinking about something similar to Boston dynamics SPOT with an internal combustion engine.

[tsarkar]

Did you wonder why I wrote this?

Yes, I did wonder. And I'm still wondering. I'm probably just dense, but I have no idea what you're trying to say here. China can hit us in places A, B and C so... what? What should we do about it? You failed to specify anything, so the conclusion I drew, reasonably enough, was that you don't think we can do anything to mitigate the threat. Just "be afraid, be very afraid". Maybe that was not your intention, but that was what came across -- at least to me.

Looks like you didnt read my post completely either nor did you comprehend it. This is what I wrote earlier.

Which is why peace time occupation of key heights and areas is important. And atleast at Depsang they've come too close to both DBO airfield and DSDBO road.

There are contradictory reports of occupation of Helmet Top / Black Top. My point is simple. Park Dharmic concepts of respecting LAC aside. Occupy Vital Areas/Vital Points if it gives a tactical advantage while pushing/shoving/Punjabi rap is going on. Its better to do so before the shooting starts than after the shooting starts.

Here's the bottom line for me: (your scenario) China brings down artillery fire on DBO airstrip and the DSDBO road. You have ruled out airstrikes and cruise-missile strikes, so what is left for us?

Firstly, I never ruled out airstrikes or missile strikes. What I specifically said was

And sufficient missiles are simply not available for all taskings. Same with air strikes.

There is an economics of war. If we use a BrahMos missile or Spice bomb against every Chinese mortar or light artillery piece, we will spend ourselves out. And there are higher priority targets for relatively limited availability of missiles and air effort.

What should we do? Specifity in your response would be appreciated.

Occupy Vital Areas/Vital Points if it gives a tactical advantage while pushing/shoving/Punjabi rap is going on. Its better to do so before the shooting starts than after the shooting starts.

That was what those specific patrol points were supposed to achieve. It keeps the Chinese out of artillery range and keeps both the road and airfield open

[tsarkar]

Even the AI A320 of that era, with double-bogey main landing gear was for spartan runways up in the hills and can transport troops between various theaters for mustering.

Good you remember the old Indian Airlines A-320 with double-bogey MLG when airfields in remote areas were spartan. I read they were decommissioned a few years ago due to age.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... -by-ye2018

These if around could be refurbished as troop transports. We operate older Il-76 and An-32, so military operations unencumbered by civil aviation norms could be possible

[williams]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/indian-army-strengthens-hold-over-20-strategic-heights-in-eastern-ladakh-rafales-to-carry-out-sorties/story-MPufyYSGG0hoo6dCKUNThP.html

The armies of India and China are set to hold the sixth round of Corps Commander-level talks in the next couple of days to explore ways to defuse tension in eastern Ladakh even as India further bolstered its dominance in over 20 mountain heights around the friction points near the Pangong lake, government sources said on Sunday.

[jamwal]

Hiking up the mountains with a load strapped to your back is crying out for a tech solution. Electric winches/ziplines ?

Have been thinking about that issue for some time.

Am thinking about something similar to Boston dynamics SPOT with an internal combustion engine.

Winch/ziplines operated by hand as well as electric motors are commonly used in such areas.

There were a lot of them in most mountain areas few years back, not so many these days. Their use is limited by terrain. They're good enough if you just want to send something across a a gorge or up or down a steep mountain and if distances are not so large. For not so steep ridges, you'll need to erect tall poles, otherwise they will not work.

Here's me hanging in one in Spiti, next to an under construction bridge which made it obsolete.

[RajaRudra]

How many LAC we are having
1) Indian Claim Line
2) Chinese Claim Line
3) Official Readjusted Line - 6 tops named yesterday
4) Not Officially denied line - Black Top and Helmet Top
5) Line - that we have right to patrol - Despang

May be some tops are kept silently without official announcement so as to barter those for Fingers 4 to 8.
In all this confusion, Winter is setting in and unfortunately for Chinese, Winter starts from north to south. I.e, Chinese will start facing the winter first.

When all this happening .Govt is doing a typical out flanking by passing three important bills passed in parliament.

A game is getting played all over , lets see what the result / outcome will be in all directions.

[Paul]

PLA has always come off second best in hand to hand combat....kungfu videos not withstanding. It is time to lay the 10 feet chinaman theory to rest forever.

This from Nathu La in 1967
http://veekay-militaryhistory.blogspot. ... story.html

On 7 September the work started again on the laying the wire. This time about a hundred Chinese came to the fence and there was hand to hand fighting between the troops. Realising that they were unequal to the Jats, the Chinese withdrew and began pelting stones, the Grenadiers responding in the same manner.

They use the lodspeakers as cover for troop movement and distracting the troops

For about an hour and a half things appeared to be going well. The time was around 0745 hrs. From the vantage point we noticed that the number of Chinese opposing the fence had gradually reduced. The PA equipment on the Chinese side started a speech of Mao Tse Tung in Hindi. The volume of the PA equipment was unusually high and had shielded the noise of the commotion on account of the hand to hand fight. Just as we thought things are in control all hell was let loose. Every bunker and gun of the Chinese on North and South Shoulder started firing on the Indian troops laying the fence.

[darshan]

Due to chinese virus, not much of work was completed in Parliament sessions that were shortened. One good thing is that Modi and co are good at recalibrating and handling things as they bubble up. This is something that chinese overlooked and didn't understand about MAD. Now chinese will have to figure out how to handle the border issue that they caused to bubble up and MAD team that doesn't like to idle and let any time be wasted. MAD team had many plans that got derailed due to chinese virus and they are probably mad about it. MAD team won't be backing down without extracting similar return on investment that they were hoping to get in other areas without the virus and border issues in 2020.

Chinese are probably going to be wishing that they were much better off to not have MAD looking at this on daily basis with the kind of return on investment MAD expects for their time.

[pankajs]

This is actually a good question!

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 7009592320

Acclimatised troops equivalent to 3+ divisions in eastern Ladakh, possibly fourth division to be inducted. Guess who would be more worried than China itself?

[pankajs]

https://twitter.com/billbirtles/status/ ... 5238970368

The Global Times' attention-seeking editor Hu Xijin's message a bit more 'Red' on Weibo: "If we have no choice but war, we should first avoid direct conflict with the US. We can (instead) severely beat up a US running dog that always crosses our bottom line... to send a warning.'

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 8576476160

Who would that be?

The US dog that always crossed the Chinese bottomline?

[tandav]

Hiking up the mountains with a load strapped to your back is crying out for a tech solution. Electric winches/ziplines ?

I have a potential solution. Who to pitch this to? Can increase load carrying efficiency from 10kg to 120kg

[RamSuresh]

Here's me hanging in one in Spiti, next to an under construction bridge which made it obsolete.

This looks like sometime around 2016. I did the same (thanks to construction workers who were willing to drag this thing back). The pylons were ready at that time. The first vertical block (dont know what they are called) was being fixed that day. An old man had trekked all the way up from Kaza to do a Puja for that day. College girls (who were on vacation) from Chicham village used to bring tea to the construction workers and travel through the trolley. The bridge is now a selfie spot.

[chola]

Winch/ziplines operated by hand as well as electric motors are commonly used in such areas.

There were a lot of them in most mountain areas few years back, not so many these days. Their use is limited by terrain. They're good enough if you just want to send something across a a gorge or up or down a steep mountain and if distances are not so large. For not so steep ridges, you'll need to erect tall poles, otherwise they will not work.

Here's me hanging in one in Spiti, next to an under construction bridge which made it obsolete.

Wow!!! The folks on this thread are amazing! You'll never get me into a basket like that. I would be spewing bodily fluids from both ends. lol

[hnair]

Good you remember the old Indian Airlines A-320 with double-bogey MLG when airfields in remote areas were spartan. I read they were decommissioned a few years ago due to age.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... -by-ye2018

These if around could be refurbished as troop transports. We operate older Il-76 and An-32, so military operations unencumbered by civil aviation norms could be possible

Oh yes. Remember waiting to receive someone at Trivandrum airport in the early 90s with a relative, when a fuel-laden A320 which had just taken off for Middle-east had to return due to technical fault. There was a bit of panic as I learned that day about A320's lack of fuel dumping and fire-tenders go on standby etc for this class. Later the relative, who was in charge of IA ops said the double-bogey helps in landing under fuel-laden conditions and explained the secondary purpose.

Yeah, if they are around, they should be acquired dirt-cheap and used as troop carriers between zones. But I suspect they have been overused over 30 years by IA and probably not in an shape for harsher military operations.

[shyamd]

PLA has placed radars on certain peaks close to the border to keep tabs on IAF air fields. The IAF air drills/low flying is about familiarisation of terrain as well as combat air patrols. With PLA and India increasing numbers and moving troops around - this calls for a need to re-draw plans. It means more work for SF community.

We had some meetings with counterparts in Central asia..

Interesting to see the new 15 Corps Commander join the talks. I presume the MEA chap will know the 1993 agreements inside out - read chapter and verse. Making things joined up - bodes well.

[manjgu]

Winch/ziplines operated by hand as well as electric motors are commonly used in such areas.

There were a lot of them in most mountain areas few years back, not so many these days. Their use is limited by terrain. They're good enough if you just want to send something across a a gorge or up or down a steep mountain and if distances are not so large. For not so steep ridges, you'll need to erect tall poles, otherwise they will not work.

Here's me hanging in one in Spiti, next to an under construction bridge which made it obsolete.

Wow!!! The folks on this thread are amazing! You'll never get me into a basket like that. I would be spewing bodily fluids from both ends. lol

This is routine in hills ..crossed zanskar river many times in such a basket ...

[Picklu]

Some serious, bad ass ice climbing skills of IA troops !

https://www.facebook.com/10061305482109 ... 266650943/

That would make pro alpinist climbers jealous

It is from this series on HAWS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFrlnbQOWW0

For folks in India having amazon firestick, download the discovery+ app in it and you can see quite a few good indian military series. The 4 episodes on HAWS are pure bliss and put all the Chinese choreographed war prep drills in gutter. There are others on Jungle warefare school and inside submarine and so on.

I highly recommend them; watch and stop shaking that lungi.

[Ashokk]

Army commanders of India, China hold over 12-hour-long talks to ease Ladakh standoff

NEW DELHI: India on Monday pressed for an early and complete disengagement of Chinese troops from friction points in eastern Ladakh as their senior Army commanders held a sixth round of talks that primarily focused on implementing a five-point bilateral agreement to ease the prolonged border standoff, government sources said.
The latest round of Corps commander-level talks that began at around 9 am in Moldo on the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control (LAC) across India's Chushul sector in eastern Ladakh went on for over 12 hours and was still under way at 9 pm, the sources said.
It is learnt that the Indian delegation insisted on a time-bound implementation of the agreement finalised during the extensive talks between external affairs minister S Jaishankar and his Chinese counterpart Wang Yi in Moscow on September 10 on the sidelines of a Shanghai Cooperation Organisation(SCO) meet.
The Indian delegation is headed by Lt Gen Harinder Singh, the commander of the Leh-based 14 Corps of the Indian Army. For the first time, the Indian team for the military talks also included a senior official from the ministry of external affairs (MEA). MEA joint secretary Naveen Srivastava, who has been engaged in diplomatic talks with China on the border row under the framework of the Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination (WMCC) on border affairs, was part of the delegation. The team also comprised Lt Gen PGK Menon, who is expected to succeed Singh as the commander of the 14 Corps next month, the sources said.
The sources said the Indian team insisted on an early and complete disengagement of troops by Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) to end the four-and-a-half-month standoff, adding the agenda for the talks was to chart a specific timeline for implementation of the five-point agreement.

[vijayk]

Interesting to see the new 15 Corps Commander join the talks. I presume the MEA chap will know the 1993 agreements inside out - read chapter and verse. Making things joined up - bodes well.

bodes well for whom? Can you give little more info or not now?

[sanjayc]

Three year old news but relevant for the times

Chinese soldiers failed fitness tests because ‘they are too unfit and masturbate too much’

The Chinese army has revealed why it believes so many people have failed its fitness testing – and it makes for pretty bizarre reading. While some of the complaints make sense, with the military saying 20% failed because they were overweight, others are slightly less conventional. They include military advice to young people to cut down on video games, using their smartphones, and even masturbating. It has been forced to publish a list of principles for candidates to follow, which has been published in its mouthpiece the People’s Liberation Army Daily.

In one city, 57% of recruits failed the test.

The military said 8% of men had an enlarged vein in their scrotum, which they claim is caused by too much sitting down. This was attributed to ‘long time playing computer games, excessive masturbation, less exercise and so on’. A poor diet was also to blame for plenty of candidates’ ill health, with 25% failing blood and urine test due to drinking too much alcohol and fizzy drinks, the military said. The army said 46% of recruits failed a vision test because they spend too long staring at screens, including their phones. Other reasons for failure include candidates eating too much junk food, having sinus problems due to drinking poor quality water, and mental health issues.

https://metro.co.uk/2017/08/24/chinese- ... to=cbshare

[nam]

EAM dude going all the way to Chulshul, at those heights, probably PLA is playing games.

The Chini diplomats agree for disengagement, while PLA on the grounds is playing it's own agenda.

Looks like the LAC agenda is been driven by PLA. Pointless to talk to Chini Foreign minister.

[nam]

Lots of talk with the Chinis.. I am sure the disengagement was blocked, because we refused to stop our road build.

They must be willing to dislodge from few of the points in return for stopping road build and reverting economic steps..

I hope Army engineers have build the crucial feeder roads, because our babus agree to stop road build in return for Chini u turn..

[Sanju]

Lots of talk with the Chinis.. I am sure the disengagement was blocked, because we refused to stop our road build.

They must be willing to dislodge from few of the points in return for stopping road build and reverting economic steps..

I hope Army engineers have build the crucial feeder roads, because our babus agree to stop road build in return for Chini u turn..

Nothing of that sort is going to happen. The babus aren't calling the shots, MADS is and babus like any other patriotic Indian will do as directed. We are united in this and let no chini bot think otherwise.

[pankajs]

^^ Is this news or speculation on your part?

[abhik]

Going by recent open source low resolution sat images, there has been a significant increase in deployment (or at least "activity" that shows up on sat images) over the past 2-3 weeks by the PLA, with some completely new camps (or possibly supply dumps) coming up in rear areas. My guess is that (1) they are rattled after Aug 30 and adding more forces and supplies to pose a more credible attack position (use that as a bargaining chip in the talks) and general CYA to prevent any further readjustments OR (2) Preparing fro an actual attack. I am leaning on option (1).

[suryag]

what do they discuss over 12 hr sessions and that too having about 8-10 iterations of these sessions. Isnt it clear, you vacate or not vacate, we vacate or do not vacate, heck even if they want to discuss the map in detail it wont take so many of these long sessions, in a sense this tires out the Corps leadership as they have to debrief with Delhi once the discussion is over.

[pankajs]

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/grou ... 2020-09-19
Ladakh's cold war

[RCase]

what do they discuss over 12 hr sessions and that too having about 8-10 iterations of these sessions. Isnt it clear, you vacate or not vacate, we vacate or do not vacate, heck even if they want to discuss the map in detail it wont take so many of these long sessions, in a sense this tires out the Corps leadership as they have to debrief with Delhi once the discussion is over.

It takes a while for hot chai and biskoots to be delivered via drones to that many people!

Maybe the interlocutors should not be using complicated words with the Chinese like 'vacate', 'full disengagement' etc.
Should try:
'Wah Da Fock you doan understand?'
'He go there', 'He go here'
'If he make wong and come over line, he get ding in his dong'
'If he bring guandao, he get shot in gandoh'
'If he be like dum guy and bring more men, he get shoot like turkey from ridge top'

[Vayutuvan]

@RCase ji, classic.