Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 25 Sep 2020 19:12

The video is shrouded in mystery, saar. Tank is hidden, target is also hidden.

Only the missile leaving the gun barrel and jettisoning a booster is shown.

But we are nit picking, saar.

I would immediately order 1000 of them for our 124 Arjun's on the western sector.
( They are not inducted in eastern sector where they are greatly required , as T 90 and T 72 are deemed more suitable for these regions by our Armoured Corps).

srin · Post by **srin** » 26 Sep 2020 08:21

I hope it can be adapted to 125mm barrel too, so we don't need to buy Invar anymore

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 26 Sep 2020 22:38

Goldmine of an article of the Bhishma
https://tass.ru/v-strane/6405976
The images are truly spectacular.
Happy weekend!
(Brain says T-90 is not too mediocre but Heart can't wait for the Mk-1Alpha Arjun to enter service)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Sep 2020 22:56

Clicked on the link above and the irony of the title, which I have reproduced in bold below...

How the T-90S got into the Indian Army and saved the Russian tank building

Who will save Arjun?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 26 Sep 2020 23:34

Saved Sukhoi by payin 100% advance for MKI, Mig with 29k order and Tank industry with T90.

While Indians starve for jobs. The 29ks turned out to be not so great the T90s junk.

Mer Bharat .....!

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 27 Sep 2020 00:02

MeshaVishwas wrote:Goldmine of an article of the Bhishma
https://tass.ru/v-strane/6405976
The images are truly spectacular.
Happy weekend!
(Brain says T-90 is not too mediocre but Heart can't wait for the Mk-1Alpha Arjun to enter service)

from the article

The success of the tank tests in the Thar desert provided the Uralvagonzavod corporation with an important contract, saved the enterprise and the entire armored industry of Russian industry from bankruptcy

Don't we all know the capabilities of T-90 electronics in Thar desert heat and how after buying those tanks, Indian army had to fit Air conditioners on the tanks to cool the electronics

just that line is good enough to prove how BS of an article it is.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 27 Sep 2020 00:12

Vivek K wrote:

Saved Sukhoi by payin 100% advance for MKI, Mig with 29k order and Tank industry with T90.

While Indians starve for jobs. The 29ks turned out to be not so great the T90s junk.

Mer Bharat .....!

you forgot about that ship yard that rebuilt vikramaditya carrier.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 27 Sep 2020 01:16

^^
Saar, it is from a Russian pov. Take it FWIW.
They also convieniently miss out the scam they pulled on us wrt the ToT.
I think the name of the FSAPDS aptly sums up the Bhishma.
Aam.
They(Roos) also run with the Pakis and hunt with the Indians(like basically every other foreign nation) by selling us Tanks and selling the Pakis attack heptrs.
Atmanirbhar journey needs acceleration.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Sep 2020 00:15

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Sep 2020 00:18

If Ru milware was so pathetic,why are we ( IA) buying more T-90s,etc.? Plus they're right now doing yeoman service both on land,T-72s/ 90s and in the air,29Ks,ready to wage war againct the Chinkos. Please give the IAF and IA due respect for their decisions supported by the MOD/ GOI.Plus Arjun is too large to be transported to Ladakh too, while out T-series MBTs outgun the PLA's light tanks..

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Sep 2020 06:24

Exactly our question - why ARE we buying T90s at all?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 28 Sep 2020 06:26

Vivek K wrote:Exactly our question - why ARE we buying T90s at all?

SIrji please don't ask such existentialist questions.

Live with the fact that the Arjun was DoA.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Sep 2020 23:18

self deleted!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Sep 2020 00:03

Vivek K wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
SIrji please don't ask such existentialist questions.
Sirji - care to elaborate why not?
Live with the fact that the Arjun was DoA.
Really? And you have that on whose authority or source? Or is that your opinion?

The question remains - when the Arjun beat the T-90 in IA conducted trials, why were orders of T-90 placed? Is India building a merit based new order or the older order continueth? All of us should then have Chai Biskoot and like in PRC, not be allowed to raise questions that raise the specter of discomfort in providing an answer. Is that the new BRF?

You cannot do sarcasm I see...

It’s DOA because despite all the trials you conduct the IA is wedded to the T90 class of arms vehicles..No amount of trial winning seems to be budging the IA no.....
In terms of authority I don;t need any. The proof is in the pudding innit....The day we know that the Abrams was not coming to Pakistan was the day Arjun was DOA....No threat—-no need.
However in terms of thinking within the Army ya I have as close a source you could get at that point in time short of the CO of the 43rd.
Fact is Arjun’s technical excellence still has not translated into meaningful orders. So The only explanations you would have is that the Arjun forces us to look at our armD doctrines (which we are no wanting to do) or that we attribute ulterior motives to all the DGMF’s and Chief’s since the Arjun reached a level of maturity....

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 29 Sep 2020 01:02

My bad Sirji!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Sep 2020 02:01

Vivek K wrote:My bad Sirji!

No worries mate.

The fact is that the Arjun saga pains me immensely but so does the INSAS saga.

The fact is that COIN has sucked so much energy that there seems to be a stasis in higher military thinking or RMA.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Sep 2020 07:21

Better synergy between desi end user and the DRDO is required,so that the product fits the requirement.It is no longer a " take it or leave " attitude that is being accepted by the 3 services.They have fiirang alternatives that could serve them better.I've often asked why an Arjun chassis could not have tried out a T-90 turret,smaller crew,lighter tank, more attractive proposition.The French did something similar with a 3-crew Le Clerc.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Sep 2020 08:23

Philip wrote:Better synergy between desi end user and the DRDO is required,so that the product fits the requirement.It is no longer a " take it or leave " attitude that is being accepted by the 3 services.They have fiirang alternatives that could serve them better.I've often asked why an Arjun chassis could not have tried out a T-90 turret,smaller crew,lighter tank, more attractive proposition.The French did something similar with a 3-crew Le Clerc.

Arre. Comrade I was thinking the same..Why not the t90 turret on the Arjun Chassis.

Then I realised that the Autoloader and the carousel are part of the t series turret and that you would import the ammo cook off problem to the Arjun as well.

The two piece ammo crates creates an issue if we go with the Leclerc autoloader design wherein the shells are in the turret at the back.

No easy answers Admiral of the Fleet...

Fact of the matter is that the tin can was designed because the human cost of that design was something the Soviets could live with and demonstrated they could live with as evidenced from the clean up operations during and post Chernobyl.

When we did not have an option then perhaps excusable but when we have an option or the knowhow then not excusable for us to display that kind of philosophy...

What I cannot figure out was the decision to go rifled for the Arjun...

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 29 Sep 2020 08:32

ks_sachin wrote:The fact is that COIN has sucked so much energy that there seems to be a stasis in higher military thinking or RMA.

This is true at so many levels:

1) Like you say, it has limited our thinking and ability to get our head above water
2) It has emasculated us: we thought that a mosquito like Pakistan is our enemy, thereby dragging ourselves to their level
3) It has affected our arms purchases, doctrines etc
4) It has made us oblivious to the Chinese threat
5) The actual costs imposed: manpower, money etc, have been enormous

From all these, I'd say that the Chinese-funded Pakistan's jihadi game in Kashmir has been a hugely successful asymmetrical war (for them). Something for us to dispassionately analyze, learn lessons to avoid & also use these lessons to pay them back in their own COIN

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 29 Sep 2020 14:08

Rakesh wrote:Clicked on the link above and the irony of the title, which I have reproduced in bold below...

How the T-90S got into the Indian Army and saved the Russian tank building

Who will save Arjun?

Dear Admiral

Should the question be ?

What is there that needs saving by Arjun ?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Sep 2020 14:40

Khalsa wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Clicked on the link above and the irony of the title, which I have reproduced in bold below...

How the T-90S got into the Indian Army and saved the Russian tank building

Who will save Arjun?
Dear Admiral

Should the question be ?

What is there that needs saving by Arjun ?

Khalsa sirji,

The irony is that after foisting on us their tank philosophy they have embraced more modern concepts that are seen in Western tanks.

The autonomous turret in the T14 affords better crew survivability and comfort - have read. Owing to the crew being is a more protected crew cpartment. Tank buffs may correct me.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 29 Sep 2020 22:21

Rohit Vats on Twitter:

"A possible clue on the Unit fielding BMP -II in this video"

4 BMP -IIs are shown in some area in N-E, presumably deployed against China, one vehicle has " Gadra" written on it, might possibly be 75th Armoured Regt. raised in 1971 on Gadra Road.

( Video has disclaimer " cleared by Authority on the Ground").

Mods pls delete if any issues.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 29 Sep 2020 23:02

BMPs belong to Mechanized Infantry and Guards battalions -- not Armoured Regiments. If it says "Gadra" (I haven't seen the video), it is probably 6 Mech Inf (ex 1 GARHWAL).

nam · Post by **nam** » 29 Sep 2020 23:20

ks_sachin wrote:
What I cannot figure out was the decision to go rifled for the Arjun...

Because of the 105MM British gun in IA.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 29 Sep 2020 23:29

Isn’t rifling of Arjun for HESH rounds ? IIRC, IA planned to use that for rearranging walls of bunkers and temporary fortifications in urban areas. Khan was planning to put it in the AT gun variant of Stryker, based on lessons learned over past two decades. Don’t know status

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Sep 2020 23:32

ParGha wrote:BMPs belong to Mechanized Infantry and Guards battalions -- not Armoured Regiments. If it says "Gadra" (I haven't seen the video), it is probably 6 Mech Inf (ex 1 GARHWAL).

Correct sir.

However did 1 Garwhal also share the battle honour with the another regiment?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Sep 2020 23:35

hnair wrote:Isn’t rifling of Arjun for HESH rounds ? IIRC, IA planned to use that for rearranging walls of bunkers and temporary fortifications in urban areas. Khan was planning to put it in the AT gun variant of Stryker, based on lessons learned over past two decades. Don’t know status

Thanks you are right. It was the British gun we copied. Even now the Challenged is the only MBT with a rifled main gun AFAIK.

What a fiasco.

Design a tank to fight an adversary that did no materialise.

Design a gun to fight in an env the tank is likely never to operate in.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 30 Sep 2020 00:59

Why is it a fiasco? The rifled gun doesn't stop it from firing regular APFSDS rounds. With the long rod penetrator advantage of single piece ammo it is still better than the 125mm smoothbore equipped T-90.

nam · Post by **nam** » 30 Sep 2020 01:10

The drawbacks I can see is the low barrel life and unique ammo, which is not available anywhere else. These are generic drawbacks also seen on Chally. But it has not caused major deficiency, either with Chally or with us.

I presume the muzzle velocity would be lower than smoothbore, due to the spinning. However I presume rifled barrels are heavier?, allowing for higher pressure and equal muzzle velocity?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 30 Sep 2020 01:34

nachiket wrote:Why is it a fiasco? The rifled gun doesn't stop it from firing regular APFSDS rounds. With the long rod penetrator advantage of single piece ammo it is still better than the 125mm smoothbore equipped T-90.

Agree. Fiasco is a strong word.
Here are details of the gun I had from some source.

Arjun Mk.1 is equipped with 120mm rifled calibre Length 55 main gun.
The 120 mm rifled gun for MBT Arjun is made of special steel.
The gun barrel has been partially autofrettaged to a pressure of 800 MPa to achieve a proof pressure of the order of 612 MPa.
This is the first indigenously developed gun capable of firing at such a high service pressure achieving muzzle velocity of 1650 m/s and above. The gun is fitted with FRP Thermal Insulating Jacket to obviate differential thermal effect.

The Arjun recoil system is a compact, lightweight, short recoil hydro-spring type, capable of absorbing the thrust of high pressure and high velocity gun. The system consists of two hydro-spring buffers mounted diagonally to meet the stringent space requirement inside the fighting compartment. The high pressure and durable packing rings coupled with high surface-finish of mating components ensure longer life and high reliability. This is a sealed system, which requires practically no maintenance.
Arjun tank uses T
two types of ammunition, namely, Fin Stabilised Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) and High Explosive Squash Head (HESH).
The complete round of Arjun ammunition system consists of a semi-combustible cartridge case with steel obturating cup, semi-combustible primer, propellant, additive liner for wear reduction of gun and FSAPDS shot/HESH shell. The semi-combustible cartridge case (SCCC) ammunition has the advantage of reduction of round and chamber length, weight of the round, ease of handling, higher muzzle velocity, higher rate of fire, longer barrel life, and logistics.

FSAPDS is the primary antitank ammunition for Arjun. The complete FSAPDS round consists of semi-combustible cartridge case, semi-combustible primer with steel obturating cup, triple-base propellant, and wear-reducing additive liner. The sub-calibre kinetic energy projectile has a very high-density long rod tungsten alloy penetrator enclosed in a three-piece sabot segment and a tail unit for in-flight stability with tracer. This hyper velocity ammunition can defeat all the modern targets at a range of 5000 m and above. The accuracy and consistency of the shot is of the order of 0.2 mil standard deviation.

High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) is the secondary ammunition for Arjun and is effective against a variety of soft targets, tanks, fortifications, etc. The complete HESH round consists of a semi-combustible cartridge case, primer with steel obturating cup, and a single-base propellant. The optimised explosive composition of HESH defeats rolled homogenous armour plate detaching a scab of about 9 kg mass moving with a velocity of 100 to 120 m/s. Besides the scabbing effect, blast and shock imparts a tremendous jolt to the enemy tank stripping off explosive reactive armour and incapacitating the crew severely, thereby affecting their fighting capabilities. The accuracy of the HESH is of the order of 0.25 mil standard deviation.

The barrel life is 500 EFC.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 30 Sep 2020 14:29

ks_sachin wrote:
Khalsa wrote:
Dear Admiral

Should the question be ?

What is there that needs saving by Arjun ?
Khalsa sirji,

The irony is that after foisting on us their tank philosophy they have embraced more modern concepts that are seen in Western tanks.

The autonomous turret in the T14 affords better crew survivability and comfort - have read. Owing to the crew being is a more protected crew cpartment. Tank buffs may correct me.

aye Sachin Sir. I am truly with you.

One of the thing that I wanted us to all mull about is the way these eastern and western houses Member of Parliments, Deputy Prime Ministers or Senators from Texas manage to fight so hard for their constituency that they manage to push down the throats of other countries their products.

A prime example is
the acceleration of the Su-30s by Boris Yeltsin.

How do we improve the link for your and my local factory producing Dhruvs or Arjuns and make it a semi-political semi-electioneering issue ?

i.e I the commoner want to vote for you because my daughter is working at the factory producing APUs for the Desi Bofors guns being assembled by OFB.

and hence my question .... Arjun had nothing to save. Arjun had no factory and no vested interests or genuine interests to save.
How do we link those two ?

I am genuinely asking this to everyone.

How do we make this a common question that a commoner asks of a man who comes to asks for his vote ?

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 30 Sep 2020 15:43

Khalsa wrote: How do we make this a common question that a commoner asks of a man who comes to asks for his vote ?

+1, certain problems are only solvable by the customers. In this case the voters themselves. The education of voters need to be increased about the various issues. MIC need to be distributed across the country and privatized. Education and training centers need to be established that are linked to MIC that has no irrelevant courses and structures that can be exploited by BIF. Proudness, employment, competition, etc. will take off from there. Nationalism and pride are must elements. Without them, it will be nothing more than govt job. Reservations and quotas must go. As long as they are there, there won't be any solidarity and there goes nationalism and pride.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 30 Sep 2020 23:37

darshan wrote:
Khalsa wrote: How do we make this a common question that a commoner asks of a man who comes to asks for his vote ?
+1, certain problems are only solvable by the customers. In this case the voters themselves. The education of voters need to be increased about the various issues. MIC need to be distributed across the country and privatized. Education and training centers need to be established that are linked to MIC that has no irrelevant courses and structures that can be exploited by BIF. Proudness, employment, competition, etc. will take off from there. Nationalism and pride are must elements. Without them, it will be nothing more than govt job. Reservations and quotas must go. As long as they are there, there won't be any solidarity and there goes nationalism and pride.

I agree with you.

The current MIC is 99% in the Public Sector. Those jobs are secure whether there are any orders or not. Therefore, even the State CMs (for example the TN CM for the Avadi factory, or the WB CM for the Ishapore factory) do not lobby for orders.

Public education will take a long time. Voters did not vote out the Congress even after the defeat in 1962.

Even the Private Sector voices have been feeble. Big companies like Tata, Mahindra, L&T, and Bharat Forge, even after making heavy investments, have not been able to nudge the Government to issue orders faster.

Even when we had very dynamic Defense Ministers like Manohar Parriker and George Fernandes, the Finnance Ministry was able to slow down their momemntum.

Right now, only thing that will move things faster IMHO, is a personal interest and push from the Prime Minister himself.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 01 Oct 2020 16:37

New Indian Tank - The L&T tank for Indian Army

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 03 Oct 2020 00:02

DRDO has started the Trials for T-72 Ajeya Mark 2 Tanks. It has host of upgrades like:
-1,000 HP Multi Fuel Engine developed indigenously replacing the 780 HP Engines.
-DRDO developed ERA Mark II (same configuration and power as the one that are on T90 tanks)
-Israeli Thermla Vision systems which enables identifying targets at 3 Kms in the Night
-Out of the total 1700 T-72 tanks, 969 will be upgraded and the rest will be phased out and replaced with FRCV.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Oct 2020 05:17

KSS,the T-90 turret has resolved the ammo storage issue.The Army recognition site has good pics,diagrams of the design,inside of the turret, and other details.
===<admin note> misleading information on the L&T venture deleted, it is clearly mentioned the gun is 105mm </admin note>===

John · Post by **John** » 03 Oct 2020 05:21

Sprut-SD isn’t even being purchased by Russia due to issues such as oil leak why are we even considering it?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 03 Oct 2020 05:38

Vips wrote:DRDO has started the Trials for T-72 Ajeya Mark 2 Tanks. It has host of upgrades like:
-1,000 HP Multi Fuel Engine developed indigenously replacing the 780 HP Engines.
-DRDO developed ERA Mark II (same configuration and power as the one that are on T90 tanks)
-Israeli Thermla Vision systems which enables identifying targets at 3 Kms in the Night
-Out of the total 1700 T-72 tanks, 969 will be upgraded and the rest will be phased out and replaced with FRCV.

One more mod is definitely needed on the T72 and T90 series of tanks. Attach a bustle ammunition storage compartment with blowoff panels that can store the non-autoloader ammo stored in the hull and in the turret. An easy mod that can improve survivability of specialist personnel in actual combat.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 03 Oct 2020 11:08

John wrote:Sprut-SD isn’t even being purchased by Russia due to issues such as oil leak why are we even considering it?

As per a report the Russian "suggested" it to the RM when he visited, i.e. we didn't actually ask for it. IMO that is the most believe scenario, with the Natashas pushing the emergency acquisition of this junk behind the scenes.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 03 Oct 2020 13:27

sudeepj wrote:
One more mod is definitely needed on the T72 and T90 series of tanks. Attach a bustle ammunition storage compartment with blowoff panels that can store the non-autoloader ammo stored in the hull and in the turret. An easy mod that can improve survivability of specialist personnel in actual combat.

T90M has bustle storage.
There is no non- autoloader ammo in the hull.
However the carousel feeding the autoloader is the problem and am not sure if the 22 rounds in the carousel are protected.