Indian Military Helicopters

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 29 Sep 2020 16:20

The LCH lsp has also had its ground run. A great day for HAL- congrats to them.

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 29 Sep 2020 16:40

I like the new aggressive HAL. It takes huge courage in Indian ecosystem to go ahead and make LSP putting their own money even with no orders. Their aggressiveness in HTT-40 and this show is highly promising.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 29 Sep 2020 17:00

Deliveries of ALH so far from old orders.
IA 145nos
IAF 76 nos
CG 4 nos
IN 8 nos
Others 29 nos
Of 73 current oder book 38 nos produced.
Total order 335 nos.( 300 produced)
Futher 6 nos order for IA reported.
Total 341. over by 2022.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 29 Sep 2020 17:20

Post 2022 111nos NUH can be delivered in 5 years @24/year.
Then total production run will be for 452 helicopters.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 29 Sep 2020 21:25

Bharadwaj wrote:The LCH lsp has also had its ground run. A great day for HAL- congrats to them.

Best news of the week for me!

But what an utterly pathetic state of affairs- HAL has gone above and beyond what any other OEM on this planet would do for a customer; built its products in anticipation of an official order on the OEM’s own dime (and hence own risk) whilst the services have regularly bashed HAL for perceived shortcomings*.

So these LCH LSP airframes could be handed over in a matter of weeks from date of the contract signature (usually the stipulation is within 36 months of contract signature, Boeing actually took 48 months to deliver the first AH-64E to the IAF), does the IA/IAF have the capacity to induct them that quickly?

* whilst HAL has never publicly rebutted them and pointed out that when they produce faster the services don’t have the capacity to absorb them so they end up stockpiling the birds

Anyway, echoing the sentiment- good for HAL, they can’t be accused of taking a chalta hai attitude these days.

Let’s just hope they get very aggressive with the NUH contest, only 35 ALH/Rudra airframes to be made in 2021-22 (less than 18/year) so failing any new orders within 18 months the ALH production line will be closed for good which would be utterly heartbreaking as this is a world class product and sub-400 units doesn’t to it justice for its production run. It’s an advanced airframe that can keep being modified and updated for years to come.

111 order for panthers assembled in India as the ALH production line closes might be too much for my heart to take.

HAL’s biggest issue today is their inability to penetrate the export market (for that they need to get the ALH FAA/EASA certified) and get less dependant on the Indian market for orders

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 29 Sep 2020 23:51

HAL rolls out 300th ALH Dhruv, Ground test of first LSP LCH done.

In a major landmark in indigenous weapon production programme, the 300th Advanced Light Helicopterb (AHL), christened Dhruv, rolled out from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) hangar in Bengaluru on Tuesday.

At present, the three services operate 226 Shrubs if different variants. These include 162 by the Army, 56 by the Air Force and 8 by the Navy according to information placed in Parliament by the defence ministry this month. In addition to other government agencies, including the Coast Guard, some other countries have also inducted this helicopter.

While the Dhruv is a transport helicopter capable of ferrrying up to 14 passengers, it also has an armed variant called the Rudra.

Speaking on the occasion, R Madhavan, Chairman-cum-Managing Director, HAL, said that the ALH never looked back from the day when the prototype took its maiden flight on August 30, 1992, and has since evolved into a world class helicopter with its unparalleled performance.

“The evolution from ALH Mark-I to Mark-IV has been phenomenal and is a boost to the indigenous design and development of helicopters”, he stated.

The roll-out certificate of the 300th helicopter was handed over to GVS Bhaskar, Chief Executive Officer, Helicopter Complex by YK Sharma, Additional Director General (South Zone), Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA).

“Rolling out of the 300th ALH is a testimony to the capabilities HAL has built over the years with concerted efforts of employees and customer support,” Bhaskar said “With more ALH getting inducted into the services our focus on customer support is ever increasing. With over 2,80,000 flying hours ALH has proven to be a multirole helicopter for Any Mission, Any Place, Any Time”, he added.

Currently, HAL is producing 73 ALHs contracted by the services. This includes 41 for the Army, 16 for the Indian Navy and 16 for the Indian Coast Guard. Out of this, 38 ALHs have already been produced and the remaining will be rolled out by 2022.

On this occasion, the ‘Ground Run’ of the first Limited Series Production (LSP) of Light Combat Helicopter, was also carried out. This project has been taken up by HAL proactively while the order from the Services on HAL is in process. The LCH was piloted by Gp Capt Hari Krishnan Nair S (Retd), Chief Test Pilot and Gp Capt CG Narasimha Prasad (Retd), Senior Flight Test Engineer of Flight Operations in the Rotary Wing

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 30 Sep 2020 11:00

ManuJ wrote:
On the other hand, the armed forces are raising an alarm over the fast-depleting stock of antiquated Cheetah and Chetaks:
They have urged the government to fast-track two long-pending 'Make in India' projects to build such light utility helicopters as well as ensure defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) delivers its own under-development choppers in requisite numbers within the required timeframes.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 374055.cms

If there is such an emergency, how about doing things in parallel and in a timely manner for a change?

A simple naive question : The options presented for replacing Chetak/Cheetah are Ka 226T and LUH, both of which have some way to go procedurally (Ka 226T in things like ToT and other negotiations, and LUH in getting the FOC in 2021, hopefully. Neither of which ought to be showstoppers, but which do impose delays/complications/arguments that will be used against it)

What stops the heavier, twin engined dhruv Mk III from being considered as part of the replacement ? It's already been produced, it already flies to siachen, it has the shakti engine.

It's the job of the utility helicopter that has to be done, what makes it necessary that it has to be 3 ton or single engine ? Surely being able to carry more payload or have an extra engine for redundancy shouldn't be an issue ? Why does it have to be a 1:1 match ?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Sep 2020 12:26

^^ Accessibility to small postage stamp sized helipads for which a 5.5 ton helicopter will be too large. Also the ability of the soil/rocks/snow/ice to take the weight of 5.5 tonnes vis-a-vis 3 tonnes

A needle goes places where a sword cant.

The water tank on the roof of my house is larger than this helipad. I'll feel challenged parking my car in space so small. And our pilots land helicopters there!

My deepest respects for the pilots who fly in these circumstances.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 30 Sep 2020 13:30

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1311176433616564225

FIRST PHOTO: The first Light Combat Helicopter limited series production (LSP) airframe that had its inaugural ground-run yesterday. In the cockpit are Gp Capts Hari Nair & CG Narasimha Prasad. https://livefistdefence.com/2020/06/1st ... opter.html

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 30 Sep 2020 13:32

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1311184848552247296

FIRST ON LIVEFIST: The first Light Combat Helicopter limited series production (LCH-LSP) airframe on on its first ground run yesterday in Bengaluru. https://bit.ly/3489jVG

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Sep 2020 13:34

Congratulations, Hari Nair, on the first ground run of LCH LSP! Its amazing creating history with every new step.

A couple of questions -

1. Given that hingeless rotors are not technically compatible to the Naval folding rotor requirement, why doesnt HAL develop a rotor system specifically for the Naval requirement?

2. Can HAL implement the two segmented rotor blades on a couple of Naval ALH helicopters out of the 16 on order? If those orders are too advanced in construction to modify, can HAL build a prototype of the two segment rotor blades on a Dhruv as its own investment?

The reason I am suggesting point 2 is that if HAL builds a helicopter meeting NUH RFP specifications, then it wins the battle hand down. No one will take a decision that would be later questioned by CAG, Parliament or Judiciary.

Just like HTT-40 meeting and exceeding PC-7 parameters. Details here http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/01/ ... tt-40.html.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Sep 2020 13:42

The exhausts look modified upwards in the LSP

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 30 Sep 2020 14:20

tsarkar wrote:Congratulations, Hari Nair, on the first ground run of LCH LSP! Its amazing creating history with every new step.

A couple of questions -

1. Given that hingeless rotors are not technically compatible to the Naval folding rotor requirement, why doesnt HAL develop a rotor system specifically for the Naval requirement?

2. Can HAL implement the two segmented rotor blades on a couple of Naval ALH helicopters out of the 16 on order? If those orders are too advanced in construction to modify, can HAL build a prototype of the two segment rotor blades on a Dhruv as its own investment?

There was news report that the dozen old naval Dhruv delivered to IN and CG will also be modified as new 32 naval Dhruv to be delivered to IN and CG with the one main rotor blade in front and 2 side rotors folded back. CG is satisfied with the new folding mechanism and have modified ship hangers so that naval Dhruv will be used for ship borne operations.
I think in future segmented main rotor blades can be refitted to these 44 naval Dhruvs along with the required modifications.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Sep 2020 17:04

sankum wrote:There was news report that the dozen old naval Dhruv delivered to IN and CG will also be modified as new 32 naval Dhruv to be delivered to IN and CG with the one main rotor blade in front and 2 side rotors folded back. CG is satisfied with the new folding mechanism and have modified ship hangers so that naval Dhruv will be used for ship borne operations.
I think in future segmented main rotor blades can be refitted to these 44 naval Dhruvs along with the required modifications.

Can you give a link to the news report you are referring to? Or any link that indicates Coast Guard helicopters will be using a two side rotor folding solution?

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 30 Sep 2020 17:50

https://www.google.com/amp/s/swarajyama ... navy-ships

There are other news reports and CG chief interview on new rotor folding and operations from ship. Will search and post.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 30 Sep 2020 18:06

Not getting that interview of CG chief . Very difficult to get old interview by Google search.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Sep 2020 18:06

sankum wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/swarajyama ... navy-ships

There are other news reports and CG chief interview on new rotor folding and operations from ship. Will search and post.

The Swarajya Magazine refers to a Defence News article but the link points to their main site and not the specific news article.

I would be happy to read the other news reports and CH chief interview on his satistaction with the new rotor folding and operations from ship once you post them.

While coast guard hangers look spacious, they are used to store other aviation material including oil dispersants for pollution control. Not sure how the front rotor would fit unless both ICG and HAL have confirmed the two rotor blade folding solution.

Looking forward to reading your additional links.

I am also eager to hear Hari Nair's POV on finding a solution to this issue

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 30 Sep 2020 18:14

sankum wrote:Not getting that interview of CG chief . Very difficult to get old interview by Google search.

No worries, lets wait to understand from Hari Nair.

After all, he and his colleagues are working on the cutting edge of this technology solving super complex problems.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 30 Sep 2020 18:17

tsarkar wrote:^^ Accessibility to small postage stamp sized helipads for which a 5.5 ton helicopter will be too large. Also the ability of the soil/rocks/snow/ice to take the weight .

Thank you. I've seen similar pics. Wondered what it would take to create larger helipads. A construction problem; possibly complicated by terrain selection not to be in sight of enemy ? And nature of terrain..

And dhruv can surely be used for some of the helipads/location in interim? Reduce logistics challenges while cheetah/cheetah is phased out and luh is ramped up ?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 30 Sep 2020 19:02

No reference provided ... FWIW

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 0255781888

So the flyaway cost of HAL LCH is Rs 125 crores ($17 million).

Pretty good.

OK .. found a Business Standrad report talking of it
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 464_1.html
Light combat helicopters being built for Rs 125 crore each, says HAL

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 30 Sep 2020 19:06

HAL has allocated Rs 1800 Crores from its internal resources and has started work on 9 air frames in anticipation of the order for 15 LCH. They intend to hand over 9 LCH as soon as the order is formally placed(expected in December).

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 30 Sep 2020 19:49

I think 1800cr could include cost of the assembly line (rigs, tooling, etc).

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 30 Sep 2020 21:40

tsarkar wrote:Congratulations, Hari Nair, on the first ground run of LCH LSP! Its amazing creating history with every new step.

A couple of questions -

1. Given that hingeless rotors are not technically compatible to the Naval folding rotor requirement, why doesnt HAL develop a rotor system specifically for the Naval requirement?

2. Can HAL implement the two segmented rotor blades on a couple of Naval ALH helicopters out of the 16 on order? If those orders are too advanced in construction to modify, can HAL build a prototype of the two segment rotor blades on a Dhruv as its own investment?

The reason I am suggesting point 2 is that if HAL builds a helicopter meeting NUH RFP specifications, then it wins the battle hand down. No one will take a decision that would be later questioned by CAG, Parliament or Judiciary.

Just like HTT-40 meeting and exceeding PC-7 parameters. Details here http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/01/ ... tt-40.html.

In the interview with director of RWRDC he mentioned the new blade design for MK.3 will be ready by July 2022 so it seems to me they are making a NUH prototype on their own dime

+ regarding LCH LSP roll out, great great stuff!

Great day

but regarding the counter measure suite (CMS) interested to see if they deliver it clean like this as it’s still IOC configuration or if by the time it is painted and finished it will have its CMS fitted or does that have to wait to FOC?

CMS is customer nominated equipment which usually is fitted and certified post IOC (see LUH and rescue hoist/FLIR)

+ HAL’s RWRDC gave away that Rudra is onto phase 2 which includes installation of DIRCM. Rudra has acted as a test bed for the LCH’s systems so far and DIRCM was always planned for LCH

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 01 Oct 2020 05:48

JTull wrote:I think 1800cr could include cost of the assembly line (rigs, tooling, etc).

It looks for 15 LCH at 125 crores each (Rs 1875 Crores)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Oct 2020 02:23

tsarkar, The contract for ALH has to be modified to make those changes. But MoD can fund HAL to make two ALH with the two segemented blades. Maybe they will do that as demonstrator

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Oct 2020 02:24

How much does an ALH cost?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Oct 2020 05:22

ramana wrote:tsarkar, The contract for ALH has to be modified to make those changes. But MoD can fund HAL to make two ALH with the two segemented blades. Maybe they will do that as demonstrator

HAL already doing it with internal funds. But one ALH only AFAIK.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Oct 2020 08:27

Indranil wrote:
ramana wrote:tsarkar, The contract for ALH has to be modified to make those changes. But MoD can fund HAL to make two ALH with the two segemented blades. Maybe they will do that as demonstrator
HAL already doing it with internal funds. But one ALH only AFAIK.

One is good enough for demonstration.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 02 Oct 2020 08:55

Saar, unfortunately, the ALH Dhruv is expensive.

It's price in 2008 was 5.7 Million USD or about ₹ 41 crore at the time. Might be about ₹ 120-140 crore today, after discounts, for International Customers, where there are no takers, due to high price , and perceived reliability issues / crashes in Latin American countries.

HAL was pleased to offer ALH in 2019 for the 111 Naval Utility Helicopter (NUH) tender at ₹ 195 crore each / 26 million USD.

The Bell 206 in similar role is available in today's price at about 2.5 Million USD.

I heard their indigenisation levels are low, which is a problem as they have built 250+, which was enough numbers to bring down costs.

Should have started a cost cutting program in 2008 itself, after running into Bell 206.

The twin engines only layout, composite materials and many rotor blades are also a factor for higher costs.

Bell 206 has singled engined variants too, use more metal (less expensive) , twin rotor blades are cheaper.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 02 Oct 2020 09:09

The latest 6 Dhruv order for IA is for Rs 270 Cr or Rs45 Cr/unit. $6m/unit.
It seem it is only basic Helicopters as replacement for crashed Helicopters.
With all support equipment it is Rs 75 Cr /unit as far I remember in the last orders for IA/IAF.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 02 Oct 2020 09:15

For 32 naval Dhruv order for IN /CG it is Rs 8000 Cr. Rs 250 Cr/unit but it includes Radar/ Sonars as well as PBL.

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 02 Oct 2020 10:03

dinesh_kimar wrote:Saar, unfortunately, the ALH Dhruv is expensive.

It's price in 2008 was 5.7 Million USD or about ₹ 41 crore at the time. Might be about ₹ 120-140 crore today, after discounts, for International Customers, where there are no takers, due to high price , and perceived reliability issues / crashes in Latin American countries.

HAL was pleased to offer ALH in 2019 for the 111 Naval Utility Helicopter (NUH) tender at ₹ 195 crore each / 26 million USD.

The Bell 206 in similar role is available in today's price at about 2.5 Million USD.

I heard their indigenisation levels are low, which is a problem as they have built 250+, which was enough numbers to bring down costs.

Should have started a cost cutting program in 2008 itself, after running into Bell 206.

The twin engines only layout, composite materials and many rotor blades are also a factor for higher costs.

Bell 206 has singled engined variants too, use more metal (less expensive) , twin rotor blades are cheaper.

I'm guessing that most of the cost would be for the French engine that is 100% imported.
Twin engine and composites would be because of the requirement to fly over extremely high altitudes in places like Siachen. Very little use outside of that.
Our inability to settle border issues has caused us to spend on such expensive things that other countries don't even bother working on. All the engine enhancement tech is the sole IP of French paid for by India.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 02 Oct 2020 10:22

while we are celebrating LCH LSP by HAL. bliss do remember its competition from the west.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jAEl1L3pMY

looks like they are also hard at work and have come up with a two seater trainer version.(this one is not bad)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecGQqmLuLKQ

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 02 Oct 2020 14:35

dinesh_kimar wrote:Saar, unfortunately, the ALH Dhruv is expensive.

It's price in 2008 was 5.7 Million USD or about ₹ 41 crore at the time. Might be about ₹ 120-140 crore today, after discounts, for International Customers, where there are no takers, due to high price , and perceived reliability issues / crashes in Latin American countries.

HAL was pleased to offer ALH in 2019 for the 111 Naval Utility Helicopter (NUH) tender at ₹ 195 crore each / 26 million USD.

The Bell 206 in similar role is available in today's price at about 2.5 Million USD.

I heard their indigenisation levels are low, which is a problem as they have built 250+, which was enough numbers to bring down costs.

Should have started a cost cutting program in 2008 itself, after running into Bell 206.

The twin engines only layout, composite materials and many rotor blades are also a factor for higher costs.

Bell 206 has singled engined variants too, use more metal (less expensive) , twin rotor blades are cheaper.

This comparison is misleading. They are of different class and the IAF/IA requirements wrt operating ceiling and payload capacity at those ceiling make a one to one comparison flawed.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Oct 2020 17:12

Vips wrote:HAL has allocated Rs 1800 Crores from its internal resources and has started work on 9 air frames in anticipation of the order for 15 LCH. They intend to hand over 9 LCH as soon as the order is formally placed(expected in December).

Commendable by HAL and a real shame that the Indian procurement system works like this. Also wondering when the IAF and IA will request AON for the LUH, especially given that it's a 3-4 year process through MoD's byzantine channels once AON is accorded. And then they cry hoarse about the lack of a Cheetah and Chetak replacement.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 02 Oct 2020 17:21

Within reasonable limits, necessary capital expenditure should be pushed through even when the yearly budget is exhausted and GOI's fiscal limits have to be stretched a bit. Especially for domestically produced equipment that has > 60% local content by value.

With the above understanding, orders for LCA, LCH & LUH should immediately be placed cutting through the red tape.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 02 Oct 2020 19:22

Cases where red-tape has been cut through (quite justifiably):

1) SIG-Sauer rifles
2) Rafale G2G deal

It should be far easier to do it with Indian PSU agencies, given that its the left hand talking to the right hand.

Just like "emergency procurement" & "no approval required from finance ministry" ordinances, the GOI can pass an ordinance to place direct orders without AON, CCS approval, RFP, RFQ ityadi

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 02 Oct 2020 19:34

Indranil wrote:
ramana wrote:tsarkar, The contract for ALH has to be modified to make those changes. But MoD can fund HAL to make two ALH with the two segemented blades. Maybe they will do that as demonstrator
HAL already doing it with internal funds. But one ALH only AFAIK.

Thanks Indranil and Ramana for this good news. The proactiveness is heartening! Contracts do have sufficient leeway to add enhancements that materialize during the timeframe of execution. IN+ICG have been looking for a folding rotor for ages.

The US Blackhawk and Seahawk families have the same body and , however, the chassis, powerplant are different including different variants of the T700 engine. Even the landing gears are different.

Given the naval helicopter market is different and growing, it makes sense for HAL to start a Naval division focusing on development of Naval Helicopters.

For IMRH, I hope they have parallel development segregating high altitude development for IAF/IA and naval requirements for IN/ICG

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 02 Oct 2020 20:01

Prem Kumar wrote:Cases where red-tape has been cut through (quite justifiably):

1) SIG-Sauer rifles
2) Rafale G2G deal

It should be far easier to do it with Indian PSU agencies, given that its the left hand talking to the right hand.

Just like "emergency procurement" & "no approval required from finance ministry" ordinances, the GOI can pass an ordinance to place direct orders without AON, CCS approval, RFP, RFQ ityadi

What seems to be happening and I hope there are at least handshake agreements in this regard, is that HAL is using their internal funding for a number of efforts (prototypes, infra creation and now even production) in the expectation of getting reimbursed once the services finally put pen to paper.

This is basically how private OEMs operate (barring production without firm commitments)

It’s a great compromise if it’s what’s happening as the services who are cash strapped save CAPEX until they are ready to commit and HAL is able to do their job and produce in the background so putting their capital to use

LCH, HTT-40 and now NUH/N-ALH MK.3 have been pursued via this route, I hope once AON is granted and army issues IOC HAL commences LSP production for the LUH like they have for LCH, a 2-4 year gap with no LUH production will be horrific

Now I just hope they start the same process for the IMRH, don’t wait for MoD funding and just get on with fabricating at least the prototypes. That is the next big project that is needed ASAP

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 08 Oct 2020 13:15

An interesting pic of IMRH wind tunnel test under the watchful eyes of Wg Cdr Unni Pillai (Retd), Executive Director (Flight Operations-Rotary Wing), HAL. The prog is slowly and steadily picking pace. And, that'd good news on #AFDay2020 .

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/13 ... 03/photo/1