Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Now even brahmos ER test is ignored, gone are the days 20 years ago when a Prithvi test once in few months was a celeberated event.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Hemant Kumar Rout
@TheHemantRout
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1h
@TheHemantRout
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1h
#BigBreaking: #India successfully flight tests extended range supersonic cruise missile #BrahMos with indigenous booster from a test facility off #Odisha coast. An Indo- Russian joint venture the #missile has a strike range of 450 km. #CruiseMissile @XpressOdisha
@NewIndianXpress
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
@Ramana Sir, my specific point for Nirbhay was because I had heard that the project had been closed as a Technology Demonstrator and the focus has shifted to the next gen Cruise Missile Project. On the rest I agree with you. Overall I am happy to see that we are taking even the platforms underdevelopment and putting them in the Ladakh theater. Just means that many a times we have a minimally viable product.ramana wrote:pushkar.bhat wrote:It takes a Chinese threat to get our forces to accept indigenous weapon platforms. First they choose to push back but once they realized that they need to fight with what they have they want SAAW, Nirbhay, ATAGS just to name a few. I hope the wisdom persists.
If you think about it it takes some time to make Nirbhay in quantity and definitely more than a few months.
So while its easy to make the underlined remarks, its erroneous as timeline does not support it.
Nirbhay Army version trials were completed and hence produced.
The other two services trials are not complete.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Of course, that 450 Km range figure depends upon the trajectory used, Hi-lo-hi etc.Ashokk wrote:Hemant Kumar Rout
@TheHemantRout
Two things need to be remembered. In the 2016 meeting between Modi & Putin it was agreed to extend the range to 600 Kms. In early 2017, the reports spoke of extending further to 800 Kms and a test within end of 2018.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
When it comes to unmanned equipment (eg: cruise missiles) the risk/cost of an imperfect product is low.
If the weapon hits its target within the CEP it is clearly a positive. If it does not you at least learn how it worked and where it failed; you can think of the use of these as testing in a production environment.
However the mere presence of these missiles, forces the opposing commanders to plan for them. In case it hits the fan, the enemy has more to target and defend itself from.
The assumption of course is that the basic functions are validated!
If the weapon hits its target within the CEP it is clearly a positive. If it does not you at least learn how it worked and where it failed; you can think of the use of these as testing in a production environment.
However the mere presence of these missiles, forces the opposing commanders to plan for them. In case it hits the fan, the enemy has more to target and defend itself from.
The assumption of course is that the basic functions are validated!
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1311218081058811904
FIRST ON LIVEFIST: Photos of today's BrahMos extended range (400 km) test on India's east coast.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Didn't realize that the 450Km range Brahmos-ER needed a new booster. (Or) was the booster Russian originally and we have indigenized it?Ashokk wrote:Hemant Kumar Rout
@TheHemantRout
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1h#BigBreaking: #India successfully flight tests extended range supersonic cruise missile #BrahMos with indigenous booster from a test facility off #Odisha coast. An Indo- Russian joint venture the #missile has a strike range of 450 km. #CruiseMissile @XpressOdisha
@NewIndianXpress
We had done 450KM tests 2 - 3 years ago at least. Hope this test is from a Production lot and not *development* tests
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
This black and white pattern is used for experimental launches, not production batches.
A news report in 2019 mentioned that Russia would develop a 800 km ranged Oniks. So this Brahmos can't be 800 km atleast. Started from 290, then 400, now claims of 500-600. I have no idea what to make of it.
BTW, can booster extend it's range in anyway?
A news report in 2019 mentioned that Russia would develop a 800 km ranged Oniks. So this Brahmos can't be 800 km atleast. Started from 290, then 400, now claims of 500-600. I have no idea what to make of it.
BTW, can booster extend it's range in anyway?
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
"New" booster is indigenous. Boosters typically dont increase range. Their job is to take the ramjet to a speed where it starts working. But their is the probability of a new propellant giving performance improvement. BrahMos from inception had range higher than 290 km that was limited by control software to fulfill MTCR compliance
As you can see the booster is built into the combustion chamber. Once the booster fuel is expended, sustainer fuel from tanks surrounding the combustion chamber is pumped into the combustion chamber for the ramjet to operate.
As you can see the booster is built into the combustion chamber. Once the booster fuel is expended, sustainer fuel from tanks surrounding the combustion chamber is pumped into the combustion chamber for the ramjet to operate.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Notam has been issued for a test of missile for 715 Kms, 25 Kms and 320 Kms.
Speculation is the tests could be for the new Agni-1P, QRSAM 1st user trial and for Pralay missile.
Let's wait for the official news and hope for lungy dance moments
Speculation is the tests could be for the new Agni-1P, QRSAM 1st user trial and for Pralay missile.
Let's wait for the official news and hope for lungy dance moments
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Back in 2017:
The same person in 2019 said that a 500km variant was ready at the time.My guess is 800km has just been tested as was planned.I wonder if this is a strap on type booster and can be pnp with existing inventory?
First nirbhay deployment and now this... Clear signal to china that chengdu and hotan are in sights.
So this test with booster for range of 450km sounds a little, err lessDr Sudhir Mishra, CEO and MD of BrahMos, said: “With the successful test-firing of extended range missile, BrahMos-ER, the Indian armed forces will be empowered to knock down enemy targets far beyond 400 kms.” The test was done from the Abdul Kalam island off Odisha coast around 11 am.
The missile range was extended from 290 km to 450 km following India's joining of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) in June 2016. The MTCR is an informal and voluntary partnership of countries to prevent proliferation of missile and unmanned aerial vehicle technology capable of carrying over 500 kg payload for more than 300 km.
The same person in 2019 said that a 500km variant was ready at the time.My guess is 800km has just been tested as was planned.I wonder if this is a strap on type booster and can be pnp with existing inventory?
First nirbhay deployment and now this... Clear signal to china that chengdu and hotan are in sights.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 30 Sep 2020 21:11, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Take Oniks article of 800 km range with a grain of saltjamwal wrote:This black and white pattern is used for experimental launches, not production batches.
A news report in 2019 mentioned that Russia would develop a 800 km ranged Oniks. So this Brahmos can't be 800 km atleast. Started from 290, then 400, now claims of 500-600. I have no idea what to make of it.
BTW, can booster extend it's range in anyway?
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Banshee should be sufficient for testing IR seeker missile. No idea about ulka. Going by wiki it appears to be target for RF missile.ramana wrote:The IAF has a IR target for testing IR seeker missiles.arvin wrote:
Towards the end, the person says it missed by a mile.
ulka?
Manpads crew generally train for incoming\exiting helicopter or aircraft. What was fired first in the video looks like a rocket.
Homing in on a rocket exhaust does not look a realistic training scenario specially this one with fast acceleration.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
In March 2017, the CEO of BrahMos indicated that the range of BrahMos would soon be extended from 290 Kms to 1000 Kms (by c. 2019).
DRDO Chief, Dr.S.Christopher said that in the immediate aftermath of India getting into MTCR, the range of BrahMos would extend from 290Kms to 450.
BrahMos-ER (Extended Range) was successfully test-fired on Mar 11, 2017.
Sudhir Mishra, MD & CEO of BrahMos Aerospace said, “The extended range BrahMos hit the target with centimetric accuracy. It’s a big leg up for us and it was a fantastic test flight. With this new version, all three forces, Army, Navy and IAF will have the capability to strike deep into the enemy’s territory.”
In April, 2019, Alexander Maksichev, the managing co-director of the BrahMos Aerospace company said, “We will come to hypersound via an increase in range. We have already confirmed 400 kilometers, in order to increase the range to 500, it is needed to increase the speed. Now the missile flies at speeds of 2.8 mach. We will achieve the speed of hypersound through modernization, it is more than 4.5 mach”
DRDO Chief, Dr.S.Christopher said that in the immediate aftermath of India getting into MTCR, the range of BrahMos would extend from 290Kms to 450.
BrahMos-ER (Extended Range) was successfully test-fired on Mar 11, 2017.
Sudhir Mishra, MD & CEO of BrahMos Aerospace said, “The extended range BrahMos hit the target with centimetric accuracy. It’s a big leg up for us and it was a fantastic test flight. With this new version, all three forces, Army, Navy and IAF will have the capability to strike deep into the enemy’s territory.”
In April, 2019, Alexander Maksichev, the managing co-director of the BrahMos Aerospace company said, “We will come to hypersound via an increase in range. We have already confirmed 400 kilometers, in order to increase the range to 500, it is needed to increase the speed. Now the missile flies at speeds of 2.8 mach. We will achieve the speed of hypersound through modernization, it is more than 4.5 mach”
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
There is another missile whose official {ref:wiki} range is 700-750 km.mody wrote:Notam has been issued for a test of missile for 715 Kms, 25 Kms and 320 Kms.
Speculation is the tests could be for the new Agni-1P, QRSAM 1st user trial and for Pralay missile.
Let's wait for the official news and hope for lungy dance moments
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Shaurya will be a nice addition. I like how it has basic launch steps same as Brahmos.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
It was mentioned by Brahmos CEO that to reduce import content, we indigenized booster. It was way back.Prem Kumar wrote:
Didn't realize that the 450Km range Brahmos-ER needed a new booster. (Or) was the booster Russian originally and we have indigenized it?
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Onyx max range is 580 km or around 600 km as per russian news magazine.
So this should be by default the range of Brahmos, if not for the MTCR restrictions.
Once we are party to MTCR, this is the default range of Brahmos.
So calling the 450/550 km range missile as Brahmos - ER is mere jugglery.
During pillai/kalam days...russia offered two new projects:
1. Known as Super Brahmos with 1000 km range &
2. Brahmos - mini with 300 km range ( which later became Brahmos - NG)
This proposal came after US - India Nuclear deal. As we know, part of the deal is to formalize India entry to groups like MTCR.
Post MTCR entry in 2016, Bhmos CEO in 2017 mentioned 800 km range Bhmos that can be done in 18 months.
In "18 months" means, it is not a new design /new missile but an upgrade.
But the problem in merely extending the range is the time it takes to reach the target. As the time increases, dispersion area of the target increases. So we need more speed than traditionally noted mach 2.8.
New speed expected is more than Mach 4. It has its challenges.
This year price negotiation for 800km Bhmos went on under Rajnath Singh RM. It was reported price was too steep. Recently i think we closed the deal.
It could be that, initial test will be to increase the speed before increasing the range.
So this should be by default the range of Brahmos, if not for the MTCR restrictions.
Once we are party to MTCR, this is the default range of Brahmos.
So calling the 450/550 km range missile as Brahmos - ER is mere jugglery.
During pillai/kalam days...russia offered two new projects:
1. Known as Super Brahmos with 1000 km range &
2. Brahmos - mini with 300 km range ( which later became Brahmos - NG)
This proposal came after US - India Nuclear deal. As we know, part of the deal is to formalize India entry to groups like MTCR.
Post MTCR entry in 2016, Bhmos CEO in 2017 mentioned 800 km range Bhmos that can be done in 18 months.
In "18 months" means, it is not a new design /new missile but an upgrade.
But the problem in merely extending the range is the time it takes to reach the target. As the time increases, dispersion area of the target increases. So we need more speed than traditionally noted mach 2.8.
New speed expected is more than Mach 4. It has its challenges.
This year price negotiation for 800km Bhmos went on under Rajnath Singh RM. It was reported price was too steep. Recently i think we closed the deal.
It could be that, initial test will be to increase the speed before increasing the range.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
A longer-ranged variant (without increase in speed) might have limitations against ships or other mobile targets (because the target has moved further away). But for static land targets, it can still be quite useful.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
^^
Good point. Very useful against high valued fixed targets on our land borders.
Good point. Very useful against high valued fixed targets on our land borders.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1311628415196303360
JUST IN: India’s @DRDO_India releases picture of Laser Guided Anti-Tank Guided Missile test today from an Arjun tank today (the second in 9 days) at the firing range in Ahmednagar, says it ‘defeated a target at longer range’.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/13 ... 3125532672
Video of the launch
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1311636682622476288
Video of the launch
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1311636682622476288
Video just in of the @DRDO_India Laser Guided ATGM being test-fired today from an Arjun tank’s main gun.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/13 ... 7029956609
Looks like there is going to be a Nirbhay test this month
#Areawarning #India issues a notification regarding "Launch of Experimental Flight Vehicle" in the #BayOfBengal area
Launch Window | 12-14 October 2020
Looks like there is going to be a Nirbhay test this month
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Looks like IA suddenly realized the value of having a 1000KM CM. Tells us how the threat from China was underestimated.
They planned to go "better" CM with longer range and indian engine, instead of inducting the current version. Now that the threat is open, there is a scramble.
They planned to go "better" CM with longer range and indian engine, instead of inducting the current version. Now that the threat is open, there is a scramble.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Best is the enemy of good.nam wrote:Looks like IA suddenly realized the value of having a 1000KM CM. Tells us how the threat from China was underestimated.
They planned to go "better" CM with longer range and indian engine, instead of inducting the current version. Now that the threat is open, there is a scramble.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Not sure if the IA asked for the advanced variation. Per Shiv Aroor (& only he reported this), IA was going to induct the current version, while the IN wanted an advanced version.nam wrote:Looks like IA suddenly realized the value of having a 1000KM CM. Tells us how the threat from China was underestimated.
They planned to go "better" CM with longer range and indian engine, instead of inducting the current version. Now that the threat is open, there is a scramble.
At any rate, we can be sure that no rapid-testing or induction would've happened if the enemy wasn't at the gates
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
So if we go for mass production of Nirbhay, who would be doing it and what could be the production rate per year, an estimate based on other missiles production rate.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
The missile was to be tested with the Manik engine since only limited engines were imported and then inducted. Then suddenly there was a media report of cancellation, even though DRDO chief confirming that Nirbhay was not cancelled in a seminar/webinar we are still sticking to media report on cancellation by a unnamed source. The MOD approval for a "Long Range Land Attack Missile" added fire to the speculation of Nirbhay cancellationPrem Kumar wrote:Not sure if the IA asked for the advanced variation. Per Shiv Aroor (& only he reported this), IA was going to induct the current version, while the IN wanted an advanced version.nam wrote:Looks like IA suddenly realized the value of having a 1000KM CM. Tells us how the threat from China was underestimated.
They planned to go "better" CM with longer range and indian engine, instead of inducting the current version. Now that the threat is open, there is a scramble.
At any rate, we can be sure that no rapid-testing or induction would've happened if the enemy wasn't at the gates
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
What is the production rate of tomahawk & kalibr missiles?asbchakri wrote:So if we go for mass production of Nirbhay, who would be doing it and what could be the production rate per year, an estimate based on other missiles production rate.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
1) The last test of Nirbhay was 1.5 years ago! And it was a development test, not a user testKakarat wrote: The missile was to be tested with the Manik engine since only limited engines were imported and then inducted. Then suddenly there was a media report of cancellation, even though DRDO chief confirming that Nirbhay was not cancelled in a seminar/webinar we are still sticking to media report on cancellation by a unnamed source. The MOD approval for a "Long Range Land Attack Missile" added fire to the speculation of Nirbhay cancellation
2) No one from DRDO or the Services came out and indicated that the program was still alive
So, its quite believable that the program was closed as a TD & work on next version began.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Sorry if you are asking me, I have no IdeaKakarat wrote:What is the production rate of tomahawk & kalibr missiles?asbchakri wrote:So if we go for mass production of Nirbhay, who would be doing it and what could be the production rate per year, an estimate based on other missiles production rate.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Nobody has, these things are kept secretasbchakri wrote:Sorry if you are asking me, I have no IdeaKakarat wrote:
What is the production rate of tomahawk & kalibr missiles?
Even if any of us knew Nirbhays production numbers or any other missile, we wont be discussing it online
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
make sense. Thank you.Kakarat wrote:Nobody has, these things are kept secretasbchakri wrote:
Sorry if you are asking me, I have no Idea
Even if any of us knew Nirbhays production numbers or any other missile, we wont be discussing it online
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
If you go by the freely available US budget DoD budget requests, they are planing to buy ~600 air and ship launched land attack cruise missiles this year (200 tomahawk + 400JASSAM).Kakarat wrote:What is the production rate of tomahawk & kalibr missiles?asbchakri wrote:So if we go for mass production of Nirbhay, who would be doing it and what could be the production rate per year, an estimate based on other missiles production rate.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
These articles have the latest news on LRLACM. Apparently its being developed like a Klub S with supersonic terminal stage.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... ssile.html
Having said that a subsonic cruise missile with either Russian or Indian engine will still be quite useful.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... ssile.html
https://drdo.gov.in/sites/default/files ... y_2020.pdfWith the BrahMos cruise missile, now operational with all three armed forces, taking care supersonic duties — including an active range expansion exercise that will put it out to 900 km or more — the LRLACM will be developed as a clear Nirbhay derivative, but with additional propulsion elements. As Livefist has reported here, the LRLACM could involve a three-stage power system: the Nirbhay booster to put the missile in the air, the NPO Saturn 36MT/Manik turbofan to power the cruise missile through its 1,000-km cruise phase and, finally, a ramjet engine that will push the weapon into supersonic endgame towards its target.
Note: the last document is NOT a DRDO statement but a collation of news article.LRLACM will fly most of its flight at subsonic speeds but it will perform a supersonic sprint in the terminal approach to the target which considerably will reduce the reaction time for the target’s defense systems to react.
Having said that a subsonic cruise missile with either Russian or Indian engine will still be quite useful.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Will be interesting with this kind of a flight profie
But Nirbhay, as it was originally envisaged has its own benefits. The ability to loiter around a target area, beam back images and pick a target to hit has elements of a CM + UAV/loitering-munition. Can't do it if the terminal stage is supersonic.
So, it'll make sense to have both variants
But Nirbhay, as it was originally envisaged has its own benefits. The ability to loiter around a target area, beam back images and pick a target to hit has elements of a CM + UAV/loitering-munition. Can't do it if the terminal stage is supersonic.
So, it'll make sense to have both variants
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
The MTCR treaty actually died after the United States and China began supplying extended range systems to their allies. Back in 2005, I wrote here that the range of the BRAHMOS does not reflect the real capabilities of this missile. We must proceed from the weight and energy capabilities of Onix. An increase in speed in this case means an increase in the range, since the engine is designed for approximately the same operating time in flight. Now, guys, get ready to increase the Club's range to 2500 km, while maintaining the ability to launch from the standard VLS of Talwar frigates.Kanson wrote:Onyx max range is 580 km or around 600 km as per russian news magazine.
So this should be by default the range of Brahmos, if not for the MTCR restrictions.
Once we are party to MTCR, this is the default range of Brahmos. It could be that, initial test will be to increase the speed before increasing the range.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Igorr, love to see you back.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Agreed.Indranil wrote:Igorr, love to see you back.
Igorr, it's at least 15 years since I last saw you on this forum. Welcome back. All we need now is for Avraam to show up here again.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
This description is difficult to follow. So the missile is cruising at subsonic speed with a non afterburning turbofan. How will it accelerate to supersonic speeds where the ramjet can start operating? Also how complex and expensive is this missile with 3-4 engines.tsarkar wrote:These articles have the latest news on LRLACM. Apparently its being developed like a Klub S with supersonic terminal stage.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... ssile.html
With the BrahMos cruise missile, now operational with all three armed forces, taking care supersonic duties — including an active range expansion exercise that will put it out to 900 km or more — the LRLACM will be developed as a clear Nirbhay derivative, but with additional propulsion elements. As Livefist has reported here, the LRLACM could involve a three-stage power system: the Nirbhay booster to put the missile in the air, the NPO Saturn 36MT/Manik turbofan to power the cruise missile through its 1,000-km cruise phase and, finally, a ramjet engine that will push the weapon into supersonic endgame towards its target.
But the most probable case is that people are confusing two LR cruise missile projects:
1. A subsonic one which is based on the optimization of Nirbhay. I have seen tenders for this. It has been optimized to 1000 kgs of airframe weight, 505 mm diameter and 5600 mm in length. The nose is more pointed signalling higher cruise speed (or terminal velocity). Payload is the same. The equipment bay and fuel tank is much smaller. The engine and intake section has seen refinement not much different. After a long cruise and an empty tanks, the terminal velocity may be supersonic (in a dive).
2. A parallel to Brahmos, but fully desi and modern. Perhaps an analog to the upcoming ASN4NG/ASLP programs from France and UK. Our system is based on STAR. STAR stands for Supersonic TARget. This is the first implementation of the Liquid Fuel Ramjet (LFRJ) engine. Initially, this will be surface launched (with a booster) and will serve as a supersonic target for A2A and S2A missiles. Capable of 2.4M. I have seen a bunch of tenders on this project lately including for assembly stands to carriers. If my estimates are right then, STAR weighs around 600-700 kgs (without the booster). It is easy to visualize an airlaunched version. The stated goals of the ASN4NG is a range of 1000 kms. It can be expected that the Indian system will also attain something similar.