Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

[Philip]

There shouldn't be a problem with a Nirbhay variant that has a Mach 3 terminal warhead a la Klub. That variant would be ideal for the IN. Not required for the IA unless defeating latest enemy SAMs,air defences etc., require a faster terminal warhead too.The range too could be hugely increased as is happening to the already long- legged Kalibir,from 2000 km to 4000.

[Yagnasri]

Any 1000+ Km range CM + good survaielnce systems will end up posing serious threat n Bay of Bengal, Large of parts of busy IOR regios to any serface ships.

[SSridhar]

These articles have the latest news on LRLACM. Apparently its being developed like a Klub S with supersonic terminal stage.

There have been conflicting news items on such a missile.

In August 2014, Avinash Chander said DRDO was designing a long-range anti-ship missile that would be ready in six years’ time (i.e by c. 2020). This long range missile would be a ballistic missile with a seeker. This would be along the lines of the Chinese DF-21D. This would stop a carrier battle group (CBG) from coming closer than 1500-2000 Kms of Indian shores. GoI was said to have sanctioned this 2000-Km range anti-ship ballistic missile in c. 2015. In c. 2017, the missile was said to be close to its first developmental flight. No further news after that.

[SSridhar]

India set to launch hypersonic nuclear-capable Shaurya missile on Saturday - Hemant Kumar Rout, New Indian Express

In the midst of escalating border tension, India is preparing to conduct the first user specific trial {Shaurya's first successful flight was way back in 2004. The first user trial had already been conducted in 2011 !!} of the indigenously built hypersonic nuclear-capable missile Shaurya from a defence facility off Odisha coast on Saturday.

Developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the canister-launched missile with a dummy payload will be test fired from a land-based platform in full operational configuration marking the first test of the user series.

The missile, a land variant of Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM) K-15, had completed its developmental trials in 2011.

The missile that forms the crucial third leg of India’s nuclear deterrent is less vulnerable to anti ballistic missile defence systems due to its high maneuverability.

“Preparation has reached final stage and the missile is ready for the crucial launch. The countdown has begun after the completion of range integration. If weather favours, the missile will be flight tested as per the schedule,” a senior defence official told TNIE.

The test assumes significance as it is one of the China specific missiles developed by the country. Though India has adopted ‘no-first-use’ policy, if launched from a submarine off the China coast, the missile can cover many of its major cities.

Shaurya can be stored in a composite canister, which makes it easy to handle and transport like the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.

The missile is so agile that radars across the borders will have less than 400 seconds to detect, track and intercept before it hits the target.

The missile has a unique feature of operation and maintenance. Like a ballistic missile, it is powered by solid fuel, but it can guide itself up to the target like a cruise missile.

Its two-stage rocket accelerates the missile to six times the speed of sound before it reaches an altitude of 40 km, after which it cruises towards the target, a defence scientist associated with the project said.

The sleek and complex missile having a strike range of about 750 km can carry warheads with a payload up to one tonne.

The 10-metre-long weapon system having width of about half-a-metre uses solid propellant which gives it a longer service-life and shorter launch time.

“Shaurya has an element of surprise as it can be kept in locations camouflaged in underground silos from enemy surveillance and the enemies would not be able to detect till it is fired. It cannot be detected by satellite imaging, which makes the system war ready and lethal. The missile can be fired from both land and underwater submarines,” the scientist added.

[csharma]

Why Shaurya was not inducted till now? Did the armed forces not feel a need for this. Did they not think of a situation along LAC?

[vera_k]

It's a containerized missile. They had to manufacture the nukes as well, and there was a reported shortfall of N-material.

[pankajs]

We don't know that Shaurya has NOT been manufactured just as we don't know anything about the production facilities and numbers for the Agni series. Afterall, its primary role was strategic (nuclear) under the Sagarika project/program.

All we know is that Shaurya was cleared for production long back and may have already been produced in some quantity obviously not on the scale of Brahmos or other non-strategic missiles.

Talk of Shaurya deployment is most likely with conventional warhead to counter the Chinese conventional rocket force. Therefore, Nuke warheads were never a constraint to deployment of a "conventionally" armed Shaurya. Nuclear warhead deployment has never been and will never be discussed in public. The mental block was at our politico/babu/forces level. Simple as that.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7675&start=3160#p2462974

Shaurya or more precisely Sagarika (K-15) has been productionized per reports where as Nirbhay was in full TD mode only. To me Shaurya seems a more likely candidate to be deployed at the LAC.

The other possibility is P-800 "Oniks-M" clone may be revealed.

Lastly DDMitis cannot be ruled out.

Looks like all 3 statements have come true at the same time. Did not expect that.

[csharma]

I don’t think the land version will have nukes. Will most likely have conventional warhead. But maybe they were manufacturing K 15s

[pankajs]

Shaurya, the land version of Sagarika, is a good replacement for Agni-1. Don't rule out the possibility of nuke tipped Shaurya yet.

GOI talk of deployment only applied to conventionally tipped missile. Nuke tipped missile deployment is never discussed in public.

[Ashokk]

Hemant Kumar Rout
@TheHemantRout

17m
#BigBreaking. #India test fires surface-to-surface nuke capable hypersonic #missile Shaurya, land version of SLBM K-15 (B-05), from a defence facility off #Odisha coast. Flying at a speed of Mach 7.5, it can destroy targets 750 km away. @XpressOdisha
@NewIndianXpress

[Igorr]

Igorr, love to see you back.

Igorr, it's at least 15 years since I last saw you on this forum. Welcome back. All we need now is for Avraam to show up here again.

A friend is known in that he appears at the right moment, sir.
I was lucky to get medical treatment in India just before the epidemic. Impressed by the pace of its development.
On the main question: while maintaining the weight category, the only way to increase the range of the BRAHMOS is to increase the temperature cycle of fuel combustion. And this automatically means an increase in temperature, pressure and, accordingly, speed. In subsonic case the way is different: grow in effectiveness of a turbo-engine is limited. The new VLS at Talwars accept a thicker BRAHMOS, which means they should be suitable in physical size for an elongated Club. Personally, it doesn't matter to me what this missile will be called, Club, NibhaiMos or something else) The main thing is that India will receive strategic-range cruise missiles and will not be so dependent on the United States. The next step, I think, is the adaptation of this strategic-range cruise missile to the Tu-142 and Poseidon (the latter, if the Americans allow), which will make it possible to talk about the formation of a full-fledged strategic triad in India.

There shouldn't be a problem with a Nirbhay variant that has a Mach 3 terminal warhead a la Klub. That variant would be ideal for the IN. Not required for the IA unless defeating latest enemy SAMs,air defences etc., require a faster terminal warhead too.The range too could be hugely increased as is happening to the already long- legged Kalibir,from 2000 km to 4000.

Philip, the greatest convenience of the Club/Caliber system is that, within the same physical size, it is possible to create missiles for most of the main sea targets: surface, underwater (missile-torpedoes), ground, not excluding air ones in the future. Also, it can be conventional or nuclear equipment. Of course, the operating ranges will be significantly different: 4000 km is the maximum for the nuclear version with a 150 kg warhead, for the rest it can be significantly lower.

[Kakarat]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1312298712383680512

The @DRDO_India has just conducted a test of the 700-1800 km range SHAURYA cannisterized nuclear-capable surface-to-surface missile from the east coast. (Photo from an earlier test)

[rsingh]

What are specifics of a carrier destroyer? Do we have some missile that can be characterised as such (with or without some modification)?

[Igorr]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1312298712383680512

The @DRDO_India has just conducted a test of the 700-1800 km range SHAURYA cannisterized nuclear-capable surface-to-surface missile from the east coast. (Photo from an earlier test)

So, if believe to the photo, SHAURYA is an air-breathing rocket about the size of BRAHMOS. If so, then we now know how far the BRAHMOS missile can fly if remove the treaty obligations and reduce the weight of the warhead to an acceptable tactical nuclear charge (approximately the weight of a 155 mm projectile).

[Kakarat]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1312298712383680512

So, if believe to the photo, SHAURYA is an air-breathing rocket about the size of BRAHMOS. If so, then we now know how far the BRAHMOS missile can fly if remove the treaty obligations and reduce the weight of the warhead to an acceptable tactical nuclear charge (approximately the weight of a 155 mm projectile).

No Shaurya is a conventional Solid fueled rocket so no comparison with BRAHMOS

[SSridhar]

India successfully test-fires new version of nuclear-capable Shaurya Missile - ANI

In a major success amid the ongoing order crisis with China, India on Saturday successfully test-fired a new version of nuclear-capable Shaurya missile off the coast of Odisha which can strike targets at around 800 kms.

The new version of the missile was testfired successfully and would be inducted in the strategic forces to complement one of the existing missiles in the same class, top government sources told ANI.

The missile would be lighter and easier to operate in comparison with the existing missile, the sources added.

In the last phase while moving close to its target, the missile moves at hypersonic speeds, the sources said further.

[pankajs]

Not surprising on the "New" tag ... Sagarika was tested as late as 2018 and would have changes over the last version of Shaurya that was know to have been tested.

In the strategic force, Shaurya will most likely replace Agni-1. It is easier to operate when compared to the older and bulkier tech that is Agni-1.

However, Agni-1 does have higher payload capacity that would be useful at the maximum range. As is the case in India in most such cases, I expect the current Agni-1's to be in service while additions to the class will likely mostly be nuke tipped Shauryas. I expect the road-mobile systems to mostly switch to Shaurya while the Agni-1 to be static deployed.

Good news all around! Chinese have forced GOI to relook at the force structure and fast track induction of proven systems including neglected ones.

[Prem Kumar]

We badly need conventionally armed BMs, CMs and BGRVs available to the IA to strike back. Keeping Shaurya & Prithvi solely under the SFC doesn't make any sense. Hope the ANI report is wrong.

[Prem Kumar]

I am not sure whether to lungi-dance or grind my teeth. On the one hand, we see our dreams come true - proven desi weapons getting through a rapid testing/induction cycle. OTOH, it points to a systemic failure of imagination & planning that such systems aren't already in service.

1) Dev trials completed in 2011
2) K-15 inducted with subsequent variants like BO5 tested
3) Proven, world-class missile: highly accurate and nearly impossible to defeat
4) Excellent payload and range. Per Arun_S, in a purely ballistic path, the Shaurya can even go upto 1500+ Kms with a 1 tonne payload

Yet, in 9 years, not a single conventional missile has been inducted or regiment raised. Makes you wonder WTF were people thinking: an across-the-board failure of political, bureaucratic and armed forces leadership.

[kit]

Ok just to get this right, Shaurya is a hybrid hypersonic weapon, a rocket that behaves like a cruise missile in its trajectory?.. just so in layman terms? ., so it means India just broke cover on a "new" weapon that could potentially threaten major Chinese deployments. Also for the layman to understand.

[kit]

I am not sure whether to lungi-dance or grind my teeth. On the one hand, we see our dreams come true - proven desi weapons getting through a rapid testing/induction cycle. OTOH, it points to a systemic failure of imagination & planning that such systems aren't already in service.

1) Dev trials completed in 2011
2) K-15 inducted with subsequent variants like BO5 tested
3) Proven, world-class missile: highly accurate and nearly impossible to defeat
4) Excellent payload and range. Per Arun_S, in a purely ballistic path, the Shaurya can even go upto 1500+ Kms with a 1 tonne payload

Yet, in 9 years, not a single conventional missile has been inducted or regiment raised. Makes you wonder WTF were people thinking: an across-the-board failure of political, bureaucratic and armed forces leadership.

You don't need to., matter of fact there are now a lot of stuff outside the public domain. Better that way.In GOI we trust

[mody]

However, Agni-1 does have higher payload capacity that would be useful at the maximum range. As is the case in India in most such cases, I expect the current Agni-1's to be in service while additions to the class will likely mostly be nuke tipped Shauryas. I expect the road-mobile systems to mostly switch to Shaurya while the Agni-1 to be static deployed.

Good news all around! Chinese have forced GOI to relook at the force structure and fast track induction of proven systems including neglected ones.

Both Shaurya and Agni-I are supposed to have maximum payload of 1 ton and a range of 750 kms, with a 1 ton payload.
Most likely the NEW tag means its optimized for the land based role, as compared to the Sagarika or K-15. When shaurya was first tested, it was reported that it is not optimized for the land role, as the K-15 being underwater launched, is subject to higher pressure and a solely land based missile can be further optimized. I guess the new Shaurya may also be the Agni-IP that was being talked about. Going forward only Shaurya may be produced. Agni-I production will cease (if it has not already). In fact, I feel that production of Agni-II and Agni-III has also probably stopped by now. Only the Agni-IV, Agni-V and K-series missiles will be produced for the strategic role.

[kit]

Ok just to get this right, Shaurya is a hybrid hypersonic weapon, a rocket that behaves like a cruise missile in its trajectory?.. just so in layman terms? ., so it means India just broke cover on a "new" weapon that could potentially threaten major Chinese deployments. Also for the layman to understand.

Also that Shaurya is most likely Brahmos XX in terms of flowers delivered !!

[mody]

I am not sure whether to lungi-dance or grind my teeth. On the one hand, we see our dreams come true - proven desi weapons getting through a rapid testing/induction cycle. OTOH, it points to a systemic failure of imagination & planning that such systems aren't already in service.

1) Dev trials completed in 2011
2) K-15 inducted with subsequent variants like BO5 tested
3) Proven, world-class missile: highly accurate and nearly impossible to defeat
4) Excellent payload and range. Per Arun_S, in a purely ballistic path, the Shaurya can even go upto 1500+ Kms with a 1 tonne payload

Yet, in 9 years, not a single conventional missile has been inducted or regiment raised. Makes you wonder WTF were people thinking: an across-the-board failure of political, bureaucratic and armed forces leadership.

Maybe GOI and the military did not see an imminent role for medium range BM missiles with a conventional payload. Even now, the Shaurya with 1 ton payload and 750 Kms range is not an ideal weapon to use for delivering a conventional warhead. But given that China has deployed a large number of DF-21 and DF-26 missiles, possibly with a conventional payload, it makes sense to counter the same.
However, I suppose the primary role of the Shaurya will still be as a strategic missile. With a smaller nuclear payload, the missile would have a range close to 1,500 Kms. Enough to cover all of Pak. Canisterized, highly road mobile, smaller, lighter, probably more accurate, with a faster acceleration (maybe with with a better propellant, NEPE based?), much more difficult to intercept and possibly cheaper than Agni-I.

[pankajs]

However, Agni-1 does have higher payload capacity that would be useful at the maximum range. As is the case in India in most such cases, I expect the current Agni-1's to be in service while additions to the class will likely mostly be nuke tipped Shauryas. I expect the road-mobile systems to mostly switch to Shaurya while the Agni-1 to be static deployed.

Good news all around! Chinese have forced GOI to relook at the force structure and fast track induction of proven systems including neglected ones.

Both Shaurya and Agni-I are supposed to have maximum payload of 1 ton and a range of 750 kms, with a 1 ton payload.
Most likely the NEW tag means its optimized for the land based role, as compared to the Sagarika or K-15. When shaurya was first tested, it was reported that it is not optimized for the land role, as the K-15 being underwater launched, is subject to higher pressure and a solely land based missile can be further optimized. I guess the new Shaurya may also be the Agni-IP that was being talked about. Going forward only Shaurya may be produced. Agni-I production will cease (if it has not already). In fact, I feel that production of Agni-II and Agni-III has also probably stopped by now. Only the Agni-IV, Agni-V and K-series missiles will be produced for the strategic role.

1. Per wiki, Agni-1 can carry 2.5 ton for 700 km vs 1 ton for Shaurya.

2. The Shaurya was in the cold storage till a few weeks back. The chance for "optimized for the land based role" is close to zero in this short duration. The missile overall had been canistarized and tested for land role way back. The only thing that then makes sense is that the latest Sagarika version has been dropped into the canister and tested without any change provided the dimensions and weights haven't changed much to call for redesign of the ejection system.

3. As I have stated before, I too think going forward only Shaurya will be inducted in the class while the Agni-1 currently in service will be retained for their full useful life.

[abhik]

Er... Why is every one calling this Shaurya missile? Is this not the Pralay missile (sure its derived from the Shaurya) - details of which have been posed by IR, KM saars and others since quite some time now?

viewtopic.php?p=2410630&sid=d38ea3f51f4 ... 9#p2410630
viewtopic.php?p=2410362#p2410362

BTW did they release any photos/videos?

[chetak]

---Deleted by mod--

[sudeepj]

I am not sure whether to lungi-dance or grind my teeth. On the one hand, we see our dreams come true - proven desi weapons getting through a rapid testing/induction cycle. OTOH, it points to a systemic failure of imagination & planning that such systems aren't already in service.

1) Dev trials completed in 2011
2) K-15 inducted with subsequent variants like BO5 tested
3) Proven, world-class missile: highly accurate and nearly impossible to defeat
4) Excellent payload and range. Per Arun_S, in a purely ballistic path, the Shaurya can even go upto 1500+ Kms with a 1 tonne payload

Yet, in 9 years, not a single conventional missile has been inducted or regiment raised. Makes you wonder WTF were people thinking: an across-the-board failure of political, bureaucratic and armed forces leadership.

Even if Shourya was not inducted, about which there is a question mark, there could be good reason why. Why spend the money if plain-old Agnis will do the job? The range means its a Pakistan specific missile when based on land. Its trump card is non-ballistic, low altitude (40km) trajectory. Its very useful against a country that has an ABM program, an overkill against one that doesnt. And that is the reason why the naval version of this missile is stationed on our SLBMs, but land based may not have too many use cases.

[Vips]

Is there any news or updates about the Prahaar missile?

[kit]

I am not sure whether to lungi-dance or grind my teeth. On the one hand, we see our dreams come true - proven desi weapons getting through a rapid testing/induction cycle. OTOH, it points to a systemic failure of imagination & planning that such systems aren't already in service.

1) Dev trials completed in 2011
2) K-15 inducted with subsequent variants like BO5 tested
3) Proven, world-class missile: highly accurate and nearly impossible to defeat
4) Excellent payload and range. Per Arun_S, in a purely ballistic path, the Shaurya can even go upto 1500+ Kms with a 1 tonne payload

Yet, in 9 years, not a single conventional missile has been inducted or regiment raised. Makes you wonder WTF were people thinking: an across-the-board failure of political, bureaucratic and armed forces leadership.

Even if Shourya was not inducted, about which there is a question mark, there could be good reason why. Why spend the money if plain-old Agnis will do the job? The range means its a Pakistan specific missile when based on land. Its trump card is non-ballistic, low altitude (40km) trajectory. Its very useful against a country that has an ABM program, an overkill against one that doesnt. And that is the reason why the naval version of this missile is stationed on our SLBMs, but land based may not have too many use cases.

new reports of the chinis parking their S300 Clones in paki land

[Cain Marko]

Ok just to get this right, Shaurya is a hybrid hypersonic weapon, a rocket that behaves like a cruise missile in its trajectory?.. just so in layman terms? ., so it means India just broke cover on a "new" weapon that could potentially threaten major Chinese deployments. Also for the layman to understand.

Also that Shaurya is most likely Brahmos XX in terms of flowers delivered !!

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1312298712383680512

So, if believe to the photo, SHAURYA is an air-breathing rocket about the size of BRAHMOS. If so, then we now know how far the BRAHMOS missile can fly if remove the treaty obligations and reduce the weight of the warhead to an acceptable tactical nuclear charge (approximately the weight of a 155 mm projectile).

Comparisons with brahmos are not correct IMHO. Better comparison would be with iskander iirc

Unlike brahmos, Shaurya is quasi ballistic, much heavier, and does not have any low level skimming capability.

[Indranil]

Er... Why is every one calling this Shaurya missile? Is this not the Pralay missile (sure its derived from the Shaurya) - details of which have been posed by IR, KM saars and others since quite some time now?

viewtopic.php?p=2410630&sid=d38ea3f51f4 ... 9#p2410630
viewtopic.php?p=2410362#p2410362

BTW did they release any photos/videos?

If it is 2 stages, then it is Shaurya. If it is a single stage, then it is Pralay.

But they havn't released a picture or video, so who knows what was actually fired.

[Prem Kumar]

Even if Shourya was not inducted, about which there is a question mark, there could be good reason why. Why spend the money if plain-old Agnis will do the job? The range means its a Pakistan specific missile when based on land. Its trump card is non-ballistic, low altitude (40km) trajectory. Its very useful against a country that has an ABM program, an overkill against one that doesnt. And that is the reason why the naval version of this missile is stationed on our SLBMs, but land based may not have too many use cases.

1) The BM threat that China poses against our airbases etc was well known and wargamed for a decade now. Not having conventional counter-punch ability is a clear miss on the part of our planning. Especially when proven missiles were available for this purpose

2) Agni has a well defined strategic role. So, Shaurya could have been earmarked for a conventional role, with a nuclear option if needed

3) The underlined part above is what I am trying to emphasize as well. Even though we've been talking the big talk about 2.5 front war, we haven't, till recently, thought beyond Pakistan. That's the fundamental problem.

[Nilanjan]

I have a confirmed news...RudraM-2 is a anti-radar missile (range-330km max)

[basant]

Why is there a capital M at the end? It always looked odd to me and for a brief period I thought was Rudra M-x missile.

[Kanson]

This black and white pattern is used for experimental launches, not production batches.
A news report in 2019 mentioned that Russia would develop a 800 km ranged Oniks. So this Brahmos can't be 800 km atleast. Started from 290, then 400, now claims of 500-600. I have no idea what to make of it.
BTW, can booster extend it's range in anyway?

Perhaps it doesnt need any explanation after all the deliberation. But here it is:
290/300 km - Export variant whose range is reduced to be MTCR complaint.
400+ km (upto 450 km) - unlocked / full range in Hi-Hi-Lo mode.
500+ km (upto 550/580 km) - max range.
When they say 500 km or more than 500 km, it means the missile was tested to its full range.

[Kanson]

A longer-ranged variant (without increase in speed) might have limitations against ships or other mobile targets (because the target has moved further away). But for static land targets, it can still be quite useful.

Even against static land targets, higher speed offers that much less reaction time available for any Air Defence units.

It is the choice for the military planners to take.

[Kanson]

Looks like IA suddenly realized the value of having a 1000KM CM. Tells us how the threat from China was underestimated.

They planned to go "better" CM with longer range and indian engine, instead of inducting the current version. Now that the threat is open, there is a scramble.

It is neither sudden or only long range. They (all three) wanted all kind of CM, lighter, heavier, medium/short/long range, hi/low speed, different tech etc. All kinds.

It is happening one after another. If you see it from outside it may look like picking up all kind of lollipops one by one.

[Kanson]

Onyx max range is 580 km or around 600 km as per russian news magazine.
So this should be by default the range of Brahmos, if not for the MTCR restrictions.
Once we are party to MTCR, this is the default range of Brahmos. It could be that, initial test will be to increase the speed before increasing the range.

The MTCR treaty actually died after the United States and China began supplying extended range systems to their allies. Back in 2005, I wrote here that the range of the BRAHMOS does not reflect the real capabilities of this missile. We must proceed from the weight and energy capabilities of Onix. An increase in speed in this case means an increase in the range, since the engine is designed for approximately the same operating time in flight. Now, guys, get ready to increase the Club's range to 2500 km, while maintaining the ability to launch from the standard VLS of Talwar frigates.

Hi Igorr, happy to see you. You know, we are not party to any such groupings. We are not allies. Neither we want to be a poodle, to enjoy the benefits bypassing MTCR restriction.

So we wainted to be formally recognized before enhancing the missile range.

As the tech matuers, you will be see much more improvements within the same volume. Perhaps without exceeding the weight.

[nash]

https://twitter.com/TheHemantRout/statu ... 9887991808

#BigBreaking @DRDO_India
successfully flight tests Supersonic #Missile Assisted Release of Torpedo (#SMART) from a defence facility off #Odisha coast. This is a major technology breakthrough for stand-off capability in anti-submarine warfare. @XpressOdisha
@NewIndianXpress

https://twitter.com/TheHemantRout/statu ... 0611816448

SMART is a #missile assisted release of lightweight anti submarine #Torpedo system for Anti Submarine Warfare (ASW) operations far beyond Torpedo range. This launch demonstrates significant achievement in establishing anti #submarine warfare capabilities. @NewIndianXpress

As per Livefist, range can be 650km:

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1313026393215627265

JUST IN: @DRDO_India
has successfully flight-tested its Supersonic Missile assisted release of Torpedo (SMART), a hybrid weapon that provides for a long-range (up to 650 km) anti-submarine capability. Statement: