Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

[JTull]

So gentlemen, you will lose credibility in any serious discussion if you say Shenya, S Hyena are torpedoes and NAGIN is a towed array sonar.

Just like you will become a laughing stock if you say Bangalore is the capital of Kerala.

And, if you think you now know the password, there could be other tripwires in this post

[titash]

Here's a rundown on Indian Light Weight Torpedo development history...

tsarkarji - excellent posts; dispels quite a bit of junk on the internet.

It would appear that the TAL is more or less a reverse engineered A244-S torpedo and gave DRDO some experience in torpedo development. I always wondered why BDL didn't order more than 25 pieces. But the good news is some pieces were exported to Burma and the definitive ALWT is in development. So the SMART payload should ideally cater to ALWT when both enter service over the next 5 years.

if NAGAN was a tech demonstrator, the definitive TAS should be the ALTAS which I thought was undergoing some sort of trials. Hopefully all these mature in relatively quick time

With ASROC style SMART + Varunastra HWT + ALWT LWT weapons, and an effective HMS/TAS combo in HUMSA-NG/ALTAS...looks like we are very well covered for ASW. Need to get these sensors & weapons to sea in numbers

[nachiket]

Tsarkar, thanks for those posts and clearing up the confusion. I am guessing the 33kn max speed probably applies to the A244S and the TAL. Wiki entry for A244S mentions the speed between 30 and 39kn. I hope the new ALWT with pump jet propulsion will be designed for a higher speed over 40kn.

[pankajs]

Consider the following images ..

Image 1 - Shaurya in a resting position.

Note:
1. Study the Shaurya TEL very carefully. The wheel sets, the shape of the back that supports the launcher\missile, column to support the launcher\missile at rest, the spare tyre and the cabin position on the wheel.
2. The portion of the missile nose that pokes out of the launcher. We will compare this with portion of SMART nose that pokes out of its launcher just before is launched.
3. Also note that Launcher length. If the launcher were fully horizontal, it would fall short of the back of the driver cabin. We will compare this with the SMART launcher to get an idea of the SMART launcher's relative size.

Image 2 - Screen grab of the SMART TEL just before the missile was launched.

ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2l-1D9eR3Y
Note:
1. Study the SMART TEL very carefully in this image and the original video when the controls at the bottom are not visible. Looks very similar to the Shaurya TEL. Similar wheel sets with a similar back supporting the launcher\missile, similar column to support the launcher\missile at rest, similar position of the spare tyre and cabin position.
2. Here too one can observe the SMART missile nose poking out of the launcher. This is while the countdown is on and before the missile is launched i.e. at rest.

By the looks of it, the SMART TEL looks very similar to the Shaurya TEL, the Launcher looks to be of similar length and the missile also looks to be of similar length. In both case the missile is longer than the launcher and pokes out about the same length.

Image 3 - SMART as it clears the launcher

Note:
1. Study the SMART TEL very carefully and compare it to the image 1 (Shaurya TEL). The SMART TEL looks similar to the Shaurya TEL. Similar wheel sets, etc.
2. The SMART launcher looks to be of a similar length as the Shaurya Launcher (Image 1).

Lastly, we come to the missile dimensions. The fitment of the SMART missile to its launcher (Image 2) looks similar to Shaurya missile to its launcher (Image 1). In both cases, they are long enough for the nose to be poking out of the launcher @ rest and wide enough to fit the launcher nicely.

Also, I did a rough L/D of the SMART missile in image 3 and it came to be about 13. Compare that to the L/D ratio of Shaurya missiles going by its wiki dimensions where the length = 10 m and the diameter = 0.74m. The L/D of Shaurya is = 10/0.74 ~ 13.5 quite close to the SMART's "approx" L/D of the missile in flight.

Therefore we can make the following observations bases on pictorial analysis ...
1. TEL of Shaurya and SMART appear to be similar.
2. Launcher dimensions appear to be similar.
3. Missile external dimensions, both in length and diameter, appear to be similar.

What we can't guess from pictorial analysis ...
1. How the missile is packed "inside" in terms of fuel and its special payload even if the external dimensions are similar.
2. How far the missile will deliver its cargo given that it is a special payload and that there are very real constraints for the payload under considerations.

What we know ...
1. Per wiki, Shaurya can deliver a payload of 1000 kg to between 700-750 km

Pictorial analysis can only take us so far and there is NO substitute to real data. The final picture will only be clear when the official figures are released.

[sudeepj]

The naysaying about SMART is absurd. When you have a complete sensor-shooter chain over 600kms, why would it be so hard for a missile to avoid own assets in the area? Yes, civilian assets are sometimes shot down in war. That is just the way it is.

About the number of sonabuoys and the lack of dunking sonar, yes, but they do have a surface radar to catch anyone snorkeling and a capability is being planned for them to carry tens of sonobuoys. So I dont see why even larger and more powerful drone platforms of the future wont have the capability to hunt subs.

Here is a capability being planned:
https://genatomicsasi.com/general-atomi ... a-mission/

In the ASW mission, the MQ-9B can deploy a field of up to 96 sonobuoys and stay on station to monitor them for up 24 hours, sharing data with the ground or other aircraft. Customers have various ideas on employing UAVs in this mission, ranging from using a single UAV to both deploy and monitor the sonobuoy field, or having the UAV deploy the field and hand off monitoring to a manned platform.

The aircraft’s nine hard points can be equipped with a range of sensors and other weapons as well, depending on mission.

Compare the acquisition and operational cost of a full size MPA ($120 million +) vs a drone ($15 million or so).

Drones as sensors + a long range missile as a shooter makes complete sense and is a future ready weapon by DRDO.

[V_Raman]

We seem to have decided that IOR denial is too expensive with ships/carriers/MPA and come up with this truly out-of-the-box solution. Our carriers can be used for force projection after this is setup.

This is actually a well written article - https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/06/asia/ind ... index.html

Time for us to start working on domestic sensor drones. If Turkey can do it - why not us?!

[Philip]

The Print has given more details such as range,650km, and torpedo descent by parachute once the missile is close to the targeted sub. The LWT torpedo is / is based on the aforementioned ex-Hyena LWT/ALWT DRDO fish !
Described as a gamechanger by the DRDO,a sr.naval officer said that with this stand-off weapon launched from warships and coastal batteries, the IN could saturate the approaches to Gwadar,Karachi and Malacca straits at distances for warships outside torpedo range,though sub detection remained a challenge. A logical improvement would next be to develop an HWT for the missile against surface ships too.

The Hind.Times however gives a crucial detail about warhead,50kg, its range, 20km,up on an earlier range est. in another report.This is a much healthier range for the torpedo to prosecute the sub.

[Avarachan]

That CNN story adds an interesting detail I've not seen anywhere else: that the missile-carrier of the SMART system travels at Mach 3.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/06/asia ... index.html

The Print story states that SMART can be launched from a warship. https://theprint.in/defence/the-smart-t ... re/518428/

Based on the information released until now, I don't think the SMART is a modified Shaurya ... The Shaurya weighs 6,200 kilograms and travels at Mach 7. I don't see how a missile that heavy could fit into the Indian Navy's current warships without major modifications. (India's new destroyers carry 16 BrahMos missiles, which weigh 3,000 kg each.)

In any event, unless the government releases more information, we can only speculate.

[Prem Kumar]

tsarkar: thanks for the wonderful post about TAL, ALWT etc. Delightful read!

But I don't understand your insistence about the unsuitability of SMART with anything other than SOSUS arrays. I can envisage various scenarios (& others have pointed them out as well):

1) Sea denial of subs from the coast upto 650 Kms. Just like Brahmos enables sea-denial of ships
2) Ability to network with Dorniers, Coast Guard vessels, Dhruvs based from the coast or coast guard vessels, sonobuoys, UAVs (equipped with MAD & sonobuoys) etc

Regarding "shooting down own assets", the Shaurya is a highly accurate weapon. Once the launch command is given, our own assets can move into a safe zone outside the kill-box. You must've seen videos of splashdown of Agni's taken from ships. There is a certain confidence level to be positioned close enough to capture the event on camera.

Numbers required to hunt a sub
Target = 1
SMART missiles = 10 (conservatively)
# of sensors = 100

The # of sensors required to detect a sub is an order of magnitude more than the # of weapons required to down it. Currently, the sensor & shooter is the same platform. This seriously limits the # of platforms that can be deployed & their time-on-station because of cost, space, logistics etc.

With the SMART de-coupling, we can proliferate sensor-platforms cost effectively to cover vast areas of the ocean in a 24x7 mode.

A key advantage of a SMART-like weapon is that it imposes a psychological & logistical penalty on the enemy. Their doctrine & strategy has to change, just by the mere knowledge that a low-cost sensor platform can call in the "big boy" (as another poster mentioned). This imposes a cost on them.

There was a recent article about how "area denial" was an essential component of the Chinese doctrine. Their concept of "winning wars without shooting". Their DF-21 and PL-15 missiles are in accordance with this doctrine. What we've done with SMART is impose a similar cost on them.

[nash]

Zee news flash: anti radiation missile Rudra m test fire

[Kakarat]

https://twitter.com/rajnathsingh/status ... 9639045121

The New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile (Rudram-1) which is India’s first indigenous anti-radiation missile developed by @DRDO_India for Indian Air Force was tested successfully today at ITR,Balasore. Congratulations to DRDO & other stakeholders for this remarkable achievement.

[nam]

DRDO is saying it hit the target. Good.

Time to produce it hundreds. The key to hammering Chini radars and SAM.

Hope DRDO test A2A version for AWACS, as well. A passive sensor along with a active one and datalink against AWACS would be perfect. It is after all a bigger Astra.

Not to mention dual pulse test for Astra 2.. For all practical purpose, this is our version of "PL-15"

[Philip]

Excellent news.The Chins mustbe wondering what's next.

[Aditya_V]

DRDO is saying it hit the target. Good.

Time to produce it hundreds. The key to hammering Chini radars and SAM.

Hope DRDO test A2A version for AWACS, as well. A passive sensor along with a active one and datalink against AWACS would be perfect. It is after all a bigger Astra.

Not to mention dual pulse test for Astra 2.. For all practical purpose, this is our version of "PL-15"

or it silently and accidently hit a couple of SAAB 2000's.

[Kakarat]

https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/13 ... 8040459266


There is a NOTAM for 8-10 October 2020 in the above location
If it was RudraM-1 then it was for ~80KM & what could have been the target?

[kit]

Lord ., its raining missiles !!.. Not bad for a civilisation that made the original astra !!

[Vips]

My wish is for a 6 to 10 flower petals carrying MIRV Missile (Agni 6 or whatever be the name) to be soon test fired. We already have information of the 5000 KM range K5 to be test fired in Dec 2021, but the jingo in me says that is so far away.....

[pankajs]

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.asp ... 63083&s=09
DRDO successfully flight tests Indigenously Developed Anti Radiation Missile (RUDRAM)

New generation Anti Radiation Missile (RUDRAM) was successfully Flight tested today onto a radiation target located on Wheeler Island off the coast of Odisha. The missile was launched from SU-30 MKI fighter aircraft.

The RUDRAM is first indigenous anti-radiation missile of the country for Indian Air Force (IAF), being developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The missile is integrated on SU-30 MKI fighter aircraft as the launch platform, having capability of varying ranges based on launch conditions. It has INS-GPS navigation with Passive Homing Head for the final attack. The RUDRAM hit the radiation target with pin-point accuracy.

The Passive Homing Head can detect, classify and engage targets over a wide band of frequencies as programmed. The missile is a potent weapon for IAF for Suppression of Enemy Air Defence effectively from large stand-off ranges.

With this, the country has established indigenous capability to develop long range air launched anti-radiation missiles for neutralising enemy Radars, communication sites and other RF emitting targets.

[Prem Kumar]

This is a scorching pace by DRDO!!

TOI report has many interesting nuggets:

1) Range is 100Km to 200 Km!! (the original article said "beyond" 200 Km. It has since been edited to say "upto" 200 Km)
2) Speed of launch can be Mach 0.6 to Mach 2
3) Pre-programmable against a wide band of frequencies
4) Works against a variety of targets: surveillance radars, FCRs, command & control centres, communication hubs, jamming equipment etc
5) Dual pulse rocket motor
6) Launch height can be 500 m to 15 Km
7) Has lock-on-before-launch and lock-on-after-launch modes!

For once, a Rajat Pandit article worth reading

[darshan]

Unfortunately it also shows that there are many across the board who need to be lined up and sent to jail for treason. One doesn't just click and order missile tests.

[JTull]

[Kakarat]

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 7809835008

New generation first indigenous Anti-Radiation Missile RUDRAM developed by @DRDO_India for Indian Air Force successfully flight tested today onto a radiation target located on Wheeler Island off the coast of Odisha. The missile was launched from SU-30 MKI fighter aircraft.

[Vips]

Question to the gurus. For the missiles that do not use rails and are ejected from the jets - How do they fall horizontally and symmetrically. Why don't they by the gravitational force tilt on the front or tail while falling?

[Kanson]

Also, I did a rough L/D of the SMART missile in image 3 and it came to be about 13. Compare that to the L/D ratio of Shaurya missiles going by its wiki dimensions where the length = 10 m and the diameter = 0.74m. The L/D of Shaurya is = 10/0.74 ~ 13.5 quite close to the SMART's "approx" L/D of the missile in flight.

Intially i too thought that the missile could be fat. But all this could be just perception of these images.

[Sid]

Question to the gurus. For the missiles that do not use rails and are ejected from the jets - How do they fall horizontally and symmetrically. Why don't they by the gravitational force tilt on the front or tail while falling?

That depends on the center of gravity of that missile, and release parameter. These missiles can only be released at certain altitude, speed, and, orientation. E.g. Brahmos tips a bit forward as it has that extra electable cone before firing booster and stabilizing.

[Kanson]

[

This is a great post. CONOPS, networks, and de-confliction is very important. In the gulf-war, an ATACMS launch (a sub 200 km quasi ballistic missile) could need up to 1.5 hours to properly de-conflict and be cleared (in a war where inadequate de-confliction was ID'd as the reason for 1/3 of all coalition blue-blue casualties). The number was still in the minute 7-10 range in OIF (for the same weapon). And that is in the best-case scenario with networks intact, NLOS communications uninterrupted and no fog of war. Future technology is being developed to shrink it to seconds but it is difficult to develop and probably a decade or more out. Long to very long range kill chains are very difficult to close and execute even at the highest technology levels.

There is difference between lumbering slow moving, concentrated & dispersed land based systems & hi speed fast moving highly netwoked air based systems.

[brar_w]

[

This is a great post. CONOPS, networks, and de-confliction is very important. In the gulf-war, an ATACMS launch (a sub 200 km quasi ballistic missile) could need up to 1.5 hours to properly de-conflict and be cleared (in a war where inadequate de-confliction was ID'd as the reason for 1/3 of all coalition blue-blue casualties). The number was still in the minute 7-10 range in OIF (for the same weapon). And that is in the best-case scenario with networks intact, NLOS communications uninterrupted and no fog of war. Future technology is being developed to shrink it to seconds but it is difficult to develop and probably a decade or more out. Long to very long range kill chains are very difficult to close and execute even at the highest technology levels.

There is difference between lumbering slow moving, concentrated & dispersed land based systems & hi speed fast moving highly netwoked air based systems.

Excellent point. I guess, to my initial data, I should also add (and dig up if available) ground target based deconfliction times as the times I had referenced in my earlier post entailed strictly air-space deconfliction though for the munition i used as an example, danger close would be a non-issue as it wasn't at the time even cleared for such an employment so while those data may exist they may not necessarily alter the practical employment procedures for the example i cited..

[Anujan]

If the air resistance/lift is the same in the front and the back and whatever is holding the missile in the front and the back is disengaged at the same time, the missile will fall symmetrically and horizontally. It does not matter how much each part weighs: Galileo showed that with his two balls from pisa tower experiment.

[SRajesh]

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 7809835008

New generation first indigenous Anti-Radiation Missile RUDRAM developed by @DRDO_India for Indian Air Force successfully flight tested today onto a radiation target located on Wheeler Island off the coast of Odisha. The missile was launched from SU-30 MKI fighter aircraft.

Sirji
Just watched a video : the name is RUDRA M has two variants M2 and M3 and not Rudram!!!
And they have been under development since 2016/2017
??Different from NGARM which has been under development since 2012
Watch this video:
https://youtu.be/FNGk9XiCMUQ

[Kakarat]

Another NOTAM, Pralay?
https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/13 ... 5715318786

#Areawarning #India issues a notification regarding "Launch of Experimental Flight Vehicle" in the #BayOfBengal area

Launch Window | 16-17 October 2020

[Kakarat]

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 7809835008
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej44HWmUwAA ... name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej44HWmVkAA ... name=large

Sirji
Just watched a video : the name is RUDRA M has two variants M2 and M3 and not Rudram!!!
And they have been under development since 2016/2017
??Different from NGARM which has been under development since 2012
Watch this video:
https://youtu.be/FNGk9XiCMUQ

Sirji,
That tweet is by MOD Spokesperson not me
NGARM is RudraM-1 and there are another two M2 & M3 on which not much detail is available
The video is by a enthusiast with details from opensource and is not an official one

[Kanson]

Question. Why can't the NGARM be drop launched like the Brahmos or the R-27/77's from the MKI's fuselage HP's? Why does it need this special trapeze launcher? I had assumed they would develop a drop-launcher for the Astra as well to be used on the MKI's fuselage HP's. Now I am thinking the Astra might also use this trapeze launcher eventually.

Yes big missiles/bombs are simply dropped. True.
Check AIM-54.
At the sametime when the stability of the missile that is launched is of paramount importance, you need something to 'handhold' the missile when launching process in on.
Most common method used is rail assisted launch.

Now that the conditions & altitudes from which this missile will be launched is available.
Given the need for stability of the missile during launch at these conditions at the sametime clean seperation required from parent body under these conditions, NGARM launcher is used. It is another form of rail assisted launch.

[Prem Kumar]

In this video, there is a very visible wobble when it free falls & before the booster ignites. Is this normal?

I think the air-launched Brahmos separation was quite clean, if memory serves me right

[nam]

Once we test out the A2A version of Rudram-1, there is no escape for the Pak propeller AWACS.

It is all nice and TFTA to show around number of propeller AWACS in peace time.

In a war, when your adversary is going to have a 200 - 250KM long ARM, streaming at you at Mach 4, datalinked, you really hope the propeller's are rotating fast.. really fast.. to allow you to land quickly.

[John]

I do laugh at 140kg weight quoted for the missile in wiki which is being used by the news media.

[brar_w]

In a war, when your adversary is going to have a 200 - 250KM long ARM, streaming at you at Mach 4, datalinked, you really hope the propeller's are rotating fast.. really fast.. to allow you to land quickly.

200-250 km Air to Air Mach 4+ ARM with a counter shut down capability (that can survive airborne towed decoys and other RF CMs) are still quite difficult to develop. So for now, these AEW will continue to serve a purpose as long as their radars can see beyond the missile envelopes. But yeah eventually, as target RCS's shrink, and your AEW (of all shapes and sizes) need to get closer and closer to still provide a utility, this (relying on them as part of your CONOPS) will become problematic. This is basically what killed the AWACS and JSTAR replacements. Its a concept that is headed towards obsolescence rather fast.

[nam]

200-250 km Air to Air Mach 4+ ARM with a counter shut down capability (that can survive airborne towed decoys and other RF CMs) are still quite difficult to develop. So for now, these AEW will continue to serve a purpose as long as their radars can see beyond the missile envelopes. But yeah eventually, as target RCS's shrink, and your AEW (of all shapes and sizes) need to get closer and closer to still provide a utility, this (relying on them as part of your CONOPS) will become problematic. This is basically what killed the AWACS and JSTAR replacements. Its a concept that is headed towards obsolescence rather fast.

Even if the AEW shuts down it's radar, the platform will still be visible on our AEW. You provide positional data through datalink and the missile will still know where to go. With propellers, you are not going to go far, before the missile is near you..

If it had jet turbines.. there is some hope.

[brar_w]

Even if the AEW shuts down it's radar, the platform will still be visible on our AEW. You provide positional data through datalink and the missile will still know where to go. With propellers, you are not going to go far, before the missile is near you..

How would that concept work? Does the missile have a seeker that can use a third party guidance to get it within a seeker envelope? If it has an ARH seeker then it needs a second seeker capability for it to pick a target in case there is no radiation to home in on. If you want a semi-active intercept you still need an appropriate seeker that is in-band with what is cueing it. You can introduce GPS/INS as a counter to counter-shutdown in case you are targeting ground based, relatively fixed or "deployable" systems. That doesn't work for airborne intercepts.

The US AARGM and AARGM-ER has a MMW active seeker as a primary backup to counter-shutdown (in addition to GPS/INS) but even there there is absolutely no indication (that I have seen, or that has been demonstrated) that the seeker is hardened or capable of countering airborne decoys and RF CM's in those dynamic intercept profiles. There are also issues of speed that come into play with airborne intercepts with MMW seeker heads given the scan rates involved, surmounting which isn't a trivial task. So if you loft (which you would need to maximize range) and are even cable of lofting to what is required, then you could potentially be coming in too fast and therefore must be able to modulate speed for maximizing seeker scan time and probability of detection and tracking.

For a pure ARH profile flying at Mach 2-4 range against a Mach .5-8 target at 200-250 km away, your counter shut down tactics do not need to be as severe or elaborate as what a ground based system would need to execute. At those intercept trajectories, if you loose track for seconds then you have no chance of covering that up unless you can loft really really high which would require a design that we would clearly be able to see. If you want a long range A2A Anti-AWACS missile against a target flying at 30,000 - 50,000 feet (probably your profile of interest with some fringes on either side of that envelope (like HALE or lower flying platforms like helo based AEW aircraft) then you are probably better off designing a dedicated air-air interceptor that can loft very high. Using a ground targeting ARM is probably not the best approach there as the scope creep and design required to meet those dual-requirements will probably make it highly complex and expensive to buy in numbers. Another benefit for a dedicated AIM for this role is that you can optimize the warhead instead of lugging around one that is also optimized for defeating ground based systems.

[JTull]

This was not Rudra M or M2 or M3.

RM's tweet is clear about it.

https://twitter.com/rajnathsingh/status ... 45121?s=20

The New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile (Rudram-1) which is India’s first indigenous anti-radiation missile developed by
@DRDO_India
for Indian Air Force was tested successfully today at ITR,Balasore. Congratulations to DRDO & other stakeholders for this remarkable achievement.

[Sumeet]

In a war, when your adversary is going to have a 200 - 250KM long ARM, streaming at you at Mach 4, datalinked, you really hope the propeller's are rotating fast.. really fast.. to allow you to land quickly.

200-250 km Air to Air Mach 4+ ARM with a counter shut down capability (that can survive airborne towed decoys and other RF CMs) are still quite difficult to develop. So for now, these AEW will continue to serve a purpose as long as their radars can see beyond the missile envelopes. But yeah eventually, as target RCS's shrink, and your AEW (of all shapes and sizes) need to get closer and closer to still provide a utility, this (relying on them as part of your CONOPS) will become problematic. This is basically what killed the AWACS and JSTAR replacements. Its a concept that is headed towards obsolescence rather fast.

Brar If you think AWACS is an outdated concept why is there so much focus (in IAF) to build new ones or buy it from foreign sources for countries like India. Is it because most of our force for next two decades will be non stealthy fighters ? Should not Radar upgrade (say GaN TR modules) based AESA present a solution to low observable systems ? And why can't multiple AWACS not become part of more favored Systems of system approach which may become reality post 2035+.

Here is an article that still advocates need for AWACS type system -- https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1054654.pdf