India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 1380
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by V_Raman »

Given the events, I think Deans-2022 is more likely now.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nam »

62 is infact the perfect template what the Chinis would like to achieve.

62: They attacked and got to advance further. Convinced us to a ceasefire. The icing on the cake was to convince us NOT to alter the LAC for the past 58 years!, despite the fact that China attacked and occupied our areas! We even had a nice deal where we went home in winter, with no one guarding nor bothered to occupy the lost ground!

I mean what stopped us from moving in to Sirijap in winter? It is amazing how cheaply we allowed Chinese to guard LAC.

The Chinese somehow want another 62. Get more land, convince us of our "inferiority". All get to go home in winter, but India to accept the new LAC!
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nam »

Our MEA minister has mentioned that "talks are classified". Translation: India is discussing a face saver deal for the Chinis..

The babus from the both sides must have joined the talks to override local commanders. The primary issue is that the Chinis babu is on the side of PLA. Our babus are "statesman" characters.
suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4041
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by suryag »

Can you all stop whining and other R&D, in the age of readymade satellite images and 15 min wannabe heroes who will pay 25k to publish the images the truth will be out soon. Have faith guys!!
kumarn
BRFite
Posts: 486
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 16:19

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by kumarn »

We will looose wonleee!!!
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Philip »

Why do we need to enter into a " face-saving" deal for the sh*tworms of Zhongnanhai? Let the world watch how India has shoved its bayonets up the nether ends of the "yellow peril."
It's past time for India to flex its muscles and show Asia and the world that we can not only stand up to Commie Chins but also bloody their backsides. Our MEA mandarins are steeped in the art of kow-tow towards the PRC,not kalaripayattu,which they should practice!
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by pankajs »

Embedded video ...

https://twitter.com/FreakingBeasts/stat ... 0617975809

Chinese Social Media Video showing PLA Postions on the southern bank of #PangongTso very close to Indian Positions.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nam »

It is not about loosing. I fear our babus will find a solution, even if it is a tactical victory.

It is very important, that we don't find a solution. The continuation of the standoff is very important for our future.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14332
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

pankajs wrote:Embedded video ...

https://twitter.com/FreakingBeasts/stat ... 0617975809

Chinese Social Media Video showing PLA Postions on the southern bank of #PangongTso very close to Indian Positions.
This was in summer in the best of conditions.
putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4665
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by putnanja »

China insists Indians vacate Chushul heights, India says clear Pangong north
China’s insistence on India vacating its advanced positions on the south bank of Pangong Tso as a precursor to discussions on Delhi’s demand for status quo ante of April has emerged as the new sticking point in efforts to resolve the military standoff along the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh, highly placed government sources said Friday.

Sources said Delhi is insisting on simultaneous withdrawal of forces from the Pangong north bank — where Chinese troops have crossed the point which India says marks the LAC — and advanced Indian positions on the south bank to mutually agreed locations. A source in the ruling establishment, familiar with developments on the Ladakh frontier, said India crossed the LAC at “seven places” to counter the Chinese transgressions.

“We have crossed over at seven places. Why do you think China is still at the negotiating table?” the source said. The Chinese demand comes in the backdrop of Indian troops occupying advanced positions, beyond its patrolling points, in the Chushul sub-sector towards the end of August.
...
...
The Indian political establishment, however, remains wary of Beijing’s commitment despite the dialogues that Defence Minister Rajnath Singh and External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar had with their Chinese counterparts in Moscow.

“The talks between Defence Ministers and Foreign Ministers of both sides were on similar lines. Beijing only says that it wants peace and tranquillity at the border between the two countries. But this is what India also wants. They (the Chinese) don’t, however, explain the reason for their troop build-up,” the source said.

“Kuchh bhi ho sakta hai. Vishwas nahin hota hai China par. We are prepared for any eventuality,” the source said, pointing out that enough supplies for the winter have been made available to Indian forces to mirror the Chinese build-up at the Ladakh frontier.
...
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8785
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by vijayk »

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/india-cro ... -officials
India Crossed LAC At Seven Places To Bring China To The Negotiating Table, Says Report Citing Officials
AdityaM
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2025
Joined: 30 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: New Delhi

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by AdityaM »

occupying advanced positions, beyond its patrolling points
This could just mean we r present beyond traditional patrolling points, but within the LAC. We know that has already happened.
Doesn't mean much.
Last edited by AdityaM on 18 Oct 2020 01:08, edited 1 time in total.
vnadendla
BRFite
Posts: 156
Joined: 09 Mar 2006 00:40
Location: USA

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by vnadendla »

AdityaM wrote:
occupying advanced positions, beyond its patrolling points
This could just mean we r present beyond traditional patrolling points, but within the LAC. We know that has already happened.
Doesn't mean much.
You mean all this Hullaboo over Kala Top? No! Crossed at 7 points seems more appropriate given the reaction of Chinese.
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6094
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by sanjaykumar »

Not surprising at all. Really only a confirmation.

The question is what purpose does it serve the GOI to leak this information at this time.
satya
BRFite
Posts: 718
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 03:09

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by satya »

sanjaykumar wrote:Not surprising at all. Really only a confirmation.

The question is what purpose does it serve the GOI to leak this information at this time.
First Create a perception of Two Steps forward & later One step backward. ( troops withdrawal in Simple terms but packed for gullible indian public)
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by fanne »

bus sahab sare deshbhakt aur stategist BR par bhare pade hain. GOI me to dogle log bhare pade hain. Itni deshbhakti dikhao, jakar election lado, army me bharti ho jao ya defaince me self immolate ho jayo. Kuch to karo, bas gyan dena band karo. Some TFTA pakistani were left in India, they now come at BR, check their TFTA ness and proclaim every one else has loose a$$ (meaning sell out). Give me a break!!
vnadendla
BRFite
Posts: 156
Joined: 09 Mar 2006 00:40
Location: USA

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by vnadendla »

sanjaykumar wrote:Not surprising at all. Really only a confirmation.

The question is what purpose does it serve the GOI to leak this information at this time.
Pressure on China. Once this information is public, we cannot go back. So lets make a deal now ; thats the argument.

Ignoring the conspiracy theories.
nandakumar
BRFite
Posts: 1638
Joined: 10 May 2010 13:37

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nandakumar »

The only deal that China would want that they continue to remain in Galwan valley and we vacating the heights in Kailas range. As a concession they might release some video footage of Chinese soldiers packing up and leaving while keeping defensive positions intact for reoccupying the valley. If GOI is okay with this arrangement what is there to say? Complete sell out.
LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 673
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by LakshmanPST »

nandakumar wrote:The only deal that China would want that they continue to remain in Galwan valley and we vacating the heights in Kailas range. As a concession they might release some video footage of Chinese soldiers packing up and leaving while keeping defensive positions intact for reoccupying the valley. If GOI is okay with this arrangement what is there to say? Complete sell out.
Except for the last 5km stretch, India never had control of Galwan valley since 1962... And we are not going to give up the last 5 km anyway...
What exactly is your point...???
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by pankajs »

We are adept at creating scenarios so that we can collectively spit on India.
Kritavarman
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 53
Joined: 31 Aug 2008 17:50
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Kritavarman »

Will Mods please step in

This thread is turning into mere speculation and whataboutery with no valid basis and many preposterous assumptions.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by fanne »

Yes admin, can we please do something about the crowd that comes everyday and shout sellout for no reason? No valid or logical point, just their fear or worst some hidden agenda. If they suffer from inferiority complex (where India always looses or gets betrayed) they should go and see a shrink not come on BR and dump.
Sonugn
BRFite
Posts: 446
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 12:03
Location: DeceptyKon Workshop

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Sonugn »

It seems that the Chinese are upping the ante on Taiwan.

1. Could be a diversion for something on LAC
2. Could be a ploy to force Taiwan to go slow on it's diplomatic overtures to other countries
Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 1054
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Guddu »

Anyone willing to guess, how this ends...this year or next. Or will this become a permanent situation like the LOC. I fear we have converted the LAC to LOC.
Will Taiwanese PM be republic day guest ?...seems impossible for now. Of note, the US has invited Tibetan representatives for discussions to the USA.
Sonugn
BRFite
Posts: 446
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 12:03
Location: DeceptyKon Workshop

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Sonugn »

Guddu wrote:Anyone willing to guess, how this ends...this year or next. Or will this become a permanent situation like the LOC. I fear we have converted the LAC to LOC.
Will Taiwanese PM be republic day guest ?...seems impossible for now. Of note, the US has invited Tibetan representatives for discussions to the USA.
1. Either GOI or CCP regime needs to blink first, else we are in long LOC haul
2.I wish Taiwanese leader be the republic day guest but this won't happen
eklavya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2159
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by eklavya »

Taiwan should be invited to join the Quad dialogue. Frankly, they have a much bigger issue with CCP fascism than Oz. Taiwan Air Force should also be invited to practice war drills with IAF.
csharma
BRFite
Posts: 694
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by csharma »

China might do a quick strike and proclaim victory. They might be looking for an opportunity. Jayadev Ranade spoke about this.

Of course IA is there to deny them this opportunity.
nandakumar
BRFite
Posts: 1638
Joined: 10 May 2010 13:37

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nandakumar »

LakshmanPST wrote:
nandakumar wrote:The only deal that China would want that they continue to remain in Galwan valley and we vacating the heights in Kailas range. As a concession they might release some video footage of Chinese soldiers packing up and leaving while keeping defensive positions intact for reoccupying the valley. If GOI is okay with this arrangement what is there to say? Complete sell out.
Except for the last 5km stretch, India never had control of Galwan valley since 1962... And we are not going to give up the last 5 km anyway...
What exactly is your point...???
Isn't the 5 kms stretch the bone of contention? If there is going to be a deal they would go through the motion of vacating and then reoccupy the same land after we vacate the heights on Kailash range. I was afraid of such a deal which was what I was expressing in my earlier post.
Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10033
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Mort Walker »

Let me ask one thing which is peripherally related to Indian military personnel on the border? Has the Dearness Allowance been restored to military personnel stationed at India's borders? For civilians in the MoD and the rest of GoI personnel, it is on hold until July 2021.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Karan M »

satya wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Not surprising at all. Really only a confirmation.

The question is what purpose does it serve the GOI to leak this information at this time.
First Create a perception of Two Steps forward & later One step backward. ( troops withdrawal in Simple terms but packed for gullible indian public)
Kindly don't make such defeatist posts without any tangible evidence.
LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 673
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by LakshmanPST »

nandakumar wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:
Except for the last 5km stretch, India never had control of Galwan valley since 1962... And we are not going to give up the last 5 km anyway...
What exactly is your point...???
Isn't the 5 kms stretch the bone of contention? If there is going to be a deal they would go through the motion of vacating and then reoccupy the same land after we vacate the heights on Kailash range. I was afraid of such a deal which was what I was expressing in my earlier post.
That 5 kms stretch is NOT the bone of contention... Yes, China would like to occupy it, but it is not the only area thay want... China would want to occupy entire Ladakh...
The last 5 km stretch of Galwan has always been under Indian control... It was never under Chinese control... They do not control the heights in that area either...
If India gives up that stretch, the whole DS-DBO road will be useless... Our Generals are not fools to give up that area... Even if some BIF govt. wants to give it away in future, they will resist it the way they resisted the proposed 'Siachin demilitarization'...
-
Think logocally for a minute, why would India give up two strategically important locations simultaneously for nothing...??? Both Kailash range and 5km Galwan stretch are strategically important for us... And we occupy them both...
Why would we give them off to China just like that and go home...? For what...?
We are not even giving up strategically less important area between Finger 4 to 8...
You're just making wild speculations without any evidence (not even from any source based news from credible journalists)...
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by tsarkar »

AdityaM wrote:
occupying advanced positions, beyond its patrolling points
This could just mean we r present beyond traditional patrolling points, but within the LAC. We know that has already happened.
Doesn't mean much.
Within Indian territory as per Chinese perception of LAC.

What this means is that China wants India to withdraw from Indian Territory (as per Chinese perception of LAC) before China possibly moves back from Indian Territory with no assurances of reoccupying it (and other areas now occupied by India) at a future point of time.

Near Finger 8 is Sirijap is where Dhan Singh Thapa famously fought out of ammunition down to three men before killing Chinese in hand to hand combat. He was awarded the Param Vir Chakra for this action. The Chinese didnt advance beyond that point in 1962

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirijap
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhan_Singh_Thapa

Interesting to see how the negotiations play out in the days to come.
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by pankajs »

Guddu wrote:Anyone willing to guess, how this ends...this year or next. Or will this become a permanent situation like the LOC. I fear we have converted the LAC to LOC.
Will Taiwanese PM be republic day guest ?...seems impossible for now. Of note, the US has invited Tibetan representatives for discussions to the USA.
Yes we should just accept the Chinese terms and every thing will be back to "normal". LAC will remain LAC.

PM of India does NOT even acknowledge a public message.from the Taiwan president and we have people inviting her for Republic day parade!

India == US but only in the dreams of the jingos.
JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3118
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by JTull »

Chinese soldier apprehended by Indian Army in Ladakh
A Chinese Army soldier was apprehended near ChumarDemchok area of Ladakh on Monday morning.

The PLA soldier is currently in captivity of Indian Army. According to sources, the soldier might have entered the Indian territory inadvertently.

He will be returned to Chinese Army as per established protocol after following due procedure, sources were quoted as saying by news agency ANI.

The latest incident was reported as both India and China held eighth round of discussion to resolve the border dispute in eastern Ladakh.

The previous meeting of the military commanders from both sides to resolve the six month standoff was held at Chushul on October 12 but too ended without any resolution of the dispute.
madhu
BRFite
Posts: 730
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 17:00
Location: India

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by madhu »

Chinese Soldier Captured in Ladakh's Demchok, Was Carrying Civil and Military Documents
solider of People's Liberation Army (PLA) has been captured near Demchok area of Ladakh, said sources in the Army. This comes amid the border tussle between India and China in the region.
The Army is questioning the soldier, who is said to be from the 6th Motorised Infantry Division, to see if he is on an espionage mission. He was carrying civil and military documents, sources said.
The solider claimed to have entered India to recover his yak, sources said, adding that he was alone and had no weapons. "If he has entered inadvertently, he will be handed back to the Chinese as per protocol," they further said.
The incident is said to have taken place on Sunday night. Sources said that Army is now preparing a formal statement.
Last edited by ramana on 20 Oct 2020 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added highlight.ramana
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14332
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

Any updates on this, 1 soldier seems odd, could be lost or spying. One would expect a patrol to infiltrate.
k prasad
BRFite
Posts: 962
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 17:38
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by k prasad »

I wonder which part of Demchok 'area' this was in. At least at the Denchok village, the control lines seem to be fairly demarcated by the Indus River on the east and a nullah to the south, so it's hard for someone to cross that part of the boundary by accident.

Possibility 1 is that this is in another part of that sector where we control areas on the eastern banks of the Indus, or option 2, we control some territory south of the nullah, or option 3, that it was a "here kitty kitty" situation and the PLA grunt thought he could sneak in and back and pick up the yak without either side being the wiser. Or option 4 is that it was an attempt at gauging our responses.

I suspect it's either option 1 or 3.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by fanne »

Zimble only read baba tweet 4 vs 7. They had 4 of our people, we got 7, a colonel to boot. Now it is next move in the chess where we announce it. Only request rudaalis please no breast beating.
RajaRudra
BRFite
Posts: 344
Joined: 17 Sep 2019 14:13

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by RajaRudra »

k prasad wrote:I wonder which part of Demchok 'area' this was in. At least at the Denchok village, the control lines seem to be fairly demarcated by the Indus River on the east and a nullah to the south, so it's hard for someone to cross that part of the boundary by accident.

Possibility 1 is that this is in another part of that sector where we control areas on the eastern banks of the Indus, or option 2, we control some territory south of the nullah, or option 3, that it was a "here kitty kitty" situation and the PLA grunt thought he could sneak in and back and pick up the yak without either side being the wiser. Or option 4 is that it was an attempt at gauging our responses.

I suspect it's either option 1 or 3.
Pressure will be on Communist militia to get their lad back by request or pledge.
What ever, its time to take a popcorn and enjoy the show.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25087
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

Australia included in Malabar 2020
Post Reply