Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Oct 2020 19:25

Each IAF flight plans 4 guns plus a radar and 60 such flights. Even SWARMs would find it tough. Especially if we get some proper new gen fragmentation rounds.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 28 Oct 2020 20:54

Karan M wrote:Each IAF flight plans 4 guns plus a radar and 60 such flights. Even SWARMs would find it tough. Especially if we get some proper new gen fragmentation rounds.

I doubt if you can fight off swarm with traditional SAM + AA GUN concept. Swarm is a disruptive idea in ways more than one. May be a technological solution like lockheed martin's Miniature Hit to kill missile will work.(per shot cost $16000 as per wikipedia. Indian solution will likely be much cheaper). Or a counter swarm itself. The tradition SAM systems will be effective against only a small swarm that too after it somehow manages to detect it. Against larger swarms I doubt if it will have deep magazine capacity enough. Plus the per shot cost would tilt the engagement to the attacker's side from a purely financial perspective.

But more than technology, tactics and mindset will matter. More spread out forces. More redundancies. Whether it is ammo depot or fuel storage or even the living barracks for troops, move it underground. Unlike twenty years back, today tunneling is our strength. As part of various road, rail, metro, crude oil storage projects we have gained vast experience in creating tunnelling and underground infrastructure. If we execute even 5% of this experience for military, it will go a long way in protecting us from any sudden strike. Iran even uses such tunnels to launch its missiles. It is different from underground silos which can be neutralized relatively easier. During vietnam war a guerrilla group like vietcong was able to create 100's of kms of tunnels. We should be able to do much better with our current expertise. Anything above ground level will eventually be acquired and neutralised. Invest in thermal stealth for military vehicles. Plus use civilian vehicles for visual stealth and civilian areas to hide your troops and equipment. Russia had released some concept work for shipping container based cruise missiles. Also use commercial container ships to launch your own swarms and cruise missiles.While India's progress on radars is very impressive, passive sensors are going to be much more relevant on future battlefields. 'Cause radars are themselves going to be targets. Just check the number of radars destroyed in armenia azerbaizan conflict.

The most important point is try to be the one who attacks first as chances might be that the first strike itself be debilitating. What if top leadership of the military itself is targeted during the first strike. Another point is that you stop expecting a clean conflict where you will suffer close to zero casualties like US in Desert storm or balkan wars. That period was an a aberration even for a country like US. If you are fighting a peer or near peer competitor, chances are that you will suffer horrendous casualties. Be mentally prepared for the bloodshed. The future battlefield will offer very less places to hide.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 28 Oct 2020 20:58

I have a prediction. The most scary weapon ten years down the line will be swarming munitions with 3D cell phone triangulation for a seeker.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 28 Oct 2020 21:12

EMP weapons should play a very important role in countering the offensive swarms. The defining feature of the swarm is that the drones which are part of it communicate and coordinate with each other to attack the target(s) in an optimum manner. Now theoretically if you are able to disrupt or destroy this communicating capability, it no longer remains a swarm. It just becomes a group of dumb drones which will not be that lethal. To overcome this threat to its swarm, the enemy can choose to EMP harden its swarm drones. But this will only make these drones much more expensive thereby negating another feature of the swarm i.e expendability based on cheap drones

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 28 Oct 2020 21:13

darshhan wrote:
Karan M wrote:Each IAF flight plans 4 guns plus a radar and 60 such flights. Even SWARMs would find it tough. Especially if we get some proper new gen fragmentation rounds.
I doubt if you can fight off swarm with traditional SAM + AA GUN concept.
The most important point is try to be the one who attacks first as chances might be that the first strike itself be debilitating. .

my 2 cents on this
1. You are right that first strike would be deblitating, but i dont think that more than a full bomber or fighter jet strike. All militaries plan for that sort of contingency. YOu may debate that in terms of event probability and event loss perspective they will be more harmful than a fighter jet. But on an and average a 1000 lbs bomb can do more damage than say 100 10 kg bombs. And even if more, areas could be resupplied if one is in for a long haul.
2. regarding taking them up, swarm Drones are not likely to have A10 levels of protection. I think expendable drone based fragmentation rounds or some hydrobaric bombs that operate at similar frequency would help. robust sensors and AI fusion can help a lot in that. Do we have that, almost certainly no. Another way could be EMP but that in my opinion that opens up the prospect of a nuke war

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Oct 2020 21:14

darshhan wrote:
Karan M wrote:Each IAF flight plans 4 guns plus a radar and 60 such flights. Even SWARMs would find it tough. Especially if we get some proper new gen fragmentation rounds.
I doubt if you can fight off swarm with traditional SAM + AA GUN concept.

You can. Google for the AHEAD round.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 28 Oct 2020 21:49

Jamming works very well against present generation drones & loitering munitions without sophisticated communication but Armenian systems are Soviet era (90's) and incapable. Being under Russian umbrella they never modernized unlike Azeri's who along with Turks heavily purchased Israeli systems before Erdogan.

Lasers are the next option against swarms.

Systems like Iron Dome and APKWS are the next best thing against swarms.

IN specifically ordered APKWS with its Seahawk Romeos to take on Pakistani swarm boats.

The Israelis offered a naval version of Iron Dome called Sea Dome to work with existing Elta 2248 radar and COMPASS EO laser rangefinder/designator for IN SRSAM requirement and Barak 1 replacement. It would have replaced two of the AK-630 on the Kolkata and Vizag classes like the Barak-1 on Delhi class. Not sure what happened to that joint development proposal.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 28 Oct 2020 21:55

Lasers will always be limited against true swarms due to their dwell time, beam and magazine size limitations. They have to be mixed in with an HPM (this is the reason why they are being positioned in pairs/teams). At the tactical edge, you have to put guns on platforms for self defense. Anything that carries a 30 mm or larger gun has to be able to defeat the UAS threat at 2-3 km away and do so locally . Area defense in the 10s of km is going to be very challenging. There are quite capable C-UAS solutions available for smaller caliber gun (see below) based systems for mobile and light weight applications. They will be effective against Group 1 and 2 systems. Against swarms, all bets are off and you have to miniaturize HPM and HEL solutions and begin imparting that cost on the red team, otherwise they'll just overwhelm whatever kinetic you may be able to throw at them. These have to be part of your mobile formations.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 28 Oct 2020 21:56

Karan M wrote:Especially if we get some proper new gen fragmentation rounds.

We have this manufactured by OFB under full ToT & License from Swedes for many years -

http://164.100.95.83/products/data/ammunition/mc/14.htm

The 40/70 PFFC IM 212, HE Pre Formed Fragmentation with Tungsten Cubes, has been designed for firing in the 40 mm L70 BOFORS and BREDA 40 L70 guns.

The L40/70 is a very good dual purpose anti aircraft anti surface gun. It just needs a good radar and EO system and a turret with electric drives.

Maybe a L40/70 turret with Atulya and COMPASS on top will be a great land based and sea based CIWS.

https://ofb.gov.in/uploads/unit/0/cag_report.pdf

Page 26

40mm PFFC: Used against aircraft and sea skimmer missile threats. (Fuze: FB-40)

BTW this page has photos of Indian Armed Forces's most preferred munitions.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 28 Oct 2020 21:59

Karan M wrote:
darshhan wrote:
I doubt if you can fight off swarm with traditional SAM + AA GUN concept.
You can. Google for the AHEAD round.

It is an effective weapon no doubt. Per shot cost would also be relatively very less.

But again what if swarming drones decide to attack the target from different directions that too in 3D. As I said the defining feature of the swarm is the ability to coordinate between themselves to ensure the best possible course of action in order to destroy the target. This is what will make the SWARM extremely lethal.

How many CIWS(with AHEAD) are you going to deploy at the said target to provide 360 degree defense? Is this approach even feasible for majority of battlefield targets?

I do feel that militaries will employ some combination of CIWS(AHEAD) along with some sort of MHTK type solution. Possibly followed by your own counter swarm which will probably also include EMP warheads. But will this ensure complete defendability of the target? I have my doubts.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 28 Oct 2020 22:02

darshhan wrote:How many CIWS(with AHEAD) are you going to deploy at the said target to provide 360 degree defense? Is this approach even feasible for majority of battlefield targets?

CIWS have turrets with super fast electric drives for 360 degree coverage in azimuth and 89 degrees in elevation

https://www.wired.com/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki/

John · Post by **John** » 28 Oct 2020 22:05

Part of me supports the idea of using gun based solution for counter artillery, projectiles and uav role but more I look into it more I realize it is better to develop a cost effective missile solution (lasers are ultimate solution but we are some ways away from fielding anything). Take for example Iron dome the missile costs around 30-40k where as burst from 30mm AK-630 rounds will cost about 10-20k, former offers much higher probability and if you factor highly expensive rounds like AHEAD I just don't think they make any sense compared to missiles.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 28 Oct 2020 22:08

darshhan wrote:How many CIWS(with AHEAD) are you going to deploy at the said target to provide 360 degree defense? Is this approach even feasible for majority of battlefield targets?

By itself it is not going to be 100% effective. No Air Defense system is 100% effective at defeating all the threats it is designed to defeat be it BMD, AAW or C-UAS specific systems. This applies to systems at all price points, S-400, S-500, THAAD etc etc. This is why you layer systems with the amount of layering dependent upon how value the target is, how much mobility is required, and how much logistical capability you possess (a fixed installation vs a deploying unit for example). Directed Energy (HEL and HPM for now) is a great way to affordably layer given much deeper magazines but even they are not 100% effective against all such threats. At the end, survivable is a combination of a layered air defense approach, hardened shelters, proper early warning sensors, decoying and being able to impose costs on the enemy (via offensive capability or by moving constantly if its a tactical formation and not a fixed installation). Not to mention being able to quickly damage repair and continue to fight on. The best description of air-defenses I've heard came from a practioner of BMD and went something like (paraphrasing) - " The role of effective Air Defense is to mitigate damage and buy time to win a missile war through other offensive measures". It is the same with C-UAS and counter swarm. If you layer you impose costs and those costs mean the enemies swarm munitions or drones would need to be more capable, heavier (HEL/HMP protection), smarter and thus more expensive. But you won't knock all of them out. In battle, you may only be able to degrade a swarm by 50%, for example, so you must be able to fight and survive any damage caused by those that made through.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 28 Oct 2020 22:12

Imagine a single drone using Raspberry PI or Tessel2 with GPS module and video feed from a simple 4k camera feeding to a ML model running on the phone for locating the target image - this tracking is doable today - all camera drones do this

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 28 Oct 2020 22:17

V_Raman wrote:Imagine a single drone using Raspberry PI or Tessel2 with GPS module and video feed from a simple 4k camera feeding to a ML model running on the phone for locating the target image - this tracking is doable today - all camera drones do this

Easy to imagine and also easy to defeat something that is utilizing no Milspec components that have no hardening to survive even rudimentary, off the shelf, denial systems. In fact, commercial solutions to counter such things are being developed and deployed around civilian infrastructure. These things are only a threat if you were caught sleeping and didn't invest in countermeasures. I think the broader worrying concern would be with something a state actor, with Mil-Grade equipment and access to higher levels of technology can put forth.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 28 Oct 2020 22:22

No one seems to be talking about collateral damage involved in swarm vs anti swarm debate. Enemy doesn't care about collateral damage but India does. This introduces some constraints.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 28 Oct 2020 22:23

tsarkar wrote:
darshhan wrote:How many CIWS(with AHEAD) are you going to deploy at the said target to provide 360 degree defense? Is this approach even feasible for majority of battlefield targets?
CIWS have turrets with super fast electric drives for 360 degree coverage in azimuth and 89 degrees in elevation

https://www.wired.com/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki/

Let me paint a scenario. A swarm of harop equivalent drones, let us say 20 nos. is attacking a target. Let us assume the drone speed is 250-300 kmph. CIWS range is assumed to be anywhere from 3-5 kms. Each drone has a warhead of 20 kgs. Just before entering this range the swarming drones spread out to attack the target from different trajectories. Some will even flank the target totally to come in from opposite side. Some will come in high. Some will come in low. Now can a single CIWS successfully engage all these drones at once considering the fact that all these drones will be attacking simultaneously and CIWS has less than one minute to neutralize all the drones once they enter within its range. 300 kmph speed means that drones are covering 5 kms per minute.

Yes CIWS can rotate to provide 360 degree protection, but can it do it wrt multiple drones all at once.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 28 Oct 2020 22:49

One advice for the coming swarm warfare. Invest heavily in underground storage and tunneling among other things.

Another advice. Wipe out your enemies as early as you can. Don't wait for them to accumulate loitering munitions. Swarm is another matter altogether. These weapons are great levellers. Destroy Pakistan before they get these weapons. They are keenly watching Armenia Azerbaizan conflict. Loitering munitions offer them an easy and assymetric way to inflict serious casualties and negate the advantages if a much larger India. Similarly violently engage China on LAC before they develop loitering munitions adapted for high altitude operations. Right now I doubt if their and for that matter even our loitering munitions(Harop etc) are suited for high altitude ops. Google shows harop's maximum altitude as 15000 ft. Very few places on Ladakh Tibet border would be less than this altitude.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 28 Oct 2020 22:58

brar_w wrote:
darshhan wrote:How many CIWS(with AHEAD) are you going to deploy at the said target to provide 360 degree defense? Is this approach even feasible for majority of battlefield targets?
By itself it is not going to be 100% effective. No Air Defense system is 100% effective at defeating all the threats it is designed to defeat be it BMD, AAW or C-UAS specific systems. This applies to systems at all price points, S-400, S-500, THAAD etc etc. This is why you layer systems with the amount of layering dependent upon how value the target is, how much mobility is required, and how much logistical capability you possess (a fixed installation vs a deploying unit for example). Directed Energy (HEL and HPM for now) is a great way to affordably layer given much deeper magazines but even they are not 100% effective against all such threats. At the end, survivable is a combination of a layered air defense approach, hardened shelters, proper early warning sensors, decoying and being able to impose costs on the enemy (via offensive capability or by moving constantly if its a tactical formation and not a fixed installation). Not to mention being able to quickly damage repair and continue to fight on. The best description of air-defenses I've heard came from a practioner of BMD and went something like (paraphrasing) - " The role of effective Air Defense is to mitigate damage and buy time to win a missile war through other offensive measures". It is the same with C-UAS and counter swarm. If you layer you impose costs and those costs mean the enemies swarm munitions or drones would need to be more capable, heavier (HEL/HMP protection), smarter and thus more expensive. But you won't knock all of them out. In battle, you may only be able to degrade a swarm by 50%, for example, so you must be able to fight and survive any damage caused by those that made through.

Agree with you.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Oct 2020 10:44

darshhan wrote:
tsarkar wrote: CIWS have turrets with super fast electric drives for 360 degree coverage in azimuth and 89 degrees in elevation

https://www.wired.com/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki/

Let me paint a scenario. A swarm of harop equivalent drones, let us say 20 nos. is attacking a target. Let us assume the drone speed is 250-300 kmph. CIWS range is assumed to be anywhere from 3-5 kms. Each drone has a warhead of 20 kgs. Just before entering this range the swarming drones spread out to attack the target from different trajectories. Some will even flank the target totally to come in from opposite side. Some will come in high. Some will come in low. Now can a single CIWS successfully engage all these drones at once considering the fact that all these drones will be attacking simultaneously and CIWS has less than one minute to neutralize all the drones once they enter within its range. 300 kmph speed means that drones are covering 5 kms per minute.

Yes CIWS can rotate to provide 360 degree protection, but can it do it wrt multiple drones all at once.

What makes you imagine there will be one a single CIWS? There are air defence batteries and regiments/squadrons defending static targets.

An IAF battery will have multiple L40/70 guns and flycatcher radars with PFFC warheads.

Please note that when drones increase, they will cluster together making PFFC warheads even more effective.

Secondly, the command & GPS signals for the drones will be jammed from standoff ranges as first line of defence.

Armenia is a bad example as being a Russian protectorate for many years it has not modernized its forces.

Our AD guns with PFFC shells and Flycatcher/ADFCR Atulya radars have been designed to take out multiple bombs and missiles dropped by aircraft. So slower drones wont be a problem.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Oct 2020 10:46

darshan wrote:No one seems to be talking about collateral damage involved in swarm vs anti swarm debate. Enemy doesn't care about collateral damage but India does. This introduces some constraints.

There are zones where enemy aerial objects damaged by own AA allowed to fall. This includes own unengaged missiles that havent self destructed.

george · Post by **george** » 29 Oct 2020 12:30

darshhan wrote:
tsarkar wrote: CIWS have turrets with super fast electric drives for 360 degree coverage in azimuth and 89 degrees in elevation

https://www.wired.com/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki/

Let me paint a scenario. A swarm of harop equivalent drones, let us say 20 nos. is attacking a target. Let us assume the drone speed is 250-300 kmph. CIWS range is assumed to be anywhere from 3-5 kms. Each drone has a warhead of 20 kgs. Just before entering this range the swarming drones spread out to attack the target from different trajectories. Some will even flank the target totally to come in from opposite side. Some will come in high. Some will come in low. Now can a single CIWS successfully engage all these drones at once considering the fact that all these drones will be attacking simultaneously and CIWS has less than one minute to neutralize all the drones once they enter within its range. 300 kmph speed means that drones are covering 5 kms per minute.

Yes CIWS can rotate to provide 360 degree protection, but can it do it wrt multiple drones all at once.

Hi Darshan, everything else aside, for a warhead payload of 20 Kgs and drone speed of 300 kph, you are talking of some multi million dollar drones here. Not to mention the weight required to even move this over any significant range.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 29 Oct 2020 13:03

george wrote:
darshhan wrote:

Let me paint a scenario. A swarm of harop equivalent drones, let us say 20 nos. is attacking a target. Let us assume the drone speed is 250-300 kmph. CIWS range is assumed to be anywhere from 3-5 kms. Each drone has a warhead of 20 kgs. Just before entering this range the swarming drones spread out to attack the target from different trajectories. Some will even flank the target totally to come in from opposite side. Some will come in high. Some will come in low. Now can a single CIWS successfully engage all these drones at once considering the fact that all these drones will be attacking simultaneously and CIWS has less than one minute to neutralize all the drones once they enter within its range. 300 kmph speed means that drones are covering 5 kms per minute.

Yes CIWS can rotate to provide 360 degree protection, but can it do it wrt multiple drones all at once.

Hi Darshan, everything else aside, for a warhead payload of 20 Kgs and drone speed of 300 kph, you are talking of some multi million dollar drones here. Not to mention the weight required to even move this over any significant range.

Lol. This is not my specifications. This is approximate specifications for IAI harop loitering munitions. Kindly check it up. You should probably ask this question to various militaries who are buying this system including India.

Secondly this multi million dollar tag that you are quoting is the price that IAI charges and not the actual cost of production. If you calculate the cost using first principles method, you will be surprised how low the actual cost can be. In this case IAI is laughing all the way to bank.

Swarm will make sense only when you either indigenously mass produce the drones at a low cost or find a low supplier probably some shady firm in Shenzen China

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 29 Oct 2020 13:06

tsarkar wrote:
darshhan wrote:

Let me paint a scenario. A swarm of harop equivalent drones, let us say 20 nos. is attacking a target. Let us assume the drone speed is 250-300 kmph. CIWS range is assumed to be anywhere from 3-5 kms. Each drone has a warhead of 20 kgs. Just before entering this range the swarming drones spread out to attack the target from different trajectories. Some will even flank the target totally to come in from opposite side. Some will come in high. Some will come in low. Now can a single CIWS successfully engage all these drones at once considering the fact that all these drones will be attacking simultaneously and CIWS has less than one minute to neutralize all the drones once they enter within its range. 300 kmph speed means that drones are covering 5 kms per minute.

Yes CIWS can rotate to provide 360 degree protection, but can it do it wrt multiple drones all at once.
What makes you imagine there will be one a single CIWS? There are air defence batteries and regiments/squadrons defending static targets.

An IAF battery will have multiple L40/70 guns and flycatcher radars with PFFC warheads.

Please note that when drones increase, they will cluster together making PFFC warheads even more effective.

Secondly, the command & GPS signals for the drones will be jammed from standoff ranges as first line of defence.

Armenia is a bad example as being a Russian protectorate for many years it has not modernized its forces.

Our AD guns with PFFC shells and Flycatcher/ADFCR Atulya radars have been designed to take out multiple bombs and missiles dropped by aircraft. So slower drones wont be a problem.

That is the point I was making. One CIWS will definitely not be enough. Now how many battlefield facilities can support multiple CIWS whether on land or sea.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 29 Oct 2020 13:28

Drones have made saturation attacks a reality. Counter defences just wont work against saturation attacks. Because the enemy is now dictating the attack mode, time and place.

Something super assymetrical would work here. Like stingers did. Frying drone eletronics at sufficient ranges will work well. Drones wont come with countermeasures. Frying electronics will also be non-contact/quick shot - u wud literally be attacking drones at the speed of light.

Also if its not mechanically u can switch the radiation beam electronically instead of mechanically. Keep CIWS or handheld gunsshots as second cordon for drones that dont get fried up.

But best is, make our own drones too.

Talk to Taiwan - they will want to help here - give them a trade consulate in Delhi or a diplomatic win and a joint production trade deal in a SEZ (Taiwanese will love that and setup something quickly, TOT will also be possible - get someone like Wipro or TAS or someone to get this going along supe quickly). Start with import of componenents, whose assembly is not happening locally - some PCBs are anyways not printed in India - so we will have to keep importing them. But as we put in machines for assembly, replace with home grown components.

Give 25% stake to DRDO, so they bring in tech that they have anyways...( there will be plenty)

george · Post by **george** » 29 Oct 2020 13:41

darshhan wrote:
george wrote:

Hi Darshan, everything else aside, for a warhead payload of 20 Kgs and drone speed of 300 kph, you are talking of some multi million dollar drones here. Not to mention the weight required to even move this over any significant range.
Lol. This is not my specifications. This is approximate specifications for IAI harop loitering munitions. Kindly check it up. You should probably ask this question to various militaries who are buying this system including India.

Secondly this multi million dollar tag that you are quoting is the price that IAI charges and not the actual cost of production. If you calculate the cost using first principles method, you will be surprised how low the actual cost can be. In this case IAI is laughing all the way to bank.

Swarm will make sense only when you either indigenously mass produce the drones at a low cost or find a low supplier probably some shady firm in Shenzen China

Sure, yes. But the 20 drones attacking a target together came from which operational manual? Harops are for radar installations, infact its primary homing is for such. Sending 20 of them to take one radar seems confusing.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 29 Oct 2020 13:45

there will be drones and there will anti drone systems, CIWS, Lasers yada yada ... with limited resources , the issue is at what cost can u down drones?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 29 Oct 2020 14:15

george wrote:
darshhan wrote:
Lol. This is not my specifications. This is approximate specifications for IAI harop loitering munitions. Kindly check it up. You should probably ask this question to various militaries who are buying this system including India.

Secondly this multi million dollar tag that you are quoting is the price that IAI charges and not the actual cost of production. If you calculate the cost using first principles method, you will be surprised how low the actual cost can be. In this case IAI is laughing all the way to bank.

Swarm will make sense only when you either indigenously mass produce the drones at a low cost or find a low supplier probably some shady firm in Shenzen China
Sure, yes. But the 20 drones attacking a target together came from which operational manual? Harops are for radar installations, infact its primary homing is for such. Sending 20 of them to take one radar seems confusing.

I doubt if you went through the whole page. You probably started off on this post itself. That is why you are unable to comprehend. First of all this post was not on harop or any other specific drone. This was basically to understand how effective the swarm can be under certain set of conditions. I didn't say Harop. I used the phrase harop equivalent drones. Equivalent roughly in terms of performance specifications. Not necessarily the mission set. Nowhere I have implied that target has to be some radar installation. Kindly read the post again.

george · Post by **george** » 29 Oct 2020 14:29

darshhan wrote:
george wrote:
Sure, yes. But the 20 drones attacking a target together came from which operational manual? Harops are for radar installations, infact its primary homing is for such. Sending 20 of them to take one radar seems confusing.
I doubt if you went through the whole page. You probably started off on this post itself. That is why you are unable to comprehend. First of all this post was not on harop or any other specific drone. This was basically to understand how effective the swarm can be under certain set of conditions. I didn't say Harop. I used the phrase harop equivalent drones. Equivalent roughly in terms of performance specifications. Not necessarily the mission set. Nowhere I have implied that target has to be some radar installation. Kindly read the post again.

ok

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 29 Oct 2020 16:12

Noob pooch:
How effective will an APS, like Trophy, be against loitering munitions? It seems to me, that they can protect armored vehicles against UAV launched ATGMs and loitering munitions at a decent price. They are mature systems costing ~300k USD, and will cover ~5M USD armoured vehicles against similarly priced loitering munitions. That seems to push the cost of suicide drone warfare in the other direction. Most importantly, they can be acquired and deployed quickly compared to DEWs.

Question is, how practical are they for protecting non-armoured targets against UAVs.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 29 Oct 2020 17:18

ernest wrote:Noob pooch:
How effective will an APS, like Trophy, be against loitering munitions? It seems to me, that they can protect armored vehicles against UAV launched ATGMs and loitering munitions at a decent price. They are mature systems costing ~300k USD, and will cover ~5M USD armoured vehicles against similarly priced loitering munitions. That seems to push the cost of suicide drone warfare in the other direction. Most importantly, they can be acquired and deployed quickly compared to DEWs.

Question is, how practical are they for protecting non-armoured targets against UAVs.

I have another question related to this. Can APS solutions be used to defend against top attack ATGMs or are they only limited to horizontal threats?

By the way Israelis have tremendous expertise in both domains i.e APS as well as LMs. Wonder what is their experience.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Oct 2020 17:48

tsarkar wrote:
Karan M wrote:Especially if we get some proper new gen fragmentation rounds.
We have this manufactured by OFB under full ToT & License from Swedes for many years -

http://164.100.95.83/products/data/ammunition/mc/14.htm
The 40/70 PFFC IM 212, HE Pre Formed Fragmentation with Tungsten Cubes, has been designed for firing in the 40 mm L70 BOFORS and BREDA 40 L70 guns.
The L40/70 is a very good dual purpose anti aircraft anti surface gun. It just needs a good radar and EO system and a turret with electric drives.

Maybe a L40/70 turret with Atulya and COMPASS on top will be a great land based and sea based CIWS.

https://ofb.gov.in/uploads/unit/0/cag_report.pdf

Page 26

40mm PFFC: Used against aircraft and sea skimmer missile threats. (Fuze: FB-40)
BTW this page has photos of Indian Armed Forces's most preferred munitions.

Yes, agree which is why I said some new gen fragmentation rounds with radio prox fuses or the electronic timers like AHEAD.

Would be great to replace those old L40/L70 with new gen guns like a revolver cannon with a higher rate of fire. Also get the rounds made by someone else than OFB - their manufactured rounds/fuzes had several incidents. Atulya has a backup EO setup (TI/EO + LRF), but broadbasing some EO sights to the guns themselves and adding FCS there too would be great, budget permitting.

I think a lot of the folks discussing in this page about how scary swarms are haven't looked into the fragmentation rounds and capabilities you posted above.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Oct 2020 18:24

darshhan wrote:
tsarkar wrote: CIWS have turrets with super fast electric drives for 360 degree coverage in azimuth and 89 degrees in elevation

https://www.wired.com/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki/

Let me paint a scenario. A swarm of harop equivalent drones, let us say 20 nos. is attacking a target. Let us assume the drone speed is 250-300 kmph. CIWS range is assumed to be anywhere from 3-5 kms. Each drone has a warhead of 20 kgs. Just before entering this range the swarming drones spread out to attack the target from different trajectories. Some will even flank the target totally to come in from opposite side. Some will come in high. Some will come in low. Now can a single CIWS successfully engage all these drones at once considering the fact that all these drones will be attacking simultaneously and CIWS has less than one minute to neutralize all the drones once they enter within its range. 300 kmph speed means that drones are covering 5 kms per minute.

Yes CIWS can rotate to provide 360 degree protection, but can it do it wrt multiple drones all at once.

Check the details - a single IAF CIWS flight is to have some 4 guns and a central radar. For higher risk areas - i.e. bases right next to the border, there will be 2-3 flights. That apart, there will be Akash batteries. 2 of them per squadron. Around that, the MRSAM ring. Then IA AD, which too is getting modernized (they are currently handling IAF base protection too). The IAF is not exactly unaware of the swarm or drone threat. Their key issue is budgetary.

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 30 Oct 2020 09:41

First dedicated seeker manufacturing facility by private sector..

https://telanganatoday.com/vem-technolo ... -hyderabad

Hyderabad: Hyderabad-based aerospace and defence company VEM Technologies has set up an advanced Seeker manufacturing facility in the city, which is touted as the first such facility in India in the private sector, with indigenous technology.

The new facility set up at Hardware Park in Tukkuguda near Srisailam Road with an investment of over Rs 100 crore is spread across 1,25,000 sq ft, with amenities required to carry out the assembly, integration and testing of sub-systems required for radio frequency (RF) and imaging infrared radar (IIR) Seekers under one roof, GP Sarma, senior vice-president, Marketing, VEM Technologies told Telangana Today.

VEM Technologies, had been founded by V Venkata Raju, who is also the chairman and managing director of VEM, with an aim to make the company as a systems engineering company offering solutions to the Armed services making the country self-reliant.

The company has been working on building Seeker manufacturing capabilities since 2013.

Seekers help missiles track and strike the targets with accuracy.

Sarma said, “We are looking to cater to domestic needs for RF Seekers. Very few countries in the world have Seeker manufacturing capabilities. Countries such as the US, Russia, France, Israel and India have the capability to make them. There is however a good scope for exporting IIR Seekers.”

VEM’s Advanced Systems Division, which was recently inaugurated by Dr G Satheesh Reddy, secretary, Department of Defence R&D & chairman-DRDO, has the capacity to manufacture about 60 RF Seekers per month and about 300 IIR Seekers per month.

“The facility will cater to IIR Seekers for various missile programmes. The company can augment the capacities based on the orders,” Sarma added. The company has received a soft financial assistance from Technology Development Board, Department of Science & Technology, Government of India, to a tune of Rs 25 crore for the ‘Development & Commercialisation of RF Seekers’.

Praveen P A, director, Aerospace & Defence, Government of Telangana said, “Despite Covid, Hyderabad defence and aerospace ecosystem is attracting fresh investments and most players are expanding capacities to meet the opportunities presented by indigenisation goals and Aatma Nirbhar Bharat drive in defence production.”

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 30 Oct 2020 11:37

Very interesting..experimental propellant for akash ramjet can extend range by 45 kms.

https://www.strategicfront.org/research ... ry-so-far/

The propellant samples were prepared & sent to DRDL for testing. DRDL stands for Defence Research and Development Laboratory. It is a Missile System laboratory – under the DRDO

The results validate the usability of the propellant in the Ramjet Artillery rounds. Interestingly, DRDL concluded that the propellant can increase the range of the Akash missile from 30 km to 45 km. But that’s a different subject. The Akash missile’s successor Akash NG is almost ready to begin flight tests anyway.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 30 Oct 2020 12:14

Very good write-up!

I am wondering if we are, in parallel, doing R&D on a guided artillery round for our normal ranged shells (not the Ramjet). That would independently validate many systems like miniatuarized navigation that can withstand high G and shock, fins for guidance etc, which can all feed into the Ramjet program.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 30 Oct 2020 12:25

Karan M wrote: Not sure this is relevant anymore. MRSAM deliveries to IAF began in August 2019 and IAI has placed orders for a 1000 MRSAM assemblies on KRAS its Indian partner.

No, sir. Quoting Air Marshal Nambiar below:

The MRSAM has been long delayed. This is an Indo-Israeli programme, which has come out of the Navy LRSAM programme. The IAF has ordered 18 firing units, and we are in the process of getting the first firing unit. We had deployed the first unit during the Uri crisis, but we were not very satisfied with its performance, especially in terms of operationalising it, so we are back to the drawing boards and we believe that the first firing unit will now come up in the next six to eight months.

https://saluteindia.org/military-modern ... air-force/

We have not operationalized even 1 firing unit of IAF MRSAM!

That article is a gem, by the way.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Oct 2020 15:35

Prem Kumar wrote:
Karan M wrote: Not sure this is relevant anymore. MRSAM deliveries to IAF began in August 2019 and IAI has placed orders for a 1000 MRSAM assemblies on KRAS its Indian partner.
No, sir. Quoting Air Marshal Nambiar below:

The MRSAM has been long delayed. This is an Indo-Israeli programme, which has come out of the Navy LRSAM programme. The IAF has ordered 18 firing units, and we are in the process of getting the first firing unit. We had deployed the first unit during the Uri crisis, but we were not very satisfied with its performance, especially in terms of operationalising it, so we are back to the drawing boards and we believe that the first firing unit will now come up in the next six to eight months.
https://saluteindia.org/military-modern ... air-force/

We have not operationalized even 1 firing unit of IAF MRSAM!

That article is a gem, by the way.

I was the one who posted that article on BR, FYI, eons ago. As can be expected, some aspects have been overtaken by events.

Its from August 2018.

https://salute.co.in/military-modernisa ... air-force/

In July 2019 IAI placed bulk orders for missiles on KRAS, clearly indicating production was going ahead.

https://www.indiastrategic.in/2019/07/1 ... air-force/

In May 2020 BDL received orders for MRSAM missile assemblies from IAF again reiterating this is an active program otherwise IAF would wait before placing sub-orders.

https://bharatshakti.in/bharat-dynamics ... for-mrsam/

Finally, IAF note to press in December 2019.
https://mobile.twitter.com/reviewvayu/s ... 4412995584

IAF SAM contracts in 2019:
1. Contract for 5 Squadrons of Long Range SAM S-400. Induction mid 2020 onwards
2. IAF procuring 18 Squadrons of MRSAM jointly dev by DRDO/IAI. Induction from early 2020 onwards
3. Contract for 7 additional Akash Squadrons. Induction early 2021 onwards

Its not 18 squadrons of MRSAM but 18 firing units i.e. batteries. These mean 9 squadrons.

In short, let's not assume MRSAM is not already in service. That hyped up news about a SAM system to the Ladakh theater could have well been a re-engineered MRSAM, induction delayed by the CV imbroglio.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... india.html

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 30 Oct 2020 16:23

Karan M wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:
No, sir. Quoting Air Marshal Nambiar below:

https://saluteindia.org/military-modern ... air-force/

We have not operationalized even 1 firing unit of IAF MRSAM!

That article is a gem, by the way.
I was the one who posted that article on BR, FYI, eons ago. As can be expected, some aspects have been overtaken by events.

Its from August 2018.

https://salute.co.in/military-modernisa ... air-force/

In July 2019 IAI placed bulk orders for missiles on KRAS, clearly indicating production was going ahead.

https://www.indiastrategic.in/2019/07/1 ... air-force/

In May 2020 BDL received orders for MRSAM missile assemblies from IAF again reiterating this is an active program otherwise IAF would wait before placing sub-orders.

https://bharatshakti.in/bharat-dynamics ... for-mrsam/

Finally, IAF note to press in December 2019.
https://mobile.twitter.com/reviewvayu/s ... 4412995584

IAF SAM contracts in 2019:
1. Contract for 5 Squadrons of Long Range SAM S-400. Induction mid 2020 onwards
2. IAF procuring 18 Squadrons of MRSAM jointly dev by DRDO/IAI. Induction from early 2020 onwards
3. Contract for 7 additional Akash Squadrons. Induction early 2021 onwards
In short, let's not assume MRSAM is not already in service. That hyped up news about a SAM system to the Ladakh theater could have well been a re-engineered MRSAM, induction delayed by the CV imbroglio.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... india.html

Finally who is supposed to supply the MRSAM? BDL or KRAS. Or will it be a split order ?

Some time back indeed there were rumors going on well known osint twitter handles which hinted on MRSAM induction in Ladakh.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Oct 2020 17:19

As far as I remember, BEL is the lead integrator, project coordinator for the IAF and IN taking over that position from the Israelis to comply with make in India, and certifies, integrates the overall setup, layout. BDL makes the missiles and subassemblies as does KRAS while Tata provides the C3I cabins for the IAF.
BDL is the lead integrator and supplier for the Army. But radars and other items will come from BEL, which in the IA MRSAMs case includes local assembly/TOT of the radars.