Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Sep 2020 12:23

That is where I think we are getting it wrong, IAF did a very smart thing in upgrading Mig-21 Bis platforms to MIg-21- Bisons- this has given time for the Tejas to mature, while adding Su30 MKI, adding some for Mig-29, adding more teeth to the Mig 29 and M-2000 fleet, getting rafales, upgrading Jags, getting the capable Tejas.

15 years back IAF had lot Mig 21 variants, Mig-23, Mig-27 etc which have been gotten rid of with more capable plaftforms.

PAF had got rid of F-7, F-6, Completely and probably replace its remainign F-7 PG and Mirage-3 Mirage 5 with JF-17. JF-17 may be more capable than these, as of today as shown on 27-Feb-19, Mirage 5 Rose upgraded ones can fire the South African H-4 PGM's which the JF-17 lacked.

If PAF had say gone in more 2nd hand block 15 upgraded to Block 50 standards of F-16, Gripen , they could theoretically have had lesser aircraft but more capability.

The problem is JF-17 is over hyped like comparing a local Paki screwdrivergiri with the Indian designed and Tested LCA program. We have much higher input in our Su-30 MKI than the Pakis on JF-17 = all parts come from China. Stuff like ACG 400 carrier killer are more of propaganda than reality.

There are no carriage and separation tests of JF-17 firing PL-12 missiles, it did not use any PGM or BVR missile on 27-Feb-19 when PAF wasted limited precious Amraams.

Now suddenly on BRF without objective analysis for an aircraft which yet to complete a loop is being talked off as super cruising and Rafale killer with PL-15. That gets the goat.

There needs to objective discussion away from the propaganda on the JF-17

1. Being an all metal construction what is real weight
2. on RD-93 engines with 2250KG internal fuel what could be its theoretical range
3. where are its Air to Air refueling tests
4. what are its real weapons, where are its tests.

We should not underestimate it but should also not overestimate it - flagellate about the IAF which some posters are doing, put ourselves under too much pressure make wrong decisions and just wholesale blame the IAF.

For example, if IAF is short conflicts focuses on taking out PAF AEW, F-16's it could be a more beneficial strategy than rather oh lets save our Metoer's for JF-17's

nam · Post by **nam** » 15 Sep 2020 13:07

3rd confirmed JF17 from Tail Chopper sqd goes down. Probably there are more, PAF hides them. When there is no mention of the type of aircraft involved, you know it is either JF17 or F16. There was fighter crash landed in 2019 in one of the airport..PAF was quiet about it.

Today's comment from PAF did not mention the type..

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Sep 2020 17:24

nam wrote:3rd confirmed JF17 from Tail Chopper sqd goes down. Probably there are more, PAF hides them. When there is no mention of the type of aircraft involved, you know it is either JF17 or F16. There was fighter crash landed in 2019 in one of the airport..PAF was quiet about it.

Today's comment from PAF did not mention the type..

Yup, confirmed that it's a JF-17 that crashed. PAF isn't revealing the type, but it has been confirmed on Paki forums.

As you mentioned, this is the 3rd reported crash of a JF-17. There could've been more, but the PAF hides details.

chola · Post by **chola** » 15 Sep 2020 17:36

Yup, a Tail Chopper with tail chopped off:

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Sep 2020 17:55

Crashes happen in all Airforces and all aircraft, military aviation by its nature is very risky, but PLAAF and PAf- they are very propaganda heavy, Are they saying this 3rd crash of JF-17 in PAf squadron 14 Tail choppers?- they have adopted JF-17 only in 2017 if I am right.

Public ally there have atleast 3 more crashes of JF-17 over the last 10 years.

Rohit_K · Post by **Rohit_K** » 16 Sep 2020 02:05

Martin Baker's SM/marketing is on point. Confirms JF-17 crash:

https://twitter.com/MB_EjectEject/statu ... 7138960384

D.Mahesh · Post by **D.Mahesh** » 16 Sep 2020 06:32

We sometimes take the JF-17 too lightly I think. Regardless of its shortcomings, it does provide the pakis with a cost-effective way to get several squadrons of BVR capable fighters which they were severely short of earlier. More importantly these are sanction proof unlike their F-16's and will continue to receive updates from the Chinese without the pakis breaking the bank.

It's not smart to over hype a laggard. Wastes time & prevents focusing on more important stuff. Rambha has been thru heckuva' lot of development. 2xRambha neutered 8xViper firing all their AMRAAM. V.v.non-trivial. JF-17 is not in the game for now. But with the substantial numbers in which it's fielded it's enough of a weapon to be taken seriously. Beyond that dhoti-shivering serves no purpose and is stupid

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Sep 2020 06:38

Rohit_K wrote:Martin Baker's SM/marketing is on point. Confirms JF-17 crash:

https://twitter.com/MB_EjectEject/statu ... 7138960384

Wow....amazingly alert marketing team out there!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Sep 2020 11:28

The JF-17 that crashed. Tail number 17-241

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 16 Sep 2020 14:28

In the first 2 crashes of JF-17 the ejection seats did not work? Were they Chinese?

Rohit_K · Post by **Rohit_K** » 16 Sep 2020 23:10

The .001% of level-headed packees will soon be locked up. Like the blasphemy law, easy way to settle scores:

NA passes FATF-related bill on terror financing
https://www.dawn.com/news/1579927/na-pa ... -financing

ISLAMABAD: The National Assembly on Tuesday passed a Financial Action Task Force-related bill, the Anti-Terrorism Act (amendment) Bill, 2020, while another bill was laid in the house that suggested punishment of up to two years, or up to Rs500,000 fine or both for “maligning” armed forces of the country and their personnel.

In a related development, President Dr Arif Alvi summoned a joint sitting of parliament on Wednesday (today) apparently to get the FATF-related legislation passed that was blocked by the opposition in the Senate last month, sources said. However, no official notification was issued in this regard till the filing of this story.

According to the ATA (amendment) Bill, 2020, the investigating officer, with the permission of the court, can conduct covert operations to detect terrorism funding, track communications and computer system by applying latest technologies in 60 days. Written requests would be made to the court for extension in investigation and the court may extend the period for another 60 days.

The current law will not contradict any other law and the federal government will strengthen the procedure and formulate rules for the implementation of orders.The bill said funding for terrorism was a major obstacle in the country’s development and a source of disgrace to it. Terrorism funding was benefiting those elements which were not only a threat to internal and external peace of the country but also its allies, the bill said.

“The main purpose of introducing this bill is to enable law enforcement agencies to eradicate these curses by adopting certain preventive techniques with the empowered assistance of the courts of law.”

The Criminal Law (amendment) Act Bill, 2020 was laid in the National Assembly to amend the Pakistan Penal Code, 1860, and the Code of Criminal Procedure, 1898, that suggested punishment to those who would malign armed forces and their personnel. This may be called the Criminal Law (Amendment) Act, 2020.

In Pakistan Penal Code, 1860, Section 500A is inserted which said: “Whosoever, intentionally ridicules, brings into disrepute or defames the armed forces of Pakistan or a member thereof, he shall be guilty of an offence punishable with imprisonment for a term which may extend to two years or with a fine up to Rs500,000 or both.”

D.Mahesh · Post by **D.Mahesh** » 19 Sep 2020 06:29

nachiket wrote:
Aditya_V wrote: All aircraft go through carriage, drop tests and then seperation tests before firing. Given the way it is being marketed heavily there are none for the the JF-17.

2CCM/ 2BVR are not much of a payload. where are the SD-10/PL-12 separation tests? The aircraft also take off in a very shallow angle from Skardu, look at our aircraft from Leh
Those tests happen in China, not in pakiland. I haven't seen separation trials videos for the J-10 either. The Chinese only release propaganda videos. The pakis take what they get from the Chinese after they are done testing, they don't do trials themselves. They wouldn't know what to do if something fails anyway.

2CCM+2BVR+2 drop tanks is be the standard CAP/air-defence config for the LCA as well.

We sometimes take the JF-17 too lightly I think. Regardless of its shortcomings, it does provide the pakis with a cost-effective way to get several squadrons of BVR capable fighters which they were severely short of earlier. More importantly these are sanction proof unlike their F-16's and will continue to receive updates from the Chinese without the pakis breaking the bank.

Just like you shouldn't take something too lightly, you shouldn't take anything too heavily either - if you do, you're working against the wrong problem.

Fizzle's Eph-Solah with Amraams been tried out for all it's worth - fricking 6 x Amraams = TSPARs.200 crore.

BVR 1st-to-look-1st-to-kill works if you're NATO with JSTARS+AWACS swarming all over with Live Sat Feed + Sec.Coun.VETO

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 23 Sep 2020 01:15

Baap baap hota hai

Aur beta beta.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 23 Sep 2020 01:26

I also loved the DGISPR productions present VT-4 feature film.
Especially because the intro starts with the tank going backwards (true to doctrine and sop)

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 24 Sep 2020 03:01

Is there any analysis here on the new paki tank aquired from China - VT4

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 24 Sep 2020 23:17

Is the side skirt coming off in the photo? does anyone have a full image?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 24 Sep 2020 23:52

Image available at this link

nam · Post by **nam** » 25 Sep 2020 01:26

Looks like Pak will now import all their weapon types from China. Makes it easier for us to focus on one source.

However it also means that Pak will not be technology deficient and can induct modern kit at regular intervals. We will be stuck with inducting in numbers.

Got to have a roadmap of tranche upgrades, instead of inducting 1400 T90 of the same types, with no enhancement for past 20 years.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 25 Sep 2020 04:31

tsarkar wrote:Is the side skirt coming off in the photo? does anyone have a full image?

Sir that is to increase the aerodynamic efficiency of the tank. It’s Chinese so it can also fly and the skirt swirls around providing lift!!

bharathp · Post by **bharathp** » 25 Sep 2020 06:58

nam wrote:Looks like Pak will now import all their weapon types from China. Makes it easier for us to focus on one source.

However it also means that Pak will not be technology deficient and can induct modern kit at regular intervals. We will be stuck with inducting in numbers.

Got to have a roadmap of tranche upgrades, instead of inducting 1400 T90 of the same types, with no enhancement for past 20 years.

Pak is still gtting "export variants" of the chinese weapons.
one thing that this constant chinese prodding has done to Indian establishment is - it removed focus of our Armed forces from Pak to China.

earlier we used to concentrate on Pak and hope that we are greater than Pak (in terms of capabilities + numbers) and enough to hold china.
now, we are forced and want to be atleast equal to china, which will leave Pak in dust.

however, China sending arms in numbers to Pak is like going to get Pak economy even lower and chinese economy along with it. how many arms can they sell when finally there is no money?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 25 Sep 2020 14:08

ks_sachin wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Is the side skirt coming off in the photo? does anyone have a full image?
Sir that is to increase the aerodynamic efficiency of the tank. It’s Chinese so it can also fly and the skirt swirls around providing lift!!

for some reason the link is coming as a security threat by my anti virus, so not opening it.

If the skirt is just rubber & plastic to keep dirt out of running gear, then swirling is fine.

However other countries use metal plates that in addition to keeping dirt out, protects the running gear from small arms fire

Even others use spaced armour or ERA blocks to protect the running gear from anti tank weaponry

If they are using rubber skirts, then it reflects poor power to weight ratio.

Bangladeshi Chinese tanks use rubber/plastic skirts for this reason

Arjun or T-90 skirts dont fly

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Sep 2020 14:13

Its a Chinese export to Pakistanis, Virus, Bacteria and all unwanted stuff will be associated with it.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Sep 2020 18:07

As per Sameer Joshi 2 M-2000 held 12 JF-17s and none fired a SD 12 missile.

So atleast until 27 Feb 19 JF 19 of which more than 100 were inducted did have PGM or BVR capability

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 7777030144

The reason wy #PAF F16s were desperate to keep @IAF_MCC Mirages separated from the F16 vs Su30MKI fight during #SwiftRetort. And yes, the Mirages held their fire against the 12 JF17s, who were never a threat or tried anything funny. Pros don’t waste AAMs, nor claim false kills Winking face
Quote Tweet

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 07 Oct 2020 22:10

Commies are deeply invested in enhancing the capabilities of the Paki Navy. Here is ex Bahria foundation lake club chief salesman cum Navy Chief on the path ahead:
https://youtu.be/vRKYGrCk99k?t=865

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 07 Oct 2020 22:15

The Fizzleya preparing for swarm SAAW attack:

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Oct 2020 22:18

PN has greatly expanded since ~2000, but especially in last approx 10 years. The expansion is not simply in terms of fleet size, but also the in terms of capabilities and basing. From being restricted to Karachi now they are spread out over 2-3 naval stations. There are a number capabilities such as shore based missiles, AEW coverage, new MPAs, UAVs, brand new ships vs second hand, and a larger Maritime Security Agency as well.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Oct 2020 22:44

Pakistan Navy selects Embraer Lineage 1000E as new MPA: The Sea Sultan
https://pakstrategic.com/2020/10/27/pak ... ea-sultan/
27 Oct 2020

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Oct 2020 22:47

Pakistan Navy’s RAS ATR-72 Sea Eagle MPA
https://pakstrategic.com/2020/10/21/pak ... eagle-mpa/
21 Oct 2020

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Oct 2020 22:47

Keel Laying Ceremony of Pakistan Navy’s 3rd MILGEM Class Corvette at KS&EW Shipyard
https://pakstrategic.com/2020/10/26/kee ... -shipyard/
26 Oct 2020

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Oct 2020 22:49

Exclusive on Yarmook Class Corvette of Pakistan Navy
https://pakstrategic.com/2020/06/18/exc ... stan-navy/
18 June 2020

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 29 Oct 2020 22:58

MeshaVishwas wrote:The Fizzleya preparing for swarm SAAW attack:

A key goal of the IAF in the upcoming Indo-Pak war should be both destruction of technical hardware such as planes, AWACS, radars etc. as well as technical manpower that is used to produce and maintain these. The next war should be so fierce, that PakMil is never again able to stand up.

nam · Post by **nam** » 29 Oct 2020 23:08

You have to give it to the Paks. They have used their resources well. Cheap Chini kit has allowed Pak to expand PAF & PN quite a bit.

PN must be getting money from the Chini for the expansion. Subs, surface ships, jet ASW birds. Lot of money is been pumped.

I think PA loosen it's grip on the purse string, allowing some cash to other services. PA is only now getting mounted artillery and tanks.

Every increase in their numbers will tie down our force in trying to deal with them.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 30 Oct 2020 00:16

sudeepj wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:The Fizzleya preparing for swarm SAAW attack:
A key goal of the IAF in the upcoming Indo-Pak war should be both destruction of technical hardware such as planes, AWACS, radars etc. as well as technical manpower that is used to produce and maintain these. The next war should be so fierce, that PakMil is never again able to stand up.

Saar, we need more asymmetric tools.
I liked it the last time they squealed when a "alleged" cyber attack by RajnikanthGoldstein targeted their military.(August?)
Conventionally I want the Bakis to spend more.
More Ayf Solah, more Al "2Stroke" Khalids, more "Karachi Affair" Agostas.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Oct 2020 05:31

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 49697?s=20 ---> The severe issues that plague the MESMA AIP system (onboard Pak Agosta 90B subs); no wonder Indian Navy did not want MESMA AIP onboard it's own Scorpenes:

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Oct 2020 07:16

Rakesh wrote:Keel Laying Ceremony of Pakistan Navy’s 3rd MILGEM Class Corvette at KS&EW Shipyard
https://pakstrategic.com/2020/10/26/kee ... -shipyard/
26 Oct 2020

Quite frankly, there is no real space for acquisition or proper Fire control radars, and then fit the 2 ASHM's , also no SAM/CIWS. Yes Pakis could eventually fit 2 ASHM with guidance provided by another platform, till then it equivalent of ICG Vikram class or lower.

Sure Pakis have expanded capabilities and we should map thier new capabilities and prepare for it, but sometimes posters put down Indian armed forces which is not required. Many Pak solutions are good in paper and propaganda wars but practically dont work out.

Another point like Agosta, it will be screwdrivergiri at Karachi.

chola · Post by **chola** » 31 Oct 2020 12:49

The MILGEM Ada class of the Turks are fitted with 8 x Harpoons and a Thales search/FC radar system. Paki MILGEMs are supposed to incorporate a chini 16-cell VLS system and C-802 AShMs. Not a coast guard loadout by any measure.

The main future threat from the PN will come from the eight 2.3K tons S20 AIP subs and four 4K 054A frigates with 32-cell UVLS (SAM/ASu) and 8 AShMs.

I agree with Nam ji. The Pukes have spent their budget fairly well.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 31 Oct 2020 14:58

Rakesh wrote:Pakistan Navy selects Embraer Lineage 1000E as new MPA: The Sea Sultan
https://pakstrategic.com/2020/10/27/pak ... ea-sultan/

Rakesh ji any further info on this.... i tried to use g chacha but seems info is very sketchy. This would be an impressive addition to the PN mpa fleet. However i cannot imagine this to be cheap with total cost over a hundie mill plus including cost of sensors, mods required, testing etc. Also this would have more than enough reserve power for a decent kit. I just cant figure out how are they expecting to shello out nearly a billion plus dollars for thus acquisition.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 31 Oct 2020 14:59

sum wrote:
Rohit_K wrote:Martin Baker's SM/marketing is on point. Confirms JF-17 crash:

https://twitter.com/MB_EjectEject/statu ... 7138960384
Wow....amazingly alert marketing team out there!

nothing great about their marketing

MB ejections are reported to the company which hands out a tie to the pilot if (s)he is alive after the fact, making them members of The 'Caterpillar Club' - the precursor to the 'Martin Baker Ejection Tie Club'.

EJECTION TIE CLUB

Here at Martin-Baker, we run an exclusive club that unifies all pilots whose lives we’ve helped save: life membership of the Ejection Tie Club is confined solely to those who have emergency ejected from an aircraft using a Martin-Baker ejection seat, which has thereby saved their life.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Nov 2020 04:29

andy B wrote:Rakesh ji any further info on this.... i tried to use g chacha but seems info is very sketchy. This would be an impressive addition to the PN mpa fleet. However i cannot imagine this to be cheap with total cost over a hundie mill plus including cost of sensors, mods required, testing etc. Also this would have more than enough reserve power for a decent kit. I just cant figure out how are they expecting to shell out nearly a billion plus dollars for thus acquisition.

Please don't call me ji

I found this....FWIW. If the deal goes through...money will come from China likely, in the form of loan...which they will be unable to repay. That in turn will result in more of their sovereignty in the hands of the Chinese.

ANALYSIS: PAKISTAN NAVY’S NEW LRMPA PROJECT
https://quwa.org/2020/10/18/analysis-pa ... project-2/
18 Oct 2020

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 01 Nov 2020 15:23

Rakesh wrote: Please don't call me ji

I found this....FWIW. If the deal goes through...money will come from China likely, in the form of loan...which they will be unable to repay. That in turn will result in more of their sovereignty in the hands of the Chinese.

ANALYSIS: PAKISTAN NAVY’S NEW LRMPA PROJECT
https://quwa.org/2020/10/18/analysis-pa ... project-2/
18 Oct 2020

Many thanks Rakesh i couldnt find it when i searched.

Yeah most probably lizard will be furnishing the money for these. The pn mpa fleet has certainly seen a resurgence these lasr years and these would be bringing it up to an entirely new capability level.

I would imagine they will try and sling the turkish som or some equivalent lizard ashm with the kit being similar to the ATR 72 kit.

Still i feel i don't reckon they can afford 10 of these. These are large platforms and the article noted the lineage 1000 only produced 28 airframes. Will be very interesting to see how this program proceeds.