India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Nov 2020 05:17

We have had for many decades now Antarctic expeditions,where cold weather gear and habitation has been used.
What is reqd. is modular Himalayan habitation that can be erected in a jiffy. Some years ago a co. in H'bad ,Nagarjuna I think, developed a multi-terrain habitat for disasters which was used in the aftermath of the Latur earthquake.Lightweight and cheap, but could last for years.Our troops should live in such habitats instead of tents as some are alleging. These modular units with the required insulation could be transported by our exg. helicopters to any remote location and erected by the troops themselves.Provision for other mod-con devices would also be possible.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 02 Nov 2020 10:04

phillip...there are igloo type lightweight habitat which is the most often used habitat. i guess with sudden influx of so many troops finding enough igloos is not easy so the tents. but igloos will replace tents if deployment continues.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 02 Nov 2020 10:17

pankajs wrote:We did not want 2 active borders.

.............

Forget China, even with Bakistan, till very recently, India was willing to live with the current LOC provided there peace at the LOC and no terrorism push into J&K/India. Modi's India might still be willing to live with the LOC for all we know.

I am surprised that people are surprised.

Agreed. MAD's strategy seems to be: "We don't want to initiate conflict, try to recapture lost territories or break-up $hitistan, but will respond vigorously if we are attacked first. So, focus on the economy, while maintaining a robust defense"

Both Pakis & Chinese got a taste of this strategy. They thought that "non-offense" = "meekness" (like it was during the UPA era). They both miscalculated.

sreerudra · Post by **sreerudra** » 02 Nov 2020 11:30

Davidrock wrote:If Pakistani nukes are removed, we will be in a much better position to capture GB. However, we need to prepare the target before attacking it.
Their freedom movement is still in nascent stage.

Sir ji, grapevine stories tell us that Pak nukes have already been moved after the Balkot strike.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 02 Nov 2020 19:37

pankajs wrote:We did not want 2 active borders.

Till the latest Chinese gambit on the LAC, Modi's India was satisfied with status quo on the "altered" LAC that IT has inherited in 2014!!! Is that a surprise? Not really. Modi's India and every GOI before it wanted to avoid having to confront China on the Land.

Even now India is willing to live with pre- March/April status quo and that status quo will NOT be the 1962 status quo but an "altered" version of the 1962 LAC. That again is not a surprise.

Forget China, even with Bakistan, till very recently, India was willing to live with the current LOC provided there peace at the LOC and no terrorism push into J&K/India. Modi's India might still be willing to live with the LOC for all we know.

I am surprised that people are surprised.

https://twitter.com/orfonline/status/13 ... 0113238017

Chinese aggression has made it impossible for New Delhi to continue with its usual ‘engagement where possible’ refrain, because there are hardly any areas where engagement seems possible between the two Asian neighbours, says Harsh Pant:

In other words .. "engagement where possible" was the "normal" template adopted by Modi's GOI and the others who came before it TILL the Chinese / Rafool / CON-Media made it impossible to continue with that!

sreerudra · Post by **sreerudra** » 02 Nov 2020 21:14

pankajs wrote:
pankajs wrote:We did not want 2 active borders.

Till the latest Chinese gambit on the LAC, Modi's India was satisfied with status quo on the "altered" LAC that IT has inherited in 2014!!! Is that a surprise? Not really. Modi's India and every GOI before it wanted to avoid having to confront China on the Land.

Even now India is willing to live with pre- March/April status quo and that status quo will NOT be the 1962 status quo but an "altered" version of the 1962 LAC. That again is not a surprise.

Forget China, even with Bakistan, till very recently, India was willing to live with the current LOC provided there peace at the LOC and no terrorism push into J&K/India. Modi's India might still be willing to live with the LOC for all we know.

I am surprised that people are surprised.
https://twitter.com/orfonline/status/13 ... 0113238017
Chinese aggression has made it impossible for New Delhi to continue with its usual ‘engagement where possible’ refrain, because there are hardly any areas where engagement seems possible between the two Asian neighbours, says Harsh Pant:
In other words .. "engagement where possible" was the "normal" template adopted by Modi's GOI and the others who came before it TILL the Chinese / Rafool / CON-Media made it impossible to continue with that!

It is entire possible that Xee threatened India with another virus? The fact of the matter is no one is prepared for this type of warfare as no one is expecting bio-war will not be used on the masses. But now, this is a change in the status quo for the entire world. IMO, it is very easy to get frustrated to call Modi to follow NAM type stuff etc. It is hard to prepare for all options on the table and stand up to it.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Nov 2020 01:09

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 6208007169

Its 1st November. For the military deployed in Ladakh, winter has officially begun although temperatures had already started plummeting below zero last fortnight when I was there. It is also three weeks since the last round of Corps Commanders' talks were held.
It is now certain that troops from both sides will sit through the harsh winter facing off each other. An unprecedented situation in the history of India-China boundary dispute although it must be remembered that in 1962, China's final offensive took place on 20th November
Indian troops (under 14 Corps) are used to being deployed in forward posts at super high altitudes through harshest of winter months for years. For the PLA troops however, this will be a first. How the Chinese cope with the experience will also play into PLA's long-term plans
There is no denying the scale and size of deployment is far bigger than anything seen on the LAC ever. So what next? China has indicated it wants another round of Corps Commander-level negotiations. India's reply: tell us a date and we will respond if it suits our schedule
India has made it clear it will require at least 72 to 96 hours notice to join the talks. One view in the Indian establishment is: Beijing will not propose a date until the result of the US Presidential election is clear. Which would mean 4th November at the earliest.
Is any breakthrough expected? The Indian establishment is not holding its breath. Instead, India has hardened the LAC deployment as series of my reports last week (and the forthcoming video stories) after touring some of the forward areas in Ladakh, make it amply clear.
Comfortable living facilities, ample and nutritious food, proper clothing for extreme cold conditions and fuel for all the needs, is adequately stocked and supplied. The well-coordinated logistics operation between the Indian Army and Air Force has shown peak synergy
India is ready for any eventuality. Most common Q: Will there be a short war this winter? Or will both sides sustain themselves through these difficult months and then get ready for a clash in the summer? No one can predict and no one should. All we can do is to wait and watch

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 03 Nov 2020 01:32

Going by what Xitler has done so far, if Covid induces a lockdown in India, he will almost certainly try something.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Nov 2020 02:50

AdityaM wrote:All talk here of India doing anything in GB is the same hot air as the talk of India marching into Lhasa in the starting days of this thread. You can't have such grand plans when you are making emergency purchases of rifles and clothing to fulfill basic needs.

Uri & Balakot had set the bar for Indian response in the event of pak terror misadventure. And pakis have probably paused on account of that.
Chinese actions have ensured that India may no longer have a viable Uri/balakot kind of response ready for future Paki mischief. The escalation matrix now to such a response is no longer as predictable or manageable.

While I agree that the expectation of taking GB or Aksai Chin is ridiculous considering ground realities, your second assertion is equally wrong. Our force posture on the LoC has not been weakened even one bit by the strengthening of forces on the LAC. The capability for surgical strikes or Balakot style operations still exists as is the capacity to manage the threat of escalation. If the pakis suspected this even slightly, we would have been dealing with a very hot LoC by now.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 03 Nov 2020 06:13

pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 6208007169
Its 1st November. For the military deployed in Ladakh, winter has officially begun although temperatures had already started plummeting below zero last fortnight when I was there. It is also three weeks since the last round of Corps Commanders' talks were held.

It is now certain that troops from both sides will sit through the harsh winter facing off each other. An unprecedented situation in the history of India-China boundary dispute although it must be remembered that in 1962, China's final offensive took place on 20th November

Indian troops (under 14 Corps) are used to being deployed in forward posts at super high altitudes through harshest of winter months for years. For the PLA troops however, this will be a first. How the Chinese cope with the experience will also play into PLA's long-term plans

There is no denying the scale and size of deployment is far bigger than anything seen on the LAC ever. So what next? China has indicated it wants another round of Corps Commander-level negotiations. India's reply: tell us a date and we will respond if it suits our schedule

India has made it clear it will require at least 72 to 96 hours notice to join the talks. One view in the Indian establishment is: Beijing will not propose a date until the result of the US Presidential election is clear. Which would mean 4th November at the earliest.

Is any breakthrough expected? The Indian establishment is not holding its breath. Instead, India has hardened the LAC deployment as series of my reports last week (and the forthcoming video stories) after touring some of the forward areas in Ladakh, make it amply clear.

Comfortable living facilities, ample and nutritious food, proper clothing for extreme cold conditions and fuel for all the needs, is adequately stocked and supplied. The well-coordinated logistics operation between the Indian Army and Air Force has shown peak synergy

India is ready for any eventuality. Most common Q: Will there be a short war this winter? Or will both sides sustain themselves through these difficult months and then get ready for a clash in the summer? No one can predict and no one should. All we can do is to wait and watch

How long will the Manali - Leh road be open? If the Chinese plan to attack, expect them to do so, if the road is closed. I do however suspect they will not take a chance to confront the IAF.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 03 Nov 2020 11:05

nachiket wrote:
AdityaM wrote:All talk here of India doing anything in GB is the same hot air as the talk of India marching into Lhasa in the starting days of this thread. You can't have such grand plans when you are making emergency purchases of rifles and clothing to fulfill basic needs.

Uri & Balakot had set the bar for Indian response in the event of pak terror misadventure. And pakis have probably paused on account of that.
Chinese actions have ensured that India may no longer have a viable Uri/balakot kind of response ready for future Paki mischief. The escalation matrix now to such a response is no longer as predictable or manageable.
While I agree that the expectation of taking GB or Aksai Chin is ridiculous considering ground realities, your second assertion is equally wrong. Our force posture on the LoC has not been weakened even one bit by the strengthening of forces on the LAC. The capability for surgical strikes or Balakot style operations still exists as is the capacity to manage the threat of escalation. If the pakis suspected this even slightly, we would have been dealing with a very hot LoC by now.

True that

In fact a large force deployment on LAC would worry pakis more as such forces would be acclimatized and can easily be used to switch focus to the pakis of necessary.

kumarn · Post by **kumarn** » 03 Nov 2020 13:53

https://m.hindustantimes.com/world-news ... J_amp.html

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Nov 2020 14:31

The Chinis have been pushing the next round of talks to after US election. Looks like next Chini action will be determined by the result of US election.

More than the land grab, there are two things Chini expect out of us. We should not be in US camp and no large scale deployment from us on LAC.

I think the Chinis perceive a Biden administration will not be totally anti-China. Implies Biden would not be keen to have India in a anti-China group.

To achieve the second objective, the Chinis would want a 62 style, localized war, where India kept accepting Chini incursion and never bothered to recapture the lost ground.

A Biden win might give the Chinis an opportunity to carry out a military action.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Nov 2020 15:12

nam wrote:The Chinis have been pushing the next round of talks to after US election. Looks like next Chini action will be determined by the result of US election.

More than the land grab, there are two things Chini expect out of us. We should not be in US camp and no large scale deployment from us on LAC.

I think the Chinis perceive a Biden administration will not be totally anti-China. Implies Biden would not be keen to have India in a anti-China group.

To achieve the second objective, the Chinis would want a 62 style, localized war, where India kept accepting Chini incursion and never bothered to recapture the lost ground.

A Biden win might give the Chinis an opportunity to carry out a military action.

Not really. China expects Biden to be less strident than Trump and also willing to strike a "win win" bargain. Biden WILL want India to be part of QUAD, etc counter to China but the QUAD momentum itself might get tempered by a Biden led US government.

End result might appear similar but the path to the end is very different and hence noteworthy.

Firstly, A 62 style localized war WILL prompt India to do large scale deployment at the LAC and force China to do the same. 2020 is NOT 1962.
Secondly, IFF China really wanted to launch a 1962 style punch at India the best time was when they initiated the border confrontation and when India was caught by surprise and hence less prepared while the element of surprise as well as preparation would have favored the Chinese.
Thirdly, It has been reported, I myself has posted the report, that India WAS in the process of increasing its deployment along the LAC even before this incident occurred. Modi's GOI was/is aware of what is coming down the line and was readying both the Infra and the Men for such an eventuality though it did think it still had time.

That India-China might still go for a localized war at the border does not invalidate the above 3 points. The initial Chinese game was of intimidation, showing up Modi/India as a fuss infront of a Global audience and getting compliance on its demands without having to fight a war. All that is now out of the window. To that extent, the Chinese gambit has been defeated.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 03 Nov 2020 17:31

https://www.rediff.com/news/report/us-s ... 201103.htm
India receives extreme cold weather clothing from America for troops deployed on China border
By Ajit K Dubey, November 03, 2020
In a major boost to India's preparedness to take on the Chinese on the Line of Actual Control, the Indian Army has received the initial consignment of extreme cold weather clothing from the USA for its troops deployed on the China border.
"An initial lot of extreme cold weather clothing from the American defence forces have been received and are being used by our troops there," government sources said. The sources said that the Indian Army maintains a stock of 60,000 of these extreme cold weather clothing sets for troops deployed in entire Ladakh including both western fronts in Siachen and Eastern Ladakh sector. This year, there was an additional requirement of around 30,000 of these sets as close to 90,000 troops are deployed in the region in view of the aggression by the People's Liberation Army along the LAC. The emergency acquisition of the extreme cold weather clothing will help the Indian Army troops to get through the harsh winters in the Ladakh sector.
.....
Gautam

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 03 Nov 2020 20:39

I had the chance to see a Chinook on ground from not too far away last month and fly above my head few times. Maybe it was the distance, but it seemed smaller than I expected. Multiple choppers are flying very frequent missions which speaks a lot about it's capability and serviceability.

Also noticed Indian jets flying very close to high Himalayan peaks during night. So much still going on.

Added later: Someone on last page claimed that there's no high altitude clothing and travel culture in India because guides don't have guns. As someone who does this kind of thing for work and pleasure I can only

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Nov 2020 03:28

if the ameriki election bedlam continues through the better part of november, then we should be extra-vigilant on the LAC, and at all the friction points that interest hans/pakis.

the hans could be quietly waiting for something like this to distract both India as well as the US before they sneak up to alter the LAC geography on the border.

wig · Post by **wig** » 05 Nov 2020 10:47

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/j-k/b ... mmu-166030

BSF unearths tunnel along India-Pakistan border in Jammu

They said the tunnel has been found in the Samba sector and a team of senior officers of the border guarding force has reached the spot for analysis.

The force had detected a similar structure that originated from the Pakistan side, in the same area in August.

It then said 8-10 plastic sandbags stuffed in the tunnel’s mouth were found that had “Pakistani markings” on them.

wig · Post by **wig** » 05 Nov 2020 10:48

https://www.dailyexcelsior.com/bsf-unea ... er-tunnel/

this fresh tunnel is in Arnia sector

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 Nov 2020 17:30

wig wrote:https://www.dailyexcelsior.com/bsf-unea ... er-tunnel/

this fresh tunnel is in Arnia sector

A pig like the ones used in undersea pipelines, but with explosives must crawl through and explode at the other end.

Sonugn · Post by **Sonugn** » 05 Nov 2020 18:58

China temporarily suspends Entry by Foreign Nationals in India into China holding Valid Vizas ,even Residence permit , except Diplomatic & C visas

Reason they say is Covid

Interesting timing.

RajaRudra · Post by **RajaRudra** » 05 Nov 2020 18:58

wig wrote:https://www.dailyexcelsior.com/bsf-unea ... er-tunnel/

this fresh tunnel is in Arnia sector

May be, we should have silently kept watch on the tunnel head and neutralize the zombies coming out of it.

Or

We should send some some crawlers(with explosives) and find the origin. If some one catch the crawler machine, explosives should be made to explode.

Either way, there should be some cost for the enemy.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 06 Nov 2020 03:11

Please delete if already posted

Satellite Images Show China Moved Drones, J-20 Stealth Fighters To Hotan Airbase North Of Ladakh

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/sate ... -of-ladakh

madhu · Post by **madhu** » 06 Nov 2020 11:39

guys, now that Joe Biden (favorite of Cheen) is almost next president of the united states, what are the chances of
1) Pakistan making GB as province living India unable to do anything?
2) war started by China probably supported by Pakistan?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 06 Nov 2020 12:43

Why this sudden chatter about India making moves to take back occupied J&K from Pakistan?
It's not going to happen anytime soon without a war.

Sonugn · Post by **Sonugn** » 06 Nov 2020 13:19

jamwal wrote:Why this sudden chatter about India making moves to take back occupied J&K from Pakistan?
It's not going to happen anytime soon without a war.

RM & CDS has made some statements. I believe just a reminder to CCP & Pak not to get uppity viz. US elections

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 06 Nov 2020 14:07

A lot of politicians in power and all PMs have said something like "All of J&K is an integral part of India". BJP politicians are doing the same thing that has been going on since independence. Unlike 370, Ram Mandi and 3T, this is not an issue which can be solved by voting in parliament.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Nov 2020 14:21

Exactly, and without some years of preparation we cant just walk in there, we still have a lot to improve our capabilities and degrade a lot of Paki capabilities. We forget China had built up over years while we twiddled our thumbs- its not just will but having the material capability to act on it.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 06 Nov 2020 14:21

they said we will not hesitate to fight in foreign soil - that may not mean PoK or GB - technically it is not foreign soil. So no threat there IMO.

madhu · Post by **madhu** » 06 Nov 2020 14:30

the question is not that we will fight or not. with US having favorable president towards china and Pakistan how fast will they move.
i think all the bravado in Ladak is just to give breathing time for Pakistan to integrate GB so that china can have free access to it.

chetonzz · Post by **chetonzz** » 06 Nov 2020 17:14

madhu wrote:the question is not that we will fight or not. with US having favorable president towards china and Pakistan how fast will they move.
i think all the bravado in Ladak is just to give breathing time for Pakistan to integrate GB so that china can have free access to it.

china always had free access to GB...hell, they have free access to whole Pak for that matter. it was always a paki "tit for tat" move reserved till India made first move w.r.t. J&K special status

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 06 Nov 2020 21:59

Aditya_V wrote:Exactly, and without some years of preparation we cant just walk in there, we still have a lot to improve our capabilities and degrade a lot of Paki capabilities. We forget China had built up over years while we twiddled our thumbs- its not just will but having the material capability to act on it.

Exactly what extra preparation is needed according to you to wage a successful war with Pakistan?

The more delay India does on its end wrt finishing off Pakistan,it will become more and more difficult it will become for India to successfully overcome Pakistani challenge. Right now(within 1 to 1.5 years) is the best time to take offensive action against Pakis. Currently Pakis are in severe financial distress and militarily in a bad condition. Baloch and Pashtun rebels are gaining in strength. Baloch are now launching direct attack against paki troops. Afghanistan is totally anti pak. India has inducted many new weapons systems. IBG concept is in progress. cds post has been created. If we are able to destroy Pakistan before 2022, nothing like it. But if you delay any longer, all bets are off. Remember deep state this back in power now in DC. Biden is just a pawn. Slowly but surely they will reverse both anti china and anti pakistani measures. Wrt Pakistan they will be taken out of FATF grey list and will be provided with much needed financial breathing space. In all likelihood the military aid that was suspended will also be resumed. After this baloch rebels will also be cut down. And their current sugar daddies in form of China and Turkey will continue to build them up.

Plus war technology is also progressing in an interesting direction which has the potential to atleast partially negate a financially and militarily larger country's advantages.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 06 Nov 2020 23:49

Watch from 5:30 onwards: On LOC Paki sniper dispatched by Indian Sniper to meet 72 Sex starved mullahs

sreerudra · Post by **sreerudra** » 07 Nov 2020 03:08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBEL-z5_6AA

Should we trust this guy? He certainly looked down up-on India though.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 08 Nov 2020 00:38

Maj Gen (Dr)GD Bakshi SM,VSM(retd)
@GeneralBakshi
·
40m
The Chinese are deploying Turkish type tank Killer drones in Ladakh. we need to be Very careful and deploy aequate Countermeasures to ensure our taanks do not get plinked like Armenias tanks

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 08 Nov 2020 12:29

Nihat wrote:
nachiket wrote: While I agree that the expectation of taking GB or Aksai Chin is ridiculous considering ground realities, your second assertion is equally wrong. Our force posture on the LoC has not been weakened even one bit by the strengthening of forces on the LAC. The capability for surgical strikes or Balakot style operations still exists as is the capacity to manage the threat of escalation. If the pakis suspected this even slightly, we would have been dealing with a very hot LoC by now.
True that

In fact a large force deployment on LAC would worry pakis more as such forces would be acclimatized and can easily be used to switch focus to the pakis of necessary.

Not to mention that the currently both the Paki civilian and military leadership is grappling with a myriad of internal problems which is going to keep their attention divided.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 08 Nov 2020 14:47

Ladakh standoff: India, China agree to ensure frontline troops exercise restraint

NEW DELHI : The eighth round of talks between India and China at the level of senior commanders agreed to ensure that “frontline troops" exercise restraint, a joint statement issued by both sides on Sunday said, as the India-China military stand-off looked set to stretch into the winter months ahead.

The talks between senior military commanders of the two countries were held in Chushul on the Indian side of the Line of Actual Control on Friday. It came on a day the face off completed six months. Indian troops had first detected intrusions by Chinese soldiers into Indian territory in early May.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 08 Nov 2020 21:02

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Nov 2020 07:45

Of course the PRC will exercise " restraint".... for now,during winter and when spring and summer come,resume its arrogant posture.Is our MEA so asinine to take the Chins at their word and lessen our guard. On the contrary,we should turn tables on the PRC and accelerate our recognition of Taiwan and Tibet.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 09 Nov 2020 09:20

I hope IA is not taking the Chinese for their word. Use Reagan's principle - speak softly but wield a big stick.