2020 US election results discussion

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Locked
Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8220
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Gus »

saip wrote:How is it possible only the Presidential election is rigged against Trump but NOT against Republicans? NOT A SINGLE congressional seat got flipped by the Democrats. Even the Senate seems poised for dead lock. No blue wave. Trump complained in 2016 about millions of illegal voters against him and even appointed a commission to dig dirt on them. Commission dissolved and not a single illegal voter found. Why do some people on this board peddle republican conspiracy theories?
Because that's what they want you to think man.

They got those winning republicans to collude too. Now they are vested in their win and will force Trump to not contest the results. Then they will all celebrate in the basement of a pizza place doing ****philia. I got this straight from Q. 8)
Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10078
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

^^^If you take a look at AZ, MI, PA, and GA Dem controlled districts. All Dem controlled congressional seats stayed with the Dems. Voting irregularities are a real issue in these districts.
Raja
BRFite
Posts: 342
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Raja »

It was clear for weeks the story that Trump and his coterie were trying to spin. Very surprising the number of rakshaks falling for this.
ShyamSP
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2564
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by ShyamSP »

Raja wrote:It was clear for weeks the story that Trump and his coterie were trying to spin. Very surprising the number of rakshaks falling for this.
Spin or not it is important they contest whether they win or not so people are aware fraud avenues and methods. Mail-in ballot by nature is fraud-prone.

We clearly saw media and social media manipulations. They have been successful in "color revolution" in this elections.

India can learn and put safeguards to manipulations and fraud avenues. I don't know if Modi group recognizes danger and work out solutions or not.
Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10078
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Raja wrote:It was clear for weeks the story that Trump and his coterie were trying to spin. Very surprising the number of rakshaks falling for this.
Hardly. At the district levels, these Dem controlled counties began the manipulations ever since the vote-by-mail system was introduced. Without a Central Election Commission, all sorts of fraud is possible. CA was the worst offender which sent out unsolicited ballots everywhere.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32762
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by chetak »

wow, mylapore mama and mylapore maami,

both share a connection to Madras.


Gateway House@GatewayHouseIND·12h

#DidYouKnow President Elect @JoeBiden has an ancestral connect with India?

Reupping Tim Willasey-Wilsey, @warstudies

@KingsCollegeLon's article which gives an in-depth analysis on brothers Christopher & William Biden who worked for East India company:


Biden’s ancestral Chennai connect

31 AUGUST 2020, Gateway House

Biden’s ancestral Chennai connect

U.S. presidential candidate Joe Biden has an ancestral connect with India, as does his vice-presidential nominee Kamala Harris, both tracing it back to Chennai, then Madras. During the 19th century, brothers Christopher and William Biden worked for the East India company, taking the rather arduous ship route between London and India. While William died at an early age, Christopher went on to Captain several ships during his service and eventually settled down to a prosperous life in Madras.

Kamala Harris spoke movingly of her discussions with her grandfather P.V.Gopalan as they walked along the beach at Chennai. It now appears that her running-mate Joe Biden may also have ancestors who strolled along the same stretch of sand two centuries before.

Joe Biden first made the claim of an Indian connection in 2013. Two years later he elaborated that he was descended from George Biden, his “great, great, great, great, great grandfather” who was a Captain in the East India Company. After retirement George Biden decided to settle in India and married an Indian woman.

There are no records of a George Biden in India but there were two Bidens who became Captains of East India Company armed merchant ships (known as Indiamen). They were brothers. Both started out as humble Third and Fourth Mates in their early teens on the arduous route between London and India via the Cape of Good Hope. It was dangerous and uncomfortable work but the prospect of advancement made it attractive for sons of financially distressed but aspirational families. William Henry Biden started out in the Midas (414 tons). Eventually he would command the ships Anna Robertson, Ganges and Thalia (570 tons) before he died of “apoplexy” (a stroke) at Rangoon on 25th March 1843 aged 51. His were relatively minor cargo ships which traded mainly in Asian waters. His older brother Christopher Biden, by contrast, became a well-known figure in Madras (modern Chennai) for many years and he did settle in India.

Christopher began as a Fourth Mate. By 1807 he was sailing in the 1333 ton Royal George which made seven return voyages to India before 1818. By 1815 he had become its Chief Mate. In 1821 he became Captain of the Princess Charlotte of Wales (978 tons) and made four return journeys between England and Calcutta (modern Kolkata). He also captained the new Royal George (1426 tons) on one voyage. Each return journey lasted a year. Apart from being extremely gruelling each trip provided the opportunity for significant personal enrichment. In 1830 he retired from the Princess Charlotte and settled down in Blackheath, near London, to complete a book on which he had clearly been working for many years.

It carried the snappy title “Naval Discipline. Subordination contrasted with insubordination; or, a view of the necessity for passing a law establishing an efficient naval discipline on board ships in the Merchant-Service; comprising a valuable record of occurrences on board various ships; evincing the advantages arising from good order on the one hand, and the disasters attending the want of it on the other.”

In spite of its title it is a fascinating book (available to read online) which focused on the very real challenges of managing a diverse crew, passengers and (often) soldiers on a long taxing voyage on a tiny ship. He seems to have solicited stories from fellow Indiaman captains and the result is a kaleidoscope of dismal tales of drunkenness, insubordination, insolence, theft, murder and what we would now call mental health issues against a background of storms, dangerous reefs, men falling overboard, hostile ships, navigational errors and shipwrecks.

His theme was that if you treat people with respect they will not abuse your trust. “I have had fancy balls, transparencies, plays, &c. in commemoration of those glorious days, and of the coronation, the birth-day of our gracious Sovereign, &c. and in no one instance has this indulgence been abused, or the duty of the ship neglected. I have frequently allowed seamen to dance on the lee-side of the quarter-deck. None of these trespasses upon the over rigid system of discipline have ever produced the least source of annoyance, knowing, as I trust I always did, where to draw the line, where to stop” (p.170).

He disapproved of flogging but reluctantly thought it needed to be retained as an ultimate sanction. “Flogging should only be resorted to when all other modes of punishment fail, or the offence is of such a magnitude that no doubt can remain in the mind of the captain and his officers of the offender being a fit object to receive so exemplary a punishment. The more I consider and reflect on the subject, the more fixed is the conviction on my own mind that it will be unwise and unsafe to deprive the commander of so necessary a power of control” (p.175).

Biden had married Harriott Freeth in his native Derbyshire (unlike many of his colleagues who were Scottish, the Bidens were from England) in 1819 and had a son and two daughters. Perhaps Biden felt he was too young to retire aged 41. So he bought a Chittagong-built teak ship of 712 tons, the Victory and sailed her on two trips to Colombo and Bombay in 1832 and 1834. On the second trip he discovered Nelson Island in the Chagos Archipelago.

We do not know how financially successful the Victory venture proved; but it was innately hazardous to own a ship without sharing the risk with other investors. He may have lost money which was why in 1839 he set off to India aboard the Marquis Camden with his wife and daughter to become Master Attendant and Marine Storekeeper at Madras; in charge of shipping. On the voyage to India his daughter died and was doubtless buried at sea.

During his 19 years in Madras Biden gained a reputation for diligence; for example placing lights along the coast to prevent maritime disasters. He was highly imaginative; constantly suggesting improvements for maritime safety. He was also actively involved in charities for widows and orphans of mariners of all nationalities including Indians.

His son, Horatio, joined him in Madras in 1846 and went on to become a Colonel in the Madras Artillery. There were also a few other Bidens in India; one of whom was headmaster of La Martiniere College in Calcutta (Kolkata).

In 1858 Christopher Biden died in Madras and is commemorated by a plaque in the Cathedral there. Apart from the memorial tablet in the Cathedral there is also a portrait of Biden by George Chinnery seated with his dog, Hector. His wife Harriott lived on in London until 1880. Some of her papers are kept at Cambridge University and testify to her husband’s kindness and their mutual love. Nowhere is there mention of an Indian wife but Christopher seems the most likely candidate if Joe Biden indeed had an ancestor in India.



Image

Tim Willasey-Wilsey is Visiting Professor of War Studies at King’s College, London and a former senior British diplomat.
hanumadu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5243
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by hanumadu »

Trump is playing golf after the elections. He did not look like he gives a damn about the result.
ShyamSP
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2564
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by ShyamSP »

hanumadu wrote:Trump is playing golf after the elections. He did not look like he gives a damn about the result.
Or may be waiting for rise of Phoenix. :wink:
hanumadu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5243
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by hanumadu »

ShyamSP wrote:
hanumadu wrote:Trump is playing golf after the elections. He did not look like he gives a damn about the result.
Or may be waiting for rise of Phoenix. :wink:
Either he is amazingly detached, doesn't care about the result or he is confident a recount will overturn the result.
ShyamSP
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2564
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by ShyamSP »

hanumadu wrote:
ShyamSP wrote:
Or may be waiting for rise of Phoenix. :wink:
Either he is amazingly detached, doesn't care about the result or he is confident a recount will overturn the result.
Phoenix is hint for Arizona. Let's have the counting and cases play out and wait until hurdles for contested election are over. He has until middle of December or until cases cleared unless he concedes before.
Last edited by ShyamSP on 09 Nov 2020 07:18, edited 1 time in total.
Madhusudhan
BRFite
Posts: 137
Joined: 20 Apr 1999 11:31

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Madhusudhan »

Number of drone strikes within Pakistan under Obama-Biden: 373.
Number of drone strikes within Pakistan under Trump: 5.

I will take Biden over Trump any day from either an Indian or American viewpoint.
ShyamSP
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2564
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by ShyamSP »

Madhusudhan wrote:Number of drone strikes within Pakistan under Obama-Biden: 373.
Number of drone strikes within Pakistan under Trump: 5.

I will take Biden over Trump any day from either an Indian or American viewpoint.
Looking at different angle, 373 times that Pakis put some terrorists under drones, they wanted 373 concessions on other things.
Trump may have been less beneficial to Pakis.
Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10078
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Madhusudhan wrote:Number of drone strikes within Pakistan under Obama-Biden: 373.
Number of drone strikes within Pakistan under Trump: 5.

I will take Biden over Trump any day from either an Indian or American viewpoint.
DIrect military aid (not civilian) to Pakistan from:
FY2010-13: $1,728,138,508.07
FY2014-17: $1,145,498,626.97
FY2018-21(provisional): $369,364,891.86

So please tell me which administration has handled TSP better?
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32762
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by chetak »

Image
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32762
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by chetak »

obama was nothing better than a crook.

don't get taken in by the PR.
Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10078
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

The question remains if state and federal courts will hear the Republican claims of voting irregularities and fraud in AZ, MI, PA and GA. Stacey Abrams, the Georgia governor in waiting, is claiming she and the Democrats can deliver the two Senate seats that will be going in for a runoff election in 2-3 weeks. It will be enough time to manufacture sufficient votes.

The election results are not final until the 8th of December when the Electoral College must resolve disputes and vote on the 13th of December. If there are lawsuits moving forward, then final counting may be delayed.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12238
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Raja wrote:It was clear for weeks the story that Trump and his coterie were trying to spin. Very surprising the number of rakshaks falling for this.
it would be in the interest of Biden to let Trump team challenge and get thr recounts done. What is Biden campaign afraid of? Thye can still go ahead and work in the transition. they certainly can work on whittling down the lists for staffing the White House as well as the cabinet. let the recounting and legal system work in parallel. if they lose, then thye can wind up at that time. if they win - thye are confident of that anyway - why taint thier win?
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12238
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Mort Walker wrote:The question remains if state and federal courts will hear the Republican claims of voting irregularities and fraud in AZ, MI, PA and GA. Stacey Abrams, the Georgia governor in waiting, is claiming she and the Democrats can deliver the two Senate seats that will be going in for a runoff election in 2-3 weeks. It will be enough time to manufacture sufficient votes.

The election results are not final until the 8th of December when the Electoral College must resolve disputes and vote on the 13th of December. If there are lawsuits moving forward, then final counting may be delayed.
Electoral college might not vote as per the verdict. In 2016, 2 votes left Trump and 5 left Hillary C. This time around, there could be more defections. that is why it is important to get the final vote count. if it is close a few defections can make or break either of the candidates.
Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10078
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Faithless electors can be prosecuted by their state. Let’s see if any of these cases have legal merit. Some are saying there is an irregularity of 135,000 votes in Fulton county GA. Ballots of newly registered voters above age 90 are being examined again. There is the concern to look at voting irregularities in Phoenix, Milwaukee, Detroit, Philadelphia and Atlanta.
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4838
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Mort Walker wrote:^^^If you take a look at AZ, MI, PA, and GA Dem controlled districts. All Dem controlled congressional seats stayed with the Dems. Voting irregularities are a real issue in these districts.
All major urban areas in US, whether in Red states ot blue states, are political strongholds of Democratic Party. In every election, it is a game of numbers: will there be enough turnout in the cities to beat the Republican majorities in the more rural areas?

I am not aware of any studies or reports that show that there are proportionally more voting irregularities (how are they defined?) in the urban / Democratic areas in the states you listed, compared to other states & rural areas (presumptively Republican) Are you?

I have seen many allegations on Twitter and in the media about dead people receiving ballots by post. That may be true, but it doesn’t follow that votes were cast using those ballots. In many places, there is no automatic tie-up between death records and voter registration, some states just allow the registration to “expire” after 1-2 elections in which the registered voter failed to vote. Family is supposed to notify social security, voter registrar etc., after family member’s demise. Many people don’t do it.

This is a flaw and leaves openings for fraud-e.g., in states that don’t require picture id or with mail votes, someone can fill in the dead person’s ballot, forge the signature and hope for the best. It is unclear to me how many actually would do this, or that somehow Democratic voters are more likely to do this, so that this kind of “retail fraud” just doesn’t cancel itself out on the average.

And, as I said in an earlier post, electoral fraud in American culture has been by voter suppression—crafting laws and administrative machinery to stay within the law while setting up roadblocks to voting in poorer and minority areas. Efforts to counter this by aggressive voter registration etc. are very recent, and whatever fraud allegations there may be on that side, there isn’t any supporting data for them as yet.

We can count on the party that expects to suffer due to higher and more convenient voter participation to dig into the flaws in this new trend. That is the way to improve & clean up the system over a couple of electoral cycles.(Note that 100% pure and fraud-free is not a meaningful standard in any functioning democratic voting system in the world, i.e., election is not cancelled or even full audit ordered if there is proof of 1-2 (so to say) fraudulent votes)

What we are seeing in the media & SM (not saying anything BRF here) is that process of catching problems in recent voter registration campaign is being executed in a sloppy and demagogic way, mostly by people who don’t or won’t understand the process trying to influence others who don’t understand the process.
KJo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9926
Joined: 05 Oct 2010 02:54

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KJo »

The results are not official yet but leftist media is reporting "It's Official! Biden wins!". Now if something happens in count/recount and Trump squeaks through, then they will be outraged, so this must be to put pressure on electoral college to rush things and declare Biden a winner.

Media declaration needs to be banned as it is similar to interfering with the electoral process.

Pfizer conveniently announced that their vaccine is 90% working. All seems to be part of a plan. Local Dem desis are all laughing at how well this was done.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32762
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by chetak »

NDTV@ndtv · 5h
China Declines To Acknowledge Joe Biden Victory https://ndtv.com/world-news/china-decli ... ry-2322694
ShyamSP
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2564
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by ShyamSP »

KJo wrote:The results are not official yet but leftist media is reporting "It's Official! Biden wins!". Now if something happens in count/recount and Trump squeaks through, then they will be outraged, so this must be to put pressure on electoral college to rush things and declare Biden a winner.

Media declaration needs to be banned as it is similar to interfering with the electoral process.

Pfizer conveniently announced that their vaccine is 90% working. All seems to be part of a plan. Local Dem desis are all laughing at how well this was done.
Media flip, esp Fox, was so sudden, it looks big conspiracy but if normal people explain conspiracy they are censored on social media platforms.

India is better off to keep the US media and platforms away in India. As Rajiv Malhotra alluded a few times, India and Indian politicians are not realizing the danger.

Vaccine is something Trump sped up but news seems to be withheld till elections. If they had announced positive news is coming before, it would have further helped Trump.
Raja
BRFite
Posts: 342
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Raja »

Vayutuvan wrote:
Raja wrote:It was clear for weeks the story that Trump and his coterie were trying to spin. Very surprising the number of rakshaks falling for this.
it would be in the interest of Biden to let Trump team challenge and get thr recounts done. What is Biden campaign afraid of? Thye can still go ahead and work in the transition. they certainly can work on whittling down the lists for staffing the White House as well as the cabinet. let the recounting and legal system work in parallel. if they lose, then thye can wind up at that time. if they win - thye are confident of that anyway - why taint thier win?
No one is afraid. However, please do consider how easily your logic can be applied to the Trump campaign.
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4838
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

KJo wrote:The results are not official yet but leftist media is reporting "It's Official! Biden wins!". Now if something happens in count/recount and Trump squeaks through, then they will be outraged, so this must be to put pressure on electoral college to rush things and declare Biden a winner.

Media declaration needs to be banned as it is similar to interfering with the electoral process.

Pfizer conveniently announced that their vaccine is 90% working. All seems to be part of a plan. Local Dem desis are all laughing at how well this was done.
IIUC even Fox went along with the projections, so it is not just “leftist” media (actually they are corporate media, far from leftist).

In any US election, official results are declared several days or weeks after election date. And media “declaring” (correct term is “projecting”, only county registrars can declare) the winner using standard statistical techniques on Election Day itself or at most a few days afterwards is very normal, it has been going on for several decades, ever since live counting data has become available.

There is nothing crazy or conspiratorial about this. These projections are wrong extremely rarely. It is basic applied statistics. Almost the only case that even comes close is the 2000 Florida case, in which media mostly waited for the recount process to play out.

In this election, votes in many states were so close that the media statisticians had to wait longer, to get a higher counting percentage before they made their projections. The result was actually clear (though not the exact electoral vote margin) to the statisticians by Wednesday itself, but the media outlets waited till Saturday (when counting was nearly 100% in most contested places) because they didn’t want to look like they were jumping the gun.

You can’t just arbitrarily go around banning this and that in USA—first amendment that guarantees against such a ban is very strictly applied. The constitution doesn’t allow “prior restraint” of what media can say. So there is no way to ban projections.

It is illegal to interfere with voting. Saying something after all voting is over is not an interference in the electoral process. Many election cycles back, they used to start doing projections when voting was over on East coast. Then there were objections that it discouraged west coast people from voting because they may think their votes don’t matter. So they stopped doing that, by mutual consent. Same with exit polls. They don’t use them any more for doing projections any more.

This election breaks new ground due to high turnout and widespread use of mail-in ballots (the option was always there, the volume is new). So there may be some lessons to be learned in this projection process.

Are you claiming that Pfizer did a conspiracy and withheld the vaccine announcement? I wonder, if every corporation and industry and business is busy running a highly-coordinated complex conspiracy, how much time they will have left for actually doing research etc.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 09 Nov 2020 21:58, edited 5 times in total.
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9127
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by nachiket »

Before election day itself, people had been warning that this election would be different and the winner would probably not be known on election night thanks to the sheer volume of postal ballots which came in. Counting these takes time. Plus postal ballots are more likely to have issues, and they have to make sure all regulations are followed. Then there are provisional ballots which have other complexities. The election officials have been warning that counting will take time. But people in the US are used to finding out who won fairly quickly.

So on election night, the votes of those who voted in person got counted first, followed by states where they had changed the rules to count postal ballots before election day and those where they had hired a lot more people to help. Now the Democrats had been telling people to vote by mail for a long time. Trump had not. He even told his voters to make sure they turn up at the booth not long before election day. So it makes perfect sense that the mail-in ballots were largely democratic and the in-person ballots were Republican. Since the mail ballots are counted slower, the late swings towards Biden are not surprising or indicative of foul play.

Keep in mind that several of these states are run by Republicans who run the election infra there. They showed similar trends. Of course we live in an era when CT's are mainstream and people will believe anything. So this circus will continue.

In India we see this nonsense every time BJP wins an election when all opposition parties come together to blame EVM's. Somehow these EVM's work fine when BJP loses. At least they have the decency to accept the election results though. Trump doesn't. They are trying the same tactic there. All the states where Biden leads have fraud. The ones where Trump won are fine. Ask to stop the count in MI when Trump was leading but Biden was catching up, while ask to keep counting all the votes in AZ where Biden was leading but Trump was catching up. Shout loudly about a conspiracy often enough and your supporters will believe you, since they already believe the other side are a bunch of crooks anyway. Spread around a few images and make wild claims, the wilder the better and you will succeed.

We have seen this nonsense play out in recent times in India, although thanks to our strong EC and a non-partisan election infrastructure it never goes anywhere. I don't understand how people here do not recognize the same thing occurring in the US albeit on a much bigger and more ridiculous scale.

Back in the bad old days of UPA-II, we used to have an entire thread here about EVM magic and fraudulent results. The 2009 result along with other election losses of the BJP used to get blamed on that. People were giving dire warnings of the same before 2014 too. Just after the 2014 results I had asked such a member whether their theory was now falsified. He replied that no, that only showed that the Congress chose not to use EVM magic in 2014 or failed for some unknown reason. I stopped arguing after that.
saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4244
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by saip »

First Monday after the Second Wednesday in December (Dec 14th) -- The electoral college will meet in respective states to cast ballots
Fourth Wednesday in December (Dec 23rd) - The elctoral votes should be received by the Government Archivist
First Wednesday in January (Jan 6th) - JOINT SESSON of New Congress (i.e. House of representatives and the Senate) will meet to COUNT the electoral college votes to declare the winners. Until then everything is UNOFFICIAL.
So it is written and so it shall be done.
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9056
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by vijayk »

Madhusudhan wrote:Number of drone strikes within Pakistan under Obama-Biden: 373.
Number of drone strikes within Pakistan under Trump: 5.

I will take Biden over Trump any day from either an Indian or American viewpoint.
Most of Obama's drone strikes in Pak were on Paki Taliban if I remember correctly
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4838
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Vayutuvan wrote: it would be in the interest of Biden to let Trump team challenge and get thr recounts done. What is Biden campaign afraid of? Thye can still go ahead and work in the transition. they certainly can work on whittling down the lists for staffing the White House as well as the cabinet. let the recounting and legal system work in parallel. if they lose, then thye can wind up at that time. if they win - thye are confident of that anyway - why taint thier win?
In real life, in a free country, we can’t just assume someone is a criminal and arbitrarily search their house (to take an analogy), and say, “if you did nothing wrong, what are you afraid of when I search your house? After all, it can only prove your innocence, so it’s for your own good.”

This is called presumption of guilt and it’s not acceptable.
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9056
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by vijayk »

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... atic-party
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has criticised the Democratic party for incompetence in a no-holds-barred, post-election interview with the New York Times, warning that if the Biden administration does not put progressives in top positions, the party would lose big in the 2022 midterm elections.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has criticised the Democratic party for incompetence in a no-holds-barred, post-election interview with the New York Times, warning that if the Biden administration does not put progressives in top positions, the party would lose big in the 2022 midterm elections.

Signaling that the internal moratorium in place while the Democrats worked to defeat Donald Trump was over, the leftwing New York representative sharply rejected the notion advanced by some Democrats that progressive messaging around the Movement for Black Lives and the Green New Deal led to the party’s loss of congressional seats in last week’s election.

The real problem, said Ocasio-Cortez, was that the party lacked “core competencies” to run campaigns.
Since then, Ocasio-Cortez and her closest allies in Congress – a four-woman group known as “the squad” who all won reelection last week – toed the party line while calling on grassroots activists to boost Biden and Democrats down-ticket.

The truce is over. The failure of the party to operate an online strategy “in a real way that exhibits competence”, Ocasio-Cortez told the Times, made it hypocritical for the party to advance criticism of progressive messaging.

“If I lost my election, and I went out and I said: ‘This is moderates’ fault. This is because you didn’t let us have a floor vote on Medicare for all.’ And they opened the hood on my campaign, and they found that I only spent $5,000 on TV ads the week before the election?” Ocasio-Cortez said. “They would laugh. And that’s what they look like right now trying to blame the Movement for Black Lives for their loss.”
vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4038
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by vera_k »

KLNMurthy wrote:I have seen many allegations on Twitter and in the media about dead people receiving ballots by post. That may be true, but it doesn’t follow that votes were cast using those ballots.
I found 1 vote cast by a dead person in MI after confirming what was posted on Twitter (person born in 1900) against the MI elections website. Now, the MI elections officials claim that they exclude votes cast by dead persons by comparing against death records, so votes cast by dead people may be excluded that way. However, it does point to some vote harvesting operation underway that secured and returned the ballot sent out for that dead person.

IMO election legal actions after the result this year are a mirror of the election lawsuits that have been under way for months before the election to change mail in voting procedures.
saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4244
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by saip »

Georgia GOP lieutenant governor (REPUBLICAN) says 'no credible examples' of voter fraud
CNN
ShyamSP
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2564
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by ShyamSP »

vera_k wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:I have seen many allegations on Twitter and in the media about dead people receiving ballots by post. That may be true, but it doesn’t follow that votes were cast using those ballots.
I found 1 vote cast by a dead person in MI after confirming what was posted on Twitter (person born in 1900) against the MI elections website. Now, the MI elections officials claim that they exclude votes cast by dead persons by comparing against death records, so votes cast by dead people may be excluded that way. However, it does point to some vote harvesting operation underway that secured and returned the ballot sent out for that dead person.

IMO election legal actions after the result this year are a mirror of the election lawsuits that have been under way for months before the election to change mail in voting procedures.
Of course there is every chance for fraud this year. In California they sent unsolicited ballots to voters. Solicited/pre-verified or absentee ballots are okay.

Free circulating ballots for 30 days are all fraud prone. In election booth voter may get ballot for 10-15 mins and that too with all ID verification.

Ballot-harvest in large numbers and print signature from data file (name and signature are easy to procure) can be done.
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4838
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Mort Walker wrote:
Raja wrote:It was clear for weeks the story that Trump and his coterie were trying to spin. Very surprising the number of rakshaks falling for this.
Hardly. At the district levels, these Dem controlled counties began the manipulations ever since the vote-by-mail system was introduced. Without a Central Election Commission, all sorts of fraud is possible. CA was the worst offender which sent out unsolicited ballots everywhere.
Lack of a powerful Central Election Commission as in India is a structural reality that brings its own tradeoffs, and as you say, it introduces some structural flaws into the system. But it has never existed in the US in all its 200+ years, and I hope you will agree that the flaws due to its absence affect all states regardless of which party is in power there. And there is no realistic way to put an India-like CEC in place in the US. So, it is not clear to me why its absence should be such a huge concern (enough to be be a basis for questioning the integrity of the vote) in this particular election and only for CA and other Dem-ruled states. (The Dem-left wing crying about the Electoral College is also equally problematic IMO--you can't get rid of it without changing the basic foundational structure of the US itself, and there is no realistic way to do that)

CA decided to send mail-in ballots to every single registered voter, due to covid concerns. Unclear how this constitutes an offense or manipulation, unless you are implying that they only sent mail-in ballots to Democrats and not Republicans?

There were still glitches in the mailing in CA, as I am sure is the case in other states. I have anecdotal information about registered Democratic party voters not receiving their mail-in ballots and having to go and vote in person, despite valid concerns about covid vulnerability related to age etc. I didn't interpret this information to mean that CA was conspiring against Democratic Party. Should I have? Maybe there is Republican ecosystem in CA like the Congress ecosystem in India that secretly reduced the ballot mailings to Democratic voters by a certain percentage to reduce the popular vote, or to affect down-ballot contests? Anything is possible, right?
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4838
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Mort Walker wrote:The question remains if state and federal courts will hear the Republican claims of voting irregularities and fraud in AZ, MI, PA and GA. Stacey Abrams, the Georgia governor in waiting, is claiming she and the Democrats can deliver the two Senate seats that will be going in for a runoff election in 2-3 weeks. It will be enough time to manufacture sufficient votes.

The election results are not final until the 8th of December when the Electoral College must resolve disputes and vote on the 13th of December. If there are lawsuits moving forward, then final counting may be delayed.
Is Stacy Abrams running for Georgia Governor? I thought she ran & lost in 2018. This is news to me.
ShyamSP
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2564
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by ShyamSP »

KLNMurthy wrote:[
CA decided to send mail-in ballots to every single registered voter, due to covid concerns. Unclear how this constitutes an offense or manipulation, unless you are implying that they only sent mail-in ballots to Democrats and not Republicans?

There were still glitches in the mailing in CA, as I am sure is the case in other states. I have anecdotal information about registered Democratic party voters not receiving their mail-in ballots and having to go and vote in person, despite valid concerns about covid vulnerability related to age etc. I didn't interpret this information to mean that CA was conspiring against Democratic Party. Should I have? Maybe there is Republican ecosystem in CA like the Congress ecosystem in India that secretly reduced the ballot mailings to Democratic voters by a certain percentage to reduce the popular vote, or to affect down-ballot contests? Anything is possible, right?
Free circulation of ballots in mail is problem. Mail theft is problem, if voters don't get ballot many don't care or may not be aware they got it.

If results are to tune of 1000s difference, you can do successful ballot harvesting operation to overcome difference. Some states don't have strict signature verification during counting it is easy-peasy there.

Don't tell me the Riot guy openly going to Walmart and looting TVs in front of cops, can be hired to do these jobs.
Last edited by ShyamSP on 09 Nov 2020 23:19, edited 1 time in total.
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9127
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by nachiket »

Trump's best chance of picking up a state (other than NC and Alaska which he is winning) is Arizona. EVen though Fox News and AP called it for Biden others have not and it looks like a bad decision to do that. Biden's lead is less than 17000 now and reducing, although maybe not fast enough for Trump to catch up. Biden does not need Arizona to win though so it won't make a difference in the result.
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4838
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

vera_k wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:I have seen many allegations on Twitter and in the media about dead people receiving ballots by post. That may be true, but it doesn’t follow that votes were cast using those ballots.
I found 1 vote cast by a dead person in MI after confirming what was posted on Twitter (person born in 1900) against the MI elections website. Now, the MI elections officials claim that they exclude votes cast by dead persons by comparing against death records, so votes cast by dead people may be excluded that way. However, it does point to some vote harvesting operation underway that secured and returned the ballot sent out for that dead person.

IMO election legal actions after the result this year are a mirror of the election lawsuits that have been under way for months before the election to change mail in voting procedures.
OK, I have said clearly in other posts, that of course some people will take advantage of the ballots mailed to dead people and send in fraudulent votes. And the verification system in counting doesn't always work 100% perfectly and is very uneven across states. For example, LA Times ran an article saying that signature verification for postal ballots is done by untrained personnel who have about 5 seconds to make a judgment, so it is highly error-prone. So, it's not what one would call a great or highly-efficient system, certainly not a shining example to the whole world as the propaganda goes. So US should learn to be more humble and respectful of other countries who do a better job under harder circumstances.

But system having flaws and some amount fraud in a particular election is not enough to invalidate that election across the board (In 2018 there was 1 case of vote harvesting that caused a repoll, so that local invalidation does happen). Keep in mind even in India (which is close to the gold standard of election operations and credibility) there have been issues and problems in each & every election, especially if you look at the pre-Seshan days. The democratic process & voting system keeps moving forward, and I think there should be some reasonableness, even when we are finding fault.
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4838
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

ShyamSP wrote:
...

Of course there is every chance for fraud this year. In California they sent unsolicited ballots to voters. Solicited/pre-verified or absentee ballots are okay.

Free circulating ballots for 30 days are all fraud prone. In election booth voter may get ballot for 10-15 mins and that too with all ID verification.

Ballot-harvest in large numbers and print signature from data file (name and signature are easy to procure) can be done.
Again, let me repeat. What you are calling sending 'unsolicited' ballots in CA was a state government decision to send ballots to all registered voters due to worries that voting participation will drop massively due to covid fears. IIRC, CA was not the only state that did this.

Whether they send mail ballots only to those that request them, or to all registered voters, the potential for fraud is the same. People can forge signatures, and vote harvesting can be a problem (Tulsi Gabbard introduced a bill in congress to prohibit it.) Any number of problems is possible. But in real life, processes and systems are not usually designed to handle every single imaginable contingency; the system is released into use with reasonable robustness and functionality, and thereafter flaws are identified and fixed in subsequent iterations. Sending ballots to every registered voter on this scale is being done for the first time. There will be flaws and errors. Some of them will be fixed next time, it depends on market (i.e., public) pressures and priorities. Saying in a general way that the system has flaws and potential for errors is not saying anything.

The other idea--the implication that Republicans are morally pure, highly ethical, sweeties who will give biscuits and chocolates to Hindus, whereas Democrats are nothing but crooked woke urban naxal Hinduphobic rascals is not something I buy, because I think we are capable of more sophisticated reasoning. If there are systemic flaws in the process, anyone can exploit them. In CA, Republican party put ballot-collecting boxes on the streets (which was quite legal for them to do because there is no law against vote harvesting), I was not aware of Democratic party doing this, at least to the same extent.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 09 Nov 2020 23:39, edited 2 times in total.
Jay
BRFite
Posts: 720
Joined: 24 Feb 2005 18:24
Location: Gods Country
Contact:

Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Jay »

ShyamSP wrote:
India is better off to keep the US media and platforms away in India. As Rajiv Malhotra alluded a few times, India and Indian politicians are not realizing the danger.
Absolutely, and not just US media, but any foreign media should be kept away from ownership, partership, investments into Indian media landscape.
Locked