2020 US election results discussion

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ShyamSP
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by ShyamSP »

KLNMurthy wrote:
ShyamSP wrote:
...

Of course there is every chance for fraud this year. In California they sent unsolicited ballots to voters. Solicited/pre-verified or absentee ballots are okay.

Free circulating ballots for 30 days are all fraud prone. In election booth voter may get ballot for 10-15 mins and that too with all ID verification.

Ballot-harvest in large numbers and print signature from data file (name and signature are easy to procure) can be done.
Again, let me repeat. What you are calling sending 'unsolicited' ballots in CA was a state government decision to send ballots to all registered voters due to worries that voting participation will drop massively due to covid fears. IIRC, CA was not the only state that did this.

Whether they send mail ballots only to those that request them, or to all registered voters, the potential for fraud is the same. People can forge signatures, and vote harvesting can be a problem (Tulsi Gabbard introduced a bill in congress to prohibit it.) The idea that Republicans are morally pure, highly ethical, sweeties who will give biscuits and chocolates to Hindus, whereas Democrats are nothing but crooked woke urban naxal Hinduphobic rascals is not something I buy, because I think we are capable of more sophisticated reasoning. If there are systemic flaws in the process, anyone can exploit them. In CA, Republican party put ballot-collecting boxes on the streets (which was quite legal for them to do because there is no law against vote harvesting), I was not aware of Democratic party doing this, at least to the same extent.
You're missing that fraud is fraud whoever does it.

Two facts:
-Freely circulating ballots are fraud prone
-Philedelphia (Detroit too) is capable of doing fraud.

Both can happen outside counting also. Some claims of fraud are counting related such as ignoring signature mismatches making invalid ballot as legal. Good audits can find invalid votes and can be excluded.
KLNMurthy
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

ShyamSP wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:[
CA decided to send mail-in ballots to every single registered voter, due to covid concerns. Unclear how this constitutes an offense or manipulation, unless you are implying that they only sent mail-in ballots to Democrats and not Republicans?

There were still glitches in the mailing in CA, as I am sure is the case in other states. I have anecdotal information about registered Democratic party voters not receiving their mail-in ballots and having to go and vote in person, despite valid concerns about covid vulnerability related to age etc. I didn't interpret this information to mean that CA was conspiring against Democratic Party. Should I have? Maybe there is Republican ecosystem in CA like the Congress ecosystem in India that secretly reduced the ballot mailings to Democratic voters by a certain percentage to reduce the popular vote, or to affect down-ballot contests? Anything is possible, right?
Free circulation of ballots in mail is problem. Mail theft is problem, if voters don't get ballot many don't care or may not be aware they got it.

If results are to tune of 1000s difference, you can do successful ballot harvesting operation to overcome difference. Some states don't have strict signature verification during counting it is easy-peasy there.

Don't tell me the Riot guy openly going to Walmart and looting TVs in front of cops, can be hired to do these jobs.
there is a voter support system called ballotrax that provides SMSes from the point of ballot being mailed to ballot being received at the counting station and being accepted.

Not sure what this riot guy is you are talking about. Are you saying rioters are being hired to do election work? Or maybe you see some black people rioting on TV and see some black election workers and so deciding that rioters are doing vote counting? Please do explain.
KLNMurthy
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

ShyamSP wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: Again, let me repeat. What you are calling sending 'unsolicited' ballots in CA was a state government decision to send ballots to all registered voters due to worries that voting participation will drop massively due to covid fears. IIRC, CA was not the only state that did this.

Whether they send mail ballots only to those that request them, or to all registered voters, the potential for fraud is the same. People can forge signatures, and vote harvesting can be a problem (Tulsi Gabbard introduced a bill in congress to prohibit it.) The idea that Republicans are morally pure, highly ethical, sweeties who will give biscuits and chocolates to Hindus, whereas Democrats are nothing but crooked woke urban naxal Hinduphobic rascals is not something I buy, because I think we are capable of more sophisticated reasoning. If there are systemic flaws in the process, anyone can exploit them. In CA, Republican party put ballot-collecting boxes on the streets (which was quite legal for them to do because there is no law against vote harvesting), I was not aware of Democratic party doing this, at least to the same extent.
You're missing that fraud is fraud whoever does it.

Two facts:
-Freely circulating ballots are fraud prone
-Philedelphia (Detroit too) is capable of doing fraud.

Both can happen outside counting also. Some claims of fraud are counting related such as ignoring signature mismatches making invalid ballot as legal. Good audits can find invalid votes and can be excluded.
Is only Philadelphia & Detroit capable of doing fraud? Are all others (maybe coincidentally Republican) just paragons of integrity?

Do you seriously think that in this political climate, every real & imagined fraud is not going to be looked at with a microscope by people that matter--like the high-power lawyers that both sides have? If they don't bring a lawsuit about your favorite places like Philly or Detroit, it means that the lawyers looked at it, and decided there is no case.

Signature issue is a genuine problem. And it can go either way--a vote can get thrown out because an untrained staff member can decide that it is not matching.

I don't have a problem with auditing the count in principle. Though it seems that both parties have observers in the counting offices (yes I know that there are some complaints & lawsuits about the facilities provided to observers etc. but I assume in most of the places there are no issues).

In the coming days, the lawsuit are going to go through the court system, and we will see some court decisions and maybe auditing or maybe even repolls. The lawyers and judges will do their work on both sides. I don't see much point in getting overexcited and constantly shouting "fraud", "conspiracy" (or "let's end the Electoral College" for that matter), just because we may not like the outcome.
ShyamSP
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by ShyamSP »

It is being contested on fraud and breaking laws. Let's take as it is.
KLNMurthy
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Mort Walker wrote:Faithless electors can be prosecuted by their state. Let’s see if any of these cases have legal merit. Some are saying there is an irregularity of 135,000 votes in Fulton county GA. Ballots of newly registered voters above age 90 are being examined again. There is the concern to look at voting irregularities in Phoenix, Milwaukee, Detroit, Philadelphia and Atlanta.
Depends on the state Mort Walker. Some states have explicit election laws that say the elector has to take a pledge to be not "faithless." Some states have specific penalties for being "faithless" (4th degree felony, some $$ fine etc.). Most states apparently are either silent or vague about faithfullness of electors. They just say things like, "electors have to do their duty as per the US constitution." which provides employment to courts & lawyers I guess.

Anyway, it's all very well to argue here, but there is no doubt that in this political climate, the process and its execution will be put under a microscope. If people are smart, it can result in an improvement of the process for next time.
Vayutuvan
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Raja wrote: No one is afraid. However, please do consider how easily your logic can be applied to the Trump campaign.
You made my point for me. what is sauce for the goose and all that. my logic applies to both parties. had HRC campaign found voter fraud and challenged in 2016, I would have been all for that as well. then we wouldn't have had 3 years of impeachment tamasha. In fact, while nCV is spreading through US communities, Dems were playing impeachment drama on the hill. how so. people forget that Biden called Trump a xenophobe when Trump admin instituted a travel ban on China.

Since Dems weaponizated FISA, there is God possibility that DOj will apply a special counsel to look into Hunter Biden. If the GOP gets control of the senate, which seems very likely, be ready for senate hearings.

Positive news about vaccine from Pfizer will take Covid form Dems' talking pint list. Then GOP voters would pressure their senators to get to the bottom of this Hunter Biden-Beijing connection. 2022 would be at stake.

the only way Biden Cana void all this is to get all the legal votes counted and illegal votes discarded. the margins might be smaller, but in the end The results will be upheld.

That would be good for the US
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 10 Nov 2020 00:25, edited 1 time in total.
Vayutuvan
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

KLNMurthy wrote: This is called presumption of guilt and it’s not acceptable.
Who is taking about warrant less searches? You are simplifying to the point of making it too simplistic. I am sure you enough to not advance starwman arguments.

Nobody should stand in the way of the legal process working its way through the courts. If not,
there will be a large number of Trump voters who will doubt the elctions. For the last four years, Dems were arguing that Putin gave the election to Trump. GOP will return the favor in spades. Positive news about Covid vaccines will push handling of the pandemic to the background.

Why is the Biden team in such a tearing hurry? We all know that MSM and professional pollsters failed yet again.
nachiket
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by nachiket »

The 2016 Democratic tantrums were because they lost an election they never thought they would lose. But they did not claim voting fraud. They said Russians interfered by spreading disinformation on Social media and hacking the DNC emails. Vastly different from alleging that the electoral process itself was fraudulent. It didn't matter what the Russians may or may not have done though, Hillary lost fair and square. There was nothing wrong with the election itself. Of course that didn't stop the Democrats from crying for 4 years about it.

The Republican tantrums now are....also because they lost an election they did not think they would lose. Using the same Russian interference excuse would be stupid. So they are alleging straight up vote rigging. An altogether more dangerous allegation.
saip
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by saip »

in AZ Biden's lead is evaporating. Do I hear Democrats screaming?
In GA finally Dems flipped ONE SINGLE SOLITARY Congress seat in the whole country.
chetak
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by chetak »

Groundwork done, Modi govt all set to deal with incoming Biden administration



Groundwork done, Modi govt all set to deal with incoming Biden administration

| Analysis

As far as Prime Minister Narendra Modi is concerned, he runs foreign policy on a personal touch with Indian interests as a top priority. He only gives up on a country or an institution after the latter shows duplicity in bilateral relations.

Nov 08, 2020,
Shishir Gupta
Hindustan Times, New Delhi



Image
Prime minister Narendra Modi greets the then US vice president Joe Biden in Washington DC. Joe Biden has been elected as the 46th President of the United States.

The White House will have a new occupant shortly. What does this mean for India? The Modi government’s connection with President elect Joe Biden goes back to the days when External Affairs S. Jaishankar was Indian Ambassador to US during the Obama administration and present Ambassador to US Taranjit Singh Sandhu was his deputy. The two have kept in touch with close advisors of President elect Biden ensuring that US maintains its bipartisan consensus towards India.

As far as Prime Minister Narendra Modi is concerned, he runs foreign policy on a personal touch with Indian interests as a top priority. He only gives up on a country or an institution after the latter shows duplicity in bilateral relations.

No marks for guessing the countries in that category.

While the Indian foreign policy will indeed have to recalibrate its approach towards the incoming Biden administration, New Delhi knows that president-elect is a collegial guy, who was more approachable to Republican adversaries as a vice president than the president during the Obama years. A quintessential politician who stayed more than half his life in Washington and knows the wrangling at Capitol Hill.

Unlike President Trump who hid his strategy behind a brash style, the incoming President will be more predictable in dealing with the world. He is expected to be tough yet not confrontational with China, will mend fences with Europe and be slightly rough with Russia.

Even though the Chinese experts are gloating over President Trump’s defeat, the US system now firmly believes that Beijing is not only an adversary but also a threat to future. So one should not expect bombastic statements against the Communist Party of China during Biden-era but US policy on China has turned full circle and there should be a build-up on the Asia pivot that was promised but not delivered in the Obama administration. Trump, on his part, may be down but not out and will campaign for the Senate run-offs in Georgia to remain politically relevant in Republican party.

China’s all weather ally Pakistan also heaving a sigh of relief at the exit of President Trump but New Delhi believes that incoming administration will be tough on terrorism, particularly after the recent Islamist attacks in Europe by migrants. The president-elect will continue with past policy of exiting from Afghanistan but that won’t be easy as the US intelligence agencies and Pentagon (Trump dismissed their advice) have been reporting the escalation of Taliban violence with the backing of Haqqani network and Quetta based Shura with direct involvement of Pakistan deep state.

As president-elect is expected to work with expert advice on Afghanistan, then the role of British, who are tied up with Pakistan, may diminish in the near future. Islamabad’s double play in Afghanistan is now known to its former friends like the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia with proof. Pakistan’s problem in fact may multiply with president-elect Biden having a very poor opinion about Islamabad’s newfound ally Turkey.

Iran’s belief that US sanctions may be lifted by incoming Biden administration’s hitching back with Europe on nuclear deal with Tehran may come true as the new administration will move towards multilateralism, which was scorned by the present Trump administration. With the US expected to seek accommodation with Europe on global issues like Climate Change and health due to on-going pandemic, frayed ties with Germany will be on the mend. The US ties with Russia are expected to decline further under the incoming administration.

While New Delhi will wait till January 2021 for formal engagement with the new administration, it appears most confident in dealing with the new occupant of the White House.
Last edited by chetak on 10 Nov 2020 00:32, edited 2 times in total.
nachiket
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by nachiket »

saip wrote:in AZ Biden's lead is evaporating. Do I hear Democrats screaming?
In GA finally Dems flipped ONE SINGLE SOLITARY Congress seat in the whole country.
Considering that the ballots are the same I am wondering how and why the Democrats would rig the presidential one and not the COngressional seat down the ballot. :mrgreen:
Vayutuvan
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

nachiket wrote:
saip wrote:in AZ Biden's lead is evaporating. Do I hear Democrats screaming?
In GA finally Dems flipped ONE SINGLE SOLITARY Congress seat in the whole country.
Considering that the ballots are the same I am wondering how and why the Democrats would rig the presidential one and not the COngressional seat down the ballot. :mrgreen:
That will be too obvious. moreover, Dems believe in concentrating power in the hands of the POTUS. In Telugu there is a saying. (I guess saip would be able to translate it for you)

vaDDinchEvaaDu mana vaaDaitE laDDoolaku Em kodava?

Get Biden into WHOTUS first, redistribute wealth, tax (not so wealthy) to the hilt, and give away the goodies. 2022 us in the bag for Dems - majority in the house and the senate. ka ching for two more years.
nachiket
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by nachiket »

Vayutuvan wrote:
nachiket wrote: Considering that the ballots are the same I am wondering how and why the Democrats would rig the presidential one and not the COngressional seat down the ballot. :mrgreen:
That will be too obvious. moreover, Dems believe in concentrating power in the hands of the POTUS. In Telugu there is a saying. (I guess saip would be able to translate it for you)
Obvious what? They lost or are losing seats in areas where Biden won and seats which they held previously. No one would have batted an eyelid if they had retained those.

This is my problem with all such fraud theories. Both winning and losing can be chalked down to fraud or trying to avoid making it look like fraud. There is no falsifiability whatsoever.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Ambar »

We live in a post Cambridge Analytica world, you don't need to care about the governor of the state or who holds the state senate or house, you just need control of certain cities and their councils. Remember from Dan Rostenkowski to Rod Blagojevich to Jesse Jackson Jr to Kwame Kilpatrick to Katherine Pugh - some cities have a lengthy history of corruption. Atlanta city council is under investigation by the feds for misconduct and bribery under Kasim Reed, its former mayor.
KLNMurthy
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Vayutuvan wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: This is called presumption of guilt and it’s not acceptable.
Who is taking about warrant less searches? You are simplifying to the point of making it too simplistic. I am sure you enough to not advance starwman arguments.

Nobody should stand in the way of the legal process working its way through the courts. If not,
there will be a large number of Trump voters who will doubt the elctions. For the last four years, Dems were arguing that Putin gave the election to Trump. GOP will return the favor in spades. Positive news about Covid vaccines will push handling of the pandemic to the background.

Why is the Biden team in such a tearing hurry? We all know that MSM and professional pollsters failed yet again.
I was basically objecting to the "what are you afraid of if you did nothing wrong?" argument that you put forward. I am not a fan of such reasoning. I gave the broad search & seizure example as an analogy, which I clearly labeled.

There will be challenges and lawsuits from politically interested parties in this election. Let those go forward, but maybe avoid piling on with "what are you afraid of?" type of arguments. It is perfectly fine and legitimate to say, I am challenging or suing because of my partisan political interest, there is no need for making it look like some high moral principle.

Election is over, so polls and pollsters are no longer relevant for public interest, unless one is in the polling business. There is no doubt that they failed massively, once again.

I too would like to think that, assuming that the lawsuits shake out and Biden is still (as I expect) the president-elect, it will strengthen his legitimacy as you said. But I don't believe that for a moment, not with this political climate. Anything that adds to the legitimacy of Biden will be ignored by the other side, whereas the smallest thing that casts the smallest doubt will be amplified and magnified. Sort of like what happens to Hindus in the NYT / WaPo. That's the reality. Politics doesn't play by Marquis of Queensberry rules.

We are getting an education into the election process in all this noise, but I am not optimistic that any of the major players will learn anything,
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 10 Nov 2020 01:10, edited 3 times in total.
nachiket
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by nachiket »

Ambar wrote:We live in a post Cambridge Analytica world, you don't need to care about the governor of the state or who holds the state senate or house, you just need control of certain cities and their councils. Remember from Dan Rostenkowski to Rod Blagojevich to Jesse Jackson Jr to Kwame Kilpatrick to Katherine Pugh - some cities have a lengthy history of corruption. Atlanta city council is under investigation by the feds for misconduct and bribery under Kasim Reed, its former mayor.
I don't think you understand how bad this election was for the Democrats. Their majority in the house is considerably reduced. They did not win most Senate seats they were hoping to flip. Biden's power to do anything significant beyond some executive orders is severely limited. Losing state legislatures means the redistricting that will happen now will be done by Republicans and gerrymandering will mean Dems are at a disadvantage for a whole decade.

Now tell me, if you are going to the trouble of creating fake ballots and rigging an election why would you hamstring your Presidential candidate and your party this way, when all you have to do is fill a few more boxes on the same piece of paper?
KLNMurthy
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Vayutuvan wrote:
nachiket wrote: Considering that the ballots are the same I am wondering how and why the Democrats would rig the presidential one and not the COngressional seat down the ballot. :mrgreen:
That will be too obvious. moreover, Dems believe in concentrating power in the hands of the POTUS. In Telugu there is a saying. (I guess saip would be able to translate it for you)

vaDDinchEvaaDu mana vaaDaitE laDDoolaku Em kodava?

Get Biden into WHOTUS first, redistribute wealth, tax (not so wealthy) to the hilt, and give away the goodies. 2022 us in the bag for Dems - majority in the house and the senate. ka ching for two more years.
There is also another Telugu saying, "ayitE giyitE ayitaMpuDi udyOgaM, perugu maa vaLLakistavaa, mI vaaLLakistavaa?" aka "don't cry that the other guy is enjoying chicken kababs even before the eggs are laid, let alone hatched." :-)

You do understand Vayutuvan garu, that, there is no chance of all that redistribution golmaal happening under Biden, and corporate America helped his victory against leftie Dems for exactly that reason, right? Even if he wanted to (which he doesn't), the R majority in Senate and the weakened majority in House will see to it that he can't do it?
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 10 Nov 2020 01:19, edited 1 time in total.
Ambar
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Ambar »

nachiket wrote:
Ambar wrote:We live in a post Cambridge Analytica world, you don't need to care about the governor of the state or who holds the state senate or house, you just need control of certain cities and their councils. Remember from Dan Rostenkowski to Rod Blagojevich to Jesse Jackson Jr to Kwame Kilpatrick to Katherine Pugh - some cities have a lengthy history of corruption. Atlanta city council is under investigation by the feds for misconduct and bribery under Kasim Reed, its former mayor.
I don't think you understand how bad this election was for the Democrats. Their majority in the house is considerably reduced. They did not win most Senate seats they were hoping to flip. Biden's power to do anything significant beyond some executive orders is severely limited. Losing state legislatures means the redistricting that will happen now will be done by Republicans and gerrymandering will mean Dems are at a disadvantage for a whole decade.

Now tell me, if you are going to the trouble of creating fake ballots and rigging an election why would you hamstring your Presidential candidate and your party this way, when all you have to do is fill a few more boxes on the same piece of paper?
Not at all. Democrats still retain the house for the next term, and there are 24 more seats that are yet to be called. The better than expected performance by Republicans came in congressional districts which werent crucial for the presidential outcome barring Miami-Dade. 2022 is where it will get interesting provided mail-in ballots reduce and scrutiny on counting increases.
nachiket
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by nachiket »

Vayutuvan wrote: Get Biden into WHOTUS first, redistribute wealth, tax (not so wealthy) to the hilt, and give away the goodies. 2022 us in the bag for Dems - majority in the house and the senate. ka ching for two more years.
Biden maharaj cannot do any of that without full control of the House and Senate. Trump got the trifecta in 2016 and even then he found it difficult. There are always people in your own party who don't like it (like McCain sinking Obamacare repeal). And there are plenty of Democrats in the house itself who won't like going full Socialist because they will be promptly kicked out of their own seats in the next elections. Senate situation is even worse for him.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by ShyamSP »

KLNMurthy wrote:
ShyamSP wrote:
Free circulation of ballots in mail is problem. Mail theft is problem, if voters don't get ballot many don't care or may not be aware they got it.

If results are to tune of 1000s difference, you can do successful ballot harvesting operation to overcome difference. Some states don't have strict signature verification during counting it is easy-peasy there.

Don't tell me the Riot guy openly going to Walmart and looting TVs in front of cops, can be hired to do these jobs.
there is a voter support system called ballotrax that provides SMSes from the point of ballot being mailed to ballot being received at the counting station and being accepted.

Not sure what this riot guy is you are talking about. Are you saying rioters are being hired to do election work? Or maybe you see some black people rioting on TV and see some black election workers and so deciding that rioters are doing vote counting? Please do explain.
Ballot harvesting is I think illegal in Pennsylvania. But as an example a person who loots in front of officer gives to two hoots for consequences of illegal activity, and so can be hired to do whatever is needed for voter fraud. Hope that clears.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Vayutuvan wrote:
Raja wrote: No one is afraid. However, please do consider how easily your logic can be applied to the Trump campaign.
You made my point for me. what is sauce for the goose and all that. my logic applies to both parties. had HRC campaign found voter fraud and challenged in 2016, I would have been all for that as well. then we wouldn't have had 3 years of impeachment tamasha. In fact, while nCV is spreading through US communities, Dems were playing impeachment drama on the hill. how so. people forget that Biden called Trump a xenophobe when Trump admin instituted a travel ban on China.
Lot of people just don't like Trump. He is a repulsive guy. They are not going to be fair to him. Are Trump fans scrupulously fair to Biden or Hillary? Sure anyone can complain, but maybe also look at reality from time to time?

Since Dems weaponizated FISA, there is God possibility that DOj will apply a special counsel to look into Hunter Biden. If the GOP gets control of the senate, which seems very likely, be ready for senate hearings.
Yes, I fully expect Hunter Biden hearings taking up most of Senate time under "china jaamaata" (china son-in-law) Mitch McConnell.

I am surprised that you are able to see this, but still think that Biden is going to be able to do maha- wealth redistribution between now and 2022 and become super-popular and win everything then. Do you really think both things--endless Hunter Biden hearings and Senate rolling over for Biden economic plans(which are actually very far from income redistribution, but let's pretend for a moment they are not)--will go together?
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 10 Nov 2020 01:42, edited 1 time in total.
KLNMurthy
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

ShyamSP wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:
there is a voter support system called ballotrax that provides SMSes from the point of ballot being mailed to ballot being received at the counting station and being accepted.

Not sure what this riot guy is you are talking about. Are you saying rioters are being hired to do election work? Or maybe you see some black people rioting on TV and see some black election workers and so deciding that rioters are doing vote counting? Please do explain.
Ballot harvesting is I think illegal in Pennsylvania. But as an example a person who loots in front of officer gives to two hoots for consequences of illegal activity, and so can be hired to do whatever is needed for voter fraud. Hope that clears.
Not clear at all. Anyone can say something "can" happen, some rioter "can" be hired, black guys "can" be all lawless rioters, cats "can" also be dogs, etc. Doesn't mean that they are "clearly" saying anything that makes any sense.

You still somehow want me to believe that some x rioted in front of police, therefore that same x is being hired to do vote counting because it "can" be done. Sorry, I am too stupid to buy such "clear" logic.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

KLNMurthy wrote:Lot of people just don't like Trump. He is a repulsive guy. They are not going to be fair to him. Are Trump fans scrupulously fair to Biden or Hillary? Sure anyone can complain, but maybe also look at reality from time to time?
...
Yes, I fully expect Hunter Biden hearings taking up most of Senate time under "china jaamaata" (china son-in-law) Mitch McConnell.
"Sure anyone can complain, but maybe also look at reality from time to time?"

People complaining are not anyone. They are either duly elected representatives or lawyers in their employ.

Is it your case that only Coastal Dem lawyers can complain?!!!
What "reality" we have to look at? The "reality" as presented by MSNBC/Twitter/Facebook? That reality didn't pan out, did it?!

"Yes, I fully expect Hunter Biden hearings taking up most of Senate time under "china jaamaata" (china son-in-law) Mitch McConnell"

You are forgetting Beijing Agent who would ascend the throne on Jan 20, 2021.

Why are some people trying to shut down discussion on election fraud? There were some cases and we need to get to the bottom of it. It is not dependent on who supports who.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" -- Hamlet, Act. III, Scene II.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 10 Nov 2020 12:16, edited 1 time in total.
KLNMurthy
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Vayutuvan wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:Lot of people just don't like Trump. He is a repulsive guy. They are not going to be fair to him. Are Trump fans scrupulously fair to Biden or Hillary? Sure anyone can complain, but maybe also look at reality from time to time?
...
Yes, I fully expect Hunter Biden hearings taking up most of Senate time under "china jaamaata" (china son-in-law) Mitch McConnell.
"Sure anyone can complain, but maybe also look at reality from time to time?"

People complaining are not anyone. They are either duly elected representatives and lawyers in their employ.
So... what? I should fall down on my knees and worship every word they say? We are now doing "Do you know who I am?" on BRF?
Is it your case that only Coastal Dem lawyers can complain?!!!
No, but apparently it is your case that arguing against something that was not said is a reasonable and logical thing to do. Am I wrong?
What "reality" we have to look at? The "reality" as presented by MSNBC/Twitter/Facebook? That reality didn't pan out, did it?!
I don't know what you are talking about here or what it has to do with what I said. I read Twitter but don't watch MSNBC (or any TV news) and I don't read FaceBook. I don't use Twitter as a news source. So, I don't know who you are challenging here, it's not me for sure.

The "reality" I talked about--which you failed to quote here--is that Trump is highly disliked, due to his own fault I may add, therefore his haters are not going to be fair to him, as you were demanding. Further, politics is not a game of fairness.
"Yes, I fully expect Hunter Biden hearings taking up most of Senate time under "china jaamaata" (china son-in-law) Mitch McConnell"

You are forgetting Beijing Agent who would ascend the throne on Jan 20, 2021.
Whether Biden is a Beijing agent is, at best, conjecture or speculation, at worst, just a random statement made out of nothing but spite and malice.

Mitch McConnell being China Son-in-law is a fact.

Why are some people trying to shut down discussion on election fraud? There were some cases and we need to get to the bottom of it. It is not dependent on who supports who.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" -- Hamlet, Act. III, Scene II.
Discuss away, Vayutuvan garu. I am putting forth my own views. Should I shut up and leave the floor to you so that you will feel that your "discussion" is not being shut down? Please clarify.

By the way, what's with the random Shakespeare quote, man? More "Do you know who I am?" posturing?
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 10 Nov 2020 02:06, edited 1 time in total.
KJo
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KJo »

KLNMurthy wrote:
IIUC even Fox went along with the projections, so it is not just “leftist” media (actually they are corporate media, far from leftist).

In any US election, official results are declared several days or weeks after election date. And media “declaring” (correct term is “projecting”, only county registrars can declare) the winner using standard statistical techniques on Election Day itself or at most a few days afterwards is very normal, it has been going on for several decades, ever since live counting data has become available.

There is nothing crazy or conspiratorial about this. These projections are wrong extremely rarely. It is basic applied statistics. Almost the only case that even comes close is the 2000 Florida case, in which media mostly waited for the recount process to play out.

In this election, votes in many states were so close that the media statisticians had to wait longer, to get a higher counting percentage before they made their projections. The result was actually clear (though not the exact electoral vote margin) to the statisticians by Wednesday itself, but the media outlets waited till Saturday (when counting was nearly 100% in most contested places) because they didn’t want to look like they were jumping the gun.

You can’t just arbitrarily go around banning this and that in USA—first amendment that guarantees against such a ban is very strictly applied. The constitution doesn’t allow “prior restraint” of what media can say. So there is no way to ban projections.

It is illegal to interfere with voting. Saying something after all voting is over is not an interference in the electoral process. Many election cycles back, they used to start doing projections when voting was over on East coast. Then there were objections that it discouraged west coast people from voting because they may think their votes don’t matter. So they stopped doing that, by mutual consent. Same with exit polls. They don’t use them any more for doing projections any more.

This election breaks new ground due to high turnout and widespread use of mail-in ballots (the option was always there, the volume is new). So there may be some lessons to be learned in this projection process.

Are you claiming that Pfizer did a conspiracy and withheld the vaccine announcement? I wonder, if every corporation and industry and business is busy running a highly-coordinated complex conspiracy, how much time they will have left for actually doing research etc.

You are right about Fox News, but the Fox News is not the Fox News that we know of. Something has changed there. In fact their count for Biden was the highest among all media companies. Except for a couple of show hosts who still are conservative, FN has taken a turn to the Left. I think in a few years it will become CNN.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Ambar »

Newsmax is eating Fox TV's lunch just as Parler has now exploded after the blatant bias Twitter has displayed over the last 5 yrs. Mudroch's daughter in law was ecstatic about Biden's so-called landslide. If someone has enough resources and technical-knowhow there is a large market for an alternative to Facebook .
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

KJo wrote: ...

You are right about Fox News, but the Fox News is not the Fox News that we know of. Something has changed there. In fact their count for Biden was the highest among all media companies. Except for a couple of show hosts who still are conservative, FN has taken a turn to the Left. I think in a few years it will become CNN.
No big mystery about Fox News or big "change" I think. It was clear on Wednesday to everyone who did the calculations (which would include Fox back office guys) that Biden was winning Arizona with extremely high probability. All media except Fox still stayed cautious and didn't announce their projections. Looks like there was some kind of disconnect between Fox management and their on-air announcer guy, who went ahead and announced the AZ projection. That landed him & Fox in trouble with the Rs, but Fox management decided to stick with it. That's what made Fox News's count for Biden higher than others.

Ultimately these are business decisions. Murdochs are highly intelligent business people, and they generally have a finely-tuned sense of how much right-wing-craziness (my opinion) they can sell without completely losing general credibility and slipping into Infowars territory. So-called "change" that people are noticing, and some people are complaining about, is nothing but a tactical shift by top management. They have done it before--their on-air guy scolded Newt Gingrich (IIRC) who was on the panel, for not accepting Obama's re-election projection in the 2012 election. That didn't change them into Obamaites ovenight.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Ambar »

Other than Tucker Carlson, Ingram and Hannity there's no one worth watching on Fox anymore. Highly intelligent people don't call elections with 20% counting. No wonder their rating crashed from 1 to 3 on Saturday, its almost Tanishq like shooting yourself in the foot logic to abandon 71 m (plus hundreds of thousands more whose votes were turned) viewers who are your bread and butter.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

nachiket wrote:And there are plenty of Democrats in the house itself who won't like going full Socialist because they will be promptly kicked out of their own seats in the next elections. Senate situation is even worse for him.


Firstly, your assumption that they will go "full socialist" - whatever that means - is not correct. There are shades of "socialism" from full capitalism to full socialism.

Secondly, it is not guaranteed that GOP will get both the GA senate seats. Dollars to donuts, KD Harris's replacement would be a Democrat. Newsome is going to pick the replacement :((

What worked during Presidential elections might work for Dems. It is plain hard grassroots campaigning coupled with a little bit of ballot harvesting here and a few votes from dead people, with large scale mail-in ballots.

We are not out of the woods yet re. COVID, are we?!!! :twisted:

Biden/Harris already caste aspersions on Trump admin short-circuiting vaccine trials. How many of the 79 million who voted for Biden/Harris have confidence in the efficacy and safety of the vaccine now?

Lockdowns, here I come. That said, they are not being proven effective in Europe. Biden will pack CDC first with his own people first, restart funding to WHO, who would do the bidding of Xi.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 10 Nov 2020 03:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

KLNMurthy wrote: Whether Biden is a Beijing agent is, at best, conjecture or speculation, at worst, just a random statement made out of nothing but spite and malice.
We would not know unless there is a special counsel. McConnel is not the POTUS (elect!). Mark my words, Biden and co. will shut down whatever investigations that are going on.

How soon we forget that Trump was called a Russian agent in the WHOTUS by the same networks who are "call"ing the election for Biden now.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

KLNMurthy wrote: So... what? I should fall down on my knees and worship every word they say? We are now doing "Do you know who I am?" on BRF?
How did you go from what I wrote to this? You don't have to worship anybody. Courts will decide who will pay for the crimes, if any were committed. In the end, nobody is above the law. Isn't that what Dems had been saying for the past several years now? GOP said the same thing regarding Hillary C. Same with Obama. The tragedy was that he was never really questioned for his telling Medvedev that he would have more flexibility after the elections.

Let me remind you that it was not a given that Obama would win the 2012 elections. While it was not very close, polls were not as optimistic as this time around for Biden.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 10 Nov 2020 03:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

KLNMurthy wrote: Discuss away, Vayutuvan garu. I am putting forth my own views. Should I shut up and leave the floor to you so that you will feel that your "discussion" is not being shut down? Please clarify.
au contraire. I haven't said anything to that effect. I was just wondering out loud. What agendas are driving some to proclaim that "Nothing to see here, move on".
By the way, what's with the random Shakespeare quote, man? More "Do you know who I am?" posturing?
The quote is for the Dem officials who are saying that there is no widespread electoral fraud. It is a strawman. There are several avenues Trump team is trying to explore as for my understanding.

1. If the margin of winning is <= 0.5%, it will automatically trigger recounting. They are asking for that where feasible. In GA, it is 0.7%. There the state officials, GOP, might allow a recount.

2. Mail-in ballots are double the number that was received in 2016. There was (and still is) widespread belief that mail-in ballots are rife for election fraud and ballot harvesting. That needs to be looked into, for the sake of protecting future elections. Two important senate run-offs are going to be held in just two months.

3. Legality of PA SC extending the deadline. There is some question as to whether that is constitutional. State legislature is the final adjudicator to change any of these laws. Did PA SC overstep their authority?
...
...

An autopsy needs to be done as per the law and any mistakes corrected even if it doesn't happen by Jan 20, 2021.

That is the point.

Just because somebody is asking to let the cases work through the legal system doesn't mean that they are for Trump or Blind Biden bhakt - BBB
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Vayutuvan wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: Whether Biden is a Beijing agent is, at best, conjecture or speculation, at worst, just a random statement made out of nothing but spite and malice.
We would not know unless there is a special counsel. McConnel is not the POTUS (elect!). Mark my words, Biden and co. will shut down whatever investigations that are going on.

How soon we forget that Trump was called a Russian agent in the WHOTUS by the same networks who are "call"ing the election for Biden now.
Maybe there will be. If a R admin can appoint a Mueller, and before that a D Clinton administration appoint a Ken Starr, ...

If you want to claim that China alluDu McConnell as Senate Majority Leader doesn't have commensurate power with the President, I guess that's your prerogative, but don't expect it to carry any credibility with me.

Your comparison of the networks' bias in 2016 vs 2020 is faulty. No one in the media questioned the vote count in 2016, all the media called it for Trump, without challenging, on the day of the vote itself.

The Russian interference thing had to do with Rs allegedly getting info on Ds from Russians, nothing to do with the voting process at all.

I think you know better than to do obvious apples & oranges comparisons like this. Not sure why you are doing it here.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

KLNMurthy wrote:So... what? I should fall down on my knees and worship every word they say? We are now doing "Do you know who I am?" on BRF?
If you know who I am, then you will do :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :oops:
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

KLNMurthy wrote:Your comparison of the networks' bias in 2016 vs 2020 is faulty. No one in the media questioned the vote count in 2016, all the media called it for Trump, without challenging, on the day of the vote itself.
It is not the network bias that I am questioning. That is there. I am questioning the faulty polling. They were wrong in 2016 and they were proved wrong this time around as well. Have Media and SM become so powerful that there the time has come to hold some of them accountable? Not by the government but by the people.

The problem is that there are no neutral outlets anymore. Maybe just capitalism and competition will sort out the grain from the chaff.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Vayutuvan wrote: ...
1. If the margin of winning is <= 0.5%, it will automatically trigger recounting. They are asking for that where feasible. In GA, it is 0.7%. There the state officials, GOP, might allow a recount.
Is that exactly correct? I thought the rule was that one can ask for a recount & pay the fees, but the margin has to be < 1% for the request to be accepted. Maybe it varies from state to state as do most things.
2. Mail-in ballots are double the number that was received in 2016. There was (and still is) widespread belief that mail-in ballots are rife for election fraud and ballot harvesting. That needs to be looked into, for the sake of protecting future elections. Two important senate run-offs are going to be held in just two months.
Only double? I would have thought it was even more, due to Covid worries.

There is no question that the volume of mail-in ballots is unprecedented, and there will probably be many problems with it. Future elections will no doubt see some adjustments or even major changes. CA has been monkeying around with the nuts & bolts of the ballot process like crazy in the past 2-3 election cycles. I suspect they have McKinsey or some of the other biggies telling them what to do. Because especially for the off-year elections, they have been getting pathetic turnout levels, sometimes < 10%.

(You don't have to believe me, but state / county offices and election officials of whatever party are, for the most part, not in the business of destroying the credibility of their own process. I don't know if you ever worked with local-level government officials, but most of them (at the middle management level), whatever the party, are pretty sincere people, who still have to operate within bureaucratic rules, so someone looking at their work from outside may think they are slow or stupid or ill-intentioned. At the higher / executive level, it is more of a mixed bag, they tend to be political appointments, and you are lucky if you get someone that is sincere and competent.)

I think the states were faced with a dilemma. Suppose some purple state didn't do full-blast mailing of ballots, and left it for people to request them. If the Dems won in that scenario, the Rs would have still cursed them for making it harder for supposedly Republican elderly to vote by mail (for example), so "conspiring" to make them lose. If they made the full-blast decision, and Dems won, the Rs would curse them in the way they are doing now. (If the Rs had won, I would assume they would have faced something equivalent from the Dem side).

They had to land on some decision, which they did, and they are paying the expected price. From the public pov, I think a reasonable, intelligent analysis would have shown some understanding of the process, instead of jumping right away into incendiary conspiracy rhetoric.

3. Legality of PA SC extending the deadline. There is some question as to whether that is constitutional. State legislature is the final adjudicator to change any of these laws. Did PA SC overstep their authority?
...
...
That's in the lap of the SC as I understand. The Rs may win this one as they have a reasonable case.
An autopsy needs to be done as per the law and any mistakes corrected even if it doesn't happen by Jan 20, 2021.

That is the point.

Just because somebody is asking to let the cases work through the legal system doesn't mean that they are for Trump or Blind Biden bhakt - BBB
I am quite sure there will be plenty of "autopsy" that will happen: media, academia, and of course the political world. To paraphrase one famous Reality Show Politician, "there will be so much autopsy, you will be tired of autopsy."

By the way, you should be putting a smiley after your Blind Biden Bhakt crack. Do you really think such a creature exists? Someone who is so excited by, and and enamoured of Biden? He won the Primary and the General, precisely because he is dull and non-threatening, and there is no such animal as a BBB.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 10 Nov 2020 03:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Ambar wrote:Other than Tucker Carlson, Ingram and Hannity ...
In fact, better shows are Outnumbered and The Five. I like Outnumbered more because Mary Harp, Leslie Marshall, and Jessica Tarlov are all very sharp. Katy Pavlich is very sharp from GOP side. They also bring in Donna Brazile from time to time. I find her to be superb too. She should have been the DNC chair during the runup to 2020.

The Five at Five is a more humorous take. I like Juan Williams and the wit of Greg Gutfeld. Katie Pavlich is there sometimes.

Tucker Carlson is not that hot. He cuts off people if they proceed to refute his arguments/theories. I haven't watched Ingraham al that much. She certainly is tough. Hannity is the absolute bottom of the barrel. If anybody watched Hannity and Colmes for any amount of time would know that Hannity had been propped big time by Fox.

Added later: I forgot to add Chris Wallace's show on Sundays. He usually has (pre-covid when they were doing the show in the studio) two GOP and two Dem analysts on his panel. He also gives equal time to all concerned. His Dem guests are no slouches either. If you want to watch one show on Fox news per week, this is the one to watch. Then Media Buzz is also quite good. Sundays 12 Noon EST.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 10 Nov 2020 05:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Vayutuvan wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:So... what? I should fall down on my knees and worship every word they say? We are now doing "Do you know who I am?" on BRF?
If you know who I am, then you will do :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :oops:
Yeah touche.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

KLNMurthy wrote:
Is that exactly correct? I thought the rule was that one can ask for a recount & pay the fees, but the margin has to be < 1% for the request to be accepted. Maybe it varies from state to state as do most things. (1)

There is no question that the volume of mail-in ballots is unprecedented, and there will probably be many problems with it (2). Future elections will no doubt see some adjustments or even major changes.
(1) I think the cut off varies from state to state. In case of GA, it is 0.5% but the margin is 0.7%. Somebody on Fox (well there is that!) was saying that it is close enough to 0.5% that the Governor might allow a recount.

(2) In the past, Thurgood Marshall (IIRC) warned against mail-in and absentee ballots. NYT also wrote articles on the ills of mail-in ballots.

As for the county officials, I concur. they are mostly sincere and hardworking.

The problem is more to do with opportunistic ballot stuffing. Even if there was some of that, it wouldn't be enough to change the final results, even in a close election.

If anybody disbelieves that, just note how long it takes to count from 1 to 1000, multiply that by 100. That would be a lower bound on stuffing 1000 ballots. (All numbers I pulled out of my hat, but I am sure people would get the point).
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 10 Nov 2020 12:24, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2020 US election results discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

nachiket wrote:
saip wrote:in AZ Biden's lead is evaporating. Do I hear Democrats screaming?
In GA finally Dems flipped ONE SINGLE SOLITARY Congress seat in the whole country.
Considering that the ballots are the same I am wondering how and why the Democrats would rig the presidential one and not the COngressional seat down the ballot. :mrgreen:
Therein lies the problem. Nationally, several hundred thousand ballots were marked for Biden and no down ballot selection which is problematic.

In the US there are two problems which has manifested itself in the 2020 US election:
1. There is no consistent checking of identification from state to state. In India there are over 850 million people who have biometric photo voter IDs.
2. Mail-in ballots are subject to more vote fraud, particularly unsolicited ballots (this is where the individual did not request a ballot), where political parties and entities can harvest and submit ballots. Mamta Banerjee and Laloo would have a field day with this system. They would ensure a free and fair election, but we would all know the outcome.

As it stands today, less than 100,000 votes in GA, PA, WI, MI, AZ, and NV have made the difference in the election.
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