Project 75I - It Begins

[nachiket]

AFAIK, requirement has still not been dropped.

Then the P75I project will remain a farce. So many years after it was started there isn't a single viable SSK candidate anywhere with a VLS plug, especially one which can fit the Brahmos (scale models and khayali pulao notwithstanding). The IN should take the hint and make changes.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 11909?s=20 ---> Report: Indian Navy to finally issue RFP for 6 P-75I submarines (SSKs) next month (Nov '20). Selection process expected to be quicker than P-75.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 28032?s=20 ---> Expected to first Indian subs equipped with a 5 MW Li-Ion batteries.

[Aditya G]

Navy requirements in combination are the "perfect storm" of project complexity, cost and timelines;

- Support Brahmos sized VLS
- New generation AIP (viz older models such as MESMA)
- High Indian components and make in India
- Strategic Partner route
- We can safely assume IN will have high standards all round on noise, range, sensors etc

Simply put, there is no single submarine in the world today that fulfills these requirements. By asking to create a brand new submarine we will not benefit from costs that would have already been amortized by OEM.

[John]

AFAIK, requirement has still not been dropped.

I believe it was dropped Brahmos Corp has said that they were working on Brahmos NG for P-75i requirements. I remember reading another report stating they have shelved the sub launched vanilla Brahmos but it is available if navy renews its interest I will dry to dig it up,

https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/india-d ... ubmarines/

[Philip]

Nachi,I beg to differ.SoKo has just launched its second KSS-3 class of large conv. boats,3800t ( submerged) to boot (pun intended!), the first conv. subs with a VLS plug for its LACMs.
Some details:

Batch -1. 3800t,. X 2 boats.
83.5m X 9.6m X 7.2m draft.
10,000km range at eco. speed.
20kts. max speed.
Crew 50.
8 std.TT
6 X VLS Cheon Ryong LACMs.

Batch-2 X 3 boats.
4000t dpl.
10 X VLS
Li-on batteries
Superconductor TDS plant,all- electric prop.

Batch-3 X 3 boats.
More advanced tech
All 8 to be completed by 2029.

These will be the most sophisticated conv. boats in this decade of any navy.,given both their size and large number of weaponry. OZ's French conv. Barracuda subs are labouring heavily ina sea of red tape at the moment with no idea when they will taste salt water! If the IN wants VLS for the P-75I then its best bet is an Ru design,Amur or a newer design,with the DRDO AIP system and a 8/10 cell VLS plug as shown for some years on Amur models.

Various western cos.,British,French,etc. are providing it with selected key tech.SoKo learnt a lot from building a large number of German AIP U-boats and along with Japan are the leading sub builders of Asia ( conv. boats).

[nachiket]

^^The Cheon Ryong (Hyunmoo-3) missile is half the weight of the Brahmos and 2.4m shorter in length. And still they needed a rather large 3750t displacement submarine to fit the VLS. Now imagine the size of the submarine needed needed for a 6-Brahmos VLS plug. Besides, the Koreans don't seem to be in the running for P75I anyway.

[arvin]

Koreans are in fray for P75I. They and Navantia were allowed last minute entry.

[Rakesh]

Title of article below does not necessarily match the content in the article. But FWIW....

After Rafale Jets, India Quietly Working With France To Acquire Stealth Submarines In A Multi-Billion Dollar Deal
https://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=992838
06 Nov 2020

[Aditya G]

Can the Arihant not be converted to a SSK variant? Should be easy given that it has at least an outward commonality with Kilo class subs.

[kit]

Nachi,I beg to differ.....

The South Korean submarine and stealth fighter planes seem to follow very similar pattern where they go through incremental improvements with each follow-on variant to achieve the optimum 5th gen fighter and a high tech stealth sub as well. A very good plan to follow for India as well !!

[Philip]

There have been for over a decade models, drawings showing Amur/ Lada with a plug carrying 8 or 10 BMos/ Onix missiles. The 10 missile plug shows a slight hump of about 1m aft of the sail.There is nothing to suggest that Rubin,or Malachite for that matter cannot design and build a conv. boat that can carry BMos in a VLS plug.Those designs were for a boat of around 2500t.,smaller than the KSS-3.

The Q is why does the IN want a super-heavy conv. boat with BMos when it can acquire more N-boats like Akulas and plans for an SSN class too? Kalibir aboard Ru Kilos are doing v.well in recent attacks in Syria. Klub with the M-3.5 terminal warhead are already in use aboard our upgraded Kilos.It will reduce the number of torpedoes carried though, but a Kilo class boat of 3000t costs only around $350 now,much cheaper than a super-heavy KSS type, which would enable us to have more number of boats in the IOR.The shallower littoral waters in the Arabian Sea favour smaller,stealthier boats. The Japanese and SoKo have both littoral as well as blue water Pacific operations,plus combating the PLAN in waters within the " first island chain".For the IN,Akula SSGNs and SSNs of between 6000t-8000t for blue water ops beyond the IOR with a loadout of around 40+ weapons ,which could include the SMART missile, LRCMs like Kalibir/ Nirbhay ,plus the hypersonic BMos when it arrives, would be ideal to combat the PLAN,both surface and subsurface. Our conv.AIP boats should prioritise ASW first, while performing regular anti-surface,ISR,mining,etc. duties.

[Vivek K]

Can the Arihant not be converted to a SSK variant? Should be easy given that it has at least an outward commonality with Kilo class subs.

[sarcasm on]Of course not! Dhoti shivering, rice eating, yindoos cannot do such things. [/sarcasm off]
That is the puzzling part. India can attempt the extremely difficult project but cannot accomplish a DE conversion.

[Rakesh]

The first tweet below is from June 2013. That is 7.5 years ago.

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 79072?s=20 ---> Dec 2012: Indian Navy chief says $10bn P-75i submarine RFP to go out "soon"

Today: P-seventy-what?

^^^^ This tweet below, is in response to the tweet above

https://twitter.com/sneheshphilip/statu ... 22945?s=20 ---> This tweet has aged well. Even now it is said that the RFP for P75i will be out soon. A true reflection of how our defence procurement system is. Really sad.

[Philip]

Just a quick note.In anarticle about the needfor a mes SSN for the US,the cost of Japan's latest diesel boat is given.A staggering $ $722.0+ M a boat! The est. of the proposed 23,000t new attack sub ,why it's being questioned,is over 4 times that much,closer to $3 B a pop.One could get 7 conv.boats in one calculation.

The IN should resis the temptationof going either Japan's or SoKo's way where large conv. boats attempt to box above their weight like N -subs. The 10 yr. lease for our 12,000t Akula-2 w
was $1B.The sub may be offered to us for sale or extended lease for far less. Our P-75I subs should be cost-effective too,costing no more than $ 500M,when a 3000t Kilo costs today only around $350M . These subs should be tasked for ASW/ ASuW with land attack secondary, better performed by a new SSGN class with a loadout of 70+ LRCMs.

[Philip]

X-posted in the UAV/drone td.The RMA happening thanks to sub-launched attack drones/UCAVs.

The IN should take serious note of what is happening and the immense extra capability that the above is bringing to undersea warfare. Thos calls for larger subs with a useful loadout of UCAVs as described,which requires larger N-subs. Therefore,the IN should increase the number of Akulas on lease to around 4 and kickstart the desi SSN programme as priority along with the SSBN programme which is the foundation of our strat. deterrent.Even smaller conv. boats could be drone equipped at least for surveillance,etc.,but better if they were silo launched not using up space inside the main torpedo room reducing the number of std. weaponry that the sub would carry.Alternatively a pod could be developed for use similar to the special forces' modules located on the hull abaft of the sail.

[ks_sachin]

X-posted in the UAV/drone td.The RMA happening thanks to sub-launched attack drones/UCAVs.

The IN should take serious note of what is happening and the immense extra capability that the above is bringing to undersea warfare. Thos calls for larger subs with a useful loadout of UCAVs as described,which requires larger N-subs. Therefore,the IN should increase the number of Akulas on lease to around 4 and kickstart the desi SSN programme as priority along with the SSBN programme which is the foundation of our strat. deterrent.Even smaller conv. boats could be drone equipped at least for surveillance,etc.,but better if they were silo launched not using up space inside the main torpedo room reducing the number of std. weaponry that the sub would carry.Alternatively a pod could be developed for use similar to the special forces' modules located on the hull abaft of the sail.

Ok we will lead a delegation to the Naval Chief to impress upon him your point!!!

[wig]

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... oon-175885
Tender for more stealth submarines soon
extracts

formal tender states the request for proposal (RFP) is expected any time now. Known as ‘Project 75-India’, it will be done under the strategic partnership model policy to make conventional diesel-electric vessels.

[John]

Please stick to topic this is P-75i thread.

[Rakesh]

Un-necessary posts have been deleted. Any further derailment of the thread will result in bans. Thank You.

[Philip]

Has any timeframe been given for evaluation,etc. of the offers? It's going to be a long drawn-out process with 6+ contenders,and another decade before the first boat hits water.There hax to be a faster way to augment the subfleet otherwise we
will be up the creek without a paddle when the PLAN saturate the IOR with subs along with the subs they're building for Pakis.

[John]

^ When the tender is sent out we will know more details.

[fanne]

i have a question - We have ToT from HDW deal (paid separately) and also from Scorpion deal (paid separately and was reason for the delay in the program, as French were not complying with the ToT), so why do we need foreign help for 75i? Why cant we make our own? If not a new evolved design, a copy and paste of the existing ones?

[Aditya G]

i have a question - We have ToT from HDW deal (paid separately) and also from Scorpion deal (paid separately and was reason for the delay in the program, as French were not complying with the ToT), so why do we need foreign help for 75i? Why cant we make our own? If not a new evolved design, a copy and paste of the existing ones?

The original scheme was:

Project-75: build 6 European subs on 1 line
Project-75I: build 6 Russian subs on 2nd line
Project-76: build 12 new subs on own design

[kit]

http://www.spsnavalforces.com/story/?id=339&h=Deadly-Submarines---Global-Programmes

HDW class 212A and 214 submarines were the first in the world to undertake extra long dives independent of external air sources, equipped with a high-performance fuel cell propulsion system.

HDW Class 209/1400mod

The HDW class 209/1400mod submarine is the most recent version of the HDW class 209 “family” in a line of 63 boats contracted with 14 customer navies. Like all its predecessors, HDW class 209/1400mod is a compact and reliable submarine featuring most recent technology, high combat strength, extraordinary battery payload and low signatures.

HDW Class 210mod

ThyssenKrupp has developed the submarine designated HDW class 210mod, an advanced, compact diesel-electric submarine to carry out domestic and international missions and tasks. Its relatively small size with a surface displacement of only approx. 1,150 tonnes makes the boat especially suited for a wide scope of missions in littoral as well as blue water areas.

HDW Class 212A

The submarines of the first and second batches of HDW class 212A can rightly be called “the peak of German submarine technology”. In line with the German basic design concept, this non-nuclear but air-independent submarine remains compact, with a high payload in the field of sensors, communication equipment, weapon control systems and weapons. Extreme attention has been paid to efficiency and energy management on board. The combination of these factors with the non-magnetic construction and acoustically optimised equipment resulted in submarines that are nearly impossible to detect.

HDW Class 214

It is well equipped to undertake a wide scope of missions ranging from operations in littoral waters to ocean-going patrols. The modular weapon and sensor mix, in combination with the submarine’s air-independent features, makes the HDW class 214 predestined for anti-surface ship and anti-submarine operations; surveillance, etc.

HDW Class 216

HDW class 216 submarine is a long-range multi-mission two-deck fuel cell submarine with exceptional endurance. It features two pressure-tight compartments, high crew comfort levels and an extremely flexible payload for weapons and mission-orientated exchangeable equipment enhanced by the innovative vertical multi-purpose lock (VMPL).

The Italian Navy has also decided in favour of a second batch of two HDW class 212A submarines, which are being built under licence by the Italian shipyard Fincantieri. That means that the Italian Navy will soon also have four boats of this class available for operations

Scorpene submarines

The Scorpene 1000 and 2000 are new-generation, conventional-propulsion submarines. Of an intermediate size and highly capable in terms of mobility and discretion, they are suited to a very broad range of operations. With 14 submarines sold, the Scorpene 2000 has now become an essential reference for conventional-propulsion attack submarines for navies all around the world. After Chile and Malaysia, India and Brazil have also placed orders with DCNS as part of transfer of technology programmes. This versatile and high-endurance submarine can carry out missions both in the open ocean and in coastal waters. Extremely stealthy and fast, it has a level of operating automation that allows the crew to be limited to 25, which reduces its operating costs significantly. The Scorpene 1000, the direct descendant of the Scorpene 2000, combines cutting-edge design with a high level of stealth, manoeuvrability and speed. While its small size and high degree of discretion allow it to excel in coastal waters, it nevertheless remains a formidable adversary in deep waters. Its latest-generation combat system can deploy the most recent heavy torpedoes and anti-ship missiles, thus endowing this submarine with a particularly dissuasive firepower

[Rakesh]

i have a question - We have ToT from HDW deal (paid separately) and also from Scorpion deal (paid separately and was reason for the delay in the program, as French were not complying with the ToT), so why do we need foreign help for 75i? Why cant we make our own? If not a new evolved design, a copy and paste of the existing ones?

I hope you now understand the "true" meaning of ToT. There is never ToT (Transfer of Technology), there is only ToP (Transfer of Production).

Project 75I will also only be ToP. The 114 MRFA deal will also only be ToP. That is how it has always been and always will be.

[Cain Marko]

^ Don't you know saar - everybody loves Top ka maal!

[Vivek K]

i have a question - We have ToT from HDW deal (paid separately) and also from Scorpion deal (paid separately and was reason for the delay in the program, as French were not complying with the ToT), so why do we need foreign help for 75i? Why cant we make our own? If not a new evolved design, a copy and paste of the existing ones?

I hope you now understand the "true" meaning of ToT. There is never ToT (Transfer of Technology), there is only ToP (Transfer of Production).

Project 75I will also only be ToP. The 114 MRFA deal will also only be ToP. That is how it has always been and always will be.

Actually in other countries ToP is accompanied by reverse engineering. And that perhaps is our Achilles Heel. Without reverse engineering and the limited ToT (screwdrivergiri), we will never be masters of the tech.

In the case of Arty, we have been able to take ToP to local development. But in the case of fighters and subs we have shown no initiative. The forces are complacent and prefer imports pleading national security as cover. There used to be some initiative earlier - i.e. Gnat to Ajeet development. But no tinkering of any kind appears to have been done to Mig-21/23/25/27/29 or Su 30 MKI.

[Rakesh]

Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems of Germany and Naval Group of France have upped their game in the Project 75I program. TKMS is offering the Type 218SG (earlier offering was Type 214) and Naval Group is offering SMX 3.0 (earlier offering was enlarged Scorpene). See below.

Project 75 India: A new era of submarine warfare
https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/60 ... ne-warfare
09 Dec 2020

Invincible Class submarine ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincibl ... _submarine

SMX 3.0 ---> https://www.asiapacificdefensejournal.c ... 0-vls.html

[Vips]

Just like MMRCA, the competitors are forced to offer better/newer platforms to win the tender. Sarkari babus indulging in multiple rounds of chai-biskoot does have some advantages

Buying strategic and big ticket items from countries which are not P5 members makes little sense unless of course these countries compensate their lack of diplomatic heft (and support to us) by offering deep and clear TOT (Real TOT) of their wares.

[Rakesh]

I am not sure about the specs of the Type 218SG. But if the offer to India came with the non-magnetic steel hull of the Type 212, the water ram expulsion system for torpedo launches (not sure if that is there on the Type 214 sold to foreign customers) and Lithium Ion batteries, it would be nice. Perhaps in future refits, the Kalvari Class can also incorporate it. I know the IN is looking to refit her boats with LI batteries.

SMX 3.0 exists only in brochures and is a smaller version of the RAN's Attack Class (the non-nuclear variant of the Barracuda SSN). Not much is known. The only thing I have found is that the F21 torpedo is part of the weapons package on SMX 3.0 and that is one of the torpedoes that the Indian Navy is looking at to arm the Kalvari (Scorpene) Class boats.

There will be no ToT. That term is a red herring. Used by Babus and Politicians to fool the citizenry that something of value is coming into the country. Only ToP (Transfer of Production) will come. Project 75 supposedly was ToT. What did we learn?

[schinnas]

ToT is a mirage. Even if some real ToT is negotiated, India would need sufficient in-house advanced design and R&D capabilities to fully leverage the ToT.

Best would be to do what Indian private auto makers did. Build domestic manufacturing, servicing and testing and design capabilities. Acquire an advanced foreign manufacturer to help take it to the next level. A great example would be Tata Motors buying Jaguar Land Rover and within a decade fundamentally transforming the design, quality and market position of Indian consumer cars from Tata stables. Mahindra had a more muted but still a success story with its Korean acquisition.

L&T or Pipavav should buy out one of the Spanish shipbuilding companies capable of designing and making advanced submarines and frigades. A lucrative order to Spain for P-95I can be placed in exchange for Spain agreeing to such an acquisition. Sort of any such major play, we should stick with buying the best possible futuristic platform with extensible design by France (who is a P5 member and has proved to be strategically reliable partner who would cave less to US and China) and use the opportunity to reverse engineer and build Indian design and manufacturing capabilities.

[Rakesh]

This boat is the South Korean offering in the Project 75I program.

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/133 ... 43398?s=20 ---> Dosan Ahn Changho Class breaks the world record for the longest continuous operation among diesel submarines! It is not cleared yet, but if the AIP achieved for longest run under water then the endurance must be 100+ days, this is massive.

[Philip]

Sharing the sub- launched drone concept with a pal in the know of things ,and asking him what "dark arts" the IN had up its sleeve,his chum in the IN is supposed to have said," Drones? Let them give us torpedoes first!"
In allusion to the sad fact that our new Scorpenes still do not have modern torpedoes because of the fallout of the AW scandal where the whole group is being targeted at instead of just AW. This is where the DM MUST listen too and take good advice
from his service chiefs and prevent MOD babudom from sabotaging acquisitions which only hurt the preparedness of the military.

[chola]

This boat is the South Korean offering in the Project 75I program.

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/133 ... 43398?s=20 ---> Dosan Ahn Changho Class breaks the world record for the longest continuous operation among diesel submarines! It is not cleared yet, but if the AIP achieved for longest run under water then the endurance must be 100+ days, this is massive.

Direct descendant of the Type 209 that Korea acquired ToT around the same time we did.

[Aditya G]

This boat may be the best in the world - but a strategic acquisition has to be from a strategic partner - like France or Russia. We need more than just boats for our money - eg South Korea has no veto in UNSC.

This boat is the South Korean offering in the Project 75I program.

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/133 ... 43398?s=20 ---> Dosan Ahn Changho Class breaks the world record for the longest continuous operation among diesel submarines! It is not cleared yet, but if the AIP achieved for longest run under water then the endurance must be 100+ days, this is massive.

[putnanja]

What prevents scorpene from offering a much better price as they already have most of the infrastructure/logistics established for current batch of 6? Ideally would have liked another order of 6 with upgrades

[Philip]

Logically,that perhaps was the plan earlier. In today'x context there are 3 major factors against it.

First MESMA AIP is inferior to fuel-cell tech,why even the Pakis who have it on their Agostas are preferring Chinko built Swedish Stirling engine AIP systems for their 8 Yuan class subs under construction.

Secondly,the Scorpenes are v.expensive.French components cost a lot. Huge cost escalation in the programme,5 yr. delays. Missiles,only subsonic Exocet SM,vastly inferior both in range and speed ( Klub terminal warhead M 3.5) to our Ru Klub variants,anti-ship,land attack and anti-sub. 200km Kalibir is the same Klub without MTCR restrictions.Our existing Kilos can carry them.

Thirdly, the Scorpene leak has exposed vital operating parameters of the sub and the French also won the OZ contract with a key assuarance that they would never give India the same / better sub tech!

We should go in for a G-2-G deal with Germany for new U-boat SSKs ,we've operated the U-209/1500s v.well over the years, and a second line of an Ru conv.design BMos/ Kalibir / Nirbhay capable to replace the Kilos as they start retiring.We need around 24 AIP conv. boats in addition to our N-boats.
Extra Akulas SSGNs on lease for a total of 4 plus the 6 SSNs in addition to the SSBNs which don't count as they're dedicated for strategic defence.

[Vivek K]

Any industrialized nation in the world would build her own boats after so many decades of tech transfer has occurred. Just goes to highlight - a) our mental blockage in believing in our own innovation and b) the boys with toys attitude prevalent in India.

Therefore India has a patchwork of equipment for armed forces. IAF - French/British/UK/German/US while IN - Russian/French/German/British. The army too has arty, carbines and other equipment from all over. The logistical challenge by itself makes war fighting a nightmare.

Yet you see Indians lust for everything and anything foreign!

Even the ability to produce nuke subs indigenously has not changed the Indian mindset. In any other nation this would have resulted in local yards being employed to produce the diesel electric design.

[m_saini]

^ imo, some of the blame also goes to our ability (or inability) to market things. You see the Gripens or the bandars being touted as 6th gen tech while i doubt most of the mango/semi-mango indians even know about our nuke subs.

The whole insas/arjun saga and propaganda stories like the "left sub hatch open" etc leaves very little confidence in the mind of ordinary indian in our own ability. Need to run a very tight ship and control media stories if we want the general population to pressure the babus and politicians to go local.

[Vivek K]

Marketing is definitely a problem. However the Mir Jaffars that unfortunately still abound put paid to all accomplishments. If a foreign system fails, the failure is ascribed to domestic consumables, if a domestic system fails the failure is ascribed to design deficiencies. Several hundred Mig-21s crashed and more importantly, well trained, irreplaceable pilots were lost. But this never taught the buyer that perhaps the flaw may be in the ability to maintain complicated, high performance, imported weapon systems over long periods. The Mig-21s have been in service since the late 60s.

Only a flourishing domestic industry can support a the needs of a nation that wants to be a power capable of projecting power away from her borders/shores.

Has anyone ever thought - what is the purpose of transfer of technology? Is it a stop gap till the next transfer of technology? Or is it supposed to be an enabler for future "domestic" development? Or are the buyers fooling the public to raise the prices by deliberately calling "Transfer of Production", as "transfer of technology"?

After TOT from HDW and Scorpene, using foreign tech or equipment for the P-75I requirement will be treason. All officials that inked these previous deals must go through tax audits to identify their assets and income sources and put behind bars for looting the taxpayer.