2020 US election results discussion

[Cyrano]

Is that so? Despite Trump doing more for Blacks and minorities than any other President in the history of America ? LoL.

[ShyamSP]

Is that so? Despite Trump doing more for Blacks and minorities than any other President in the history of America ? LoL.

That is to do with demographic and political shifts and realignments. What I was saying in last few posts that voting system is fraud prone especially this year to large extent and Democrats can game the system better. I don't mean Republicans are saints or discussions mean Biden loses.

For example, there is 10-15% shift in Asian Americans including Indian Americans towards Republicans. This doesn't mean they can win elections. For example House Rep Ro Khanna won but lost 3-4 % voteshare that went to Indian-American Republican candidate.

[Mort Walker]

*Verification - As an example in California, one can theoritically cross border across from Mexico, get driving license and vote in California. That how bad system is.

So its like Mamata Banerjee/Congress guys using illegal Bangladeshis, giving them ration cards or aadhar's and using them as a vote bank ?

Worse than that. It is like TMC is in charge of polling locations and then state election commission, pretending to be neutral but filled with TMC cadres, accept postal ballots which are not verified and arrive after the day of election from Bangladesh itself. TMC wins!

[mappunni]

Coming to polling fraud there was a recent incident in Dallas, Texas. This is not related to Presidential election but a mayoral election. The guy (Mohamed) requested absentee ballots and doing fraudulent activity. The guy himself was a candidate contesting. Imagine if a single guy like him, possibly immigrant can trick the system, what can a organized group of leftists and islamists could do?

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/10/08/car ... ter-fraud/

Whether Trump gets the WH office or not, the system need to be cleaned up, fraudsters and criminals be punished for a better, secure polling system for future of democracy.

Agree with Rony his take on NYT/Wapo/CNN/NPR/BBC. Bunch of leftist media. Long timers in BRF should be knowing that by now.

The Denton county sheriff was suspicious when the absentee ballot was ordered in the name of a non-existent senior housing. Otherwise, this would not have been caught.

[saip]

Saying something COULD happen is not equivalent to saying something DID happen. That is the way courts function. 'Beyond reasonable doubt' or 'Preponderance of Evidence', depending on what type of case, come to mind. That is the way it has been and that is the way it should be.

All they have to prove frauds happened. Dead people voting is clear case one type of frauds.

Theoretically, Legislature and/or court can declare fraud and they don't need to invalidate all votes. Legislature can ask Electors to vote for the other candidate.

Voting in election is to indicate preference of Presidential candidate only.


All this can be solved if Trump concedes. Hence a lot of propaganda in main stream media and twitters - "Trump, you are sore loser, why don't you concede?"

Technically, we are NOT voting to decide the President but casting our votes to ELECT THE MEMBERS OF THE ELECTORAL COLLEGEb in each state. Each party in each state decides who will be in the slate of the electoral college in that state to represent that party. That is the reason why we have so few 'faithless voters'.
As I indicated before if Trump does NOT concede and keeps this going till Jan 6th, then President will be elected by the NEW House of Representatives. In that election, as far as I can tell, Trump seems to have the majority.

[chetak]

via whatsapp

[saip]

Saying something COULD happen is not equivalent to saying something DID happen. That is the way courts function. 'Beyond reasonable doubt' or 'Preponderance of Evidence', depending on what type of case, come to mind. That is the way it has been and that is the way it should be.

All they have to prove frauds happened. Dead people voting is clear case one type of frauds.

Theoretically, Legislature and/or court can declare fraud and they don't need to invalidate all votes. Legislature can ask Electors to vote for the other candidate."

Constitution of the USA gives power to each state's legislatures to frame necessary laws and rules as to how electoral college members are decided and how they vote. They have already done that. To change that procedure they have to pass another act. But that would be considered ex post facto law, is it not? Would courts (who will ultimately decide the validity of such laws) accept those laws?

[ShyamSP]

All they have to prove frauds happened. Dead people voting is clear case one type of frauds.

Theoretically, Legislature and/or court can declare fraud and they don't need to invalidate all votes. Legislature can ask Electors to vote for the other candidate.

Voting in election is to indicate preference of Presidential candidate only.


All this can be solved if Trump concedes. Hence a lot of propaganda in main stream media and twitters - "Trump, you are sore loser, why don't you concede?"

Technically, we are NOT voting to decide the President but casting our votes to ELECT THE MEMBERS OF THE ELECTORAL COLLEGEb in each state. Each party in each state decides who will be in the slate of the electoral college in that state to represent that party. That is the reason why we have so few 'faithless voters'.
As I indicated before if Trump does NOT concede and keeps this going till Jan 6th, then President will be elected by the NEW House of Representatives. In that election, as far as I can tell, Trump seems to have the majority.

Process allows state legislatures to vote for different candidate. So technically whole state legislatures can go "Faithless" and vote for different candidate than candidate that wins the state. Once electors get selected, they individually can go Faithless and vote differently.

This is not Norm but the process exists to elect faithlessly. Vote Fraud is big reason they can give to avoid any prosecution and any state law breaking. It is not Federal issue but state issue. So if Elector moves to different state after voting, nothing can be done.

We're discussing theoretical possibilities, let's see how counting and court cases go. At the end Biden can still keep lead and after January he gets voted to be President.

[Jay]

via whatsapp

wow. life is indeed a circle. I remember seeing these quotes back in 2000 when Bush vs Gore battle was going on and I was enjoying the schadenfreude. The more things change the more they stay the same.

[Mort Walker]

^^^You’re lying. Smart phones and SM was nowhere significant in 2000. In 2000 people in the US were transitioning from dial up to broadband internet.

[Jay]

Is that so? Despite Trump doing more for Blacks and minorities than any other President in the history of America ? LoL.

Really, more than Lincoln's emancipation, Johnson's civil rights act of 1964, Grant's creation of justice department and the prosecution of clan, Roosevelt repealing Poll tax that taxed Black people more, Truman desegregating the military.

Like most of Trump's claims, these claims also fall flat on their face once you start looking into them. Trump's parading of low Black unemployment was because unemployment in general was low, which was a trend that started in the pervious admins. When covid hit the economy, Black's and Latino's lost more jobs as a percentage than then any other race, does he claim credit for it also? His claim about sentencing reforms is a bi-partisan congressional deal which to his credit he signed. But his same justice department under Barr now and Sessions earlier, blocked 100's of beneficiaries. Credit where its due, it helped in releasing around 3000 offenders, and hats off to that.

Similarly the funding of Historical Black colleges is a congressional initiative which is a budget line item. It is not a specific initiative that him or his administration has opted, driven, and bought into existence.

Bottom line, all this talk about "Trump doing more Blacks" is a PR drivel, and would not be quoted by any historian/economist or even the voter in 2 years from now.

[Jay]

^^^You’re lying. Smart phones and SM was nowhere significant in 2000. In 2000 people in the US were transitioning from dial up to broadband internet.

Dude, what the hell, this was a email attachment back in rediff mail days. It's not the exact quote but the line was something along "how US can change governments on foreign soil, but cannot change their own governments properly". Did you think we lived in stone age back in 2000?

[Mort Walker]

Technically, we are NOT voting to decide the President but casting our votes to ELECT THE MEMBERS OF THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE in each state. Each party in each state decides who will be in the slate of the electoral college in that state to represent that party. That is the reason why we have so few 'faithless voters'.
As I indicated before if Trump does NOT concede and keeps this going till Jan 6th, then President will be elected by the NEW House of Representatives. In that election, as far as I can tell, Trump seems to have the majority.

As usual you're being disingenuous.

The Secretary of State of all states certify the election. On the 8th of December, the Electoral College, which is administered by the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), must resolve any dispute prior to the Electoral College vote on the 14th of December. By the 23rd of December, the certificate of votes must be received by the President of the Senate and the Archivist.

https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/key-dates

Trump can do little to nothing to this process once the Secretaries of State certify the election. All court challenges have effectively been stopped and there is no indication of the election not being certified in the disputed states. The reason being is that the Republican party wants a return to "business as usual". The only two avenues he has is to one, get Electors in various states who are Trump loyalists, but that's not happening. The other outside chance is that on 11th of December, the Continuing Resolution expires and another CR or budget is not agreed upon until then. NARA, an Executive Branch agency, can't conduct official business as it will be closed on the evening of the 11th since it is not deemed as national security, law enforcement, and safety agency. If the government shutdown extends to the 23rd December, it should then become interesting. I don't see the later happening.

[Mort Walker]

^^^You’re lying. Smart phones and SM was nowhere significant in 2000. In 2000 people in the US were transitioning from dial up to broadband internet.

Dude, what the hell, this was a email attachment back in rediff mail days. It's not the exact quote but the line was something along "how US can change governments on foreign soil, but cannot change their own governments properly". Did you think we lived in stone age back in 2000?

Passing around email attachments is vastly different than SM as we know it today. Your schadenfreude is in your mind.

[Jay]

Passing around email attachments is vastly different than SM as we know it today. Your schadenfreude is in your mind.

ok!

[Rony]

US media and anyone who thought CNBC is better than NYT/Wapo/CNN/NPR/BBC etc . I thought they do it only for India and Modi

[ShyamSP]

US media and anyone who thought CNBC is better than NYT/Wapo/CNN/NPR/BBC etc . I thought they do it only for India and Modi

One thing people should be thankful for Trump. He unmasked a lot of things for people that are free thinking.

India and Modi should put a lot of safe guards and firewalls not only against China propaganda and platforms but also western media and social platforms who with seeming success in US will do similar revolutions in upcoming years.

Case in point: I was watching some Telugu video they were analyzing US elections based on propaganda by likes of CNN/FB/twitter. Poison spreads faster.

[ShyamSP]

What is full audit without verifying signatures and postal date stamps? Are they only counting same ballots they counted before, which can only tell if the machine reading is good or not.

Looks like some Republicans are in collusion with Democrats to take down Trump.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 10850?s=19
"The Consent Decree signed by the Georgia Secretary of State, with the approval of Governor @BrianKempGA, at the urging of @staceyabrams, makes it impossible to check & match signatures on ballots and envelopes, etc. They knew they were going to cheat. Must expose real signatures!"

[saip]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 10850?s=19
"The Consent Decree signed by the Georgia Secretary of State, with the approval of Governor @BrianKempGA, at the urging of @staceyabrams, makes it impossible to check & match signatures on ballots and envelopes, etc. They knew they were going to cheat. Must expose real signatures!"

Trump probably is NOT aware that the voting in the USA is by SECRET BALLOT. Once the ballots are out of the envelope there can never be any ID or mark on the ballots themselves. If it is there it is an invalid ballot. Whatever signature is there it is on the OUTER envelope (if there are two envelopes the inside envelope is called Secrecy Envelope/Sleeve for a reason). Because of the Constitutional protection about privacy there can not be a link between the envelope and the ballot which in anyway can identify the ballot. All challenges happen BEFORE the envelope is opened. BTW in GA if you vote in person the polling agent verifies your ID and Signature BEFORE he gives you an electronic card to be inserted into the machine which then displays the ballot. After you vote (by touch screen) the machine prints a QR code which can then be used to verify if your vote went through. AFAIK there are no paper ballots to count if you used the machine or using the QR code you may be able to print the ballot but it will not have any ID. What could have happened though is that as this is the FIRST time they are using these machines (they thought of changing these machines but felt not enough time to do that) and some of the voters could have been confused and voted wrongly. But nothing to do with stealing/fixing the election.

[saip]

As far as I am concerned Trump lost the election fair and square by, in his own words, a landslide (not true but who am I to correct Trump?)

[ShyamSP]

You missed highlighting envelops but repeated same content as you posted before. I don't want to do repeat reply. There is big difference in ID verification in election booth and mail-in ballots. Mail-in ballots have only signatures and/or postal date on envelopes to verify when returned.

[saip]

You missed my point about Secret Ballot and there can be no link between the envelope and the ballot now. Even if you prove the signature on the envelope does not match how will you link THAT to the ballot? You will never know whose vote it was unless ALL the envelopes can be invalidated. Then ALL mail in ballots will be invalidated. But that will NOT happen in this universe.

One exception that you can not put ID on the ballot. You can write in your NAME as a candidate akin to NOTA in India. But that is NOT a signature and that can not be compared to anything.

[ShyamSP]

That's fine. How many invalid envelops came can show extent of invalid votes. How invalid votes can be deducted or whether Biden/Trump won or not is different from knowing extent of invalid votes or fraud.

[Mort Walker]

As far as I am concerned Trump lost the election fair and square by, in his own words, a landslide (not true but who am I to correct Trump?)

Nope. Fraud has occurred in Philadelphia, Atlanta, Detroit, and Milwaukee, along with other states and cities. Invalid ballots were counted. Once the ballot is removed from the secrecy envelope, there is no way to determine which ballots are invalid. The postal ballot system needs to be prohibited by law. If Biden is elected next month, then he should be immediately impeached. Hopefully that happens in January 2023.

[KLNMurthy]

Nothing is going to come out of the Georgia recount except more votes for Biden. The cheat by mail system has been fixed by the Dems in a few populous counties. If this was an honest look at the vote counting for this election, the Dems would have been screaming bloody murder by now. The only solution is to ban the mass vote by mail system. Only in rare conditions should it be offered.

Mort Walker, you, as well as many voices in the media, are stating as established fact the allegation that the admittedly flawed vote-by-mail system was designed to benefit Democratic cheaters exclusively, with Republicans being solely the innocent victims.

The points made about the flaws are valid, specifically as regards signatures and harvesting. Some blue state Democratic voters that I know were worried enough about the signature process that they changed their mind at the last minute and opted to vote in person instead of mailing their ballots, overcoming their concerns about covid. And I am aware of Republicans placing vote drop boxes in public places—perfectly legal use of vote harvesting—giving rise to concerns in ultra-blue areas of a blue state.

What I am not able to see is how the flaws in the system amount to Democrats exclusively playing the role of evil cheaters and Republicans exclusively playing the role of passive, innocent victims. It seems to me that talking and writing as if this is actually the case is nothing but verbal flimflammery, intended to bamboozle the unwary into buying a partisan political point of view. Communists and Muslim activists, among others, use this sort of tactic all the time, and it works, so I can see the appeal for politicos.

So, bottom line, I am thinking that there is no real merit in your assertions(not just yours of course) and they just amount to that Four Legs Republicans Good, Two Legs Democrats Bad. And they are beneath BRF intellectual standards.

Please tell me why I am wrong, if you would.

[vera_k]

2017 article about ballot harvesting operation in Florida. Signature verification looks to be a problem either leading to purges of votes or acceptance of invalid votes. Too much is expected of the election workers.

EXCLUSIVE: Winning candidates helped voters fill out their ballots

Regardless, if someone else signs a voter’s ballot, it should be caught by elections workers, who are supposed to check to make sure the signature on the ballot envelope matches the signature on file with the elections supervisor. That’s the only way the office attempts to confirm that the person casting the ballot is the actual voter.

But it wasn’t caught.
Post reporters looked at the signature on Joseph’s ballot envelope and it didn’t appear to match his signature on file with the elections supervisor. State law forbids making copies of election signatures so reporters could only view them.

[ShyamSP]

What I am not able to see is how the flaws in the system amount to Democrats exclusively playing the role of evil cheaters and Republicans exclusively playing the role of passive, innocent victims.

Don't you think Democrats can also contest against Republican wins? No one is stopping them.

I don't think there is unfairness. Let them contest each other as public benefits it.

[KL Dubey]

What I am not able to see is how the flaws in the system amount to Democrats exclusively playing the role of evil cheaters and Republicans exclusively playing the role of passive, innocent victims. It seems to me that talking and writing as if this is actually the case is nothing but verbal flimflammery, intended to bamboozle the unwary into buying a partisan political point of view. Communists and Muslim activists, among others, use this sort of tactic all the time, and it works, so I can see the appeal for politicos.

You are in good company - courts all across the country don't see it either. Most of these phaltu lawsuits have been rejected. Even the lawyers in some cases (PA) have withdrawn from representing Trump, so he's turned to Rudy Giuliani now. And of course, I assume most of the campaign donors are unaware that their donations are going to pay $300-an-hour lawyers going to court with nothing to show by way of facts...instead of peacefully winding down the campaign and paying off whoever is owed money.

Please tell me why I am wrong, if you would.

If you make the mistake of giving this another shot, all you will get is the same assertions in different language. As you have already pointed out, there are no facts to support this. And obviously he is not going to turn around and tell you he was wrong after all.

[KL Dubey]

And meanwhile, the "extra 117,000" ballots in NC found on USPS property were counted and Trump has won. So I guess no fraud there, but only in the states which Trump lost...

GA is the main outstanding result. After the recount, nothing will change. The final tally will be Biden 306. Trump 232. Convincing and deserved victory for Joe.

[saip]

That's fine. How many invalid envelops came can show extent of invalid votes. How invalid votes can be deducted or whether Biden/Trump won or not is different from knowing extent of invalid votes or fraud.

I misunderstood you. So you only want to prove there is fraud but not reverse the count? If fraud is proven then people will go to jail which is the right thing to do. There is NOT a single instance,as far as I can tell, in the annals of US Election that fraud nullified an election result. Can you cite an instance?

[vera_k]

^ Search for "New Local Election Ordered in N.J. After Mail-In Voter Fraud Charges". Mail-in voting has been far from trouble free this year.

[Mort Walker]

KLNMurthy,

I’m busy right now and will get back to you tomorrow after Diwali, but take a look at ballot rejection rates. The dramatic decline of rejected ballots from 2018 to 2020 is where the answers are.

[KL Dubey]

^ Search for "New Local Election Ordered in N.J. After Mail-In Voter Fraud Charges". Mail-in voting has been far from trouble free this year.

So, will Trump campaign fight for a re-election in NJ, or only the states where he "needs to win/has a chance to win" ? Why no lawsuit there ?

[vera_k]

^ Indeed, I've been wondering the same thing. Maybe it is on the way?

[AkshaySG]

As someone living in one of these big swing voter states ..Frankly the allegations and lawsuits being brought by trump are useless and they themsleves know it . (Check out what their lawyers and legal counsel are saying in courts rather than what they blab on twitter and Fox news ) ..One lawsuit after another is being thrown out Republican appointed judges and there isn't a single state where credible evidence has been found . The sharpie controversy was found to be false ..the USPS guy recanted on his story , The "dead " voters are basically just a database assigning Jan 1 1900 as defualt DOB and the fake ballots theory has been rejected in 3 states .

There may be an isolated case here and there but to take that run it as some deep state conspiracy to game the election is beyond ridiculous .

You can read the actual court fillings , lawyer's arguments and judges decisions here https://www.democracydocket.com/state/p ... t-election

The only reason Mitch and other Republican leaders are allowing Trump to have this meltdown is because it keeps his support base active and angry for Gerogia Senate runoffs and 22 midterm elections ....They know Trump still holds massive support and they need those vote bases to not be dejected .That's it

[AkshaySG]

Also another thing I somehow don't understand here are posters who think Trump was crucial to Indian interests and that Biden would be a catastrophe ...Anyone who has followed US politics knows that Biden is one of the most "old system" guys there is in politics ... he isn't bernie , he isn't AOC and he isn't about to usher in a far left world order . In terms of political spectrum BIden and Modi are far closer to each other than Modi is to trump . Trump just has a liking for people he percieves as strongmen otherwise in terms of policy they are quite different .

Full full disclosure I support BJP and Modi like the work they are doing back in India but that does not mean that I also support the current iteration of the Republican Party who just seem to be off their rockers , I would take a Mccain , tulsi , Yang or Romney like candidate but if they are not available then a center left and system guy like Biden is far more suitable to Trump's cabal .and Modi's intl work and image only gets harmed when he gets clubbed in with idiots like Bolsnaro and Trump ... Modi is more similar to Shinzo Abe, Johnson or even Putin than those two idiots .

Trump and his minions have no affinity for India or Indians , they''ll do a 180 whenever it suits their agenda as they have done with tons of other things previously . At least with a Biden you know things will be . United States needs India to counter Chinese interests no matter who the President is so don't freak out so much about Trump losing .


Don't equate what you see in NYT/Wapo?Buzzfeed /VICE as being the same thing as Biden's policies

[KJo]

Also another thing I somehow don't understand here are posters who think Trump was crucial to Indian interests and that Biden would be a catastrophe ...Anyone who has followed US politics knows that Biden is one of the most "old system" guys there is in politics ... he isn't bernie , he isn't AOC and he isn't about to usher in a far left world order . In terms of political spectrum BIden and Modi are far closer to each other than Modi is to trump . Trump just has a liking for people he percieves as strongmen otherwise in terms of policy they are quite different .

Full full disclosure I support BJP and Modi like the work they are doing back in India but that does not mean that I also support the current iteration of the Republican Party who just seem to be off their rockers , I would take a Mccain , tulsi , Yang or Romney like candidate but if they are not available then a center left and system guy like Biden is far more suitable to Trump's cabal .and Modi's intl work and image only gets harmed when he gets clubbed in with idiots like Bolsnaro and Trump ... Modi is more similar to Shinzo Abe, Johnson or even Putin than those two idiots .

Trump and his minions have no affinity for India or Indians , they''ll do a 180 whenever it suits their agenda . At least with a Biden you know things will be .

United States needs India to counter Chinese interests no matter who the President is so don't freak out so much about Trump losing

Modi is for India, regardless of who the President of the US is. Modi was among those who congratulated Biden. There is little sense in virtue-signalling and making enemies of the leader of a powerful nation regardless of who he is.

[AkshaySG]

Also another thing I somehow don't understand here are posters who think Trump was crucial to Indian interests and that Biden would be a catastrophe ...Anyone who has followed US politics knows that Biden is one of the most "old system" guys there is in politics ... he isn't bernie , he isn't AOC and he isn't about to usher in a far left world order . In terms of political spectrum BIden and Modi are far closer to each other than Modi is to trump . Trump just has a liking for people he percieves as strongmen otherwise in terms of policy they are quite different .

Full full disclosure I support BJP and Modi like the work they are doing back in India but that does not mean that I also support the current iteration of the Republican Party who just seem to be off their rockers , I would take a Mccain , tulsi , Yang or Romney like candidate but if they are not available then a center left and system guy like Biden is far more suitable to Trump's cabal .and Modi's intl work and image only gets harmed when he gets clubbed in with idiots like Bolsnaro and Trump ... Modi is more similar to Shinzo Abe, Johnson or even Putin than those two idiots .

Trump and his minions have no affinity for India or Indians , they''ll do a 180 whenever it suits their agenda . At least with a Biden you know things will be .

United States needs India to counter Chinese interests no matter who the President is so don't freak out so much about Trump losing

Modi is for India, regardless of who the President of the US is. Modi was among those who congratulated Biden. There is little sense in virtue-signalling and making enemies of the leader of a powerful nation regardless of who he is.

I know that .. And Modi/BJP know that too , I just find it weird when people think that just because we support a right wing party in India it means that we also have to support every right-wing party/movement in the world ..No matter how ridiculous and downright crazy some of them may be .

[KL Dubey]

Also another thing I somehow don't understand here are posters who think Trump was crucial to Indian interests and that Biden would be a catastrophe ...Anyone who has followed US politics knows that Biden is one of the most "old system" guys there is in politics ... he isn't bernie , he isn't AOC and he isn't about to usher in a far left world order . In terms of political spectrum BIden and Modi are far closer to each other than Modi is to trump.

I have a similar view. At this point I am wishing for Joe's continued good health and mental competence, since the two next in chain of command (Harris and Pelosi) are absolute far-lefters.

[Rishi_Tri]

Also another thing I somehow don't understand here are posters who think Trump was crucial to Indian interests and that Biden would be a catastrophe ...Anyone who has followed US politics knows that Biden is one of the most "old system" guys there is in politics ... he isn't bernie , he isn't AOC and he isn't about to usher in a far left world order . In terms of political spectrum BIden and Modi are far closer to each other than Modi is to trump.

I have a similar view. At this point I am wishing for Joe's continued good health and mental competence, since the two next in chain of command (Harris and Pelosi) are absolute far-lefters.

How many ppl have wished you 'Sal Mubarak' on Deepavali?

What shall you make of the guy who can't get even his Deepavali greeting right? Sal Mubarak!! - I am so damn sure that came from NaPakis in Biden Administration.

Welcome to New Administration. 100% convinced it is going to be worse than we have spoken of here.