UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

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nam
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby nam » 23 Oct 2020 23:37

As with everything in our case, large orders will not be given to private sector. DPSU( like HAL) don't have the money for drone R&D, nor the approval.

So yeah, there is only imports.

You want drones, call up the private biggies. Tell them to line up their drone. They can get them through their collaboration, license manufacturing or their own R&D.

Give them orders.

We haven't even bothered to give out a GSQR to develop loitering attack drones.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 24 Oct 2020 06:11

nam wrote:You want drones, call up the private biggies. Tell them to line up their drone. They can get them through their collaboration, license manufacturing or their own R&D.


Exactly. And who cares if they don't offer the reliability and safety of manned platforms? You don't need those specs in a drone and thus can experiment with low cost, higher value options. Its actually a more forgiving platform for young private OEMs to hone in their skills on before they get into the big leagues. The startup scene should be all over this if only there was some MOD capital flowing that encouraged this.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby habal » 27 Oct 2020 12:25

wow ! I mean if true, wow !

from twitter
Image

Code: Select all

Spriter@spriter99880
Russia plans to buy reconnaissance drones from Iran. The contract also includes spare parts for drones and training for Russian military personnel.


how times have changed. Russia and India totally skipped out the low tech armed drone race and just focussed on the heavies like Ghatak &
SU-70 drones.

Importing from China or Iran seems more feasible then.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Oct 2020 13:01

This would be also wow if true

https://twitter.com/spriter99880/status/1320883394692190210?s=20

Russia knocking Turkish drones from Armenian skies

Canada has halted the sale of the Wescam camera system to Turkey because of its use on Bayraktar drones in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. But Canada has been silent about Rotax engine exports, although the Austrian company is owned by Canada’s Bombardier Recreational Products.

No doubt there are other Bayraktar parts that are made in Europe, the United States and elsewhere.


The Russians might also have complained about China, which supplied the engines, the cameras and the GPS receivers and radios in the drones that were home-built by ISIS and others. But, of course, they did not want to stir trouble with their Beijing ally. For the record, the Russians said the swarming drones caused no damage.


The Russian press claims that at least nine Bayraktar drones were shot down on or about October 19. Some photos of the drones that crashed have been released by Armenia and have appeared in the Russian press, principally at Avia.pro.


I believe with proper jamming, like DRDO displayed on Independence day, with Automated CIWS solutions with Radar and IIR guidance based on trucks like BEL is developing, the drone menace can be handled.

It is something we need to catch up and plan to counter, even old tech like Nets etc. will help, but jamming guidance, having good and accurate triple AAA in all approaches to vital targets is important.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 27 Oct 2020 13:44

Aditya_V wrote:Canada has halted the sale of the Wescam camera system to Turkey because of its use on Bayraktar drones in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. But Canada has been silent about Rotax engine exports, although the Austrian company is owned by Canada’s Bombardier Recreational Products.

No doubt there are other Bayraktar parts that are made in Europe, the United States and elsewhere.


Non milspec parts aren't controlled and are openly sold in the commercial market so direct OEM refusal to sell or support is probably not going to be a big setback. There is also some debris indicating that these systems use commercial (Garmin) navigation and positioning gear. So they are probably stuffing in some off the shelf commercial systems to keep production rates relatively high, costs low, and avoid the need to design, develop, and produce these systems to the same cost/reliability standards. But of course, non Milspec gear (which is different from developing a Milspec system using COTS components) makes them easier to disable via EW and virtually impossible to cyber harden.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby kit » 27 Oct 2020 14:08

Russia buying from Iran seems quite odd news. Those are the people who don't buy Indian !!

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Oct 2020 14:11

kit wrote:Russia buying from Iran seems quite odd news. Those are the people who don't buy Indian !!


Twitter Sar, and Iran is known for exaggeration, like their Quaher 313 stealth plane which was unveiled by their president at that time. Despite thier claims as shown when shooting down a US airliner, it was a very old Soviet' system.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 27 Oct 2020 18:35

kit wrote:Russia buying from Iran seems quite odd news. Those are the people who don't buy Indian !!


I may have missed this, but where is this news in the Russian media or known reputable defense publications?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby kit » 27 Oct 2020 21:51

brar_w wrote:
kit wrote:Russia buying from Iran seems quite odd news. Those are the people who don't buy Indian !!


I may have missed this, but where is this news in the Russian media or known reputable defense publications?



looks like some random tweet !

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rony » 14 Nov 2020 01:57

Anti-Drone Laser

Arianegroupe and the Orleans SME Cilas have successfully tested a laser weapon system capable of destroying drones in flight moving up to 50 km / hour and at 1 km distance.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby John » 14 Nov 2020 02:25

Aditya_V wrote:The Russian press claims that at least nine Bayraktar drones were shot down on or about October 19. Some photos of the drones that crashed have been released by Armenia and have appeared in the Russian press, principally at Avia.pro.

I would take it with a grain of salt even Armenians admit the Russian air defense system struggled against the drones, Few Tor and S-300 were knocked out and could only knock out An-2 converted into drones at high probability.

Hope S-400 turn out to be better but not the first time Russian hardware failed to live up to hype. In Syria Pantsir struggled, of course lot of people wrote it off as a Syrians being not competent enough to operate it. Now we have another datapoint that highlights in effectiveness of Russian SAM systems.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Nov 2020 06:06

John wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:The Russian press claims that at least nine Bayraktar drones were shot down on or about October 19. Some photos of the drones that crashed have been released by Armenia and have appeared in the Russian press, principally at Avia.pro.

I would take it with a grain of salt even Armenians admit the Russian air defense system struggled against the drones, Few Tor and S-300 were knocked out and could only knock out An-2 converted into drones at high probability.

Hope S-400 turn out to be better but not the first time Russian hardware failed to live up to hype. In Syria Pantsir struggled, of course lot of people wrote it off as a Syrians being not competent enough to operate it. Now we have another datapoint that highlights in effectiveness of Russian SAM systems.

Can you tell you us what model S300s were shot down? Evaluating the performance of Russian gear in a small country and extrapolating that to the S400 operating in a layered ADS within the Indian context seems far fetched. I'd be willing to bet that all of this Bektiyaar etc. won't stand a chance in the Indian environment. The PERDIX type stuff is another matter....

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby John » 14 Nov 2020 07:58

Wiki lists it as a S-300PS. Not sure if it is correct.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 14 Nov 2020 08:20

I haven't followed each one of the purported SAM or radar kills (of which folks have identified well over a dozen) and the relevant OSINT data, but I would suspect that an overwhelming majority of those would have been targeted using loitering munitions or expendable drones instead of something like the Bayraktar. Very similar to how the IDF targeted the Syrian Pantsir and other air-defense systems. Of course ultimately this threat would become that of drones launching smaller and cheaper smart expendable drones of their own blurring the line between a cruise missile, a drone, and a munition.

Having said that, it isn't really the job of the S-300 or the S-400 to shoot these down. Knowing the threat, these systems should have proper SHORAD protection allowing them to focus on the threats they are optimized for. Same with BMD systems. Their radar, and launchers should be oriented for best efficacy and they should be emplaced with the defended-area in mind and not how best to kill unmanned systems targeting them. While pundits are likely to draw attention to these munitions and their effectiveness in their conflict, what is probably the single most important factor that led to their supposed success was a severe lack of counter ISR capability on the Armenian side. So in the end, trying to extrapolate the effectiveness of this crop of capability against a peer opponent essentially comes down to the ISR, C-ISR, and EW capability of your own as well as that of your opponent. Without these investments, exploiting these combinations of UAV's, and expendable loitering munitions at scale, against a capable adversary isn't going to be very effective in shaping a tactical battlefield advantage.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby John » 14 Nov 2020 09:29

That was the job for TOR-m1 which reportedly badly under performed, in one of video the Bayraktar seem to be flying over it while the other one knocks it out.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby tandav » 14 Nov 2020 14:14

Airshow with 3300 drone in a swarm in China. There are many military applications for this



https://youtu.be/44KvHwRHb3A

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Parasu » 15 Nov 2020 19:43

https://www.mideastcenter.org/post/how- ... ifications

This is a slightly dated article on how Turkish UAVs have been regularly outsmarting Russian ADs, especially the pantsirs.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby John » 15 Nov 2020 20:17

Parasu wrote:https://www.mideastcenter.org/post/how-did-turkish-uavs-outmaneuver-russia-s-pantsir-air-defense-in-libya-lessons-and-ramifications

This is a slightly dated article on how Turkish UAVs have been regularly outsmarting Russian ADs, especially the pantsirs.

Pantsir is an overly complicated system for a simple point defense purpose (more on that later). It doesn’t offer 360 degrees coverage and mounting the missiles on bulky mount greatly reduces reaction time. Also missiles being command guided it requires constant target tracking not ideal in urban environments against low flying targets. The truck based system is large, limited mobility and very easy to spot compare that with obsolete system like SA-8 which can easily be hidden.

It designed to operate autonomously which is a plus (see Gulf War) and a minus as it means if radar on system doesn’t detect the target it is a sitting deck. For Russia it was designed to protect S-300 and expected that enemies wouldn’t be targeting pantsir specifically so losing couple is acceptable as long as long range SAM systems are safe.

The poor 3 man crew are likely to be over tasked having to detect targets on EO, Radar system and engage targets using the missile. When they do engage they have wait for missile to engage them before they rotate the turret to engage any other targets using missile then switch over to guns. As I said you can see it’s overly complicated system and if it is not maintenaned properly or has poorly trained crew it is good as junk.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Parasu » 16 Nov 2020 16:58

The pantsirs and tanguska failed tests in indian army trials.
https://idrw.org/pantsir-missile-system ... dian-army/

Azerbaijan claims that it also destroyed several batteries of S-300s in Nagorno Karabakh.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby hnair » 17 Nov 2020 00:49

tandav wrote:Airshow with 3300 drone in a swarm in China. There are many military applications for this


Please elaborate those, instead of saying there are many military apps.

Eg: Forget the jam-resistant giga-datalink needed for reprogramming each. How are these systems going to be co-ordinated into a proper attack of a tactical target? Currently, such display swarms dont have individual sentience, but orient based on individual (not relational to each other) co-ordinates that are pre-programmed and cannot be easily re-programmed. If it is autonomous targeting using say IIR/Mmw, how is this going to not get entangled into a giant mess and land right in front of a dug in enemy that would :rotfl: at the spectacle? Please dont tell me this is "work in progress" as it has been years since we have been hearing this! Khan has demonstrated this in some SuperBowl show, years back.

This is like saying the daily fireworks at Disneyland should scare any military and not the constellations of satellites that silently flit over our heads. The sentient drones that can assess its position in the swarm and form a truly offensive soution like say pissed-off honey-bees are still a while away.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby John » 17 Nov 2020 03:15

Parasu wrote:The pantsirs and tanguska failed tests in indian army trials.
https://idrw.org/pantsir-missile-system ... dian-army/

Azerbaijan claims that it also destroyed several batteries of S-300s in Nagorno Karabakh.

Shame we could started inducting Biho but Russia cried fowl all the while the systems were failing miserably in Libya and Syria. Russian wanted push the improved variant which SM variant which somehow fixes all the issues. One good thing that came out is we will now be making SPAAG locally hopefully our local companies can meet the challenge.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 17 Nov 2020 21:02

hnair wrote:Eg: Forget the jam-resistant giga-datalink needed for reprogramming each. How are these systems going to be co-ordinated into a proper attack of a tactical target? Currently, such display swarms dont have individual sentience, but orient based on individual (not relational to each other) co-ordinates that are pre-programmed and cannot be easily re-programmed.


Technology around autonomy and even full AI adoption is moving fast. While democracies may have some reservations on the degree and role AI plays, the CCP may not.

“Due to the complex nature of combat, Perdix are not pre-programmed synchronized individuals, they are a collective organism, sharing one distributed brain for decision-making and adapting to each other like swarms in nature,” SCO Director William Roper said in a statement. “Because every Perdix communicates and collaborates with every other Perdix, the swarm has no leader and can gracefully adapt to drones entering or exiting the team.”

This particular demonstration is one of the first examples where the potential of autonomous swarms is truly on display. Previously, the Defense Department would have to use to large unmanned aircraft—which cost as much as a manned aircraft—to achieve the same effect. With the use of this technology, the enemy has to work much harder to take down individual components of the swarm to destroy it. Moreover, the swarm is still operational even after multiple aircraft have been destroyed—allowing for a graceful degradation of the collective whole as it comes under attack. Thus, once the swarm technology is operational—the potential is almost limitless. LINK


Understanding China's AI Strategy

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rakesh » 18 Nov 2020 21:05

INDIA NOW HAS A DEDICATED DRONES DIRECTORATE TO FOCUS EXCLUSIVELY ON DRONES
https://dharmakshethra.com/india-now-ha ... on-drones/
18 Nov 2020

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby nam » 25 Nov 2020 18:22

Apparently two predators have reached India on a lease deal!.

https://twitter.com/ani_digital/status/1331560058287579137

Indian Navy inducts two American Predator drones on lease, can be deployed on China border

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Prithwiraj » 25 Nov 2020 19:58

nam wrote:Apparently two predators have reached India on a lease deal!.

https://twitter.com/ani_digital/status/1331560058287579137

Indian Navy inducts two American Predator drones on lease, can be deployed on China border

Livefist reports they are Sea Guardian - and running sorties over Bay of Bengal

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/11 ... -navy.html


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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Philip » 26 Nov 2020 07:17

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... rd%20Brief

RMA in naval warfare.
The use of sub-launched attack drones ,tests just carried out by the USN is revolutionising sub and naval warfare.As the aerticle says,
considering the threat from the PRC, the navy cannot afford continued reliance on the delusion that its aircraft carriers are indestructible.If America is to win a naval war,submarines will be critical.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby schinnas » 26 Nov 2020 20:37

It is a brilliant decision to lease few of the expensive products for a year or two before deciding to buy them. The lease option also means India does not need to build expensive repository of fighters, tanks, subs and drones and can lease them at required levels for a few years based on the threat perception and capacity needs.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 26 Nov 2020 21:01

schinnas wrote:It is a brilliant decision to lease few of the expensive products for a year or two before deciding to buy them. The lease option also means India does not need to build expensive repository of fighters, tanks, subs and drones and can lease them at required levels for a few years based on the threat perception and capacity needs.


This is only going to be possible for a very small set of products though. Ever since GA lost the USN BAMS competition their focus was to take their maritime technologies and try to fit those on a lower cost platfrom, build a few examples (based on what they did with the USCG) and then do extensive demonstrations with potential clients (like India, Japan, UK etc). A small(ish) private company can do that especially one this is basically an extension of the type of product (small LRIP fleet that gets leased or used by few clients in small numbers) they've offered to even domestic agencies like NASA, USAF and other three letter agencies. In fact GA has kept the entire Avenger platfrom alive with this strategy (build a few, lease/sell a few, and keep the line warm to develop the platform). But no one is really going to do that for other systems like fighters etc unless they agree to offload their own capacity and offer something from inventory. It also helps that the USAF has sort of portioned out the MALE UAS capability into CAP's and orbits and this allows GA to build products that they can lease out in terms of that construct allowing it to guarantees on leases in terms of # of persistent CAP's etc. This is obviously more difficult to do with traditional platforms.

Here's a video of the Sea Guardian in Japan where GA is working with the Japanese CG to explore this capability -


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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby darshhan » 27 Nov 2020 09:38

hnair wrote:
Currently, such display swarms dont have individual sentience, but orient based on individual (not relational to each other) co-ordinates that are pre-programmed and cannot be easily re-programmed


Then it is not a swarm as per commonly accepted definition of the swarm. It is just a bunch of drones. Drones in a swarm are required to communicate and coordinate with each other. And this is what which will make the SWARM extremely lethal and effective on the battlefield.

By the way regarding Swarm technology, this is one field where Chinese are bound to be close to Americans or maybe even ahead. The technology gap between the too will be extremely minimal.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Vips » 01 Dec 2020 01:43

Swarm drone system work fast-tracked to take on China’s air defence.

India is accelerating plans to develop an air-launched swarm drone system designed to attack enemy advanced air defences, like the ones deployed by China across the Ladakh border, thereby greatly reducing vulnerability of pilots and fighter jets to ground based air defences.

The project, which envisages a Jaguar land attack aircraft launching up to 24 killer drones that take down individual targets, already has the Indian Air Force on board and involves at least two startups as well as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, people aware of the development told ET.

Centre for Articial Intelligence and Robotics (CAIR) is also involved to help build artificial intelligence (AI) capabilities for target acquisition.
Being developed under the Combat Air Teaming System (CATS) project, the plan is to complete the development process within four years, sources said. The project involves development of four individual systems that will be parallelly tested, they said. The design is underway.

Image

Image

As per current plans, the system will be designed around a manned Jaguar land attack aircraft that is used for deep penetration attack missions, sources said. The mothership would be modied to carry four pods – each a drone that would be able to fly alongside the Jaguar once released.

The concept is that each pod would carry six hunter killer drones that can be launched towards a target area. As the pods are being designed for autonomous operation, the Jaguar crew would be able to direct them in an anti-aircraft weapons environment while staying out of range.

Also being designed is a Very High Altitude Long Endurance (VHALE) unmanned aircraft that will be able to monitor the system and provide real time feedback to controllers. The VHALE is being designed to loiter for days at a stretch at above 70,000 feet, enabling a constant eye on the target area, while staying out of range of most air defence systems.

Sources said detailed presentations on the system have been made to the air force that has expressed a keen interest in the project. The next step is to test individual systems after the design process is completed.

The project would take India into a select league of nations with such technology, the others being France and the US.

Sources said the initial projections make it a highly cost-effective system, with the developmental and prototype cost pegged at under Rs 1,000 crore. While India has a combat edge in the neighbourhood as far as fighter jets go, the ever-present threat has been advanced air defence systems being acquired by adversaries.

The Chinese side has deployed its newly acquired S400 air defence system near Aksai Chin and is developing its own equipment that it is likely to share with Pakistan in the near future.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 02 Dec 2020 02:23

I have a feeling that RCI is developing a drone, a sizeable one. It has issued a tender for 8 nose wheel steering actuators and 58 control surface actuators. One doesn't need nose wheel steering for a small UAV. For instance many 2 seaters don't have nosewheel steering. Even if I take that these are for 8 airframes, we are looking at quite a few control surfaces per airframe as well. One other pointer is that it will be certified by CEMILAC. All these point to a large airframe. We know that it was developing a 2.75 kN turbojet engine with NAL.

HAL is developing a sizeable wingman too.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Prem Kumar » 02 Dec 2020 09:51

This is welcome news. But I'd rather we complete some bread and butter stuff:

1) Getting Rustom up & running
2) Making a weaponized Rustom
3) Create a Harop-like loitering munition (no swarm, no AI - just controlled by a controller to loiter & attack)
4) Ground launched UAVs that commanders can use tactically for situation awareness & small loitering munitions that can take out machine-gun nests, artillery etc

While fancy "AI driven swarm drones" make for nice headlines & can help get budget allocation, they are much further away in the future. I'd rather have a Harpy-clone today at the LAC than a swarm-drone in 2030.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby schinnas » 02 Dec 2020 14:55

Perfection is the enemy of progress. Have a big long term vision but focus on fundamentals and don't advertise futuristic capability planning for PR when you don't even have the basics done.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Neilz » 05 Dec 2020 23:14

When we get this swarm capability?
And why now we are revealing ?

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1335059506984747013

#Innovation #Integration #Intimidation
Harnessing indigenous talent and technological capability, IAF is leading the way in using Artificial Intelligence to add to its combat potential. Swarm drones is a prime example. #IndianAirForce
#HarKaamDeshKeNaam


Image
Image
Image

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Dec 2020 01:36

Big question to me is -how does the mothership remain undetected when faced with advanced ADS? This becomes an even greater issue if the mothership has to control the UAVs as suggested in the article above.

The drones have to autonomous.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Ankit Desai » 06 Dec 2020 04:51

So much frustrating. Hats off to IIT Madras boys & ex-DG Arty.



-Ankit

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby andy B » 07 Dec 2020 22:44

Aaah i am so happy that the good doctor is still active on youtube!! :twisted:



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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 09 Dec 2020 04:53

HAL working on converting HAL Kiran into optionally piloted aircraft "Kiran-UAV". I believe this is work which feeds into the loyal wingman program.

There will be an Integrated Control Computer (ICC). There will be three actuators for the existing controls. The commands from the ICC will direct the actuator movements. The commands from the ICC could be from the autopilot (new) or from the internal/external pilot.

The pilot has a master switch to decide the mode of the aircraft: OPA/UAV. In OPA mode internal pilot is flying it manually. ICC keeps giving commands, but the actuators are declutched. In UAV mode, it can be externally or internally piloted or autonomous using the autopilot.

Image

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby NehraA » 15 Dec 2020 01:13

Dear Members,
Request views on best available drone/quadcopter for surveillance & security use. Preferably for an 'off the shelf' purchase in India.

Forgive my ignorance, regards.


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