Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/132 ... 28673?s=20 ---> The armed forces today successfully test-fired the DRDO developed QRSAM, the system has achieved a major milestone by a direct hit on to a Banshee Pilotless target aircraft at the medium range & medium altitude. Probably the test was a part of the user trials.

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/132 ... 58530?s=20 ---> The missile launch took place from ITR Chandipur today at 3:50 pm off the Odisha Coast. The missile is propelled by a single-stage solid-propellant rocket motor and uses all indigenous subsystems. The missile units are canisters for transportation and launch using a mobile launcher.

[asbchakri]

https://zeenews.india.com/india/india-t ... 24871.html

Will this be a user trial kind of test or the new Extended range missile

[Vips]

This will be for testing the extended range (450 KMS).
Just wondering how many years will be before we have the long range Brahmos (800 KMS) inducted in service after all the tests.

[Roop]

Hi Karan M: Is it true that the QRSAM is just another avatar of Astra? i.e. Astra seeker/guidance electronics in a larger frame?

[John]

Pilotless target aircraft at the medium range & medium altitude

Medium altitude seems to imply QRSAM has ability to hit targets above 10km (medium altitude is typically 15km) early some reports put a max ceiling of 6km must be to dismiss that without fully revealing its capability.

[Karan M]

Hi Karan M: Is it true that the QRSAM is just another avatar of Astra? i.e. Astra seeker/guidance electronics in a larger frame?

There are common technology modules but the system in it itself is fairly different aerodynamically. It's not a direct derivative IMHO but purpose designed for the role.

[Karan M]

Pilotless target aircraft at the medium range & medium altitude

Medium altitude seems to imply QRSAM has ability to hit targets above 10km (medium altitude is typically 15km) early some reports put a max ceiling of 6km must be to dismiss that without fully revealing its capability.

I hope you are right.

[nachiket]

Medium altitude seems to imply QRSAM has ability to hit targets above 10km (medium altitude is typically 15km) early some reports put a max ceiling of 6km must be to dismiss that without fully revealing its capability.

I hope you are right.

This would mean a fairly significant overlap with the Akash specs then.

[Karan M]

Well missile wise, yes. But the Akash is a chase you down sort of missile. A ramjet will always have some performance advantages over a conventional motor even if dual pulse. The QRSAM is zip, coast, zip again.

The QRSAM IMHO offers more potential from the survivability point of view as its easier to setup and redeploy and also with a larger number of missiles per launcher, can handle surge attacks better.

The only thing I do wish DRDO explores further are aerostat mounted systems for range coverage against low altitude threats. They are essential to extend the detection bubble for all our SAMs against low altitude threats. We have too few AWACs in our inventory as is. Yes, they are static and hence vulnerable, but they are very useful as an adjunct to AWACS esp during peacetime when they can offer AWACS type coverage without expensive flight hours being pulled on a limited number of airframes. Well its not the only thing but its one of the things.

[Thakur_B]

^^ Unfortunately all DRDO aerostat programs have been damp squibs so far. Neither of Chakshu, Akshadeep and Nakshatra representing small, medium and large aerostats have come to fruition.

[Karan M]

The testbeds were developed. Question is does a program even exist to make an equivalent of the imported heavy duty system, radar and aerostat both. Even the Israeli radars have imported Aerostats from the US. We could do something similar provided the intent is there.

[Karan M]

To answer my own question. Can hoist 200 kg to 1 km.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/akashdeep-medium-class-aerostat

Aslesha is 190 kg bar its power supply which would anyhow be ground based.

The radar horizon vs a target at 30 mtr AGL is a respectable 114km. Would give around 8 minutes of warning time against even a missile flying at 800 km/h.

If the radar is at 1 km, its 153 km.

These are fairly good numbers and I can't understand why the IAF is not seriously looking into these. I am guessing budgetary constraints and the vulnerability of static radars are an issue but as such most of our GBAD radars require heavy networking and multiple numbers to compensate for their limited line of sight vs low flying targets.

If we need to address the cruise missile threat we need these systems.

[Prem Kumar]

For airbase defense, aerostats would be pretty survivable because they're a bit away from active battle zone and the IAF will scramble jets. Taking them down would require very very long range ARMs. But they would provide great defense against long range cruise missiles of the Chinese variety to take care of the initial volley that they will throw at us.

Yes, its a bit baffling that the IAF isn't all over this. Even the IN should be interested, considering our vast coastline. The IN could use a variant that will look out for not just aircraft but also look-down at the sea to detect small craft, massively extending the reach of the coastal, lighthouse mounted radars. This can significantly reduce the workload on the P8Is, Dorniers etc

[ashishvikas]

#India successfully test fires Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile (#QRSAM) with a live warhead for the first time from a test facility off #Odisha coast. The #missile destroys an unmanned target aircraft at medium range.

https://twitter.com/TheHemantRout/statu ... 16962?s=20

[ramana]

KaranM
How is the Pinaka stabilized in flight?
Does it spin like BM-21?
Any idea about the rate?

Thanks.

[Karan M]

KaranM
How is the Pinaka stabilized in flight?
Does it spin like BM-21?
Any idea about the rate?

Thanks.

Spin Stabilized, please see page 17. The rate hasn't been publicly mentioned unless it is in some research paper.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... FPFD5c0fX4

[MeshaVishwas]

https://twitter.com/airforcenextgen/sta ... 83713?s=20
Rail launched missiles FTW.
(Video shows the R-77 ejection from a Su-30MKM)

[andy B]

https://twitter.com/airforcenextgen/sta ... 83713?s=20
Rail launched missiles FTW.
(Video shows the R-77 ejection from a Su-30MKM)

Boss thats an ejector launch. Rail launch doesn't drop the missile it flies off the rail as the motor ignites. The missile slides off the rail IIRC using motor thrust.

Launching off rail directly is utilized for lighter CCMs and some medium range AAMs like Astra i think. Has to do with weight and dimensions if memory serves right. Maybe someone like brar or Indranil can elaborate further...

[brar_w]

Launching off rail directly is utilized for lighter CCMs and some medium range AAMs like Astra i think. Has to do with weight and dimensions if memory serves right. Maybe someone like brar or Indranil can elaborate further...

I don't think it is just about weight. If you need rail launched capability you get it irrespective of the weight. CCM's obviously benefit given their role. The mechanism is utilized on 5 inch diameter weapons,12 inch diameter weapons and everything in between. Weights range from 80 kg to almost 400 kg for common rail launched (air launched) weapons.

[andy B]

Launching off rail directly is utilized for lighter CCMs and some medium range AAMs like Astra i think. Has to do with weight and dimensions if memory serves right. Maybe someone like brar or Indranil can elaborate further...

I don't think it is just about weight. If you need rail launched capability you get it irrespective of the weight. CCM's obviously benefit given their role. The mechanism is utilized on 5 inch diameter weapons,12 inch diameter weapons and everything in between. Weights range from 80 kg to almost 400 kg for common rail launched (air launched) weapons.

Many thanks Brat always love the input

I was thinking more of heavy munitons or missiles (close to a 1000kg or more) and beyond weight would you say size would also be a factor. I guess a larger munition would cause a greater aerodynamic disturbance as it launches off the platform against a weapon with smaller dimensions.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 42240?s=20 ---> BEML will make the motor casing of the QRSAM. This is a welcome development as having multiple manufacturers is essential for the success of Indian MIC. For now missile design work remains exclusively under DRDO even as an increasing share of manufacturing work gets outsourced.

[nam]

The day SFDR flies off Su-30, I would consider we have arrived.

Similarly on the SAM front, the day XRSAM does it's first flight.

This will happen in the next 1-2 years. We would have covered the entire spectrum from virtually nothing 2 decades back.

All done by a sarkari organisation, called various names by lot of people...

[nachiket]

Many thanks Brat always love the input

I was thinking more of heavy munitons or missiles (close to a 1000kg or more) and beyond weight would you say size would also be a factor. I guess a larger munition would cause a greater aerodynamic disturbance as it launches off the platform against a weapon with smaller dimensions.

Missiles carried on the fuselage HP's are also usually ejector launched because the missile's exhaust can otherwise get ingested by the aircraft's air intakes or can damage fuselage panels. You can see this on both the F-15 and the Flanker series. The same missiles may get launched differently depending on where they are carried.

On the original M2k, neither the Super-530D nor the Magic-II had ejector launchers available. So it could carry a2a weaponry only on the 4 under-wing HP's despite having 5 fuselage HP's available. They fixed that with the MICA.

[andy B]

Many thanks Brat always love the input

I was thinking more of heavy munitons or missiles (close to a 1000kg or more) and beyond weight would you say size would also be a factor. I guess a larger munition would cause a greater aerodynamic disturbance as it launches off the platform against a weapon with smaller dimensions.

Missiles carried on the fuselage HP's are also usually ejector launched because the missile's exhaust can otherwise get ingested by the aircraft's air intakes or can damage fuselage panels. You can see this on both the F-15 and the Flanker series. The same missiles may get launched differently depending on where they are carried.

On the original M2k, neither the Super-530D nor the Magic-II had ejector launchers available. So it could carry a2a weaponry only on the 4 under-wing HP's despite having 5 fuselage HP's available. They fixed that with the MICA.

Thats a very important consideration and appreciate pointing it out saar. Man i used to know this need to brush up again last couple years of finance study have ejected some of the more useful aero knowledge

[nachiket]

Man i used to know this need to brush up again last couple years of finance study have ejected some of the more useful aero knowledge

Also because you were absent from BR

[ramana]

He is now back.Thats all that matters.

[ramana]

KaranM thanks.

On page 17 see that red blob in the acceleration graph, that resonance.

Most likely in spin or roll axis. And driven by vortices shed from the curved fins.

If it was lateral axis they would mention being off course.

From Mark I Eye Ball its around 15 HZ roll frequency.

[basant]

Missile scientists encountered multiple challenges developing complex technologies | HSTDV series Part-1

...
Onmanorama interacted with the HSTDV team, capturing the history of the programme and the challenges involved in realizing some of the complex technologies set to serve as the building block for next generation hypersonic vehicles.

Through this three-part series, we bring to you a glimpse of the early years of India’s HSTDV dream, the current state, and the road ahead.
...

[Philip]

Karan ,good point about the aerostats. Costwise quite effective.The new airship designs are far more sophisticated than earlier ones and offer a good solution in plugging gaps in both numbers and airspace to be monitored. A holistic approach to AEW has to be employed. A few aerostats at each key airbase won't break the bank. It would give a 24 X 7 AEW capability out to a few hundred km., increasing base survivability.

[Prem Kumar]

Karan ,good point about the aerostats. Costwise quite effective.The new airship designs are far more sophisticated than earlier ones and offer a good solution in plugging gaps in both numbers and airspace to be monitored. A holistic approach to AEW has to be employed. A few aerostats at each key airbase won't break the bank. It would give a 24 X 7 AEW capability out to a few hundred km., increasing base survivability.

More sophisticated versions of aerostats can also provide mid-course guidance to SAMs to take out low-flying cruise missiles well beyond the line of sight. Of course, that'd be mean that the aerotstat's role goes beyond surveillance towards fire-control.

An aerostat can guide an LRSAM or a QRSAM to intercept a tree-top flying cruise missile even 50 Km away, which would not be possible with ground based radars, thereby increasing base survivability. A challenging project no doubt, but achievable.

Also, I feel that airbases need ABMs that can intercept SRBMs and MRBMs. This is a unique requirement for India, due to China/Pak proximity, as well as China's doctrine of an initial saturation attack. I hope our ABM thinking evolves beyond city-protection towards base-protection. Once again, this is the reason why *some* ABM deployments (just like some Shourya, Prithvi deployments) need to be in the hands of the IAF/IA and not the SFC

Depending on the location, geography etc, overlapping ABM bubbles could protect multiple air-bases

[andy B]

Also because you were absent from BR

Ha! Saar i was in receive only mode. Cant help but read BR every now and then betwee study and work but hot damn threads moves fast

[andy B]

He is now back.Thats all that matters.

Kind words Ramana boss thanks!

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/13 ... 89156?s=20 ---> Let the guesswork begin...



https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/133 ... 02499?s=20 ---> HSTDV

[Karan M]

with that shape there's literally nothing to guess.

[andy B]

with that shape there's literally nothing to guess.

Sir ji true that! Gotta say that looks supa TFTA!

I wonder if there is a scenario where we these type of munitions can be deployed with just kinetic warheads like a tungsten core or depleted uranium core to just punch through hardened shelters and fortified targets

[Rakesh]

with that shape there's literally nothing to guess.

So true. Anantha has his quirks

[Vips]

Astra air combat missile to be soon tested from Tejas.

India’s first indigenous air-to-air missile Astra will soon be tested from the first home-grown fighter Tejas, in yet another major step
towards making the weapon the mainstay of the country’s combat fleet against hostile jets in the years ahead.

The integration of the Astra beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), which flies over four times the speed of sound at Mach 4.5, on
the Tejas and the “initial ground trials” are virtually complete now. “The flight trials of the indigenous missile on the indigenous fighter will begin
within the next few months,” said a source on Thursday.

The all-weather day and night capable Astra, which currently has a strike range of around 100-km, will eventually replace the expensive Russian, French and Israeli BVRAAMs that are currently imported to arm IAF fighters.

DRDO also plans to begin testing the Mark-2 version of Astra, with a range of 160-km, in the first half of next year. Plans are concurrently underway for a 350-km range Astra Mark-3 as well, said the sources.

With the sleek Astra Mark-1 already “proven” on the Russian-origin Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, the Rajnath Singh-led Defence Acquisitions Council granted “acceptance of necessity” for an initial order of 288 missiles in July.

“Once the flight trials on Tejas are completed, large-scale orders will follow,” said a source. Defence PSU Bharat Dynamics is slated to produce the missiles in bulk at a unit cost of about Rs 7.5 crore.

This comes at a time when the over Rs 37,000 crore order for 83 Tejas Mark-1A fighter jets from defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is also on the verge of being approved, in what will then be the biggest-ever deal in the indigenous military aviation sector.

Air Chief Marshal R K S Bhadauria last month said the 83-Tejas deal will be inked before the ongoing fiscal ends on March 31.

IAF is currently getting deliveries, albeit slowly, of the first 40 Tejas Mark-1 jets under two contracts worth Rs 8,802 crore inked earlier.

India may have developed intercontinental ballistic missiles like the nuclear-capable Agni-V, which can strike targets over 5,000-km away, but the technical struggle to develop Astra has taken 16 long years. But India has now finally joined the ranks of the US, Russia, France and Israel in developing such complex BVRAAMs capable of detecting, tracking and destroying highly-agile hostile supersonic fighters packed with “counter-measures’’ at long ranges.

DRDO says Astra has “excellent” ECCM (electronic counter-counter measures) to tackle jamming by hostile aircraft, active radar terminal guidance and other features for “high single-shot kill probability” in both “head-on and tail-chase” modes. The IAF, too, has now given it a thumbs-up!

[ramana]

Its a fire started here in BRF.

[Vivek K]

The author misses out on the complexity of miniaturization of a missile, adding the appropriate seekers and processing to kill a target in 3D space.

[fanne]

Its a fire started here in BRF.

you mean demand for Astra?
If that is true, the other missile that is up our ally (but not moving fast enough) is SFDR.
It can have the same radar seeker as Astra 1, same ECCM and other electronics. What is needed different propulsion - Ramjet (which we have demoed once). DRDO scientists do not tire from pointing out how good we are at propulsion (seeker tech was the difficult area). Perhaps we can hustle this one fast. It is needed and within our capability, perhaps it needs push from the top.