India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 17 Nov 2020 13:39

Pakistan deploys additional forces along LoC

Pakistani army has deployed additional snipers along the Line of Control (LoC). Around 7-8 Pakistan Army soldiers were killed, and 10-12 were injured after Indian Army retaliated to the ceasefire violations done by Pakistan along the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir on November 13. The Indian Army destroyed bunkers across the Line of Control in multiple locations. The bunkers consisted of cache of ammunitions. According to Indian Army, large numbers of Pakistan Army bunkers, fuel dumps, and launch pads have also been destroyed.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Nov 2020 13:51

How are they deploying, by trucks jeeps through mountain roads, we must not wait, cut off these roads bridges, artillery, helicopters at helipads, Communication and electrical infrastructure.

No point waiting till they ambush.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 17 Nov 2020 14:10

Additional snipers are being deployed. So there won't be any visible movement of troops.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Nov 2020 15:02

Yes, I hope our own snipers with sniper detection technologies put paid to these.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Nov 2020 22:57

If true, this is the kind of action I was expecting from IA

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/1328340396351528960

IA foiled enemy's intention to attack IA's positions in Tangdhar sector of Kupwara with ATGMs & rockets.On credible input,IA b|asted enemy's vehicle full of ammunition in Neelum Valley when it was moving towards LoC.Currently heavy cross LoC shelling is going on.

Meanwhile Pakis have tried using some of the Azeri tactics

https://www.deccanherald.com/national/n ... 06368.html

Surveillance drone shot down by Army along LoC in north Kashmirl

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 18 Nov 2020 00:26

China 'used secret microwave pulse weapon to cook Indian soldiers alive' and force them into retreat in Himalayan border battle
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... diers.html

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Nov 2020 00:42

^^^Not substantiated. Bogus Chinese bluff.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 18 Nov 2020 01:42

dinesha wrote:China 'used secret microwave pulse weapon to cook Indian soldiers alive' and force them into retreat in Himalayan border battle
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... diers.html

ROFL

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 18 Nov 2020 01:49

This drone stuff might work against an enemy who cant fight back with air force - like Armenia. The value for India is to reduce exposure of its air force. We should be able use the armed drones against Pak. should be useful in 2-front scenario. it is easier to train and field drone operators than AF pilots - imagine having a 1000 of them piloted from a nondescript building in chennai

John · Post by **John** » 18 Nov 2020 02:17

Aditya_V wrote:Meanwhile Pakis have tried using some of the Azeri tactics

This is not new they been doing this for long time heck even Palestinians and Syrian insurgents done this years ago, pretty easy to get a DJI drone and use it for reconnaissance or put grenade on it and use it to attack targets.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 18 Nov 2020 02:32

Not very cost effective when IA is going to plaster them with artillery in response.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 18 Nov 2020 02:34

dinesha wrote:China 'used secret microwave pulse weapon to cook Indian soldiers alive' and force them into retreat in Himalayan border battle
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... diers.html

This is the CCP nutjob's variant of Zaid Hamid's "Jinns fought on our side in the 1965 war" yarn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyUVGCmUFcc

durairaaj · Post by **durairaaj** » 18 Nov 2020 04:29

There my be truth in Chinese claims of using microwave weapons.

1)There was reconnaissance photo, a top view, released from US, immediately after the Galwan incident that mapped microwave disturbances in the valley, At that time it was mentioned in the tweets that Chinese have deployed radars in the valleys to prevent ingressing fighter aircrafts.

2) Also, in every agreement with our MEA their insistence on agreeing to non usage firearms, indicate that they may have directed energy weapons. as the agreement does not involve directed energy weapons(DEW) or sound weapons using infrasonics. They may use these options in the future, while Indian army will have no other options to respond and thereby may violate the agreement. This could become a cause for Chinese to initiate war in the future, when they are ready.

3) The use of tanks could protect the crew from DEW. Because microwaves heat metal and get absorbed but the energy wont be sufficient to melt it or heat enough to make it uncomfortable for soldiers to stay in.

So future agreements if MEA agrees with Chinese, must also include non-use of DEW, ultrasonics or mechanical weapons. Right now the Chinese have a loophole in this. We don't know yet how useful microwave weapon is. But its not bad to put it in the agreement not to use that also, if we are agreeing to not use firearms.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 18 Nov 2020 05:19

That China may have a low-mid powered operational ADS might not be very far fetched. In fact it would be surprising if they don't. But is there any physical evidence pointing to a system deployment in the region?

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 18 Nov 2020 05:28

durairaaj wrote:There my be truth in Chinese claims of using microwave weapons.

Short answer which the Galwan episode proves is this: if they dared to microwave our lads, we would have tandoored twice their lads after marinating them overnight in an tub of soy sauce and call it a draw.

Go easy on deductive vs inductive reasoning trips, durairaaj, unless you want to scare us that the Chinese side is always truthful about their alleged technological superiority?

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 18 Nov 2020 05:44

brar_w wrote:That China may have a low-mid powered operational ADS might not be very far fetched. In fact it would be surprising if they don't. But is there any physical evidence pointing to a system deployment in the region?

The idea that they have actually been able to use anything like that to get Indian soldiers occupying peaks to vacate (as claimed by the article), is pretty far fetched.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 18 Nov 2020 05:53

How do they get the required energy to power these weapons on the mountain tops? Fuel has to be carried, do they have electric power lines up there? Range seems to be 600m or so, so close range to the Indian positions. It’s an open area, how many of these truck mounted things would be required?

Seems to me a lot of effort for something that can be defeated using even sheets of thick aluminium foil ...

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 18 Nov 2020 06:16

based on the current science, microwaving in an open area over such large ranges, would require very high power and doesnt seem very easy. It would require a very high power source to generate microwaves that could make things difficult over a long distance. Why do I say longer distance, as the range of AK 47, which is widely used by IA is roughly 300-400 m. In mountains could be higher as we are talking about less air density and have the height advantage so Chinese would want to be out of that range. Even mortar(80 MM has 3–4 Km), and artillery (goes upto 30–40Km) longer distances. And you need a line of sight. You cant do indirect fire with a DEW. Assuming they had the advantage of stealth and may be night, and managed to sneak in 0.5-1 Km range. Now all EM waves work under inverse square law (that’s why you dont “generally” communicate with microwave). So you will need much more power. Now go and look at your kitchen microwave and imagine that how much power it would need to to make someone feel burning at a distance of 1Km. Now it would need at least a small diesel generator sized power source. Keeping that silent, moving that stealthily in the heights we are dealing would be a remarkable feat. It would be very hard to hide.

On air based platforms it would be less feasible to expose for large periods and through larger distances and with the attenuation due to clouds, snow and moisture.

Now we haven't considered the possibility that the soldiers may just use a stone or a cement sack, which are always available in bunkers to hide themselves or just retreat inside for the time being or change positions to hit the enemy if they have detected them and when chinese come to take the position, they are minced using the old ak47s or bayonets or galwan style neck snapping.

In a nutshell, this story, while not impossible is definitely implausible. Although less funny than their racist videos or the fact that they have hidden their causalities so far. But yes Chinese fanboys are welcome to drink the cool aid of chinese gizmos.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 18 Nov 2020 06:21

dinesha wrote:China 'used secret microwave pulse weapon to cook Indian soldiers alive' and force them into retreat in Himalayan border battle
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... diers.html

If (a big if) at all they used DEW against India then it just reinforces the reputation of chinkos producing flop and defective products

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Nov 2020 11:59

If the Chinese had deployment/used such a weapon they wouldn't be at the negotiating table but rather sitting at those ridgelines/peaks and thumbing thier nose at India. That they are the negotiating table is the first counter factual.

The latest writeup in the Chinese state media where they are still accusing India of crossing the LAC is the second counter factual.

You can't have both at the same time. Simple.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Nov 2020 13:16

brar_w wrote:That China may have a low-mid powered operational ADS might not be very far fetched. In fact it would be surprising if they don't. But is there any physical evidence pointing to a system deployment in the region?

ADS uses millimeter wavelength and is really for crowd control. Power densities for doing anything more than surface heating becomes a challenge. This appears to be Chinese propaganda.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 18 Nov 2020 13:31

V_Raman wrote:This drone stuff might work against an enemy who cant fight back with air force - like Armenia. The value for India is to reduce exposure of its air force. We should be able use the armed drones against Pak. should be useful in 2-front scenario. it is easier to train and field drone operators than AF pilots - imagine having a 1000 of them piloted from a nondescript building in chennai

India and Pakistan, both are using cheap drones, mostly quadcopters for recon since 2-3 years. Pakis are also using bigger ones to drop drugs and sometimes weapons, in J&K and Punjab. Both shoot down these machines with rifles and sometimes machine guns all the time.
Majority of all these drones are the cheap commercial grade type.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Nov 2020 16:42

pankajs wrote:If the Chinese had deployment/used such a weapon they wouldn't be at the negotiating table but rather sitting at those ridgelines/peaks and thumbing thier nose at India. That they are the negotiating table is the first counter factual.

The latest writeup in the Chinese state media where they are still accusing India of crossing the LAC is the second counter factual.

You can't have both at the same time. Simple.

https://twitter.com/InsightGL/status/13 ... 7146692609

People’s Daily #CCP’s official newspaper:
-India should first withdraw staff who illegally crossed line on S side of Pangong & #China will then consider disengaging on northern side of lake
-Surprise surprise...& Peaceniks had already started singing Chinese paeans

Biraders ...

Whyfore the Beepul's daily demands that India pull back from the Kailsah range when PLA has already pushed IA back by using their latust "microwave pulse" weepon hanji?

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 18 Nov 2020 17:33

Indian Army establishes living facilities for all troops deployed in eastern Ladakh

LEH: With the military standoff in eastern Ladakh dragging on through the winter months, the Indian Army has completed work on habitat facilities for all the troops deployed in the region to ensure operational efficiency.
Army said that apart from smart camps with integrated facilities which have been built over the years, additional state-of-the-art habitats with integrated arrangements for electricity, water, heating facilities, health and hygiene have been recently created to accommodate the troops.

#WATCH Eastern Ladakh: In order to ensure operational efficiency of troops deployed in winters, Indian Army has com… https://t.co/sfDYESE8gQ
— ANI (@ANI) 1605687675000

"Troops in frontline are accommodated in heated tents as per tactical considerations of their deployment. In addition, adequate civil infrastructure has also been identified to cater for any emergent requirements," it said.
The region sees temperature dipping to minus 30-40 degrees Celsius and experiences up to 40 feet of snowfall after the month of November. In addition, road access to the region also get affected for a brief period of time, it said.
"In order to ensure operational efficiency of troops deployed in winters, Indian Army has completed establishment of habitat facilities for all troops deployed in the sector," the Army said.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 18 Nov 2020 17:53

Mort Walker wrote:
brar_w wrote:That China may have a low-mid powered operational ADS might not be very far fetched. In fact it would be surprising if they don't. But is there any physical evidence pointing to a system deployment in the region?
ADS uses millimeter wavelength and is really for crowd control. Power densities for doing anything more than surface heating becomes a challenge. This appears to be Chinese propaganda.

I never said it wasn't Chinese propaganda hence why I asked of physical proof of it being deployed. Military ADS systems do exist and I believe the Chinese have shown mockups etc as well in the past. Though as I said nothing we know of points to a similar system having been deployed. They may be non-lethal by design (which also lends itself to crowd control). Even if this were to be true (and we have no proof of it), it wouldn't be the first time the Chinese military has used low-powered directed energy against other troops. USAF pilots have been encountering low powered dazzlers and lasers in both Africa and the pacific and I believe they even used something like that against a USN vessel.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 18 Nov 2020 18:34

Indian Army sets up habitat facilities for troops deployed in eastern Ladakh amid China row.

"Troops in frontline are accommodated in heated tents as per tactical considerations of their deployment. In addition, adequate civil infrastructure has also been identified to cater for any emergent requirements,"

Porta cabins.

As the border standoff with China in eastern Ladakh shows no signs of immediate resolution, the Indian Army has created modern habitats with all required facilities for thousands of troops deployed in the high-altitude region which is under the grip of harsh winter, government sources said on Wednesday.

The habitats have been provided with proper heating facilities as the region receives up to 40 feet of snow after November every year while temperatures fall up to minus 40 degree Celsius in the winter months, they said.

“In order to ensure operational efficiency of troops deployed in winters, the Indian Army has completed establishment of habitat facilities for all troops deployed in the sector,” said a source.

Barrel type shelters.

Nearly 50,000 troops of the Indian Army are currently deployed in a high state of combat readiness in various mountainous locations in eastern Ladakh in sub-zero conditions as multiple rounds of talks between India and China have not yielded any concrete outcome to resolve the military standoff that erupted in early May. China has also deployed an equal number of troops, according to officials.
“Apart from the smart camps with integrated facilities which have been built over the years, additional state of the art habitats with integrated arrangements for electricity, water, heating facilities, health and hygiene have been recently created to accommodate the troops,” the source said.

Fast erectable modular shelter.

The frontline troops are being accommodated in heated tents as per tactical considerations of their deployment, sources said.
In addition, adequate civil infrastructure has also been identified to cater to any emergent requirements, they added.
The armies of India and China have held eight rounds of Corps Commander-level talks so far but no breakthrough has been achieved yet to resolve the standoff.
The last round of military talks was held on November 6 during which both sides broadly discussed disengagement of troops from specific friction points.

A-vehicles sheds.

A joint statement issued after the talks said both sides agreed to maintain dialogue and communication through military and diplomatic channels, and take forward the discussions for the settlement of outstanding issues.
India has all along been maintaining that the onus is on China to carry forward the process of disengagement and de-escalation at the friction points in the mountainous region.
Following the sixth round of military talks, the two sides had announced a slew of decisions including not to send more troops to the frontline, refrain from unilaterally changing the situation on the ground and avoid taking any actions that may further complicate matters.

Containers.

The sixth round was held with a specific agenda of exploring ways to implement a five-point agreement reached between External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar and his Chinese counterpart Wang Yi at a meeting in Moscow on September 10 on the sidelines of a Shanghai Cooperation Organisation(SCO) conclave.
The pact included measures like quick disengagement of troops, avoiding action that could escalate tensions, adherence to all agreements and protocols on border management and steps to restore peace along the Line of Actual Control(LAC).
The region sees temperature dipping to minus 30-40 degrees Celsius and experiences up to 40 feet of snowfall after the month of November. In addition, road access to the region also get affected for a brief period of time, it said.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Nov 2020 19:43

How can Cheena claim to have pushed India back from the Kailash range and yet demand that India vacate the Kailash range?

https://twitter.com/atahasnain53/status ... 4596300805

I learn that China is spreading such misformation as the one below. Don't believe an iota of this. All the heights we occupied continue to remain with us. I learn this very authoritatively.

Cheena too know this and therefore is asking IA to vacate the Kailash range. Ofcourse Cheena wants to look stlong infront of Cheenaman and International audience and therefore such crude propaganda spread via their lackeys in the bestern media.

Cheena knows such disinformation via Gobar times just won't cut it therefore international media. Cheena has moles everywhere.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 18 Nov 2020 20:40

Daily mail is a for purchase tabloid in UK known for sensationalist gibberish. Surprised that it is being given this much mindspace in this forum.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 18 Nov 2020 20:42

https://www.thestatesman.com/opinion/to ... 35688.html

Towards disengagement and de-escalation
HARSHA KAKAR
The writer is a retired Major-General of the Indian Army.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 18 Nov 2020 20:52

pankajs wrote:How can Cheena claim to have pushed India back from the Kailash range and yet demand that India vacate the Kailash range?

https://twitter.com/atahasnain53/status ... 4596300805
I learn that China is spreading such misformation as the one below. Don't believe an iota of this. All the heights we occupied continue to remain with us. I learn this very authoritatively.
Cheena too know this and therefore is asking IA to vacate the Kailash range. Ofcourse Cheena wants to look stlong infront of Cheenaman and International audience and therefore such crude propaganda spread via their lackeys in the bestern media.

Cheena knows such disinformation via Gobar times just won't cut it therefore international media. Cheena has moles everywhere.

India should make use of this (even if in a condescending/mocking way) by countering China's "Indian intruders should leave" statement with "But Chinese brofessor claimed that the peaks were already vacated thanks to Chinese microwaves". I think that we should have a quasi-official parody of Global Times (perhaps called Local Times) that constantly mocks the Chinese.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 19 Nov 2020 18:01

There are more articles released in the press in the last few days about the PLA activities. PLA is only reinforcing their positions and building capacity in the Depsang area. If anything this strengthens their negotiating position. GOI will respond appropriately.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Nov 2020 19:48

Are these news reports of Indian strikes on terrorist training camps in Pakistan occupied J&K real? Idiots reading the news just kept repeating one line in different words like they usually do.

Indian ARMY did AIR STRIKES in #PoK

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 19 Nov 2020 19:55

WION was the first to report but now multiple channels are reporting IAF struck terror launchpads inside PoK earlier this evening. IA also eliminated 4 terrorists travelling in a truck in Jammu yesterday, and earlier today nearly took out the top JeM commander in Kupwara but unfortunately he slipped away. After the US elections, Pakis as usual are trying to make the most of this opportunity by pushing uniformed and un-uniformed terrorists into our borders, we've lost 11 soldiers in the last 2 weeks alone, i hope we extracted 5 times the price.

EDIT : Shiv Aroor claims there's not been any airstrikes across the border but his channel is reporting there were airstrikes earlier this evening. Unconfirmed reports now say IA also says there were no strikes or shelling on the LOC. Fog of war.

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Nov 2020 19:58

IA has said, no firing today.

Our media would have added mirch masala to some rumours....

With Malabar going on, there will no chance we will do a thing like this..

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 19 Nov 2020 20:05

Its a race between traditional media and social media. News channels are still reporting about airstrikes but the posts by those very channels online are fast disappearing almost in unison. Either the pakis controlling twitter are deleting them all or somehow the social media rooms of all the Indian news channels decided to first report about the strikes and later simultaneously delete the original posts . All in all it is pretty strange where this news originated from and how quickly its been put to rest.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Nov 2020 20:07

This time of year before snowfall always has a bit more action due to Pakis trying to push in as many terrorists as possible before most routes close down. Cant really trust credibility of news these days. Most channels are saying "air strikes", so it will be Air Force if true.
Or the dumbasses in news channels just started posting based on some rumour or old news.

India carrying out 'pinpoint strikes' on terror launchpads inside PoK: Govt sources

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 306174.cms

NEW DELHI: The Indian Army is carrying out "pinpoint strikes" on suspected terror launchpads inside Pakistan-occupied Kashmir in response to Pakistani military's unrelenting efforts to push maximum number of terrorists into India before the onset of harsh winters, sources in the security establishment said on Thursday.

The 'deep state' in Pakistan has tried to manage a fine balance between escaping the scrutiny by global anti-terror watchdog FATF and supporting terror at the same time with an aim to fuel unrest in Jammu and Kashmir, they said.

In the last few weeks, Pakistan Army has been aggressively targeting civilians on Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC) by resorting to indiscriminate firing by heavy calibre artillery guns to support infiltration of terrorists into Jammu and Kashmir, they said.

This year, 21 innocent civilians have lost their lives in Pakistani firing compared to 18 in the whole of 2019, according to official data.

The sources said intelligence-based targeted strikes are being conducted by the Indian Army to neutralise mostly Pakistani and foreign terrorists, and the collateral damage has been very negligible in these operations.

The new pattern being followed by Islamabad in "inciting" unrest and arm the youths in Jammu and Kashmir has been to avoid any trace of its involvement in view of the growing international pressure on it to take action against terror groups operating from its soil, they said.

"Pakistan has sought to target the peaceful villagers living alongside the Indian side of the LoC in order to send a message to the inhabitants of Kashmiri hinterland that to disobey Pakistani diktats and directives on terrorism will prove lethal," said a military source.

Triggering a major flare up, Pakistan resorted to heavy shelling in several areas along the LoC in north Kashmir on Friday killing five security personnel apart from at least four civilians.

The Indian Army mounted a major retaliation pounding several Pakistani positions with anti-tank guided missiles and artillery guns in which at least eight Pakistani soldiers were killed and 12 others injured.

"Pakistan Army's actions to exclusively target civilians are countered by Indian Army's pinpoint strikes on suspected launchpads inside Pakistan-Occupied-Kashmir," the source said, adding deaths of terrorists in the area are shown as civilian deaths by Pakistan in order to garner sympathy and aid from foreign donors.

Pakistani military has also been resorting to firing at Indian Army posts along the LoC with heavy calibre weapons, the sources said.

This year eight infiltration bids were foiled and 14 terrorists have been neutralised along the LoC, according to official data.

The sources said Pakistan has been strongly guarding the location of terrorist training camps following India's Balakot air strikes last year. Indian war planes pounded a Jaish-e-Mohammed terrorist training camp deep inside Pakistan on February 26 last year in response to Pulwama terror attack in which 40 CRPF soldiers were killed.

The Indian action reflected a doctrinal change in the country's approach in tackling cross border terrorism.

Indian Army carrying out 'pinpoint strikes' on terror launchpads in PoK: Report
In the last few weeks, Pakistan Army has been aggressively targeting civilians on Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC) by resorting to indiscriminate firing by heavy calibre artillery guns to support infiltration of terrorists into Jammu and Kashmir.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2020-11-19

The Indian Army is carrying out "pinpoint strikes" on suspected terror launchpads inside Pakistan-occupied Kashmir in response to Pakistani military's unrelenting efforts to push maximum number of terrorists into India before the onset of harsh winters, sources in the security establishment said on Thursday.

The 'deep state' in Pakistan has tried to manage a fine balance between escaping the scrutiny by global anti-terror watchdog FATF and supporting terror at the same time with an aim to fuel unrest in Jammu and Kashmir, they said.

In the last few weeks, Pakistan Army has been aggressively targeting civilians on Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC) by resorting to indiscriminate firing by heavy calibre artillery guns to support infiltration of terrorists into Jammu and Kashmir, they said.

This year, 21 innocent civilians have lost their lives in Pakistani firing compared to 18 in the whole of 2019, according to official data.

The sources said intelligence-based targeted strikes are being conducted by the Indian Army to neutralise mostly Pakistani and foreign terrorists, and the collateral damage has been very negligible in these operations.

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Nov 2020 20:12

Apparently PTI came out with the news based on what happened on 13th. Everything else is usual masala by our news gang.

Some heavy hammering was given on 13th.

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Nov 2020 20:40

So today's attack on Jammu must have been in response to our strikes on 13th..

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 19 Nov 2020 22:01

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/china-s ... te-2327563

China Sets Up Village Within Bhutan, 9 Km From Doklam Face-Off Site

Ramu · Post by **Ramu** » 19 Nov 2020 23:02

What we flatten should technically belong to us.