Indian Naval Aviation

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Nov 2020 05:01

Well the USN is examining light carriers v.seriously,our req.is still there for 4 amphibs.My proposal saves both money and resources. Turning the amphibs into force- multipliers instead of single-use vessels. It eill cost far less than a $10+B large CV. Spanish JC amphibs are somewhat similar using STOVL aircraft, similar vessels being built for OZ. These 35+ K vessels will approximating the same size as Vikrant-2. Using the same flight deck which we have designed and built will be a simple job. The main Q is aircraft. If the flight deck is the same,our exg. 29Ks and NLCAs can operate from it. Larger lifts will permit larger aircraft in the future,even JSFs later on if the US will sell them to us. More number of flat tops increase survivability too instead of just a few. The PRC is testing a new huge carrier-killer ASM,supposedly the largest ASM in the world intended for the
USN's super- carriers. In fact with current modular missile silos able to carry a mix of missiles covering all threats from sub-surface,surface,air and land attack, even large DDGs and CGs could adopt a flat top config. and carry a larger batch of helos ,as well as JSFs/ STOVL aircraft too.

In the '60s,the RN had a unique class of cruiser,the Tiger class.Approx. 12000t. Tiger and Blake forward had 6",3" guns,Seacat SAMs,etc.Aft was a large helo hangar and flight deck which accommodated 4 Sea King helos. The French did something similar with the Jeanne d'Arc 13000t cruiser,adding a 200m flight deck and lifts.It performed assault, trg. ASW missions with 10 embarked helos,served for 46 years! Had Exocet missiles and 100mm guns too.Italy had smaller Vittorio Veneto and Andrea Dorio equivs.This metamorphased into the latest 2004 Cavour flat top,only 24,000t,but carries 12 large helos and 8 Harriers. The Italians place air ops as first priority.

From the above examples one can see the usefulness in having our 4 amphibs also serve as light carriers,saving much moolah in the process,with more flat tops and their air complement available for IOR duties.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Nov 2020 12:24

Let's beg to disagree.Simply copying the PLAN who have rhd vastness of the Pacific and USN to deal with,large CVs may be reqd. We strategically geographically placed in thd centre of the IOR can with LR strike aircraft ,like the Bears we had,fly to S.Africa and back without refuelling,carrying 2500km range Kalibir and other missiles,hypersonic to come. We have NO expeditionary agenda unlike the USN, but subs a- plenty are reqd. The PLAN will have 80+ subs v.soonplusthe ability to build 4 N-subs simultaneously.Think about that.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Nov 2020 21:45

Philip wrote:Well the USN is examining light carriers v.seriously,our req.is still there for 4 amphibs.My proposal saves both money and resources. Turning the amphibs into force- multipliers instead of single-use vessels. It eill cost far less than a $10+B large CV. Spanish JC amphibs are somewhat similar using STOVL aircraft, similar vessels being built for OZ. These 35+ K vessels will approximating the same size as Vikrant-2. Using the same flight deck which we have designed and built will be a simple job. The main Q is aircraft. If the flight deck is the same,our exg. 29Ks and NLCAs can operate from it. Larger lifts will permit larger aircraft in the future,even JSFs later on if the US will sell them to us. More number of flat tops increase survivability too instead of just a few. The PRC is testing a new huge carrier-killer ASM,supposedly the largest ASM in the world intended for the
USN's super- carriers. In fact with current modular missile silos able to carry a mix of missiles covering all threats from sub-surface,surface,air and land attack, even large DDGs and CGs could adopt a flat top config. and carry a larger batch of helos ,as well as JSFs/ STOVL aircraft too.

The common thread for all those flat tops in Japan, South Korea, Italy, Spain, US etc is the F-35B with its STOVL performance and other capabilities. It gets you better than F/A-18 A/C level of range/payload (Combat radius of 800+ Km with a strike load of bombs and missiles and with reserve fuel for a recovery profile. A2A Combat radius is closer to 950 km) despite being a supersonic STOVL aircraft with VLO and an internal weapons bay. This is a multi-generation leap over what the Harrier was capable of. Take that away and most of these flat tops get back to being helicopter carriers only. Not ONE end user has ever seriously explored putting CTOL fighters on these vessels. Another enabler that adds flexibility is the V-22. Whether that is high speed movement of people or cargo, or the ability to offload fuel to the F-35B, it is an organic capability that just cannot be had with traditional helicopters both due to the limitations of individual platforms and the limitations of these flat top designs in terms of how many physical aircraft they can support (which justifies fewer, more capable aircraft given the real estate challenge).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Nov 2020 22:59

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/13227 ... 98048?s=20 ---> Fulcrum ... shortest take-off roll on the planet. Reaping the benefits - INS Vikramaditya with a Maritime Fulcrum unfolding it's wings & lining up for the roar.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Nov 2020 16:29

Yes,just as the Harrier revolutionised carrier warfare,so too has the JSF-B with STOVL and stealth capability is turning over a new
leaf from this decade,allowing smaller flat tops to boost their firepower hugely.Glitches are still there but arebeing sorted out.
The design of these CVs should be also incorporate a measure of integral air defence with SAMs/ SSMs in flush-deck silos to allow more aircraft available for maritime strike. I don't know if it has been thought of but a JSF with a LW torpedo munition could be a v.useful asset in ASW.The USN has had no replacement for the S- 3 Viking.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 05 Nov 2020 19:27

For ASW you need time-on-station. It is the most important metric. Fighters are generally poor at that.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Nov 2020 01:02

brar_w wrote:For ASW you need time-on-station. It is the most important metric. Fighters are generally poor at that.

now, are we are doing ASW with fighters

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Nov 2020 02:00

As a speedy delivery system option,not a loitering ASW hunter.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 06 Nov 2020 03:05

Philip wrote:As a speedy delivery system option,not a loitering ASW hunter.

So who will do the detecting?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Nov 2020 03:33

Sikorsky MH-60R ---> https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... elicopters

The Indian Navy acquired 24 of them.

True Beast.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 06 Nov 2020 04:32

Philip wrote:As a speedy delivery system option,not a loitering ASW hunter.

Easy enough to integrate something like the HAAWC kitted lightweight torpedos on most tactical fighters. Though there is something to be said about optimal utilization of a limited number of fast jets on a flat top that is also capable of supporting large(er) number of dedicated ASW helos and unmanned MPA capability to provide that mission.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Nov 2020 04:59

Multiple assets in NCW.Imagine a scenario where there is a contact say just 300+km away,just out of range of its anti-ship missiles, identified as hostile from UAVs,USVs,surface vessels whatever. The UAV has no ASW munition, the surface combatants no LR ASW weaponry, plus would take considerable time for an ASW helo to prosecute. A fighter let's say with an anti-sub LW torpedo ,say similar to what the P-8I carries, could race towards the contact ,coordinates and deliver the weapon in much faster time than a much slower helo.

Tx. Brar for the HWAAC pic. It would be an extra option available.As I said before,there has been no replacement for the S-3A Viking.If the CVs had a variety of integral missiles incl. LR ASW missiles,the CV could fire a round or two instead of using any kind of ASW air asset.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 06 Nov 2020 05:24

Philip wrote:Brar for the HWAAC pic. It would be an extra option available.As I said before,there has been no replacement for the S-3A Viking.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&p=2468518#p2468518

nam · Post by **nam** » 07 Nov 2020 16:09

Nimitiz is joining in for Malabar near Goa. I wonder if it will be coming with F35.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 07 Nov 2020 18:29

nam wrote:Nimitiz is joining in for Malabar near Goa. I wonder if it will be coming with F35.

Nope. The first F-35C operational squadron is currently training and integrating with CVN-70 (Carl Vinson) carrier group ahead of its 2021 deployment. That will constitute the first operational F-35C cruise (likely to extend 4 months) aboard a CVN. Nimitz (CVN-68) probably won't have operational F-35C's on cruise until at least 2022. The USMC now has 2 operational F-35B squadrons permanently in the Pacific so it is possible that one of their flat tops with a few F-35B's could join the exercise.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Nov 2020 11:55

Have their been any trials using a V-22 in an ASW mode?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 09 Nov 2020 22:49

Philip wrote:Have their been any trials using a V-22 in an ASW mode?

No but much like anything else isn’t about developing the platform for this roll but integrating through mission suite just as they did for COD, refueling and special forces needs. A RO/RO launcher and additional sensors will get them there. The USN has that requirement rolled into their FvL on ramp and the he USMC wants to move this to an unmanned VTOL platform so its not a major funding area.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Nov 2020 05:09

brar_w wrote:
Philip wrote:As a speedy delivery system option,not a loitering ASW hunter.
Easy enough to integrate something like the HAAWC kitted lightweight torpedos on most tactical fighters. Though there is something to be said about optimal utilization of a limited number of fast jets on a flat top that is also capable of supporting large(er) number of dedicated ASW helos and unmanned MPA capability to provide that mission.

This is what I had envisioned when I had first heard of SMART.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Nov 2020 23:15

https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/132 ... 51778?s=20 ---> 150th Do-228 aircraft produced by HAL was handed over to Rear Admiral VM Doss, VSM, ACNS (AM) by Shri R Madhavan, CMD, HAL on 11 November 2020 at Kanpur.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Nov 2020 23:57

Old picture of the P-8I Neptune...

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 70369?s=20 ---> First P-8I of Indian Navy in Seattle under construction.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 16 Nov 2020 17:20

India to get more eyes to monitor Chinese presence in IOR & SCS: Navy to get P8i Aircraft

The configuration of the aircraft expected to arrive soon will be of the same configuration as the previous eight that are in service in the Indian Navy. Also, as reported by Financial Express Online earlier, there are plans of installing encrypted communications systems which have been delivered earlier. After India and the US inked the Communications, Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA), the installation of the encrypted communications systems on these P8i aircraft. These aircraft are coming from the Boeing Company.

The contract for eight P-8I between India and the Boeing Company was inked for USD 2.1 billion in 2009. These aircraft are coming through the Foreign Military Sales Route (FMS) and India was the first international customer for this aircraft. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) placed a follow on order for additional four P-8I in 2016. And the DAC has given approval for more P-8I in November last year.

What is onboard the P8i for the Indian Navy

These aircraft are equipped with the most modern anti-submarine warfare (ASW) Technology.

These include a Telephonics APS-143. This is not available on the original P-8A Poseidon in use with the USN

The OceanEye Aft Radar System.

Magnetic anomaly detector.

The weapons systems including Harpoon Block-II missiles and MK-54 lightweight torpedoes come with the aircraft India has.

These aircraft are all data-linked with Indian submarines. This makes them capable of passing all critical information about the enemy vessels.

Indian Naval Air Squadron 312A, is the P-8I Squadron, is operating out of naval air station Rajali, based in the South.

In P-8I, the `I’ stands for India and it is the Indian Navy variant of the P-8A Poseidon and is for maritime patrol.

It has the capability to carry around 129 sonobuoys which help in locating the enemy subs and can also be used for launching anti-ship missiles.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 16 Nov 2020 17:34

https://www.telephonics.com/product/aps-143cv3-oceaneye

Long-range maritime search and air-surveillance modes with fully integrated IFF interrogator provide target detections out to 200 NM

Given our Low AEW/ AWACS fleet, I guess the IAF/IN/IA use the P8I fleet to aerial threat detection also.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 16 Nov 2020 19:24

It may have modes for aerial surveillance but it doesn't translate to AEW capability that would allow for airborne EW and battle management - the roles which an AEW is expected to perform. The capability is better looked at in terms of how it helps the P-8 perform the roles that it is supposed to perform in the maritime and littoral environment though the combination of some basic surveillance capability and the ability to EW and other sensors will surely have some land applications. Specifically for littoral and land based applications, the USN uses the AN/APS-154 (AAS). With AAS you begin to diverge from the MPA needs and begin to add dedicated non maritime missions on the platform.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Nov 2020 19:32

Per my understanding we've used the P8I in an airborne picket/air surveillance role over land as well.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Nov 2020 20:52

A titbit in a report on a defsite,that the 29Ks will serve us until 2034,from when they will be replaced - as of now by the TEDBF/ LCA- MK-2. I can't fathom why14 yrs. from now we want to operate 4th. gen. fighters when 5th-gen birds will be looking over their shoulder at 6th. gen. arrivals and stealth UCAVs.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 16 Nov 2020 20:58

Philip wrote:A titbit in a report on a defsite,that the 29Ks will serve us until 2034,from when they will be replaced - as of now by the TEDBF/ LCA- MK-2. I can't fathom why14 yrs. from now we want to operate 4th. gen. fighters when 5th-gen birds will be looking over their shoulder at 6th. gen. arrivals and stealth UCAVs.

Lot to unpack here. First, there is just one 5th generation naval fighter in service. And it is not compatible with IN's carriers. A decade from now (unless China accelerates its fighter programs) it will still remain the only naval 5GFA in service. Secondly, there is no naval stealth UCAV currently in service. None are planned to be in service over the next decade either. So come 2030's, the vast majority of navies around the world will be flying advanced 4.5 generation fighters, some even 4th generation fighters. Even the USN will have 2-3 times (or more) more Super Hornets then F-35C's through the 2030's and even 2040s.

AkshaySG · Post by **AkshaySG** » 16 Nov 2020 23:44

Philip wrote:A titbit in a report on a defsite,that the 29Ks will serve us until 2034,from when they will be replaced - as of now by the TEDBF/ LCA- MK-2. I can't fathom why14 yrs. from now we want to operate 4th. gen. fighters when 5th-gen birds will be looking over their shoulder at 6th. gen. arrivals and stealth UCAVs.

??... The F-35 is the only 5th gen naval fighter currently flying and even that hasn't been operational on a single AC yet.. Its still undergoing trials. While China is still some time away from having 5th gen tech on its AC's. Naval Aviation with its complexities has always been half a generation if not more behind normal Air Force technology

Even the hyper-advanced US Navy will continue to use the Super Hornets till 2035 and well beyond because they understand that its still a extremely potent system and fulfills most of their requirements. Similarly the Mig - 29K even with its issues is still a good fit for the size and operational role of Indian AC's...

Besides India isn't getting a 3rd carrier anytime soon, So why waste money chasing another variety of fighter when you can take your time and build your own.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Nov 2020 01:06

14 yrs hence....to reinvent the wheel designed 2+ decades earlier! Isn't there a programme called AMCA? Which 14 years from now could be ready instead?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Nov 2020 01:18

Group Captain HVT Thakur (retd) Sir has already confirmed that no Naval AMCA is on the cards.

TEDBF fighter it is for the IN. Which "enemy" 5th gen plane are you referring to Philip?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 17 Nov 2020 05:53

Admiral Rakesh Sir.

Marshall Filipov thinks in a different dimension.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Nov 2020 20:44

Indeed

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Nov 2020 20:45

All P-8Is delivered to date have the term "ARK" on the tail. ARK stands for Arakkonam in Tamil Nadu, where the present fleet of eight P-8Is are based. This one has the term "DAB" on the tail. DAB stands for Dabolim, Goa where the next batch will be.

https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/13 ... 00129?s=20 ---> Indian Navy gets its ninth Boeing P-8I, below is the flight map of the delivery at INS Hansa along with the air frame. This unit will be part of a fleet dedicated to the western coast operating out of Goa.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Nov 2020 00:03

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/132 ... 51168?s=20 ---> MiG-29K...

* 3 drop tanks
* 2 Kh-35 anti-ship missiles
* 2 R-73 close combat missiles

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Nov 2020 00:11

https://twitter.com/ThingNavy/status/13 ... 45442?s=20 ---> MiG-29K engine replacement on board INS Vikramaditya.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Nov 2020 21:56

Click on link below to read the rest of the twitter thread...you will not be disappointed.

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 60192?s=20 ---> Gonna quote about an intercept of an IN Tu-142 by 2 USN F14s, by Commander VC Pandey (retd) near Gulf of Aden. "Auto pilot on, clear skies, handed over the stick of auto pilot to Lt S Ghei and tried to take a bit of rest...."

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Nov 2020 21:57

Exclusive preview: The Indian Navy and Coast Guard’s ALH ‘Dhruv’ Mk-III helicopters
https://verticalmag.com/news/indian-nav ... uv-mk-iii/
23 Nov 2020

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 25 Nov 2020 01:37

Rakesh wrote:Exclusive preview: The Indian Navy and Coast Guard’s ALH ‘Dhruv’ Mk-III helicopters
https://verticalmag.com/news/indian-nav ... uv-mk-iii/
23 Nov 2020

The fit and finish on this bird is gorgeous.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 25 Nov 2020 03:26

But only 6 nos of 16 Dhruv for IN is ASW version with dunking Sonar.
IN ASW helo fleet will be only 40 nos after retirement of Sea King by 2025.

24 MH60R + 10 upg Kamov 28 + 6 ASW Dhruv=40

The remaining 10 Dhruv for Coastal security will go on NOPV

In future I am expecting minimum 16 more ASW version of Dhruv by 2025 to take the fleet to 40 Dhruv with 22 ASW ,10 coastal surveillance and 8 utility versions.The total ASW helo fleet of IN to 56 nos.

CG fleet will be 28 Dhruvs with 9 more likely order according to the article.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 25 Nov 2020 06:57

Good to see Coast Guard Dhruv's. Hoping there would soon be an update also on the Coast Guard's plan to have 6 MRMP (Medium Range Maritime Patrol) aircraft's.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 25 Nov 2020 21:30

Admin Note: Let us keep the drone news in the Drone Thread. Otherwise, multiple discussions will occur - on the same topic - in various threads.