Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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chola
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by chola »

basant wrote:
chola wrote: Much of Air India's fleet as well as the rest of India's carriers is leased. Utilizing AI assets is not really worth pinning hopes on.
As per its list, it owns 87/172.
Ah, thanks for the info. I thought they leased a majority because I had read they were being chased by phoren leasing companies for missing payments.

But even the ones they own would be considered collateral for their debts no? Anyways seems very messy. I haven't seen any proposal on using AI assets for the IAF. There is probably a reason why.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by basant »

^^^
Agree, I don't think it is likely that AI's fleet would be used. More so as it is under sale.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by JTull »

We're talking about tons of modifications:
1. More power - would need
a. APU upgrades and
b. perhaps newer (military grade) engines too

2. Airframe structural modifications for
a. supporting the 360deg radome
b. radio antennas, EO ports, satcom, etc
c. stronger landing gear

3. Refueling probe and related internals

4. Almost a new cockpit

Unless there are other pre-qualified conversions existing, it will be 5 years before DRDO is able to receive such a modified aircraft. They're better off converting some future orders to the new requirements.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by kvraghav »

But isint there a Boeing 767 based AWACS? We can use the 787 from AI in that case since they are almost the same.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by arvin »

With Boeing tasting success with its 737 series as ASW, Airbus might want to push A320 series into some military role. This might be an opening for them.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

kvraghav wrote:But isint there a Boeing 767 based AWACS? We can use the 787 from AI in that case since they are almost the same.
While they may look similar they aren't the same given the 787's construction, and other sub-systems. By my guess it would be much easier to cut up a 767 than to modify and certify a 787 based platform. Even Boeing has never really seriously looked at modifying the 787 for military use so it is quite likely that working with that platform is probably significantly more expensive than the 767 or 737 Wide and narrowbodies. You also don't fly as much in a military scenario to offset the higher cost via fuel savings that a more efficient 787 will deliver over something like a 767.
arvin wrote:With Boeing tasting success with its 737 series as ASW, Airbus might want to push A320 series into some military role. This might be an opening for them.
Airbus already has an A320 based MPA being taken up by a multi-nation consortium though its timelines are so stretched out that the P-8 will likely end its production and deliveries by the time it becomes operational and it also appears that the French (who usually have stable and enduring requirements in European projects) don't want to go in that direction. There are/were no plans to also create an AEW variant of that design.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 65760?s=20 ---> India is going to make 6 new Airborne Early Warning and Control planes, to be developed by DRDO on aircraft from Air India. Under a ₹10,500 crore project, six AEW&C Block 2 aircraft would be acquired from Air India and modified to fly with a 360-degree panel radar.

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 86275?s=20 ---> The six AEW&C Block 2 planes would be highly capable than NETRA plane and provide 360-degree coverage deep inside the enemy territory during missions. The government is expected to clear the project soon.

Image

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/133 ... 69733?s=20 ---> Dome structure of CABS 360 degree AWACS radar panel.

Image
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by mmasand »

arvin wrote:With Boeing tasting success with its 737 series as ASW, Airbus might want to push A320 series into some military role. This might be an opening for them.
Airbus has been toying the A320neo M3 for sometime now. Remember when they pitched the A319 to IN for a maritime patrol role?

Here's a look at their potential platforms.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by AkshaySG »

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... content=23

ET also reporting this , Doesn't seem to specify which 6 aircraft would DRDO take from Air India , mentions that aircraft may get sent to Europe for some outfitting ,which could mean Airbus .
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

mmasand wrote:
arvin wrote:With Boeing tasting success with its 737 series as ASW, Airbus might want to push A320 series into some military role. This might be an opening for them.
Airbus has been toying the A320neo M3 for sometime now. Remember when they pitched the A319 to IN for a maritime patrol role?

Here's a look at their potential platforms.
It will be tricky to integrate that radar on a narrowbody. It will likely result in considerable degradation of range and performance (loiter). This was also why Boeing and Northrop used the top-hat configuration on the 737 AEW&C. For this particular project, the 767 or A330 look like more suitable candidates.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by gpurewal »

Question,

Why are second hand planes being used? Wouldn't it be better to acquire a new aircraft, since it will last longer, and probably have lower maintenance expenditures at the start?

I understand that there is a lower cost upfront to purchase used aircraft, but if one factors in maintenance and other operational costs for used aircraft, I think that purchasing a new aircraft would make more sense.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by hnair »

Does Air India have any A330s? IIRC, most got replaced by B787 and for short hauls by A320neo. If it is Neo, then it is not going to hold that large chapathi!
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by chola »

AkshaySG wrote:https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... content=23

ET also reporting this , Doesn't seem to specify which 6 aircraft would DRDO take from Air India , mentions that aircraft may get sent to Europe for some outfitting ,which could mean Airbus .
Holy crap! Just after I posted that AI aircraft seems unlikely with the financial issues involved I get this big egg on my face!

But I'm so happy! This is the first actual movement on the AWACS program.
hnair wrote:Does Air India have any A330s? IIRC, most got replaced by B787 and for short hauls by A320neo. If it is Neo, then it is not going to hold that large chapathi!
No A330s, according to the list that Basant ji posted in reply to my earlier question on AI. That's the mystery! It had always been the A330 in the AWACS/Tanker/MRTT discussion. Did we just pivoted to another aircraft type?
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

hnair wrote:Does Air India have any A330s? IIRC, most got replaced by B787 and for short hauls by A320neo. If it is Neo, then it is not going to hold that large chapathi!
The few A330's Air India had were leased. They are all gone now. The B777 is too big and the 787 too new (AI will want them even after it is sold) and even Boeing has no experience modifying them for AWACS (or any military) use. Using their older B737-800's (AI Express has them) would be the best option in my opinion. Cheaper to own and operate and easier to modify with a decent amount of internal space and endurance.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

The question is, does Airbus have an airframe analysis for loading of a radome? brar_w indicated an EU consortium for the A320, so that would be the logical route to save on time and cost. Other than that, the only two other options are Boeing with the 737 and E767.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

The airbus consortium is for a Maritime patrol aircraft, not an AWACS. The European (NATO) AWACS fleet was recently modernized and has a fair bit of life left before it needs retirement. Individual members are fragmented with the UK buying E-7's, and Italy buying smaller B. Jet based Israel AEW. So it doesn't appear that they'll ever self-fund an A-320 AEW conversion or structural analysis.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by krishna_krishna »

nachiket wrote:
hnair wrote:Does Air India have any A330s? IIRC, most got replaced by B787 and for short hauls by A320neo. If it is Neo, then it is not going to hold that large chapathi!
The few A330's Air India had were leased. They are all gone now. The B777 is too big and the 787 too new (AI will want them even after it is sold) and even Boeing has no experience modifying them for AWACS (or any military) use. Using their older B737-800's (AI Express has them) would be the best option in my opinion. Cheaper to own and operate and easier to modify with a decent amount of internal space and endurance.
From AI website they currently have only A321's and that's the one I believe would be going to France from the report.It would be A321's, the defunct Jet still has few A330s left. We should push to get those jets along with ATR's in their fleet use it for our Desi MPA/P8I indegenous, they also had ETR 145 in fleet not sure how many are left now.

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 77/photo/1
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by AkshaySG »

Something in the A321 family would be very good if possible , India is going to have thousands of them flying here soon with Indigo's mega orders and the likes of Vistara etc also lining up for the same . Never bad to have a lot of qualified maintainence workers , technicians around for airframe, engine etc issues ( even if the actual AEWA&C technology is complicated ) not to mention parts commonality .
the defunct Jet still has few A330s left. We should push to get those jets along with ATR's in their fleet use it for our Desi MPA/P8I indegenous, they also had ETR 145 in fleet not sure how many are left now
Jet is trying to come back in Summer 21 , They held on to most of their assets and slots so not sure how much they would give up for this scenario .
https://simpleflying.com/jet-airways-su ... c-flights/
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

brar_w wrote:The airbus consortium is for a Maritime patrol aircraft, not an AWACS. The European (NATO) AWACS fleet was recently modernized and has a fair bit of life left before it needs retirement. Individual members are fragmented with the UK buying E-7's, and Italy buying smaller B. Jet based Israel AEW. So it doesn't appear that they'll ever self-fund an A-320 AEW conversion or structural analysis.
If what you say is the case, then there is no reason for the IAF to look at the A-330 and go straight to the B-767. Radomes don't just add weight, but they also provide lift. For the 767, there is real world structural and aerodynamic analysis coming from Japan's JASDF 767-200ER delivered between 1999-2000. Boeing deliveries to India have been fast and ahead of schedule. Of any defense contractor for India, Boeing would only be second to domestic production.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

krishna_krishna wrote:
nachiket wrote: The few A330's Air India had were leased. They are all gone now. The B777 is too big and the 787 too new (AI will want them even after it is sold) and even Boeing has no experience modifying them for AWACS (or any military) use. Using their older B737-800's (AI Express has them) would be the best option in my opinion. Cheaper to own and operate and easier to modify with a decent amount of internal space and endurance.
From AI website they currently have only A321's and that's the one I believe would be going to France from the report.It would be A321's, the defunct Jet still has few A330s left. We should push to get those jets along with ATR's in their fleet use it for our Desi MPA/P8I indegenous, they also had ETR 145 in fleet not sure how many are left now.
That's why I mentioned AI Express. They have ~24 737-800's, though I am not sure if they are owned or leased. They also lost 2 of them in crashes, one in Mangalore (2010) and one earlier this year at Kozhikode. The A320/321 would also do if Airbus is confident of being able to modify them at a reasonable expense and in a reasonable amount of time.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Philip »

For xtra platforms for the desi AEW/ AWACS, the best options are either the upgraded and much improved IL-76s from earlier Uzbek built birds,for commonality with the 2 xtra Phalcons being acquired, or the IA civil aircraft ,which however will need much modification,structural strengthening for the rotordome,etc. Remember the sad event years ago of the crash of a modified AVRO for our desi AEW bird . The proposal to send it to the OEM for modification spares us the responsibility for getting the platforms modified,delivered on time and within budget too.
The A-320/21s are also larger than the EMBs,but smaller than the 4- engined IL-76 heavy transports. There was an earlier report that the IAF would prefer a twin-engined bird for easier maintenance. The A-320s are proven platforms for decades,would be a snitch to operate and support with so many flying in our skies. New A-330s are hugely expensive,3 times the cost of an IL-76 probably why the thought was shot down. If the acquisition of modified ex- IA A-320s is cost-effective, one can also explore modifying more IA surplus aircraft into tankers, LRMP, ELINT, and other possibilities, saving much moolah in the process.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

nachiket wrote:
krishna_krishna wrote:
From AI website they currently have only A321's and that's the one I believe would be going to France from the report.It would be A321's, the defunct Jet still has few A330s left. We should push to get those jets along with ATR's in their fleet use it for our Desi MPA/P8I indegenous, they also had ETR 145 in fleet not sure how many are left now.
That's why I mentioned AI Express. They have ~24 737-800's, though I am not sure if they are owned or leased. They also lost 2 of them in crashes, one in Mangalore (2010) and one earlier this year at Kozhikode. The A320/321 would also do if Airbus is confident of being able to modify them at a reasonable expense and in a reasonable amount of time.
I wonder if the radar and overall layout would need modification. Though I doubt any one has done any serious design and aerodynamic study on the A-320 or 737 but one would have to think that this radome and overall layout and weight is going to cause some pretty serious drag and performance degradation on both of these narrowbodies.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by kvraghav »

The only nearest thing that can hold that chapati is B787 in the AI fleet, it being a wide body and very close to B767 in dimensions and weight load.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Design and modifications around the 787 will be extremely expensive to do. The major cost isn't going to be the platforms but the integration, the radar and mission systems. And the gains would be minimal. Much cheaper to just buy second hand or new 767's and go with that, or used A-330's in case Airbus has some preliminary work performed and offers a good deal on integration and testing.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

brar_w wrote: I wonder if the radar and overall layout would need modification. Though I doubt any one has done any serious design and aerodynamic study on the A-320 or 737 but one would have to think that this radome and overall layout and weight is going to cause some pretty serious drag and performance degradation on both of these narrowbodies.
Need not be the IL-76 like chapati. The Netra-like bar design can be looked into, or the E-7 Wedgetail config.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

My understanding was that the balance beam configuration of the Netra was abandoned and that a chapati was the design that they were working on for the indigenous AWACS. I don't think there has been any indication that it is going to be abandoned now in favor of yet another balance beam or top-hat configuration like what Northrop Grumman did on the E-7 (which was extremely risky but they determined that it was the only viable path to getting a radar fitted on the 737 that met Australia's requirements). Is there any indication that they intend on going back on the radar design and configuration itself?
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

^^^It depends on what the mission is. For the UK and Australia, they simply aren't involved in large scale battle management with lots of different aircraft. The RAF and RN combined have limited fixed wing combat aircraft, and they operate in an integrated environment with allies while sitting on the shoulders of USAF.

For the IAF, it has to fight its battles alone. A higher gain antenna, at different wavelengths, with accurate beamforming is critical and will make the difference between life and death. It is not clear that the E-7 type of balanced beam antenna will fulfill the needs of the IAF. With IAF's experience already on the EL/W-2090 airborne radar, the IAF needs a radome configuration which has 3 full panels.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

The E-7 uses an integrated top hat configuration and not a balance beam. The antenna design was dictated in some part by the platform. They wanted to create a new class of of AEW that sits in between the widebodies and and small business jets yet had the persistance and crew to perform long duration missions (which they've demonstrated amply in operational scenarios) which was what the business jets lacked. A larger, higher drag and weight antenna would warrant a larger platform. Which was my whole point in the previous post IN THAT it is going to be extremely challenging to mount the larger chappati on a narrowbody without some severe degradation in aircraft performance. This is has never been attempted before so is an additional layer of complexity if one goes with a radar and architecture originally designed with the A-330 in mind and then tries to make it work on an A-320 or 737. That'll be a very high risk proposal.
For the UK and Australia, they simply aren't involved in large scale battle management with lots of different aircraft.
Britain is moving from the E-3 which is what the role it had performed within NATO and broader coalitions i.e. battle management at distance range and coordinating a large coalition of diverse aircraft. Australia likewise has been doing those sort of missions in its initial deployments with its aircraft. The narrobody will get you into that sweetspot and that 80% solution but that requires some design changes and trades to optimize for that platfrom. Had Northrop Grumman or Boeing tried to mount the E-3 or E-767 radar and mission system on the 737 they would have failed miserably. Platfrom limitations and other requirements ultimately dictate sensor and command and control mission system margin. If you go down a path of a 737 or A320 you have to design everything to fit that.

Short of a wholesale transplant of an existing smaller jet radar (like the E-2's, Netra's, or Globaleye's) the tophat configuration is probably the best approach/outcome one can hope for within the size, weight and drag margins of a 737 or A320 unless one compromises on other performance requirements. If a last minute decision is made to go for A320 or 737, I suspect that the radar and other design elements will need to be re-worked in light of these smaller margins, tolerances and other performance degradations on account of drag, weight etc. It is probably not worth the extra effort and self-imposed risk. Better to go for 767 or A-330 as was originally planned. Alternatively, if financial limitations continue to persist, mount the Netra radar and suite on a new platform that has more endurance. That will get tails in the hands of the IAF faster. But trying to squeeze a radar and mission suite originally envisioned for a widebody into a narrowbody entails considerable risk and could potentially bog the project down once they get into the thick of platform integration.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by putnanja »

krishna_krishna wrote:
nachiket wrote: The few A330's Air India had were leased. They are all gone now. The B777 is too big and the 787 too new (AI will want them even after it is sold) and even Boeing has no experience modifying them for AWACS (or any military) use. Using their older B737-800's (AI Express has them) would be the best option in my opinion. Cheaper to own and operate and easier to modify with a decent amount of internal space and endurance.
From AI website they currently have only A321's and that's the one I believe would be going to France from the report.It would be A321's, the defunct Jet still has few A330s left. We should push to get those jets along with ATR's in their fleet use it for our Desi MPA/P8I indegenous, they also had ETR 145 in fleet not sure how many are left now.

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 77/photo/1
I think you are right. ToI is reporting its A321s that will be picked up by IAF. Only question is, has anyone ever done modification for AEWCs on A320/321 family before? Would have been better with boeing 737s as it already has been modified earlier.

India plans major indigenous project for six powerful 'eyes in the sky' AWACS
...
Under the new project, DRDO will acquire six smaller A-320 variants from the existing Air India fleet, get the airframes modified, and then mount the radars on them.

“This project for six AWACS or advanced AEW&C (airborne early-warning and control) aircraft will be much more cost-effective than the earlier one of acquiring two new A-330s from the European multi-national company. DRDO has promised to deliver the six AWACS in a four-to-seven year timeframe,” said a source.
...
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by chola »

^^^ Great news. Sounds like DRDO has done due diligence and will set up the chapati on the A-321s after comparing against the A-330s. Most likely without the dual tanker role. Perhaps the chapati had been changed too to fit a plane half the size. (Bad thought: I hope we are not installing the balance beam system from the Embraer AEW&C which is not 360.)
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by sankum »

Instead of 10 m chapati a 7-8m chapati with triangular aesa antenna array should be possible or 7 m rotodome with single aesa array like in C295 aew 5 m dia elta radar rotodome .
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

787 will not be used, that is fundamentally the only worth while jet to travel in AI.

If they go with A321, I don't know how they will manage with the radar. Unless LRDE/CABS decides to go with a smaller radar, but with L band, like the Wedgetail.

With 321, if S band, we will not get the brute power, nor the capability. Not to mention the on station time, if there is no IFR.

777 is big, more expensive, but better. DRDO should have eyed those jet airways A330 or get it from open market. There must be 100's of A330 lying grounded due to the China virus..
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

sankum wrote:Instead of 10 m chapati a 7-8m chapati with triangular aesa antenna array should be possible or 7 m rotodome with single aesa array like in C295 aew 5 m dia elta radar rotodome .
DRDO went with 4 panel, because it gives superior performance than 3 panel radar. Ofcourse US might have signal processing algo, to overcome such drawbacks, however we are not there yet.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

DRDO Cleared To Convert 6 Air India A320s Into IAF AEW Jets - LIVEFIST
Six Airbus A320 airliners operated by India’s national carrier Air India will be modified, integrated with sensors and delivered to the Indian Air Force as new airborne early warning & control (AEW&C) aircraft. The Ministry of Defence today cleared a Rs 10,500 crore program in which India’s Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) will integrate radars and sensor on six Airbus A320 commercial airliners from national carrier Air India’s current fleet. The six aircraft are to sent to France, where they will be refurbished and modified to Indian Air Force/DRDO specifications.

If plans remain on track, the six aircraft will join the IAF to add AEW muscle to the pair of Embraer-DRDO AEW&C Netra jets in service and three older PHALCON AWACS jets. It is not clear if this new move, revealed in the Indian press on Wednesday, supplants earlier plans by the DRDO to deliver an Airbus A330 based AWACS system — though the two systems are significantly different in capability and scope.
Last edited by Kakarat on 17 Dec 2020 16:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Great news, only question 1) when will the contract happen and 2 when can they be inducted
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

It is only DAC approval. I have forgotten the number of times AWACS has received DAC approval. It is the most approved buy, which is never bought.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

DRDO claims that most of avionics for the AWACS are ready, they only need a platform for integration. Yet preparing a platform, let alone modifying a civilian airliner for this purpose is going to be a long, difficult process.
Even if Airbus/Boeing agrees to the proposal today, I expect atleast 6-7 years before 1st AWACS is inducted. That too if IAF doesn't shift the goalposts or DRDO is not overselling like they usually do.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Excellent news!! Most appropriate platform!! Glad the A330 idea is dropped (hopefully) god speed and good hunting... these will make for good 11-14 hour missions with 8/9 extra fuel tanks in cargo bay..
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

jamwal wrote:DRDO claims that most of avionics for the AWACS are ready, they only need a platform for integration. Yet preparing a platform, let alone modifying a civilian airliner for this purpose is going to be a long, difficult process.
Even if Airbus/Boeing agrees to the proposal today, I expect atleast 6-7 years before 1st AWACS is inducted. That too if IAF doesn't shift the goalposts or DRDO is not overselling like they usually do.

I think 1 1/2 to 2 years for the first platform from flying to France is appropriate timeline. It won’t be our first rodeo.. most likely the Netra config.. which is plenty good! Will be able to take a larger balance beam.. the 160-180 degree coverage for our situation when flying over sanitized home territory under eyes of ground based radars solves our problem of peeking deep into enemy territory.. we can always retrofit a nose tail radar later for more complete coverage.. chappati is only one way for 360 coverage..


360 is not required the way we plan to use these.. deepest looking radar that can pick up stealthy platforms solves 90% of our problems. Rest is all nice to have!!
jamwal
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

There's a bit more to it than just putting a radar on top. Take a look at the reason behind crash of Airavat. Just a minor design quirk which led to loss of control, that too after a number of successful test flights. Additionally, there will be new wiring, uprated power sources, completed redesign of interiors and installation of very heavy equipment. All of it takes time.
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