Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

[fanne]

[quote="Vips"]Rs 48,000 crore landmark deal: India clears purchase of 83 Tejas jets for IAF.

The indigenous content of LCA-Tejas is 50% in Mk1A variant which will be enhanced to 60%,” he added.

The indigenous content of 50% is by market value. By major part counts 70-75% of Tejas is indigenous. Of the major imported parts engine and radar both are roughly 15% each of the imported content (radar slightly more). With Uttam, we will increase the indigenous content further. The biggest teach yet unrealized is the engine.

Congrats everyone for this milestone. Let's see if F404 will face rough weather (there are always alternatives).

[m_saini]

https://twitter.com/narendramodi/status ... 36992?s=20

Don't think it can get anymore official than this. Such a proud moment!

[Vips]

For those wondering why 36 months: What was the delivery time for first Rafale delivery? From an existing assembly line, same plane, same part manufacturers, only some "India specific changes".

Saar Rafale Assembly line was busy and had back order's from Egypt, Qatar and French Air Force to clear before India's turn.

[Shameek]

Excellent news! Proud moment for all of us. From the days of staring at the first Tejas on the ADA calendar to this day!

[Philip]

The order should be progressively increased to at least 120+ 1As.The first 40 are vanilla birds with lesser capability and must be replaced or upgraded asap. At least 200 SE Tejas are reqd. to replace the variety of MIGs retd.,not forgetting the 120 Bisons also flying into the sunset during this decade. At least 3 lines are reqd. so that the aircraft is built at speed enabling tthe AMCA,Mk-2 to also start production during this decade.

[Vips]

...
If the First aircarft delivery is in 2024 then there is no way that HAL is going to supply 83 aircrafts by 2026-27 which was the timeline. HAL will complete delivery only in 2029 (that is the earliest) meaning that the Tekas MK2 - AWF will roll out only in 2029-30

https://www.aeromag.in/Magazines/9848624845.pdf
Page 61

...

According to HAL, the first Tejas Mk.1A will fly by 2022 with serial production starting in 2023. The first squadron of Tejas Mk 1A will be delivered by 2025 and delivery of all 83 aircraft is to be completed before 2029.

...

Regarding Mk2, it will have its own timelines when that is ready and ordered. It won’t be linearly tied to Mk1A delivery schedule.

I was right about the delivery timelines stretching to 2029. The assembling of MK2 is indeed tied to how fast Tejas MK1A is delivered to the IAF as HAL cannot just go on creating new facilities for newer aircrafts. Setting up a new Production line for just 8 aircrafts a year costs 1500 Crores.

[Philip]

The order should be progressively increased to at least 120+ 1As.The first 40 are vanilla birds with lesser capability and must be replaced or upgraded asap. At least 200 SE Tejas are reqd. to replace the variety of MIGs retd.,not forgetting the 120 Bisons also flying into the sunset during this decade. At least 3 lines are reqd. so that the aircraft is built at speed enabling tthe AMCA,Mk-2 to also start production during this decade.We must remember that the MKI upgrades are essential where at least 200 birds need to be upgraded to SS std.

[sankum]

The Tejas mk1a is planned at 16/year production till 2029.
Tejas mk2 is planned from 2026 @24/ year for total production of 40 fighters per year in 2026-29 period. Parallel production lines. Will not wait for one to end and if Tejas LIFT is ordered Tejas mk1 production line will be active till 2032 while Tejas mk2 line will be active till 2035.

[Vips]

Till date there has been no news of production capacity of more then 20 aircrafts/year. Capacity of 20 is spread across 3 Production lines (8 at the HAL facility in Bangalore, 8 at the new one set up in Nashik and 4 at the erstwhile Kiran Hangar).

I was hopeful of a assembly line with a Pvt Sector player but news report has already come in that there is "lack of interest".

[sankum]

Then other option is to enhance Tejas mk1a production to @20/year or more and complete the delivery by 2026 and then shift to Tejas mk2 @24/year. This may be the final aim.

[sankum]

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 61858?s=20 ---> IAF's No. 10 Sqn 'Daggers' & No. 29 Sqn 'Scorpions' among the top prospects for becoming the first two Tejas Mk1-A fighter squadrons.

[Santosh]

Congratulations to all folks who have kept the faith and fought mis-information wars. We have persevered and there is no looking back.

[Yagnasri]

If any order for 170 Mk2s are given I am sure they will ramp up the production rates. One can also be sure that there will be further orders or even additional orders other than this 170 one the Mk2 start flying and AMCA gets delayed.

[Nihat]

Huge huge day for Tejas and hopefully the first of many to come.

What a long journey it feels like, right from tracking the daily test flights on the Ada website almost a decade back to this day.

Many congratulations to the scientists and even to the BRFites who kept the faith all these years.

Onwards and upwards now.

[srai]

...

The assembling of MK2 is indeed tied to how fast Tejas MK1A is delivered to the IAF as HAL cannot just go on creating new facilities for newer aircrafts. Setting up a new Production line for just 8 aircrafts a year costs 1500 Crores.

So you are implying AMCA (or TEDBF) would need to wait for MWF production to complete before it can be made?

They two are different products. Requires different lines to be setup.

[Haridas]

An article by Ajay Shukla.

https://www.ajaishukla.com/2021/01/cabi ... tejas.html

The sanction of Rs 1,202 crore is for the IAF to develop repair and servicing infrastructure at their base depots “so that the turnaround time would get reduced for mission critical systems and would lead to increased availability of aircraft for operational exploitation,” said the MoD.

Many missed the significance of this. Nitty gritty that matters a lot.

[AkshaySG]

I was right about the delivery timelines stretching to 2029. The assembling of MK2 is indeed tied to how fast Tejas MK1A is delivered to the IAF as HAL cannot just go on creating new facilities for newer aircrafts. Setting up a new Production line for just 8 aircrafts a year costs 1500 Crores.

Honestly 1500 crores is a worthwhile expenditure considering just how many planes and platforms HAL will be churning out by mid-late 20's

We're talking about a 48,000 crore deal for Mk1 probably double that for Mk2 and AMCA and possibly similar amounts of TEDBF so an extra 1.5-2k crores is definitely worth the money if it increases yearly production from say 16 to 24 or from 24 to 36

[venkat_r]

Very big day for Indian Aviation , very happy to see this in our lifetime and dream come true for many - kudos for all the people who made this happen.

[Haridas]

An article by Ajay Shukla.

https://www.ajaishukla.com/2021/01/cabi ... tejas.html
The sanction of Rs 1,202 crore is for the IAF to develop repair and servicing infrastructure at their base depots “so that the turnaround time would get reduced for mission critical systems and would lead to increased availability of aircraft for operational exploitation,” said the MoD.

mercy of Ishwara

[Haridas]

BRF is fortunate to have these gentlemen. Thank you guys for everything.

And many registered and unregistered members who got it here.

This Mk1A order ends the combat fighter planes import business.
Future is all Indian aviation.
Some sub-systems could be imported and co-developed.

Mk1A final delivery 2027
Mk2 Delivery start from 2027 thru 2034
AMCA 2034 on ward
Future I will be too old!
For you guys to carry the torch.

Iss desh ko meray bacchon rakhnaa sambhal kay ...

All future will be PGM bombs. No more dumb sh*t bombs.

[Haridas]

Ajai Shukla wrote:

The negotiated price amounts to about Rs 550 crore per Tejas Mark 1A fighter, which is significantly higher than the Rs 430 crore cost of each Sukhoi-30MKI that HAL builds.

The reasons for this high cost is the four major improvements the IAF has demanded over the current Tejas Mark 1 version. The most challenging involves equipping the Mark 1A fighter with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, in place of the current manually scanned Israeli Elta EL/M 2032 radar. .

Defence expert, master of IAF technology, ex-Army Major Sooklaw, defense journalist :: "manually scanned" !

[Haridas]

Excellent news! Proud moment for all of us. From the days of staring at the first Tejas on the ADA calendar to this day!

In fact from the days of oogling at the first flight video that Shiv shot & uploaded.

[Karan M]

Even Shukla is making the classic mistake of taking the procurement cost, dividing by 83 and assuming its airframe cost. Expert indeed. Quality of his articles is on a constant decline.

[Neela]

We were all resigned to AI21 or even later.
Need some balance after a heady 2 days.

$10 billion please for engine development and infrastructure.
$50 billion for Semiconductor and Electronics

Loosen those purse strings will you GoI...hexapetagiga billions on Forex reserves sounds all great but the money has to work for us long term.

Ya ya...I know this post will be gone.

[mody]

That IS the agenda. Sadly, its the IAF playing truant. Complaining about depleting squadrons on the one hand, while restricting Tejas orders, setting up the stage for their MRCA - a toy that they were once promised. A whip needs to be cracked.

If that were the case then why is the IAF now making pronouncements on acquiring over 170 MWFs? The ball is in ADA and HAL's court, to deliver on time and without perennial schedule slides. Just look at No.18 Squadron- it was re activated and almost 10 months later, they have just 1 Tejas Mk1 FOC fighter handed over to them. Would you blame the IAF for this?

If they can meet their targets and the MWF meets the IAF's requirements, the IAF will more than gladly acquire it while still taking deliveries of Tejas Mk1As.

The MiG-27 squadrons that have gone have been replaced (even if not one on one) by Su-30MKI squadrons that have been added. Then there's the 2 Rafale squadrons as well.

Kartik, the Tejas-MK2 or MWF is slated to replace the Jaguar, Mig-29 and M2K in IAF service. Mostly in that order too. Even for that 9 squadrons are not going to be enough.
Tejas MK1A should be replacing all 6 squadrons of Mig-21 Bison. Yet the order is for only 4 squadrons.
A shortfall is going to remain and IAF is going to demand for 4-6 squadrons of import/Local assembly to bridge the gap.
If the Tejas MK1A numbers are increased by 36-37 single seat aicrafts and production increased to 24 per year from 2025 onwards, then we can buy another 36 Rafael from France and close the MMRCA show. With HAL Nashik facility also being re-oriented for Tejas assembly, 24 per year from 2025-26 onwards is possible. The timeline for the MK1A production run will remain the same and we will get an additional 2 squadrons, plus at a reduced per aircraft cost (speculation).

Is the Elta 2052 radar confirmed for the 73 MK1A aircrafts? Has the order been placed or is there some chance that Uttam may be considered?
Some reports have also indicated ASRAM likely replace the R-73E on the MK1A. Is this being pursued or the Astra-IR will replace the R-73E?

The engine development has still remained but the immediate goal should be to have a fully indigenous avionics and EW suite and indigenous weapons suite.
With Uttam AESA, an indigenous EW suite and indigenous SDR only the Helmet would be imported from the avionics and EW suites. With Astra MK1, Astra MK2, Astra IR, RudraM1, Garuda/Garuthma/PGHSLD the weapons suite will largely be indigenous. Only the LGBs will be Griffin-III. The icing on the cake will be the air launched Brahmos-NG.

[Haridas]

We were all resigned to AI21 or even later.
Need some balance after a heady 2 days.

$10 billion please for engine development and infrastructure.
$50 billion for Semiconductor and Electronics

Loosen those purse strings will you GoI...hexapetagiga billions on Forex reserves sounds all great but the money has to work for us long term.

Ya ya...I know this post will be gone.

Economics 101: foreign exchange reserve is not same as money in hand to spend.

China virus has made money very tight.
China in Laddhak is also drawing funds.

So get real & tighten belt.
and don't sleep at work that result in such wet dreams.

[Vidur]

Wish all a very auspicous and shubh Makar Sankranti, Pongal, Bihu. A belated Lohri as well.

LCA Mk1A CCS sanction was truly a great gift to nation. It is very important for a number of reasons that all are aware of. Remembering Manohar Parikkar ji today.

I would make the following points today

1. Be cautious about timelines on production and induction given the production agency track record. 2030/31 is a more realistic date for order fulfilment
2. MWF/MK2 will take even longer given airframe improvements, new a/c testing and unseen hurdles. I would be pleasantly surprised if production starts by 2032
3. Costs - we need to introspect honestly on costs and ask ourselves difficult questions on cost quoted by HAL, discussions on that and final price agreed. Won't say more here but worth pointing out that Tejas R&D effort comes under DRDO head of Defence Budget so Tejas Dev costs are already accounted for over 30 years

[rrao]

People blame HAL for tardiness, not sticking to delivery schedules etc.. but none tries to rectify the procurement problems ...The procedures are so long as Lord Hanuman's tail, each procurement file has to pass through several hands, departments, divisions and corporate office depending upon the value... There is nothing like debit card and credit card procurement in HAL unlike private sectors.

[hemant_sai]

3. Costs - we need to introspect honestly on costs and ask ourselves difficult questions on cost quoted by HAL, discussions on that and final price agreed. Won't say more here but worth pointing out that Tejas R&D effort comes under DRDO head of Defence Budget so Tejas Dev costs are already accounted for over 30 years

So there is still last chance for anti Tejas lobby to scuttle contract signing. This time they just need to put an allegation of corruption on HAL. Ask the court to put the stay on contract signing till the resolution of case.
And this is very much possible in India.

Edited ramana.
Don't shoot the messenger for your pessimism.
You are combining different fears to post this nonsense.

Wakeup and see the progress.

[Rishi_Tri]

Press Information Bureau .. release >>

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=1688287

*****
Cabinet approves Procurement of 83 Light Combat Aircrafts (LCA) ‘Tejas’ from HAL for IAF

Posted On: 13 JAN 2021 5:25PM by PIB Delhi

The Cabinet met under the Chairmanship of Prime Minister in New Delhi on 13 January and has approved procurement of 73 LCA Tejas Mk-1A fighter aircrafts and 10 LCA Tejas Mk-1 Trainer aircrafts at the cost of Rs. 45,696 Crore along with Design and Development of Infrastructure sanctions worth Rs.1,202 Crore.

Light Combat Aircraft Mk-1A variant is an indigenously designed, developed and manufactured state-of-the-art modern 4+ generation fighter aircraft. This aircraft is equipped with critical operational capabilities of Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missile, Electronic Warfare (EW) Suite and Air to Air Refuelling (AAR) would be a potent platform to meet the operational requirements of Indian Air Force, IAF. It is the first “Buy (Indian-Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured)” category procurement of combat aircrafts with an indigenous content of 50% which will progressively reach 60% by the end of the programme.

The Cabinet has also approved infrastructure development by IAF under the project to enable them handle repairs or servicing at their base depot so that the turnaround time would get reduced for mission critical systems and would lead to increased availability of aircraft for operational exploitation. This would enable IAF to sustain the fleet more efficiently and effectively due to availability of repair infrastructure at respective bases.

Under the Atmanirbhar Bharat Abhiyaan, India is continuously growing in its power to indigenously design, develop and manufacture advanced cutting edge technologies and systems in the Defence Sector. The manufacturing of Light Combat Aircraft by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, HAL will give a further push to Atmanirbhar Bharat initiative and boost indigenisation of defence production and the defence industry in the country. About 500 Indian companies including MSMEs in the design and manufacturing sectors will be working with HAL in this procurement. The programme would act as a catalyst for transforming the Indian aerospace manufacturing ecosystem into a vibrant Atmanirbhar-self-sustaining ecosystem.

*****

[Rishi_Tri]

Almost 30 years of hard work culminates in 46,000 crore order for Tejas. Words are not enough to convey gratitude to everyone who toiled till the end was achieved.

PM Modi has been huge supporter of Tejas program. He has mentioned it in almost every Independence Day speech, election rallies over the last few years. So he shall be as proud as all of us are.

Now its time for Tejas to Fly Over Rajpath on 26th Jan.

Given that the approval came on Lohri / Sankranti, the force is with the program. ..

On second thoughts, I do recall one poem that may capture what everyone associated with the program may feel like:

वीर तुम बढ़े चलो! धीर तुम बढ़े चलो!

हाथ में ध्वजा रहे बाल दल सजा रहे
ध्वज कभी झुके नहीं दल कभी रुके नहीं
वीर तुम बढ़े चलो! धीर तुम बढ़े चलो!

सामने पहाड़ हो सिंह की दहाड़ हो
तुम निडर डरो नहीं तुम निडर डटो वहीं
वीर तुम बढ़े चलो! धीर तुम बढ़े चलो!

प्रात हो कि रात हो संग हो न साथ हो
सूर्य से बढ़े चलो चन्द्र से बढ़े चलो
वीर तुम बढ़े चलो! धीर तुम बढ़े चलो!

एक ध्वज लिये हुए एक प्रण किये हुए
मातृ भूमि के लिये पितृ भूमि के लिये
वीर तुम बढ़े चलो! धीर तुम बढ़े चलो!

अन्न भूमि में भरा वारि भूमि में भरा
यत्न कर निकाल लो रत्न भर निकाल लो
वीर तुम बढ़े चलो! धीर तुम बढ़े चलो!

- द्वारिका प्रसाद माहेश्वरी

[Ashutosh Malik]

Vidur - who is "we" in your post below? If GOI, HAL etc have negotiated a certain figure, what else are "we" supposed to do?

What is with this merry-go-round in the conversation, particularly point 3? GOI and HAL have come to a figure. What are the citizens supposed to do now? Go to the Supreme Court and protest, the high prices/ low prices/ something else?

Having seen your earlier posts, it seems you are with the Government. If you are a part of the decision making chain in GOI on this issue, I am sure you would have put in your thoughts before the decision was taken. If not considered, end of the matter. Move on. If not, then what is the locus standi to question what has been decided? Even if one doesn't concern with the locus standi, what is it that a citizen is supposed to do when among both the entities one is the Government, and other is a Government owned enterprise. So as a tax payer, what next? Get this decision cancelled?

Best regards.

.....

I would make the following points today

1. Be cautious about timelines on production and induction given the production agency track record. 2030/31 is a more realistic date for order fulfilment
2. MWF/MK2 will take even longer given airframe improvements, new a/c testing and unseen hurdles. I would be pleasantly surprised if production starts by 2032
3. Costs - we need to introspect honestly on costs and ask ourselves difficult questions on cost quoted by HAL, discussions on that and final price agreed. Won't say more here but worth pointing out that Tejas R&D effort comes under DRDO head of Defence Budget so Tejas Dev costs are already accounted for over 30 years

[Aditya_V]

Ajai Shula has failed maths, the last CCS cleareance for 12 Su 30 MKI was 10880 crore, how does that come 430 crore, I know that's not the way without seeing what's included but many of his articles are clear trolling, should we treat his articles like deaf and dumb

[Vidur]

Wish all a very auspicous and shubh Makar Sankranti, Pongal, Bihu. A belated Lohri as well.

LCA Mk1A CCS sanction was truly a great gift to nation. It is very important for a number of reasons that all are aware of. Remembering Manohar Parikkar ji today.

I would make the following points today

1. Be cautious about timelines on production and induction given the production agency track record. 2030/31 is a more realistic date for order fulfilment
2. MWF/MK2 will take even longer given airframe improvements, new a/c testing and unseen hurdles. I would be pleasantly surprised if production starts by 2032
3. Costs - we need to introspect honestly on costs and ask ourselves difficult questions on cost quoted by HAL, discussions on that and final price agreed. Won't say more here but worth pointing out that Tejas R&D effort comes under DRDO head of Defence Budget so Tejas Dev costs are already accounted for over 30 years

Some have completely misunderstood my comments. Point 3 is for analysis of DPSU costs in general using this program as an example. Not by any means a comment oN changes in current deal !! Its has CCS sanction after due process !!

Look at comment as analysts for the purpose of understanding how we can increase operating efficiencies in DPSUs to ensure that our defence budget Re goes a longer way.

Reiterate that current deal is not under question in any way shape or form. It has happened after full due process and is right for the nation.

Best wishes to all

Ps - mods may delete the post if they think people will misunderstand it.

[Najunamar]

I think between GOI affiliated entities or even private entities within India, if the price tags are a bit off that does not imply a net negative for the broader goal of improving the indigenous MIC. However, Vidurji I think your concern is for future big(ger) acquisitions that may induce sticker shock and reduce the appetite for MII? As long as money stays mostly in India I am less concerned with the actual figures as long as it doesn't provide ammo for an activist CAG or some such agency to thrown in a monkey wrench.

[jamwal]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1349703545231065091 ---> The actual unit cost of the Tejas Mk-1A is just north of Rs 300 crores, if you strip away ancillary allocations related to infrastructure etc. I will write a detailed piece as promised.

Sad to say but Ajai Shukla is posting stuff copied straight from posts of Paki trolls. Claiming 550 crore for Tejas and 430 for Su-30. He is losing all credibility with every article and tweet he writes.

[darshan]

There's no price tag for a home made product.

If prices were that easy to put together for weapons then the whole negotiation would have been done in a day. Hopefully, general public utilizes such common sense.

[Rakesh]

Ps - mods may delete the post if they think people will misunderstand it.

No Need for that Sir. Your post will stay there, as is. Thank You.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/13 ... 36480?s=20 ---> Why Tejas Mk1A deal is a major boost for the domestic aviation sector - a pan India vendor list that will generate jobs and revenue over next seven years at the very least.

https://twitter.com/MohanCRaja/status/1 ... 90531?s=20 ---> Manu, who are the main foreign vendors in the project and from where?

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/13 ... 45888?s=20 ---> American GE engines, Israeli ELTA radar and BAE sensors.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1349703545231065091 ---> The actual unit cost of the Tejas Mk-1A is just north of Rs 300 crores, if you strip away ancillary allocations related to infrastructure etc. I will write a detailed piece as promised.

Sad to say but Ajai Shukla is posting stuff copied straight from posts of Paki trolls. Claiming 550 crore for Tejas and 430 for Su-30. He is losing all credibility with every article and tweet he writes.

These tweets from Saurav Jha are apt....

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/134 ... 51878?s=20 ---> *Dalalon*, jitna bhi ro lo, the construction and induction of 83 more Tejas units will be a reality.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/134 ... 42561?s=20 ---> I am sorry to say, but people need to think before they leap. Dividing Rs 45,696 crore by 83 and obtaining Rs 550 crore per unit, does not give you the *flyaway* costs of a Tejas Mk-1A. I'll write a detailed piece on this for the **** who go around pretending to be experts.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/134 ... 65091?s=20 ---> The actual unit cost of the Tejas Mk-1A is just north of Rs 300 crores, if you strip away ancillary allocations related to infrastructure etc. I will write a detailed piece as promised.