Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Jan 2021 08:28

For lighter MBT go with crew-less turrets. There will be a gradual move towards unmanned fighting vehicles with few manned command ones.

DRDO FMBT/NGMBT concepts

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Jan 2021 11:12

^^^

DRDO was showing such a concept of vehicle may be 5 years ago. We have no idea what happened to it.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 Jan 2021 12:58

Some news feed just showed up stating that the Zsu-23 has been upgraded, I looked at the list of upgrades and it seems everything except for the tracks, wheels, suspension, chassis has been changed. Great work, anyone has any idea which new engine is being used here ? Why cant we proliferate this design by licensing out the chassis ? Potentially, someone like L&T can try out as there is a great need for these platforms given swarm drones are a reality

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 25 Jan 2021 17:34

suryag wrote:Potentially, someone like L&T can try out as there is a great need for these platforms given swarm drones are a reality

The K30 Biho had outperformed ZSUs, and L&T already had a partnership with Koreans with the K-9 (Vajra) project. Unfortunately, it was one of the victims of the COVID-19 budget cuts.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Jan 2021 18:21

Drawings are great,concepts look good,but the engineering and manufacturing skills are required to create the same,plus ensuring where the key components starting from the engine, gun and varied ammo/ missiles,auto-loader,defensive suites, armour plating, combat system ,etc. are all coming from. Like Tejas, where even after 3 to 4 decades only 50% of the bird is desi, so too must we produce a true and tested sustainable weapon system that can be commissioned which initially may have a high % of firang eqpt. Secondly,the timeframe must be strictly adhered to to ensure tech. relevance once the system is finally accepted into service.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Feb 2021 23:37

https://twitter.com/Mave_Intel/status/1 ... 10305?s=20 ---> Deal for 118 Arjun Mk 2 tank worth Rs 8,956 crore soon.

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/135 ... 14438?s=20 ---> Deal for 118 Arjun Mk 1A soon, according to Times Now News. This deal is worth Rs 8,956 crore.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 05 Feb 2021 12:17

Nearly 76 crore per tank of this category with support and spares is not bad. If the local engine is used, then cost can be brought lower, I think. T-90 were cheap per unit but came without air-conditioning, poor armour and defective electronics.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 05 Feb 2021 22:17

Yup, @DRDO_India has signed a Licensing Agreement for Transfer of Technology of the Wheeled Armoured Platform (WhAP) (an 8x8 APC pictured below) with an Indian industry partner. This will see production.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/135 ... 49152?s=19

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 05 Feb 2021 22:23

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Mave_Intel/status/1 ... 10305?s=20 ---> Deal for 118 Arjun Mk 2 tank worth Rs 8,956 crore soon.

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/135 ... 14438?s=20 ---> Deal for 118 Arjun Mk 1A soon, according to Times Now News. This deal is worth Rs 8,956 crore.

rakesh ji is there any clarity on which stage of DPP will that be?

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 05 Feb 2021 22:59

Aero India: Not a fighter jet but infantry combat vehicle is showstopper

BENGALURU: It is not a fancy fighter jet that always catches visitors' attention in the Aero show. Rather, this time, an infantry combat vehicle has turned out to be a showstopper for Aero India, the Asia's biggest aerospace and defence exhibition.

It is only because a startup company Tonbo Imaging has come up with solution challenges thrown up during Defence India Startup Challenge under government's iDEX (Innovation for Defence Excellence) initiative.

The force stated that dust, smoke, fog, camouflage and even darkness used to hamper the vision of BMP-II Sarath on battlefields. Therefore, they placed the challenge before the startups.

The company took up the challenge and successfully integrated 360 panoramic degree view on the Indian Army's amphibious AFV, BMP-II Sarath. Before that it was not possible to do so in a BMP-II Sarath as only the 120 degree view was available which was mechanical.

Commander Rajendra Kumar from Tonbo Imaging said, "In 2018, the government has given us a task under iDEX and we were the first to complete the task."

He also said that they have started supplying advanced imaging and sensor systems for Rafale fighter jets aircraft.

The panoramic see-through armour system significantly improves the vehicle's all-round survivability and enhances the vehicle's capability to respond first and rapidly inflict damage, he said
The head-mounted display is a high-definition, mixed-reality eyepiece that displays images of the tank's surroundings in a holographic form as if superimposed to the insides of the tank, thereby enabling the 'see-through armour' capability.

It improves the crew's spatial awareness by integrating a magnetic tracker that senses the head movement of the wearer and displays video from the same direction. "The driver's HMD can interface with the GPS system to display location specific information for easier manoeuvring and situational assessment. The HMD also displays a wider coverage of targets tracked to the commander, for auto-threat analysis. This helps the commander to prioritise targets real-time and handover to Gunner or engage the target, based on urgency," he said.

Commander Rajendra Kumar said that they use micro-optics, lower power electronics and real-time vision that balances front end analog processing with sophisticated digital image processing to come up with low power imaging platforms across visible, mid-wave Infrared and long wave IR spectrums.

Land battles across the world now have an Indian content, a thermal imaging device, from Tonbo, used on tanks and infantry combat vehicles, has been supplied to 25 countries and is the only non-NATO supplier to the US Military.

Inviting comments from Karan M and other Gurus.

TIA

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 05 Feb 2021 23:04

Great if they order 118 Arjuns! Compared with the minimum size for imports this is quite low (I will leave it at that)!

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 05 Feb 2021 23:12

Vivek K wrote:Great if they order 118 Arjuns! Compared with the minimum size for imports this is quite low (I will leave it at that)!

I think there will be more orders after Mk2 is ready and approved.

They are ordering in lots of 118 units. Mk1, then Mk1A, then Mk2. IIRC the DRDO had asked for at least 500 units total order for the Arjun project to recover its development costs.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 05 Feb 2021 23:19

Nasama pochu. They supply to rafael. Not rafale.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Feb 2021 09:31

The report said that the Arjuns are most likely to be used in the desert sector, Rajasthan and Sindh,where the terrain suits them best. A follow-on order after tranche-1 would be inevitable as large numbers are reqd. for cost-effectiveness and support.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 06 Feb 2021 09:52

jamwal wrote:Nearly 76 crore per tank of this category with support and spares is not bad. If the local engine is used, then cost can be brought lower, I think. T-90 were cheap per unit but came without air-conditioning, poor armour and defective electronics.

Shaunak Agarkhedkar explains beautifully why its better to buy indigenous Arjun over tincan:

Manish_Sharma wrote:TWITTER:

@rahorekaran17:

A very interesting and readable economic analysis of the advantages of an indigenous wpn pgm as against an imported system. Here Shaunak Agarkhedkar compares the Arjun project and the T90.
These aspects are more often than not lost sight of.
https://t.co/EoQzjkpS6Q

The immense loss that is being inflicted on our MIC and on our indigenisation efforts by sidelining the MBT Arjun is reflected by Shaunak in economic terms. And as I have always maintained the Arjun way outclasses the T90.

Well done @shaunakSA. More power to bright lads and lasses like you!!!
https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... 72705?s=19
_____________________

https://shaunak.substack.com/p/domestic ... ce=twitter

Domestic Military-Industrial Complex - Part TwoMBT Arjun vs T-90MS - a case study

Shaunak Agarkhedkar

Last month I simulated the economic benefits of investing in domestic products as opposed to purchasing products from OEMs in other countries. Today I’ll tweak the simulation and do an apples-to-apples comparison between procuring the MBT Arjun Mk.1A vs the T-90MS. The assumptions will be on the conservative side; a worst-case scenario of sorts for the Arjun. For example, the simulation does not assume any economies of scale for the Arjun, but the economies are already baked into the T-90’s per unit cost.

The simulation is made even cooler by the fact that I’ve now written it in Python.

I am assuming that all T-90MS are imported, and the value added to them domestically is negligible. I am also neglecting the knock-on effects of domestic R&D associated with procurement of the Arjun (like subsystems that get utilised for upgrading other tanks with the Indian Army, etc.)

Domestic Military-Industrial Complex - Part TwoMBT Arjun vs T-90MS - a case study

Shaunak Agarkhedkar12 hr4

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Last month I simulated the economic benefits of investing in domestic products as opposed to purchasing products from OEMs in other countries. Today I’ll tweak the simulation and do an apples-to-apples comparison between procuring the MBT Arjun Mk.1A vs the T-90MS. The assumptions will be on the conservative side; a worst-case scenario of sorts for the Arjun. For example, the simulation does not assume any economies of scale for the Arjun, but the economies are already baked into the T-90’s per unit cost.

The simulation is made even cooler by the fact that I’ve now written it in Python.

I am assuming that all T-90MS are imported, and the value added to them domestically is negligible. I am also neglecting the knock-on effects of domestic R&D associated with procurement of the Arjun (like subsystems that get utilised for upgrading other tanks with the Indian Army, etc.).

Supplier levels

Like last time, only 3 levels of suppliers are considered, and they’re assumed to pay three kinds of taxes: corporate tax, GST (on components procured domestically), and income taxes paid on salaries of employees.

Taxes flowing back

The taxes flow into the following year’s central government budget, and are redirected to MBT procurement in proportion to the percentage of central government budget allocated to Defence. This is an additional nuance I’ve incorporated from last time. So if 24% of the central govt. budget goes to Defence, only 24% of the taxes collected from the domestic MIC involved in Arjun Mk.1A production is redirected to the following year’s Arjun procurement.

Budgetary excess

However, since we are procuring the same number of units for both tanks in any given year, and since the procurement budget grows organically as well as due to a proportion of the supply chain taxes flowing back, we end up with a situation where for each year we have an excess. This can be utilised to buttress or replace those bridges that were believed to be incapable of supporting the Arjun’s weight. Or it can be used to procure more Arjun Mk.1A tanks.

Such a scenario does not arise in case of the T-90MS tank.......

Note: Rest of article contains lots of Tables so not possible to post here, please go on link and read it there

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Feb 2021 10:22

We have been saying this in English for 20 years, such a simple economic principle does not need python!

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 06 Feb 2021 11:39

^^ an image speaks more than a thousand words... so from that article itself the summary -

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 06 Feb 2021 22:42

Twitter abuzz that Kalyani's M-4 is getting an order over Tata's Kestrel.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 07 Feb 2021 04:45

JTull wrote:Twitter abuzz that Kalyani's M-4 is getting an order over Tata's Kestrel.

How so? They are both in different segments aren't they? M4 is a MPV with applications mostly for COIN and patrolling whereas the Kestrel is a proper wheeled armoured personnel carrier.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Feb 2021 05:29

What are Kalyani's contributions to the M4?

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 07 Feb 2021 22:16

Assembling in collaboration with Paramount of South Africa and Liasoning with GOI/Defence Ministry for trials and subsequent orders.

John · Post by **John** » 07 Feb 2021 22:52

Paramount has Mbombe 8 which is in same class as Kestral may be that caused the confusion

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 08 Feb 2021 02:37

it is classified as a wheeled APC but looks like a cross between a Humvee and an APC .

here is a detailed article about it.

https://medium.com/the-innovation/the-k ... a5e6bb1c7e

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 08 Feb 2021 15:00

Whats the projected role and in what formations ?

Is it going to form a mixed group in a mech inf unit or be handed over to sharpen the teeth of the normal infantry units.
Its a definitely a specialised vehicle over a standard troop carrier so ... am trying to understand the final resting place of this vehicle.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Feb 2021 23:57

https://twitter.com/Mave_Intel/status/1 ... 35649?s=20 ---> Kalyani M-4. Orders Finally...

https://twitter.com/Mave_Intel/status/1 ... 55361?s=20 ---> From What I know it's around 200*

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Feb 2021 00:12

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 33889?s=20 ---> Found something very cool, if correct. Three experimental T-90S tanks on trials in India. Crews clean the barrels after firing. Summer 1999.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Feb 2021 00:13

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/135 ... 06882?s=20 ---> Ok, it is confirmed now that Arjun Mk.1A and WhAP is cleared for export.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 12 Feb 2021 18:29

After Tejas LCA, huge atmanirbhar push for Arjun tanks

Rs 6,600 cr order Order for 118 Arjun Mk1A tanks is expected to be signed.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/a ... 2021-02-12

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 12 Feb 2021 23:00

PM Modi to dedicate Arjun tank to the nation on Sunday, Army to get 118 latest tanks

Prime Minister Narendra Modi would be dedicating the latest version of the Arjun tank to the nation on February 14 in Chennai at the tank production facility in Avadi," officials told ANI

The tank has been fully designed and developed by the DRDO in close coordination with the Indian Army. The 118 tanks would be joining the fleet of the first batch of 124 Arjun tanks which have already been inducted into the Army and are deployed in the western desert along the Pakistan front.
...
Officials said the Army has reduced the number of tanks required for the formation of a tank regiment and that is the why the present order has six lesser tanks than the previous order for two regiments.
...
The DRDO has been developing the Arjun Mark 1A for quite some time now and the project was hastened by both Chief of Defence Staff Gen Bipin Rawat and DRDO chief Dr G Satheesh Reddy to increase the level of indigenous weapon systems in the armed forces.

The Arjun has been designed by the DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) and DRDO Chairman Satheesh Reddy will hand the first Arjun Mark 1A to Prime Minister Modi.

The tanks will be produced by the Ordnance Factory Board's (OFB) Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) Avadi and the first batch of five main battle tanks will be handed over to the army within two-and-a-half years of the signing of the contract.

mody · Post by **mody** » 13 Feb 2021 18:30

IA should reduce the number of tanks per regiment to 54 from 59. The 45 is supposed to be the fighting strength, and the balance are reserves. Earlier the total strength used to be 62. This was reduced to 59.
IA should reduce the number to 54 and order 200 Arjun MK1A. Along with the 124 MK1 (hopefully will get upgraded to 1A standard), it would mean a total of 324 tanks, good enough for 6 regiments. Even if the Arjun are only going to be used from south Rajasthan to South Punjab, a minimum strength of 6 regiments would be required. Would also force the pakis to base all their T80UD tanks in the same area to try and counter the beasts.
Hopefully the indigenous 1500 HP engine will be ready to enter production, along with the MK1As.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 13 Feb 2021 20:48

Pakis have already done so. What is the thought process behind this? Smaller groups for multiple locations?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 13 Feb 2021 21:13

This is in response to tsp buying the Chinese vt-4 tank. That tank outguns and out armours the T-90. I had written then when this was signed that IA will have to order Arjun to match them (which is heavier, more protected, and more powerful gun than VT-4). Only the heavy boys in the world can match these (Arjun being one). Expect the numbers to at least match the VT-4 numbers.

One angle to look at why wasn't IA ordering Arjun - The current T-90 was more than sufficient for what TSP had, half the price, crew familiarity, high number and easier to maintain - spares readily available). Even though T-90 is russian design, the content made in India (through ToT) is higher than Arjun.

Now IA has no choice, to face VT-4 it has to get Arjun or some western/Israeli tanks - Abraham, Merkava or T-14 (VAPORWARE). Arjun is much an easier choice.

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 14 Feb 2021 11:51

Tank you Pakistan and China!

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 14 Feb 2021 13:44

fanne wrote:This is in response to tsp buying the Chinese vt-4 tank. That tank outguns and out armours the T-90. I had written then when this was signed that IA will have to order Arjun to match them (which is heavier, more protected, and more powerful gun than VT-4). Only the heavy boys in the world can match these (Arjun being one). Expect the numbers to at least match the VT-4 numbers.

One angle to look at why wasn't IA ordering Arjun - The current T-90 was more than sufficient for what TSP had, half the price, crew familiarity, high number and easier to maintain - spares readily available). Even though T-90 is russian design, the content made in India (through ToT) is higher than Arjun.

Now IA has no choice, to face VT-4 it has to get Arjun or some western/Israeli tanks - Abraham, Merkava or T-14 (VAPORWARE). Arjun is much an easier choice.

This shall be great news. Arjun has caused lot of heartburn. Still remember visiting DefExpo in Delhi in 2009 and seeing Arjun up and close for the first time. The Army Officer explaining about Arjun was also apologetic while explaining how good suspension of Arjun was.

But all the same: Won't it represent failure of the army planners to foresee this situation and order Arjuns over the years to pre-empt the enemy. After all pre-empting enemy is also one way to be one up on the enemy. This may be moot point though.

If it takes NaPak ordering Chinese junk for IA to wake up and order Arjuns, so be it.

mody · Post by **mody** » 14 Feb 2021 17:56

The Chinese also deployed the Type 99 in Aksai Chin along with the Type 15 light tanks. FMBT should also be deployed in Ladakh. However, with the proliferation of Man portable ATMs and now loitering ammo and UAVs the tanks will have to come up with cheap hard kill and soft kill counter measures.
To counter the type 99 on the eastern and northern front and the VT-4 on the western front, more Arjun's will be required, or the FMBT will have to come soon.

The CVRDE chief has said that now almost all the building blocks are available in India, from the various type of sights (TONBO), to the engine, armour, suspension tech, ballistic and fire control computer etc. Only thing missing is the transmission tech and but I guess even that was mentioned as may be available for FMBT whenever that comes along.
Will the indigenous 1,500 HP engine be used for the 118 Arjun MK1A or will we still go for the old MTU-838 1,400 HP engine? No details about the same in the various news articles.

mody · Post by **mody** » 14 Feb 2021 18:00

jamwal wrote:Pakis have already done so. What is the thought process behind this? Smaller groups for multiple locations?

Smaller groups for multiple locations would definitely be required also as the IBG concept evolves. On the western front, large scale armour penetration can take place, but on the eastern and northern front, smaller groups will be required. In Ladakh currently we have deployed the tanks in 12 number squadrons at multiple locations. As part of the IBGs such squadrons might be more useful.

Also, LCH should be acquired in numbers exceeding 200 nos, along with the 28 Apache's and 72 ALH MK-IV Rudra.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Feb 2021 18:40

India teady to order upto 500 T-14 Armatas? News report IDN I think. If true, huge committment to counter PRC and Pak offensively. Further Arjun1A orders will definitely happen after this tranche is delivered.I think around 300+ is the estimated number for tranche-2. End of T-72/90 era, but they are the backbone of the armoured corps with around 3000+ upgraded T-72s and T-90s in service.They are still superior to current Paki and Chin MBTs. One old report had it that the intention of the IA is to have between 4000 to 4500 tanks to counter both the PLA and Pakis.

A cew hundred light tanks are expected too.either Sprut which has a similar 1l25 mm main gun to our MBTs, as there appears to be no other swift solution to the LT req.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 14 Feb 2021 19:00

NAG missile on NAMICA can be a good answer for Chinese tanks in near term before we induct light Tanks

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Feb 2021 19:58

No more phoren tanks.

More Arjun's till such time fmbt is not ready. Once fmbt is ready it enters service.

End of discussion.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Feb 2021 20:49

Don't shoot the messenger! Wait and watch what happens and then direct fire accordingly.